thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > >Being as how this has been an ongoing issue for six years one would think that people would realize that complaining on the forums isn't actually solving any problems.

> >

> > unless you're an ele and complain you've lost your top dps spot to a thief after holding it for years. How long did it take anet to "fix" ele after [this](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/51752/concerns-about-elementalist#latest "this")?

> >

> > >Also, again, DPS is only a slice of the picture. The tunnel vision focus on DPS prevents you from finding solutions that can work now, not reliant on ANET to buff something. The Necromancer forum is made up mostly of threads complaining about Necromancer. You can suggest changes to Augery of Death or Onslaught or anything else really and at the end of the day, nothing has changed for you. Or, you could actually listen to people who aren't myopically focused on DPS and actually find solutions that can work right now, without things being buffed.

> >

> > such as......

>

> Well, Elementalist players are still complaining. Your point would be valid if they were getting what they wanted but they are actually complaining. About this very subject. Right now. I can link you the threads if you want so you can read the ongoing conversation yourself. So at present, all you've done is reinforce what I have already stated, that complaining on the forums doesn't always net you the same results.

>

But something was done hence complaining in the forums has a chance of getting something done, just that it's anet and it'll prob be half-baked at best.

> Also, your situation is not exactly the same as theirs. Necromancer has DPS problems but can still do content. Their issue is that no one wants them on their teams in PUGs and the excuse of DPS is used. Elementalist is underpowered and actually can't perform. Necromancer, in the very least, can soak up more damage comparative to what Elementalist can soak up. So their issue isn't as artificially created as the Necromancer situation.

>

We are talking about raids here, why bring up other content? Especially since other content doesn't require or have people demanding you play full glass? As for "soaking up damage"; remind me how many evades a necro has vs an ele, and how much healing a nec can do vs an ele?

 

> All of which is sad because despite all the complaining I see on the forum I find it trivially easy to find folks to do stuff with if I wanted to run a Necromancer through a raid. However, because there is such a strict focus on DPS the other solutions that Necromancer players could make use of aren't being fully explored or utilized. I don't main Necromancer but when I want to I have no issue dusting off my Necromancer and using him in group content. Why? Because I don't let things like DPS hold me back and I develop the social network and ties that would allow me to play whatever I want to.

>

Other solutions that necromancer players could make use of such as..........

 

 

boon hate - mes and war do it better

condi spam - mirage, and fb do it beter

soft cc - ele and thief do it better

only niche a necro has is barrier spam and that's locked behind scourge.

 

 

 

> As a matter of fact, the leader of one my guilds mains Necromancer and he does all the content he wants in the game alongside the rest of the guild. It can be done. People have given their testimonial. Videos have been shown. Despite anything anyone says to help other people do the same thing that myself and others seem to be able to do the only retort that is given is "It has low DPS." So, it may have low DPS but I can take my Reaper into a raid if I want. I have no issue finding folks in my guild who will do ranked PvP content with me when I want to play my Necromancer.

>

> The choice is yours, complain on the forums and miss out or do something more productive that lets you do what you want to do. It's not an impossible thing. Difficult for some, to be sure, but not an impossible thing. There are folks who do not care about overall DPS level and focus more on having fun with their friends and let everyone enjoy what they enjoy most out of the game.

>

> I get to play what I want to play in the content I want to play. If you don't then that is more on you than just DPS mechanics.

Same can be said about ele yet there they still are.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

 

You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

 

It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

 

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

 

if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

>

> You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

>

> It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

>

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

>

> if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

 

you keep having a strong opinion about necro for some who dont play the profession(you said that earlier) and base on that i ll assume you have no idea what teaming up in pugs mean ( and also i started to think you dont play the same game as we do)

 

let me educate you about how to team up in bugs because by now i know for sure you know nothing about teaming up in general in raid

first for every abbreviation you see in the LFG it have a well known hidden definition for example

when they say in LFG

we need dudu or druid that mean they want a healer druid if you joined as a none healer druid or any other profession that have support/healing you ll get kicked

we need a tank chrono that mean a high toughness chrono if you joined as a dps or low toughness chrono you ll get kicked

we need DPS that mean any profession that break the DPS threshold which is 30k DPS less than that and you ll get kicked

 

i hope by now at least you have an idea about how to team up in pugs

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

> >

> > You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

> >

> > It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

> >

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

> >

> > if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

>

> you keep having a strong opinion about necro for some who dont play the profession(you said that earlier)

 

No, that's not what I said. As I've asked you before, if you are going to engage me in a discussion, you have to learn to comprehend what you are reading.

 

I don't need an education in how to team up in PUG's because I have already learned you can't reliably play how you want as a necro, or any other class, if you do that. IF you are trying to team up in PUGs, you have not learned how to play how you want on your Necro, or any other class. This is why you need to L2P if you want to team playing how you want on your necro or any other class.

 

_If you want to play how you want, you need to learn to play._

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Reaper does 30k dps

[Dace.8173]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> But something was done hence complaining in the forums has a chance of getting something done, just that it's anet and it'll prob be half-baked at best.

 

Elementalist is still an underpowered profession. It still has the same problems that people have been complaining about for some time now. Go into the forum and read the commentary of the actual players and you will see that they still are facing the same issue. They have an active 15 page thread with 573 posts. You can make your claim all you want but you are categorically wrong as per the Elementalist players themselves. They don't prove your point. To disregard what is being discussed there and advance the idea that something is done would be for me to say "you got a buff recently so you are fine and there is nothing wrong." That's what you are currently doing.

 

Elementalist disprove you, hands down. Read it all for yourself. I have. I can't take you seriously if you are going to push this point due to the sheer evidence against you on this.

 

> We are talking about raids here, why bring up other content? Especially since other content doesn't require or have people demanding you play full glass? As for "soaking up damage"; remind me how many evades a necro has vs an ele, and how much healing a nec can do vs an ele?

