sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and **should take responsibility** for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating. > > > > > > maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others. > > > > Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors. > > > > > > Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role. > With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite. > Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes. > Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact. But there are already viable dps an support options. They are even meta on some bosses. I think we don't need to talk about wvw. And they are quite the opposite of unfriendly to new players which imo is the main reason of the "necro hate". Regarding viability necros are in line with other professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking setup was: 2 chronos 4 pReaper 2 cScouges 1 cReaper(!) 1 support scourge don´t mind the low dps numbers a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) c) not min max gear + buffood it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. necro does fine in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Well, I didn't want to go there knowing the level of argument it would cause with the OP. But yes, I have had my share of PUG's and my experience is also similar to yours; I think I have been kicked a total of once and it's because I didn't understand. I learned from that, hasn't happened again. Of course, I can't wait for the OP to come call me a liar or pathetic for not proving I joined a PUG with my necro with extensive video coverage, but that's just par for the course at this point. > > > > > > I don't disagree that necros aren't niche or too low DPS. The discussion here is how to deal with that if you want to team with the class. Maybe I'm hyper realistic but I just don't see Anet coming in and buffing necro with what it needs to make it desirable in PUG teams, considering the history of the game. > > > > do you remember thief's they were our low dps and unwanted buddies for years and now anet buffed them they are no. 1 dps most wanted on all bosses > > so the history of the game is not on your side if anet saw a problem they will act to fix it ( although it may take time ) but if you stand here and say that if a necro get kick from the get go its a L2p issue that wont help any one . > > what you did it to adapt to a problem that shouldn't exist same for the advice that i can lead my own group that is just adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist > > no profession should be discriminated against for any reason . > > I think you need to you need to give your head a shake at this point. This EXACT example is precisely what I'm talk about when I say that game history is not in your favour if you compare complain and wait vs. learning to play as the options to team with necro. > > Are you **honestly** trying to tell me that a semi-random buff in the timeframe of many years that makes a class desirable in PUG teams is a historical game example that FAVOURS necros? If you really think that's favourable to necro players wanting to join pugs vs. learning to play, then you actually don't have anything to complain about here, because you **support** the idea that you have to wait many years before getting a buff that makes necro desirable in PUG team. You **acknowledge** the need for many random changes to the class and many years to pass before being desirable class in PUG teams. This is what you are saying ... that the random buff/complain strategy is BETTER than ... > > ... taking a few weeks and learning to team. > > As I've already said, that's your choice and it's open to everyone. > > you find a group that are willing to raid with a necro and i am happy for you now that solution wont work for every necro that dont have time for static group and want to raid on their spare time why go out of your way and argue that a problem that you yourself faced with PUGs and many other necro also faced doesnt exists and deceptively make as a learn to team up issue so in order to join a PUG group as a necro DPS i have to tell jokes to keep the group entertained many on this thread agree that necro is unwelcomed in PUGs and will face a discrimination in one way or another and a straight buff to necro DPS to keep it inline with other profession will solve many of necro problems in-contrast to what others want you to believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ and there goes your argument. no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > setup was: > > 2 chronos > 4 pReaper > 2 cScouges > 1 cReaper(!) > 1 support scourge > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > c) not min max gear + buffood > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > setup was: > > > > 2 chronos > > 4 pReaper > > 2 cScouges > > 1 cReaper(!) > > 1 support scourge > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and **should take responsibility** for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating. > > > > > > maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others. > > > > Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors. > > > > > > Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role. > With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite. > Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes. > Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact. Indirectly no. Elitist gamers tend to be toxic on their own. If they weren't toxic over this they would be toxic over something else. Elitist attitudes inherently breeds toxicity. There is no way they can prevent players from being toxic towards Necromancer players as they have no power to control the behaviors of other people. People are also toxic towards Thief (Deadeye in particular) and it isn't anywhere near as bad as Necromancer is. Giving them a role (though they already have one) won't change people's opinion on Necromancer. Scourge has a role, a good one at that, and people are still toxic towards Necromancer. Even then, the issue isn't even that Necromancer doesn't have a role. Ample evidence has been presented that shows that people can do the content, the fact that you guys ignore it in order to build your silly position doesn't change actual in-game facts. The issue is not tied to a lack of a role but to elitist attitudes towards who can do content, attitudes not based in fact. The folks who are toxic towards Necromancers tend to be toxic to a lot of various players in the game, for pretty much the same reason, that being their inaccurate idea of what is and isn't good. Necromancer is not the only one who suffers from toxicity. Also, mad at your quotes? Nothing you have said thus far has made me remotely mad. I don't even take your posts seriously as most of them are complaints because you can't play Reaper and insist it is busted in the face of evidence that you're the problem, not the Elite. If anything, the only emotion you've generated in me is pity. This is a silly internet discussion, there is nothing in this thread for me to be angry about. More so since I'm actually correct on most of what I've said, I can play my Reaper where I want to, and I don't suck at Reaper. Additionally, unfriendly to new players? Necromancer is still a very popular choice for new players. Not everyone cares about Necromancers limitations and plenty of people recommend Necromancer to new players all the time due to how forgiving of mistakes the profession is for new people learning the game. The idea that Necromancer hasn't been updated is just insanely silly as Necromancer has seen plenty of updates. Read the patch notes. There are six years worth of updates in Necromancer and you have six years worth of patch notes to read all about them, or just go to the wiki and read some of the update and changes to various skills and abilities it keeps track of. Elites also count as updates, and Reaper is an extremely popular Elite for new players. I see more new players in game persuing Reaper as their first Elite than I do Scourge. It's ludicrous claims like that that prevent me from taking you as seriously as I do some of the other folks in this conversation. Once you leave the forums and you start talking to new players in game and other players in game the attitude of Necromancer players begins to lighten up some. Most of this thread is based on the false assumption that we are talking about game balance when the pictures the OP presented show a social problem. It's cute that we are supposed to take those photo's seriously but everyone who stands with the OP blithly ignore any form of evidence that contradictes their childish narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > 4 pReaper > > > 2 cScouges > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > @"sigur.9453" said: > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > and there goes your argument. > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put 'dps' between brackets!) And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the 'PvE endgame' as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not for EVERY single boss or niche situation, but 'Raids' in general, 'T4 Fractals (CM)' in general, or back in the days: 'Dungeons' in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that "title" before (and every other class has)! EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > > 4 pReaper > > > > 2 cScouges > > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? > > its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long > and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from as long as a good player on necro can outdps every other profession played by an average player, its not a balance issue. if you would look at raidars global stats, you would see that necro is pretty much in the middle of the pack. conclusion 1: necros balancing is fine, sure, could get some buffs, but so do other classes. conclusion 2: if necro is in the middle of the pack, shouldn´t there be other classes to that are excluded from so called elitist meta groups? hint: there are! and no, i like necro, im havíng quite a lot of fun playing power reaper (scourge not so, its boring) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > and there goes your argument. > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! > Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put dps between brackets!) > And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the "PvE endgame" as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not EVERY single boss, but Raids in general, T4 fractals in general, or back in the days, dungeons in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that title before (and every other class has)! > EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). t4 fractals, 4 necros 1 druid. it was even for a long period of time as far as i remember. arguably not meta, but the go to pug composition. yeah, correctly, i was speaking about dps classes, no reason to argue against or about the holy support trinity. edit:i cant remember rev been the go to class at any point in time. situational it had its up and downs (like