>

 

Because the OP was discussing PvE content which includes more than just Raids. Also, you brought up Elementalist in this discussion so you can't even remotely chastize anyone for bringing in additional information. If you want to stick to just Raids then you should do so.

 

As for health, evades blah blah blah. Necromancer has more health than Elementalist. Hands down. This is a fact that can't be disputed. A Necromancer can take damage that an Elementalist can not. Elementalist does have more evade but if they didn't have more evade they wouldn't even remotely survive. It's a matter of understanding how these mechanics work. A Necromancer that is hit by a burst has a stronger chance of surviving it than an Elementalist. However, one of the core problems Elementalist faces is that while it has more evade and better heals it lacks true pressure. Evades and heals only get you so far. Lacking the ability to apply some level of pressure for the kill means you're just a moving target and that's it. Not a problem that Necromancer has, at least not to the level that Elementalist does. If Weaver could put out the same level of damage as Reaper with the same level of sustain to direct damage you would have a point about their heals and evades. However, it cannot. Without those evades and heals the professions would just fold after the first few attacks in a way that Necromancer and Reaper don't even remotely get close to.

 

As one Elementalist player recently put it, [they used to be glass cannons and now they're just a glass target](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/753000/#Comment_753000 "they used to be glass cannons and now they're just a glass target").

 

You are not gonna win the comparison with Elementalist battle. There is too much against you on this and I'm very familiar with it since I regularly engage in their discussions.

 

> Other solutions that necromancer players could make use of such as..........

>

 

> boon hate - mes and war do it better

> condi spam - mirage, and fb do it beter

> soft cc - ele and thief do it better

> only niche a necro has is barrier spam and that's locked behind scourge.

>

 

 

Sure, whatever. Despite what you oddly put in a spoiler tag I can still take my Reaper into Raids if I want to. I opt to focus on what I can do as opposed to what I can't do. There is more to end game content in this game than what other professions can do or do better. So long as you focus on what other people do better than you then you won't get to play your favorite profession. So long as you focus on a myopic field of issues such as DPS you won't get to play your favorite profession.

 

I don't main Necromancer but if I wanted to go Raiding tonight I could.

 

> Same can be said about ele yet there they still are.

>

 

Is there a point at the end of this statement?

 

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> I've never heard of such a WRONG statement before!

 

Have you've been reading the other posts in this thread? Still, my statement isn't wrong. I can link the threads. The nature of Elementalist is different. Elementalist players are in fact complaining. Complaining on the forums doesn't always get results. Necromancer does have DPS problems. Not sure why you would say that is a wrong statement. I also find it odd that you would claim that I am wrong about Necromancers not being wanted in end game content. Elementalist simply cannot soak up as much damage as Necromancer can so if you are going to claim that is wrong then I don't think you understand how Elementalist works.

 

> You know who is literally (proven by actual numbers) THE best capable healer in the game? With the best HPS in the game ... literally! I'm not even going to answer it, look it up and you'll find it.

 

Rhetorical statement? At any rate, I'm not invested in this enough to go hunt down whatever information you think I don't have as I am confident that I know what I am talking about. Telling me to go look something up does not actually counter my statement. It is just a lazy response. Make a point but don't expect me to do the work of making your point for you.

 

> Next to that it is still the 2nd best DPS profession in the game almost only a few percent behind thief. And it's arguably THE best cleave in the game!

 

Relevant to the point I made how? Recent nerfs brought Elementalist in line with its DPS but it is still underpowered comperative to the profession as a whole. This is the problem with focusing on a single stat. You don't see the big picture and make inane points. Still, go talk to the Elementalist players yourself. You are free to think otherwise but if that's the case then I can easily dismiss your complaints too.

 

Everyone's issues should be taken seriously.

 

> If something comes close to real artificial bullcrap that they're not even capable to perform anymore, it's exactly these kind of complaints from the Ele community. And I know, cause there are still loads of Eles in my statics that are easily capable of doing CM's/Raids/T4 etc. and will **ALWAYS** outdps _any_ Necro out there!

 

Was there a point here?

 

> But back to the healing capabilities of the Ele (Tempest): if Teapot is going to post a really smooth no shrooms Sloth video with 2 healing tempests (he already did with only healing tempests (10), but that takes incredibly long, as you can imagine :) ), and starts with: "forget about the thinking man Scourge, GOD really exists and it will appear before your own eyes in the form of a .... Tempest": everyone is going to play Healing Tempest, all of the sudden. If something is _really_ an L2P issue, it's that of the Ele.

 

Focusing on the healing of Elementalist is as about as useless as just focusing on the DPS of Necromancer. I tend to look at the big picture. Are there L2P issues with some of the Elementalist complaints? Sure. This doesn't mean that some of the Necromancer complaints in this thread aren't L2P issues. The issues of Elementalist do not validate your complaint. They are two separate things.

 

> And that they're not allowed to play with PUGs is another bs story, they're in the PvE endgame together with Mesmer and Warrior greeted with open arms still, up to the point they actually _have_ to perform (starting the raid/fractal), in where you will find that these 6 years of absolute DPS dominance have attracted quite a few genuinely bad Ele players out there. Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

 

Who made the claim that they aren't allowed to play in PUGs? I didn't. That's a strawman right there. I suggest you go read the Elementalist threads to understand the nature of their complaints as you seem to be missing their point and you certainly missed the point I made about them.

 

Still, all things considered, I don't really get into the Who sucks the most Olympic games. I prefer to address the individual issues that they make on their own merits, not in regards to what other people have or don't have in this game. It's the same way I engage with the Necromancer complaints. I don't worry about who can and cannot do what because it isn't an important point. If you're concerned with what other factions can do then you'll never get what you want out of this game.

 

As I said, I can Raid as my Reaper if I want to. If you can't that's on you. Instead of complaining on the forums about it I decided to find ways to do the content I want with the professions I want, despite their individual power levels.

 

Necromancer has issues. However, if you can't get on a team to do end game content then that's on you and not the profession because it is possible. Necromancer's problems are not so bad that they cannot complete or do the material in question. I have sympathy for the fact that Necromancer could be better and that it has flaws that hold it back from its true potential. I have no sympathy for folks who would rather complain on the forum in the hopes that after six years it actually does something rather than finding ways to do what they want to do.

 

I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. Anyone can if they have the right mindset.

 

 

[zencow.3651]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Eles have their issues too. I guess its true what they say, the grass is always greener on the other side.

>

> Have you played ele? they have their own issues as well, such as survivability. Eles are now on the forum complaining that if they go towards healing, they are locked out of dps for a long time, and they are forced to do so because of low hp and needing to survive longer, and they have issues with surviving in spvp due to the low hp, and having trouble landing hits.

>

> I wont say necros don't have their issues, but eles and necromancers are completely different in play style.Eles have loads of abilities to heal itself, and add boons, but are very squishy.

>

 

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

 

I find Ele and Necro to be complete polar-opposites in the way they are balanced and they both have valid reasons to complain.

 

Eles have pretty bad power coefficients so they are forced to take a certain amount of damage multiplying traits to deal reasonable amounts of damage. In this design they function poorly in open-world HoT and PoF content where they have to trait for survivability. In instanced PVE environments, however, they are able to take as many as they want without regard to survivability since they could be babysat. However, with the additions to more damage multipliers across the board, the DPS gap afforded to the ele is narrowing in PvE and hence the Eles are complaining because their damage has also been gutted WITH the multipliers so unless they literally take them all, their damage is wet noodle.

 

Necros have very decent damage coefficients and are very self-sufficient in open-world and PvP environments. However, their lack of damage multipliers places a cap on their potential DPS where that self-sufficiency isn't required and they don't have a myriad of heavy damage utilities. Some might even say they are too one-dimensional.

 

The affordances of design can be seen in how the play patterns between PvE and PvP compare. Weavers consign themselves to dumping every trait and utility, from Fire/Air to Water/Arcana to survive in PvP because they have no room to trait for damage and accept their fate as a side-noder troll, relying on the more stat efficient condi/ burning investment to kill or just stalemate to contest a point. Reaper, on the other hand, remains pretty much the same with the same Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper traits and have pretty much everything they need to survive already between core mechanic/stat and utility choice and is one of the most fearsome damage source in teamfights while still being able to hold their own on side-nodes against most builds.

[zencow.3651]

The prejudices in PuGs happen because unhealthy stereotypes have arisen.

When they see Weaver, they are more likely to assume the player is a tryhard that knows what they are doing. Until they prove otherwise.

On the other hand, Reapers tend to be characterised like the bearbow ranger of old consisting of lazy players taking the easy way out, using Death Shroud to tank while under 90% health and not benefiting for scholars, then fully draining it losing more damage from not maintaining Strength of Undeath.

 

These stereotype then creates anti-social behaviours that worsens things.

You form a LFG asking for DPS then a Scourge joins with big fat barriers and no DPS because he got too desperate of waiting and hopes he doesn't get noticed.

[Swamurabi.7890]

Maybe the Necro community should ask Gaile to start a "Concerns for Necro" thread

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> Maybe the Necro community should ask Gaile to start a "Concerns for Necro" thread

 

To have such attention, you need to repeatedly open threads about how bad the profession is in the sPvP subforum. The necromancer having a strong niche in this gamemode make such threads irelevant... Worse, If we did it, ANet would probably flood us with more PvP tools when it's the fact that our tools are to focused on PvP that the necromancer can't reach the average level of efficiency in PvE.

 

Also, I don't think that the "concern for elementalist" thread led to any good change to the profession since it's been created. At best, this thread act like the mesmer's skill _Decoy_ at the moment. _Break stun_ -> "Don't go elsewhere! We are there, we listen to you!" -> _stealth mode activated_.

[Dace.8173]

> @"zencow.3651" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Eles have their issues too. I guess its true what they say, the grass is always greener on the other side.

> >

> > Have you played ele? they have their own issues as well, such as survivability. Eles are now on the forum complaining that if they go towards healing, they are locked out of dps for a long time, and they are forced to do so because of low hp and needing to survive longer, and they have issues with surviving in spvp due to the low hp, and having trouble landing hits.

> >

> > I wont say necros don't have their issues, but eles and necromancers are completely different in play style.Eles have loads of abilities to heal itself, and add boons, but are very squishy.

> >

>

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

>

> I find Ele and Necro to be complete polar-opposites in the way they are balanced and they both have valid reasons to complain.

>

> Eles have pretty bad power coefficients so they are forced to take a certain amount of damage multiplying traits to deal reasonable amounts of damage. In this design they function poorly in open-world HoT and PoF content where they have to trait for survivability. In instanced PVE environments, however, they are able to take as many as they want without regard to survivability since they could be babysat. However, with the additions to more damage multipliers across the board, the DPS gap afforded to the ele is narrowing in PvE and hence the Eles are complaining because their damage has also been gutted WITH the multipliers so unless they literally take them all, their damage is wet noodle.

>

> Necros have very decent damage coefficients and are very self-sufficient in open-world and PvP environments. However, their lack of damage multipliers places a cap on their potential DPS where that self-sufficiency isn't required and they don't have a myriad of heavy damage utilities. Some might even say they are too one-dimensional.

>

> The affordances of design can be seen in how the play patterns between PvE and PvP compare. Weavers consign themselves to dumping every trait and utility, from Fire/Air to Water/Arcana to survive in PvP because they have no room to trait for damage and accept their fate as a side-noder troll, relying on the more stat efficient condi/ burning investment to kill or just stalemate to contest a point. Reaper, on the other hand, remains pretty much the same with the same Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper traits and have pretty much everything they need to survive already between core mechanic/stat and utility choice and is one of the most fearsome damage source in teamfights while still being able to hold their own on side-nodes against most builds.