necro) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > and there goes your argument. > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. Im going to disagree with you there, since a class should not be excluded from the desire to do that particular raid. Having different builds for different raid bosses is one thing, like Eles having large targets and small target. The major issue is necros are optimal for 1 or 2 and non meta for the majority of them. https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/ How is that good design that reaper is only really good for 1 or 2 raids, and the majority of them can skip necro? How is it good a build like scourge which is very non meta in pve raids, has its only thing that it has maybe going for it(Support) gutted? A class should never be bad at everything, because that is just terrible design. A class who is built up as support can fail at dps, but if it also fails to be a useful support, then that is very bad design.Oversights such as I discussed with dragonfury, and he can confirm this, that the nerf to grit because of a rune oversight, is bad design and questionable. Anet should not have released the new runes without bug testing them. There are also more examples of oversights and poor choices, like the whole thing of the scourge bug that allowed them to do so much dps, but made them viable in pve, and then they get gutted more and more and more. Or what about he poor choice of design of combining different offensive and defensive abilities into 1? Anet needs to learn a few lessons from wow such as:Huge nerfs and buffs are bad for the game balance. It can easily completely destroy balance in 1 go by either overbuffing something, or overnerfing. They should test the classes before releasing them, even if they love the idea of a style of a class, so as to not create something later that has to be gutted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > > > 4 pReaper > > > > > 2 cScouges > > > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > > > > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? > > > > its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long > > and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from > > as long as a good player on necro can outdps every other profession played by an average player, its not a balance issue. LMAO what a sound argument that good necro can out DPS other profession played by bad players and a good player on any other profession can out preform god tier necro player by alot and by your definition its called a social issue and its not in the middle here is a hint [sC benchmark](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ "SC benchmark") you ll see both necro elites are in the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! > > Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put dps between brackets!) > > And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the "PvE endgame" as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not EVERY single boss, but Raids in general, T4 fractals in general, or back in the days, dungeons in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that title before (and every other class has)! > > EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). > > t4 fractals, 4 necros 1 druid. it was even for a long period of time as far as i remember. arguably not meta, but the go to pug composition. > yeah, correctly, i was speaking about dps classes, no reason to argue against or about the holy support trinity. > > edit:i cant remember rev been the go to class at any point in time. situational it had its up and downs (like necro) this is a discussion about PvE end game content that mean fractal CMs , raid and raid CMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > and there goes your argument. > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > Im going to disagree with you there, since a class should not be excluded from the desire to do that particular raid. > > Having different builds for different raid bosses is one thing, like Eles having large targets and small target. > > The major issue is necros are optimal for 1 or 2 and non meta for the majority of them. > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/ > > > How is that good design that reaper is only really good for 1 or 2 raids, and the majority of them can skip necro? > > How is it good a build like scourge which is very non meta in pve raids, has its only thing that it has maybe going for it(Support) gutted? > > A class should never be bad at everything, because that is just terrible design. A class who is built up as support can fail at dps, but if it also fails to be a useful support, then that is very bad design.Oversights such as I discussed with dragonfury, and he can confirm this, that the nerf to grit because of a rune oversight, is bad design and questionable. Anet should not have released the new runes without bug testing them. > all dps builds combined, ele is meta on 2 bosses chrono excluded the obvious support part on 4 engee on 6 ranger excluded the obvious support on 0 thief rules supreme. guardian on 7 herold on 3 warrior excluded the obvious support on 0 necro on 2 i see outliers here, but its not necro. necro isn´t bad at everything, NO class is! don´t know why you think sup scourge is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > > > > 4 pReaper > > > > > > 2 cScouges > > > > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > > > > > > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? > > > > > > its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long > > > and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from > > > > as long as a good player on necro can outdps every other profession played by an average player, its not a balance issue. > LMAO > what a sound argument that good necro can out DPS other profession played by bad players > and a good player on any other profession can out preform god tier necro player by alot > and by your definition its called a social issue > and its not in the middle here is a hint [sC benchmark](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ "SC benchmark") you ll see both necro elites are in the bottom it might me a shocker but golem =/= actuall raidboss. you sound like an elitist! look at the global stats https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats an filter by boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > > > Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! > > > Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put dps between brackets!) > > > And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the "PvE endgame" as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not EVERY single boss, but Raids in general, T4 fractals in general, or back in the days, dungeons in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that title before (and every other class has)! > > > EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). > > > > t4 fractals, 4 necros 1 druid. it was even for a long period of time as far as i remember. arguably not meta, but the go to pug composition. > > yeah, correctly, i was speaking about dps classes, no reason to argue against or about the holy support trinity. > > > > edit:i cant remember rev been the go to class at any point in time. situational it had its up and downs (like necro) > > this is a discussion about PvE end game content that mean fractal CMs , raid and raid CMs > ok then dhuum cm leaderboard: https://www.gw2raidar.com/leaderboards 3(1) scourges in first place. and before you go "but epi nerfed". this is with current (!) patch sabetha leaderboards i see a lot of scourge symbols there. same goes vor vg leaderbords. and lets not talk about the epi bounce era pre nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > > > > > 4 pReaper > > > > > > > 2 cScouges > > > > > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > > > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > > > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > > > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > > > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > > > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > > > > > > > > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? > > > > > > > > its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long > > > > and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > > i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from > > > > > > as long as a good player on necro can outdps every other profession played by an average player, its not a balance issue. > > LMAO > > what a sound argument that good necro can out DPS other profession played by bad players > > and a good player on any other profession can out preform god tier necro player by alot > > and by your definition its called a social issue > > and its not in the middle here is a hint [sC benchmark](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ "SC benchmark") you ll see both necro elites are in the bottom > > it might me a shocker but golem =/= actuall raidboss. you sound like an elitist! > look at the global stats https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats an filter by boss. > yea its in the "middle" if took your time and look at the stats for each boss you ll see that power reaper is not at the bottom because he is always above tempest (they have weaver) and warrior (losing DPS because they take banner) and scourge except very few bosses he is at middle but other bosses at the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > Im going to disagree with you there, since a class should not be excluded from the desire to do that particular raid. > > > > Having different builds for different raid bosses is one thing, like Eles having large targets and small target. > > > > The major issue is necros are optimal for 1 or 2 and non meta for the majority of them. > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/ > > > > > > How is that good design that reaper is only really good for 1 or 2 raids, and the majority of them can skip necro? > > > > How is it good a build like scourge which is very non meta in pve raids, has its only thing that it has maybe going for it(Support) gutted? > > > > A class should never be bad at everything, because that is just terrible design. A class who is built up as support can fail at dps, but if it also fails to be a useful support, then that is very bad design.Oversights such as I discussed with dragonfury, and he can confirm this, that the nerf to grit because of a rune oversight, is bad design and questionable. Anet should not have released the new runes without bug testing them. > > > all dps builds combined, > ele is meta on 2 bosses > chrono excluded the obvious support part on 4 > engee on 6 > ranger excluded the obvious support on 0 > thief rules supreme. > guardian on 7 > herold on 3 > warrior excluded the obvious support on 0 > necro on 2 > > i see outliers here, but its not necro. > > necro isn´t bad at everything, NO class is! > don´t know why you think sup scourge is bad. > The problem is, look at the scourge support, it says on snowcrows unsubstantial and inefficient, and there you have a reason for elitists to deny you and flat out be elitist