 

Very solid breakdown. I also agree with your comments on the problems present in the PUG community.

 

> @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> Maybe the Necro community should ask Gaile to start a "Concerns for Necro" thread

 

That wouldn't actually solve anything. Don't mistake the fact that an ANet employee answered a question or two there to mean it had a measurable effect on changes to Elementalist. Considering the current persistent problems that thread has basically condensed the complaints to one place as opposed to them being all over the map. It's not like ANet isn't aware of Necromancer concerns. They've addressed Necromancer players on several instances on the forums, such as when they explained why Abrasive Grit took a hit.

 

 

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > But something was done hence complaining in the forums has a chance of getting something done, just that it's anet and it'll prob be half-baked at best.

>

> Elementalist is still an underpowered profession. It still has the same problems that people have been complaining about for some time now. Go into the forum and read the commentary of the actual players and you will see that they still are facing the same issue. They have an active 15 page thread with 573 posts. You can make your claim all you want but you are categorically wrong as per the Elementalist players themselves. They don't prove your point. To disregard what is being discussed there and advance the idea that something is done would be for me to say "you got a buff recently so you are fine and there is nothing wrong." That's what you are currently doing.

>

how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done.

> Elementalist disprove you, hands down. Read it all for yourself. I have. I can't take you seriously if you are going to push this point due to the sheer evidence against you on this.

>

Disproves me of what? That complaints here do get attention now and again, and that having something done to try to address them is better than nothing?

 

> > We are talking about raids here, why bring up other content? Especially since other content doesn't require or have people demanding you play full glass? As for "soaking up damage"; remind me how many evades a necro has vs an ele, and how much healing a nec can do vs an ele?

> >

>

> Because the OP was discussing PvE content which includes more than just Raids. Also, you brought up Elementalist in this discussion so you can't even remotely chastise anyone for bringing in additional information. If you want to stick to just Raids then you should do so.

True enough, I should just stick to talking about raiding, so I will. p.s. that build in that vid can work in pve open world as well and is about as facerolly.

 

> As for health, evades blah blah blah. Necromancer has more health than Elementalist. Hands down. This is a fact that can't be disputed. A Necromancer can take damage that an Elementalist can not. Elementalist does have more evade but if they didn't have more evade they wouldn't even remotely survive. It's a matter of understanding how these mechanics work. A Necromancer that is hit by a burst has a stronger chance of surviving it than an Elementalist. However, one of the core problems Elementalist faces is that while it has more evade and better heals it lacks true pressure. Evades and heals only get you so far. Lacking the ability to apply some level of pressure for the kill means you're just a moving target and that's it. Not a problem that Necromancer has, at least not to the level that Elementalist does. If Weaver could put out the same level of damage as Reaper with the same level of sustain to direct damage you would have a point about their heals and evades. However, it cannot. Without those evades and heals the professions would just fold after the first few attacks in a way that Necromancer and Reaper don't even remotely get close to.

>

Whats the point of more hp when a failed mechanic will 1 shot you regardless, or when most of the damage can easily be sidestepped to avoid, or healed back by a regen? The fact that you're getting hit means that you're either face tanking for no reason, or out of place.

 

> As one Elementalist player recently put it, [they used to be glass cannons and now they're just a glass target](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/753000/#Comment_753000 "they used to be glass cannons and now they're just a glass target").

>

> You are not gonna win the comparison with Elementalist battle. There is too much against you on this and I'm very familiar with it since I regularly engage in their discussions.

Just glass? Last checked they're still top of the pecking order for large hitboxes such as gors and kc, and beat out thief on any boss with revealed such as gors, xera, kc, deimos, and sam.

>

> > Other solutions that necromancer players could make use of such as..........

> >

 

> > boon hate - mes and war do it better

> > condi spam - mirage, and fb do it beter

> > soft cc - ele and thief do it better

> > only niche a necro has is barrier spam and that's locked behind scourge.

> >

 

>

> Sure, whatever. Despite what you oddly put in a spoiler tag I can still take my Reaper into Raids if I want to. I opt to focus on what I can do as opposed to what I can't do. There is more to end game content in this game than what other professions can do or do better. So long as you focus on what other people do better than you then you won't get to play your favorite profession. So long as you focus on a myopic field of issues such as DPS you won't get to play your favorite profession.

>

There's 3 roles to fill in raid: Buffer, buffer that moves the boss, and dps. Where does the reaper fit there? Also you still haven't answered what unique thing a reaper offers outside of dps.

> I don't main Necromancer but if I wanted to go Raiding tonight I could.

>

> > Same can be said about ele yet there they still are.

> >

>

> Is there a point at the end of this statement?

>

You went past it

[Axl.8924]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> > Maybe the Necro community should ask Gaile to start a "Concerns for Necro" thread

>

> To have such attention, you need to repeatedly open threads about how bad the profession is in the sPvP subforum. The necromancer having a strong niche in this gamemode make such threads irelevant... Worse, If we did it, ANet would probably flood us with more PvP tools when it's the fact that our tools are to focused on PvP that the necromancer can't reach the average level of efficiency in PvE.

>

> Also, I don't think that the "concern for elementalist" thread led to any good change to the profession since it's been created. At best, this thread act like the mesmer's skill _Decoy_ at the moment. _Break stun_ -> "Don't go elsewhere! We are there, we listen to you!" -> _stealth mode activated_.

 

That was what I was complaining about actually in my lsat few posts:Necromancer is too pvp centric, and because of pvp, it suffers in pve. because of boon corrupt effecting pve raids negatively, and our tools being very much focused on WVW.

 

Its like go WVW and fractals, or go home.

 

Im starting to think maybe giving up GW2 was for the best. Anet seems unable to balance buffers and debuffers in a way where they have a meaningful position, but aren't totally faceroll.

 

 

Things like debuffs not working on bosses kinda goes against the point of even having a debuffer class. At this rate, you might as well just delete necromancer and call it a day since the class has little to no function in pve.