against a spec. I heard that the ones that were good in support are not fully correct, because of the change to scourge support.Wether this is true or not, its still super niche and very much a class build that has few places to shine or be desired. The word of the day is classism, and its not even 100% since its not a social class, but rather comparable to racism, so lets call it class racism. If ANET does stuff that encourages class elitism and class racism, then that is what is going to happen. They created some of the problems, so of course they have the responsibility of fixing it. It isn't our fault that the class has limitations that limit our dps to the point where we are less likely to be taken over one of the overlords of dps being:Thief Mesmers holomancers etc, because they have superior dps and these classes also have superior support, so where does that leave scourge in support? helping bad players who die constantly, but even in raids, that wont work since its perma death in escort if you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > > Btw. this happend out of boredom with my static + 2 randoms (we don´t do w3 normaly) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TonnesPunchesNervousTrustsDrinking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > setup was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 chronos > > > > > > > > 4 pReaper > > > > > > > > 2 cScouges > > > > > > > > 1 cReaper(!) > > > > > > > > 1 support scourge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don´t mind the low dps numbers > > > > > > > > a) mayor hickups in orb phase (we tried to insta pull in a circle with GS5, which happend 0/6 times) > > > > > > > > b) most of us have never been on the golem with necro (okok, we honestly suck with that class) > > > > > > > > c) not min max gear + buffood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it was a pretty chill (hehe) first try though. > > > > > > > > we also 6 or 7(?) manned escort beforehand with 1 chrono rest necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > necro does fine in raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no one here is arguing the capability of any profession to clear contents what we are here discussing is why a certain profession keep getting kicked from PUGs before they are allowed to do content > > > > > > > > > > > > so you finaly agree that its not a balance issues, perfect. can we now talk about the social issue why necro(an dh also in that regard) have a chance of not beeing accepted? > > > > > > > > > > its is NOT a social issue its A PURE BALANCE issue as in a one certain profession doing way less than any other profession and it did stay at the bottom for too long > > > > > and you want it to stay the lowest for some reason > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > sry, you sound like you want necro to be the be all, end all meta dps/support/power/condi class. > > > > > i want necro to be treated inline with other profession i can only assume where this irrational hatred toward necro is coming from > > > > > > > > as long as a good player on necro can outdps every other profession played by an average player, its not a balance issue. > > > LMAO > > > what a sound argument that good necro can out DPS other profession played by bad players > > > and a good player on any other profession can out preform god tier necro player by alot > > > and by your definition its called a social issue > > > and its not in the middle here is a hint [sC benchmark](https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ "SC benchmark") you ll see both necro elites are in the bottom > > > > it might me a shocker but golem =/= actuall raidboss. you sound like an elitist! > > look at the global stats https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats an filter by boss. > > > > yea its in the "middle" > if took your time and look at the stats for each boss you ll see that power reaper is not at the bottom because he is always above tempest (they have weaver) and warrior (losing DPS because they take banner) > and scourge except very few bosses he is at middle but other bosses at the bottom above tempest, above spellbreaker, above herold above soulbeast,above other classes.................varifies from boss to boss---> the middle. some professions even have higher benchmarks on SC site. how is that possible? edit: don´t think pwarrior would to a whole lot more dps without banners. so for scourge you mean a good mix? and suprisingly mostly ahead of firebrand which also is better on the benchmark?! it can even outdps a condi engee on mathias that is 4-5k ahead the benchmarks?! its almost as that there is no universal truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > > > > > Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! > > > > Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put dps between brackets!) > > > > And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the "PvE endgame" as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not EVERY single boss, but Raids in general, T4 fractals in general, or back in the days, dungeons in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that title before (and every other class has)! > > > > EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). > > > > > > t4 fractals, 4 necros 1 druid. it was even for a long period of time as far as i remember. arguably not meta, but the go to pug composition. > > > yeah, correctly, i was speaking about dps classes, no reason to argue against or about the holy support trinity. > > > > > > edit:i cant remember rev been the go to class at any point in time. situational it had its up and downs (like necro) > > > > this is a discussion about PvE end game content that mean fractal CMs , raid and raid CMs > > > > ok then dhuum cm leaderboard: > https://www.gw2raidar.com/leaderboards > 3(1) scourges in first place. and before you go "but epi nerfed". this is with current (!) patch > sabetha leaderboards i see a lot of scourge symbols there. > same goes vor vg leaderbords. > > and lets not talk about the epi bounce era pre nerf. > > i have told you many time that anet consider epi bouncing as an exploit and not how epi is designed to function they did and will take action against epi bouncing until its dead . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > > > Im going to disagree with you there, since a class should not be excluded from the desire to do that particular raid. > > > > > > Having different builds for different raid bosses is one thing, like Eles having large targets and small target. > > > > > > The major issue is necros are optimal for 1 or 2 and non meta for the majority of them. > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/ > > > > > > > > > How is that good design that reaper is only really good for 1 or 2 raids, and the majority of them can skip necro? > > > > > > How is it good a build like scourge which is very non meta in pve raids, has its only thing that it has maybe going for it(Support) gutted? > > > > > > A class should never be bad at everything, because that is just terrible design. A class who is built up as support can fail at dps, but if it also fails to be a useful support, then that is very bad design.Oversights such as I discussed with dragonfury, and he can confirm this, that the nerf to grit because of a rune oversight, is bad design and questionable. Anet should not have released the new runes without bug testing them. > > > > > all dps builds combined, > > ele is meta on 2 bosses > > chrono excluded the obvious support part on 4 > > engee on 6 > > ranger excluded the obvious support on 0 > > thief rules supreme. > > guardian on 7 > > herold on 3 > > warrior excluded the obvious support on 0 > > necro on 2 > > > > i see outliers here, but its not necro. > > > > necro isn´t bad at everything, NO class is! > > don´t know why you think sup scourge is bad. > > > > The problem is, look at the scourge support, it says on snowcrows unsubstantial and inefficient, and there you have a reason for elitists to deny you and flat out be elitist against a spec. > > I heard that the ones that were good in support are not fully correct, because of the change to scourge support.Wether this is true or not, its still super niche and very much a class build that has few places to shine or be desired. > > The word of the day is classism, and its not even 100% since its not a social class, but rather comparable to racism, so lets call it class racism. > > If ANET does stuff that encourages class elitism and class racism, then that is what is going to happen. They created some of the problems, so of course they have the responsibility of fixing it. It isn't our fault that the class has limitations that limit our dps to the point where we are less likely to be taken over one of the overlords of dps being:Thief Mesmers holomancers etc, because they have superior dps and these classes also have superior support, so where does that leave scourge in support? helping bad players who die constantly, but even in raids, that wont work since its perma death in escort if you die. > > > > thats the thing with elitist, they deny EVERY CLASS that is not meta on a certain boss the participation. it has nothing to do with necro. but luckily there is a whole lot more groups that only destinct between power/condi + please dont suck. sup scourge is probaply the most popular 2nd healer (pugs need 2 healers most of the times) at the moment, on literally every boss. (at least i cant think of a boss atm where sup scourge would suck by design, please correct me if im wrong) dps overloards currently are thief, dh, ren, & if we don´t get to picky mirage (super niche like scourge) thats 4/10 classes. necros are not alone. engee is a great overall pick though. call it racsim then, i won´t. i don´t get the "helping bad players that die" argument. helping players not to die is support? sorry if i ask, how many raid expierence you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Well, I didn't want to go there knowing the level of argument it would cause with the OP. But yes, I have had my share of PUG's and my experience is also similar to yours; I think I have been kicked a total of once and it's because I didn't understand. I learned from that, hasn't happened again. Of course, I can't wait for the OP to come call me a liar or pathetic for not proving I joined a PUG with my necro with extensive video coverage, but that's just par for the course at this point. > > > > > > > > I don't disagree that necros aren't niche or too low DPS. The discussion here is how to deal with that if you want to team with the class. Maybe I'm hyper realistic but I just don't see Anet coming in and buffing necro with what it needs to make it desirable in PUG teams, considering the history of the game. > > > > > > do you remember thief's they were our low dps and unwanted buddies for years and now anet buffed them they are no. 1 dps most wanted on all bosses > > > so the history of the game is not on your side if anet saw a problem they will act to fix it ( although it may take time ) but if you stand here and say that if a necro get kick from the get go its a L2p issue that wont help any one . > > > what you did it to