 

Maybe eq works because its only pve, but how do you explain the success in wow? I mean they got debuffers who are useful in pvp and they have dot classes, how come it cannot work here? is it because there is no holy trinity? that's all I can come up with.

 

 

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > > > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > > > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

> > >

> > > You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

> > >

> > > It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

> > >

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

> > >

> > > if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

> >

> > you keep having a strong opinion about necro for some who dont play the profession(you said that earlier)

>

> No, that's not what I said. As I've asked you before, if you are going to engage me in a discussion, you have to learn to comprehend what you are reading.

>

> I don't need an education in how to team up in PUG's because I have already learned you can't reliably play how you want as a necro, or any other class, if you do that. IF you are trying to team up in PUGs, you have not learned how to play how you want on your Necro, or any other class. This is why you need to L2P if you want to team playing how you want on your necro or any other class.

>

> _If you want to play how you want, you need to learn to play._

 

again pathetic with this play as you want nonsense

their is no something called play as you want in raid

to achievement maximum performance for your specific role (dps,healer,support or tank) you need to play with predefined build , stat , utility and rotation to ensure fast and safe clear of the encounters

and when doing all that and still achieve lower than the minimal requirement for a pug group you know that your profession has failed you

and telling people to settle for a an under-performing profession is unfair for the everyone and even in static group when you do lowest dps is just unfair and you'll feel you are getting carried even if you do your job perfectly

[phs.6089]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > then please tell me why people team up with a necro if its not dps then WHAT ??????

>

> This mentality is what blocks you. What makes you think I would ever team with people that need a reason for me to play a specific class in the first place? Those people exist, you will just have a very hard time meeting them in a random PUG. You are going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on your necro. You're going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on ANY class for that matter.

>

> But, aside from that, there is a reason people want necro .... and it's not DPS.

>

>

 

Nobody wants that beyond 99/100CMs.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > To have such attention, you need to repeatedly open threads about how bad the profession is in the sPvP subforum. The necromancer having a strong niche in this gamemode make such threads irelevant... Worse, If we did it, ANet would probably flood us with more PvP tools when it's the fact that our tools are to focused on PvP that the necromancer can't reach the average level of efficiency in PvE.

> >

> > Also, I don't think that the "concern for elementalist" thread led to any good change to the profession since it's been created. At best, this thread act like the mesmer's skill _Decoy_ at the moment. _Break stun_ -> "Don't go elsewhere! We are there, we listen to you!" -> _stealth mode activated_.

>

> That was what I was complaining about actually in my lsat few posts:Necromancer is too pvp centric, and because of pvp, it suffers in pve. because of boon corrupt effecting pve raids negatively, and our tools being very much focused on WVW.

>

> Its like go WVW and fractals, or go home.

 

It can't be helped, ANet have had an issue with boons going out of controle in PvP/WvW for years now. They _need_ the offensive boon hate hidden in the necromancer's design to counter it. At the same time, mobs aren't designed to rely on boons like they used to be in GW1 and "boss" encounters where 10 or more players bash onto a single mob also weaken significantly the ability. By design, the necromancer's core tools that ANet push forward for the sake of PvP just aren't a fit for PvE.

 

There is only one solution for the necromancer to have some hope for PvE and it's an e-spec that make him close to what other do instead of an e-spec that push him further into it's PvP tools. That said, nobody know what specific PvP issue will need to be fixed by the use of an odd design of the necromancer next time.

 

Edit: lol, I just imagined ANet creating a necromancer's e-spec based on projectile hate to nerf the shipwar in WvW. Players would be like: "But it's not in our area of expertise..." And ANet be like: "As necromancers you are the masters of decay and as such with your power you suit this role."

[Axl.8924]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > To have such attention, you need to repeatedly open threads about how bad the profession is in the sPvP subforum. The necromancer having a strong niche in this gamemode make such threads irelevant... Worse, If we did it, ANet would probably flood us with more PvP tools when it's the fact that our tools are to focused on PvP that the necromancer can't reach the average level of efficiency in PvE.

> > >

> > > Also, I don't think that the "concern for elementalist" thread led to any good change to the profession since it's been created. At best, this thread act like the mesmer's skill _Decoy_ at the moment. _Break stun_ -> "Don't go elsewhere! We are there, we listen to you!" -> _stealth mode activated_.

> >

> > That was what I was complaining about actually in my lsat few posts:Necromancer is too pvp centric, and because of pvp, it suffers in pve. because of boon corrupt effecting pve raids negatively, and our tools being very much focused on WVW.

> >

> > Its like go WVW and fractals, or go home.

>

> It can't be helped, ANet have had an issue with boons going out of controle in PvP/WvW for years now. They _need_ the offensive boon hate hidden in the necromancer's design to counter it. At the same time, mobs aren't designed to rely on boons like they used to be in GW1 and "boss" encounters where 10 or more players bash onto a single mob also weaken significantly the ability. By design, the necromancer's core tools that ANet push forward for the sake of PvP just aren't a fit for PvE.

>

> There is only one solution for the necromancer to have some hope for PvE and it's an e-spec that make him close to what other do instead of an e-spec that push him further into it's PvP tools. That said, nobody know what specific PvP issue will need to be fixed by the use of an odd design of the necromancer next time.

 

The problem with condis is, it cannot function in a pvp environment.

 

The insta burs we used to have? its too powerful in pvp, but if it doesn't insta burs you down in gw2, you will get 100% destroyed by burst classes. In other mmos such as everquest, you have other offensive tools such as snare and a mana bar and a ability to slowly recover mana, and your ability to cast depends on that mana bar.

 

Shamans on the other hand are far more about debuffing than necromancers, and have stuff like slowing your attacks down, lowering your stats and stuff like that.

 

 

Only way I can see necromancer being able to function in a pvp setting, is to give them these types of tools in stronger amounts.The ability to control enemies more strongly while also being slow would balance it out in such a way that they could slow down cripple and debuff people.Maybe something like a curse like from wow that silences people from warlocks? Or for instance buffing fear so it actually works better, while also nerfing the counters to it, so its not so overly countered.

 

I know people hate fear because you lose control, but without these said tools, necromancer simply cannot function, and it will always be relegated to a punching bag unless babysat 24/7 by a firebrand, and that's IF you don't have 3 to 4 people in a row all focusing you.

 

You could also keep the weakness to being focused and being ultra slow on necro, so that he has to depend on some help from other classes.It balances out that necro has tools for controls but not tools to get away.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> The problem with condis is, it cannot function in a pvp environment.

>

> The insta burs we used to have? its too powerful in pvp, but if it doesn't insta burs you down in gw2, you will get 100% destroyed by burst classes. In other mmos such as everquest, you have other offensive tools such as snare and a mana bar and a ability to slowly recover mana, and your ability to cast depends on that mana bar.

>

> Shamans on the other hand are far more about debuffing than necromancers, and have stuff like slowing your attacks down, lowering your stats and stuff like that.

>

>

> Only way I can see necromancer being able to function in a pvp setting, is to give them these types of tools in stronger amounts.The ability to control enemies more strongly while also being slow would balance it out in such a way that they could slow down cripple and debuff people.Maybe something like a curse like from wow that silences people from warlocks? Or for instance buffing fear so it actually works better, while also nerfing the counters to it, so its not so overly countered.

>

> I know people hate fear because you lose control, but without these said tools, necromancer simply cannot function, and it will always be relegated to a punching bag unless babysat 24/7 by a firebrand, and that's IF you don't have 3 to 4 people in a row all focusing you.

>

> You could also keep the weakness to being focused and being ultra slow on necro, so that he has to depend on some help from other classes.It balances out that necro has tools for controls but not tools to get away.

>

 

You write PvP everywhere, are you thinking PvP or do you mean PvE? 'Cause in a lot of way it make no sense except for the part about fear.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > The problem with condis is, it cannot function in a pvp environment.

> >

> > The insta burs we used to have? its too powerful in pvp, but if it doesn't insta burs you down in gw2, you will get 100% destroyed by burst classes. In other mmos such as everquest, you have other offensive tools such as snare and a mana bar and a ability to slowly recover mana, and your ability to cast depends on that mana bar.

> >

> > Shamans on the other hand are far more about debuffing than necromancers, and have stuff like slowing your attacks down, lowering your stats and stuff like that.

> >

> >

> > Only way I can see necromancer being able to function in a pvp setting, is to give them these types of tools in stronger amounts.The ability to control enemies more strongly while also being slow would balance it out in such a way that they could slow down cripple and debuff people.Maybe something like a curse like from wow that silences people from warlocks? Or for instance buffing fear so it actually works better, while also nerfing the counters to it, so its not so overly countered.

> >

> > I know people hate fear because you lose control, but without these said tools, necromancer simply cannot function, and it will always be relegated to a punching bag unless babysat 24/7 by a firebrand, and that's IF you don't have 3 to 4 people in a row all focusing you.

> >

> > You could also keep the weakness to being focused and being ultra slow on necro, so that he has to depend on some help from other classes.It balances out that necro has tools for controls but not tools to get away.

> >

>

> You write PvP everywhere, are you thinking PvP or do you mean PvE? 'Cause in a lot of way it make no sense except for the part about fear.

 

In this case I was talking about necro issues in pvp and WVW. Although I can understand why, its disjointed I guess.

 

I also think damage wise, burst is needed in condi for pve for it to work. You would need a huge amount of equivalent of expertise for long durations for the damage to actually last. Thing is: I think condi problems in pve and pvp and WVW overlap each other.

 

In pve I also think condis would be pretty useless on a lot of encounters if it did very little damage over a long period of time on most enemies, because it would be wind up damage like in WOW with demonlogy, and people would be complaining about the damage. It would be super effective on bosses, but less so on regular enemies who die so fast to burst. I also think bosses on easier difficulties would probably also die too fast for the damage to even be noticed much.Sometimes on the tier 2 difficulty, bosses die so fast, that it takes but a few mins. It depends on the boss, but the old ones die very very fast. The newer ones are different, because they move around and some of them take off all damage and become immune for a little bit.

 

You would probably also need to look at each class to see how much condis they can spew out, and in what amounts, because some have more reliable ways to spew condis than others.

 

 

Thieves I think are good at spewing out poison, but not sure about the other ones.

 

Scourge was nerfed, so not sure now how reliable it is in spewing out burning and torment.I know some other classes can do a lot better with burning.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Scourge was nerfed, so not sure now how reliable it is in spewing out burning and torment.I know some other classes can do a lot better with burning.

>

 

Scourge issue was/is how shades work. With the way shades work every single nerf were necessary, and in a way more nerfs could be justified. This is what happen when a mechanism flawed by design is balanced through number change and ICD. That said, in regard of outgoing damage, the scourge is most likely balanced in 2 out of 3 gamemode now.

 

Scourge's maximum outgoing torment depend on boon corruption so it's natural for the specialization to fall short, in regard of dps efficiency, in PvE. Especially when you need to time your shade skills based on 2 ICD to maximize your outgoing burn. Scourge's condi dps have become a gaz engine, it's probably safer to look at scourge's power dps instead when it come to raids but scourge power dps will face discrimination due to the condi image of the spec. I think that if somehow they manage to push core into a decent power damage state (so that P.reaper end up in the average dps spot) or/and if they just push up a bit some core weapon skills damage, P. scourge might become very competitive in raid.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > > > > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > > > > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

> > > >

> > > > You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

> > > >

> > > > It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

> > > >

> > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

> > > >

> > > > if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

> > >

> > > you keep having a strong opinion about necro for some who dont play the profession(you said that earlier)

> >

> > No, that's not what I said. As I've asked you before, if you are going to engage me in a discussion, you have to learn to comprehend what you are reading.