adapt to a problem that shouldn't exist same for the advice that i can lead my own group that is just adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist > > > no profession should be discriminated against for any reason . > > > > I think you need to you need to give your head a shake at this point. This EXACT example is precisely what I'm talk about when I say that game history is not in your favour if you compare complain and wait vs. learning to play as the options to team with necro. > > > > Are you **honestly** trying to tell me that a semi-random buff in the timeframe of many years that makes a class desirable in PUG teams is a historical game example that FAVOURS necros? If you really think that's favourable to necro players wanting to join pugs vs. learning to play, then you actually don't have anything to complain about here, because you **support** the idea that you have to wait many years before getting a buff that makes necro desirable in PUG team. You **acknowledge** the need for many random changes to the class and many years to pass before being desirable class in PUG teams. This is what you are saying ... that the random buff/complain strategy is BETTER than ... > > > > ... taking a few weeks and learning to team. > > > > As I've already said, that's your choice and it's open to everyone. > > > > > > you find a group that are willing to raid with a necro and i am happy for you > now that solution wont work for every necro that dont have time for static group and want to raid on their spare time why go out of your way and argue that a problem that you yourself faced with PUGs and many other necro also faced doesnt exists and deceptively make as a learn to team up issue That's why we discuss this at great length ... you are wrong. You don't have time to find a static? That's not true at all. You certainly have lots of time to collect screen shots and make threads about it. If you just applied your energy elsewhere, you would have been on the road to necro teaming already. /shrug You have choice but it seems making excuses is easier and more favourable to you. AGAIN ... I'm NOT arguing this doesn't exist; I've said this at least a dozen times by now (and you wonder why people are calling you dishonest all the time). I'm arguing that ANYONE that learns to play can get a team as a necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > Funny how everyone always gives anecdotal proof of how _viable_ Necromancers are. But I believe there is NO issue at all on how viable the Necro as a class is in the PvE endgame. That should also not be the discussion here! > > > > > > > It is the fact that they've NEVER been legitimately **optimal** in the whole PvE endgame (save for those periods where they were either bugged or exploitable), and pretty much every other class has been, or is! > > > > > > > And really, this is something only ANet can do something about! > > > > > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/ > > > > > > > > > > > > and there goes your argument. > > > > > > no (dps) class is optimal on every boss/situation. nore should any class be, that would be the definition of bad balancing. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe read the "has been" part (even Revenant has had quite a period that they were the absolute go for class in **every** raid)! > > > > > Also, you're wrong: [Chrono](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/support/), [Druid](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/ranger/druid/healing/), (https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/)(https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/banner/) ??? (seeing you put dps between brackets!) > > > > > And, maybe I should make myself clear here that I consider the "PvE endgame" as a more or less overall term where some classes really rule in general, maybe not EVERY single boss, but Raids in general, T4 fractals in general, or back in the days, dungeons in general! And like I stated, Necro has **NEVER** had that title before (and every other class has)! > > > > > EDIT: before you start: and what about Epi-bounce?: that was considered an exploit by ANet and they nerfed it (making it a niche, at best). > > > > > > > > t4 fractals, 4 necros 1 druid. it was even for a long period of time as far as i remember. arguably not meta, but the go to pug composition. > > > > yeah, correctly, i was speaking about dps classes, no reason to argue against or about the holy support trinity. > > > > > > > > edit:i cant remember rev been the go to class at any point in time. situational it had its up and downs (like necro) > > > > > > this is a discussion about PvE end game content that mean fractal CMs , raid and raid CMs > > > > > > > ok then dhuum cm leaderboard: > > https://www.gw2raidar.com/leaderboards > > 3(1) scourges in first place. and before you go "but epi nerfed". this is with current (!) patch > > sabetha leaderboards i see a lot of scourge symbols there. > > same goes vor vg leaderbords. > > > > and lets not talk about the epi bounce era pre nerf. > > > > > > i have told you many time that anet consider epi bouncing as an exploit and not how epi is designed to function they did and will take action against epi bouncing until its dead . a nice comment out of context, which dispoofs nothing i have postet. oh, and since you mentioned it, could you please link me the dev statment that states "epi bouncing is an exploit". apearantly i missed that. last time i checked, epi was still in the game. but im eager to be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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