> >

> > I don't need an education in how to team up in PUG's because I have already learned you can't reliably play how you want as a necro, or any other class, if you do that. IF you are trying to team up in PUGs, you have not learned how to play how you want on your Necro, or any other class. This is why you need to L2P if you want to team playing how you want on your necro or any other class.

> >

> > _If you want to play how you want, you need to learn to play._

>

> again pathetic with this play as you want nonsense

> their is no something called play as you want in raid

 

You poor creature. You have been fed the meta kool-aid and you don't even know it. You couldn't be more wrong. You don't even realize you've adopted the very thinking that other people apply to you that results your problems. You don't even realize that YOU want to play as you want.

 

You must make a choice: if you want to achieve maximum performance, then you give up your freedom to choose what builds/classes you play, but have a greater chance to raid. If you want to play whatever you want, you can have freedom, but you have to learn how to get teams doing it.

 

Either choice is available to you in this game but be assured, you can't have your freedom AND teaming options unless you learn how to do so. Good Luck to you.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > then please tell me why people team up with a necro if its not dps then WHAT ??????

> >

> > This mentality is what blocks you. What makes you think I would ever team with people that need a reason for me to play a specific class in the first place? Those people exist, you will just have a very hard time meeting them in a random PUG. You are going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on your necro. You're going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on ANY class for that matter.

> >

> > But, aside from that, there is a reason people want necro .... and it's not DPS.

> >

> >

>

> Nobody wants that beyond 99/100CMs.

 

Maybe the nobodies you play with. The nobodies I play with have no problem with it; even ask for it depending on the situation.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > > Except every major patch power reaper has been getting pve dps buffs since pof release. Anet is trying to push reaper to a competitive power dps class in pve, they just suck at it. This is due to lack of damage multipliers (notice last patch we got another damage multiplier) and lackluster utilities (top dps specs use 3 minions that auto attack and a signet that never is proced). These are problems that needs to be addressed.

> > > > > > So what roles are left? Healing? Druid has that cover, boons? Chrono. Giimicks, yeah we have plenty of those until they are nerfed into the ground.

> > > > > > And before calling me out for just complaining and not playing the game, come meet me in game and show me your cm titles. I got mine, do you have yours?

> > > > >

> > > > > You're so fixated on roles and 'things'; that only matters if you team with people that think that way. If you learn to play with people that play how you and they want to play, you will get teams REGARDLESS of these barriers people that care about 'things' create.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's already been said; it's your choice to learn to play and have fun ... or do this on the forum

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > Whereas the usual Necro player has to socialize their way into the raids/CMs, with their fair share of received kicks _before_ the CM/Raid even starts, and then really **have** to be good, because all eyes are on them. Bad DPS: kick; Lacking CC: kick; Not fast enough: kick; Smells: kick, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > if you want to PUG with meta players, yup. That's why you have to learn how to get teams with people that aren't going to refuse you for what you don't have and take you for what you do.

> > > >

> > > > you keep having a strong opinion about necro for some who dont play the profession(you said that earlier)

> > >

> > > No, that's not what I said. As I've asked you before, if you are going to engage me in a discussion, you have to learn to comprehend what you are reading.

> > >

> > > I don't need an education in how to team up in PUG's because I have already learned you can't reliably play how you want as a necro, or any other class, if you do that. IF you are trying to team up in PUGs, you have not learned how to play how you want on your Necro, or any other class. This is why you need to L2P if you want to team playing how you want on your necro or any other class.

> > >

> > > _If you want to play how you want, you need to learn to play._

> >

> > again pathetic with this play as you want nonsense

> > their is no something called play as you want in raid

> > to achievement maximum performance for your specific role

>

> You poor creature. You have been fed the meta kool-aid and you don't even know it. You couldn't be more wrong.

>

> You must make a choice: if you want to achieve maximum performance, then you give up your freedom to choose what builds/classes you play, but have a greater chance to raid. If you want to play whatever you want, you can have freedom, but you have to learn how to get teams doing it.

>

> Either choice is available to you in this game but be assured, you can't have your freedom AND teaming options unless you learn how to do so. Good Luck to you.

 

again teaming up nonsense

again pathetic respond because i never said a thing about meta and i dont play meta please at least try to read or learn to read dont put words in my mouth that i never said go and read all my responds in this thread that i made and you will learn that i never said meta not even once till now because of your pathetic reading talents

i dont need meta or website to tell me how to play the profession that i spend years play and after all that time i know the good and bad about the profession and how the game and the community treat that profession so i know how to achieve the maximum performance(see not meta) for my specific role dps , healer , support or tank and i know the best build , stat , utility and rotation for each of the game mods

and what i mean by a predefined build is as a necro you'll never achieve the best CDPS without curses a you'll never achieve the best PDPS without spite and you'll never achieve the best heal without blood magic

but now i am interested to know how you play necro what are the build , stat , utility and rotation that you use for raid may be players like you who gave us the reputation of having 8k DPS because you want to play how you want and not play to be good and productive


[Dace.8173]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done.

 

It's very simple, something I've said numerous time but for some reason people ignore. I don't disagree that Necromancer has some severe problems that need addressing. I have said as much on several occasion (and multiple times in this thread). I have discussed at length with various Necromancer players on what could be done and what I feel the core problem and issue is. I have discussed what mechanical changes I feel would yield better results. I don't disregard the concerns of Necromancer players nor do I advance the idea that everything is fine. Where I differ, with many of them, is on what can be done to solve the problem. When people complain about not being able to get on teams to do endgame content I offer up suggestions for how to resolve that problem that doesn't require you to rely on ANet to offer a buff or fix. I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. You could too if you put in the work to do so.

 

Also, there's a world of difference between voicing your concerns and simply complaining and rejecting anything that contradicts a myopic focus on details that don't matter nearly as much as people indicate. People should voice their concerns. Complaining, though, gets nothing done. It becomes so much white noise that it is ignorable. Threads that are constructive in nature, that are discussing actual fixes and solutions, are the kind of things a company pays attention to. This is the kind of thread a company ignores. A discussion on the weakness of the Shroud mechanic and how it holds Necromancer back in many ways can lead to ideas that could be implemented in future material. Complaining that you can't get into Raids and people kick you and you need more and more and more buffs leads nowhere. In part because Arena Net knows that the issue isn't completely created by lower DPS.

 

> Disproves me of what? That complaints here do get attention now and again, and that having something done to try to address them is better than nothing?

 

Yes. If you read some of those Elementalist threads you'll see that Arena Net employees engage with constructive critique of the situation. Not complaining. You can either complain and be ignored or offer up constructive critiques that understand the nature of the situation. Saying over and over again that you need buffs aren't going to get you anywhere as everyone cries for more buffs and it ignores some of the core and central issues that hold Necromancer back in PvE end game. Beating the DPS drum over and over again isn't going to get you anywhere because it ignores the fact that DPS isn't always the thing that holds Necromancer back and it pretty much ignores other, more productive, fixes.

 

> Whats the point of more hp when a failed mechanic will 1 shot you regardless, or when most of the damage can easily be sidestepped to avoid, or healed back by a regen? The fact that you're getting hit means that you're either face tanking for no reason, or out of place.

 

More HP means you have a chance of surviving being one shotted. Not everyone is equally hindered by being one shotted. One shotting a Warrior is harder than one-shotting an Elementalist in part due to the level of damage mitigation and soak they have. One shotting a Necromancer can be harder than one-shotting an Elementalist depending on the build being used, i.e. Unholy Sanctuary may be triggered in a one-shot and offers Necromancer a second chance that an Elementalist wouldn't get. Everyone will get hit at some point. It's not an issue of if but when and when it happens more HP may make the difference between still standing or being downed.

 

However, Elementalist players ask for more HP to compensate for the reduction in damage they have been hit with. Many of them were ok with lower HP and being a glass cannon when the cannon part meant something. Now that the cannon doesn't hit as hard they don't want to be so glassy. All their heals and regens mean nothing if they aren't standing long enough to use them. Whether this interpretation of events is valid, however, is really beyond the scope of this thread.

 

> Just glass? Last checked they're still top of the pecking order for large hitboxes such as gors and kc, and beat out thief on any boss with revealed such as gors, xera, kc, deimos, and sam.

 

@"zencow.3651" 's post up thread pretty much responds to this. I'm not going to rehash his point as he pretty much hits the nail on the head with the Elementalist complaints.

 

> There's 3 roles to fill in raid: Buffer, buffer that moves the boss, and dps. Where does the reaper fit there? Also you still haven't answered what unique thing a reaper offers outside of dps.

> > I don't main Necromancer but if I wanted to go Raiding tonight I could.

 

In short, a Reaper is capable of burst DPS, has a good cleave radius, offers CC, can offer things like group Protection, and vulnerability. However, your response misses the point and to cut off the inevitable "but so and so can ........" I'm going to reiterate @"Obtena.7952" point about learning how to group in order to play. Yeah, I get it, other professions can do what Reaper does and typically better. That honestly only matters if you want it to matter. If you learn how to group then its shortcomings comparative to others isn't that big of a deal.

 

As I've said for several posts now, I can take my Reaper into Raids if I want to and I can do it despite whoever else might be better at what I'm doing. This game isn't always about the best of the best of the best at all times. Plenty of people take builds into Raids that get overshadowed by other builds. They do that by not focusing so much on what other people can do and learning how to group. If you put in that effort to learn how to group then you'll be free to play anything you want. If you chose to focus solely on the fact that others can outperform Necromancer then you only have yourself to blame if you are not getting into groups.

 

Group content isn't always about the ultimate best in this game. If that were the case then only Holosmith, Firebrand, Mirage, and Mesmer would be doing end game content. However, plenty of people take their Dragonhunter into end game content. Folks take Scrapper into end game content. People even take Scourge and Reaper into end game content. *gasps*

 

So you have a choice, complain on the forums and miss out or do something about it and learn how to group and start enjoying the game the way you want to. You can either passively wait for ANet to do whatever it is you expect them to do or you could be proactive and get out there and find the people who are more than happy to take a Reaper with them into a Raid.

 

It's up to you but frankly, I really don't have much sympathy for folks who want to do nothing more than complain about what they don't have when those factors are not always relevant for all people in the game. I get to enjoy the game the way I want to and anyone can who cares to put in the work to do so can. It isn't even just me who is saying this. Other people in the thread have reported doing the same. Some folks have even provided youtube videos of people doing end game content as Necromancers. Folks seem to want to ignore the evidence that says it can be done in favor of just complaining about what others can do better than them and asking for buffs that may never come. The OP has clearly given up on getting into end game content as a Necromancer and chooses the unproductive route to simply complain about it.

 

You don't have to have to share his fate.

 

 

 

 

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > then please tell me why people team up with a necro if its not dps then WHAT ??????

> > >

> > > This mentality is what blocks you. What makes you think I would ever team with people that need a reason for me to play a specific class in the first place? Those people exist, you will just have a very hard time meeting them in a random PUG. You are going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on your necro. You're going about it all wrong if you want to play how you want on ANY class for that matter.

> > >

> > > But, aside from that, there is a reason people want necro .... and it's not DPS.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Nobody wants that beyond 99/100CMs.

>

> Maybe the nobodies you play with. The nobodies I play with have no problem with it; even ask for it depending on the situation.

 

again words mean nothing without action show me a video or picture of player or LFG say we want support necro in fractal 99 and 100 CMs

i spend many hours on the LFG and i never saw that do you think i ll come to the forum and argue with people like if i can know players want my profession in end game content