Solution to Expensive Rune destruction problem.

[Aaralyna.3104]

Actually those "trash runes" are used in crafting/levelling of gears (tailoring etc). Now to get these "trash runes" you have to get them symbols and motes for it. Motes no problem (tho they still don't come in masses and I've been playing actively). Symbols, still saw zero. Black Lion Salvage kit, in over 1 year daily playing (paid acc) got my 2nd pre patch.

 

As for the f2p thing. Gw2 can be seen as a freemium (access to game for free, pay cash to gem store). But most people that are f2p play because they don't want/can't/aren't allowed to spend any real cash. Anyone that can spend real cash will probably buy the expansions instead. But even for those players its ridiculously difficult to get symbols to drop, or be lucky to get a black lion salvage kit without running to the gem shop (and just for playing the game). To me this game was always promoted as not p2w, needing the gem shop to progress gearing just shouts p2w for me. QoL items that have nothing to do with gear progression/outfits and such gimmics, those are the items that belong in an item shop.

 

P.s I like Leablo's suggestion about give that option to automatic salvage tools (fed-o-matics), which you can salvage based on rarity of your choice.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I have a lot of BLSK's. I also rarely get exotics. Even more rarely do those exotics contain runes/sigils I might want. So, this is unlikely to be a problem for _me_ for a long time. However, I wouldn't consider it unusual for some others to have fewer kits, and get enough drops for this to be a choice they must face considerably more frequently.

 

I don't believe ANet is going to change the new system anytime soon, if at all. It scratches too many ANet and player issues as is. It makes a couple of gem store items more useful, which will ablate those items hoarded by players, and maybe -- sooner or later -- result in greater gem acquisition regardless of whether by cash or gold. It also adds another material sink to the game, which bolsters the value of certain items. Thirdly, it solves the runes/sigils inventory issue for players who want to deal with inventory control with as few steps as possible. I'm afraid that people who find the new system to be a problem are going to find themselves to be yet another marginalized minority. This is going to put them in the company of groups like the people who disliked the NPE, the people who resisted Ascended gear, and the people who want core specs to be on a par with Elites.

 

It's unfortunate, but there are always going to be casualties when MMO's make system changes.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

I'm really not sure where people are coming from who say things like "Nobody changes their runes more than once a month." When was the last time you ranked up a character?

 

New players will not have the option of experimenting with different runes or sigils any more because they will never see different ones, they will only get what comes pre-installed in dropped or purchased gear. Instead of working to get the best build they can, they will accept anything with an upgrade in it as SPECIAL. I mean, maybe this puts us in a place where someone will finally say, "Oooh, wow, this spear gets +3% damage against underwater Grawl!" and think that's a sweet bonus over the usual weapon, but...

 

New crafters will not be able to craft runes as they play, either to use or just to level their crafting, because the materials you need to craft with are such a rare drop that 'discovering' recipes for runes and sigils will no longer be a thing. I kind of doubt low-level players will ever see a charm before they hit level 50-ish. Or realize they exist.

 

People who are ranking up a character will lose out on the bonuses from runes and sigils, or reject un-upgraded armor drops, and probably end up ranking up slower because of crummier gear.

 

I know there are people who only play a couple of Level 80s and don't need to change out their runes. But there are also those like me. I rank up a key farmer from 0 to 40 every week. Every time a better piece of gear drops, I want a decent upgrade to put in it so I can push across the map faster. No, those gem chips that give a +3 to attributes are NOT as good as a minor rune, and either is a mark, which can't be used till Level 20 in any case. Keeping a supply of good runes has always been part of the strategy, and now my free supply is gone, and the purchasable supply is 20 times the price it used to be, and crafting is so insanely expensive as to be pointless.

 

Stop telling me it isn't a problem.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> Stop telling me it isn't a problem.

What problem? Check out the new player posts on this forum. People regularly get told not to bother about matching gear, much less matching upgrades, while leveling. You usually get along fine with a mix of random drops and level rewards. The rare cases where people get stuck during the leveling process are pretty much always because of not understanding class or game mechanics, and optimizing equipment is usually a waste of time and resources as it doesn't help them one bit in overcoming mechanics issues.

 

This leaves the "problem" of your key-farmer being not optimized, and to be honest, that's not the kind of scenario that I hope ANet focusses on when balancing game systems. I regularly play characters of all levels (not key farmers though, as I find throw-away characters not to my liking), and even on those classes that I don't know well, equipping mis-matched drops works fine. It would probably take me a similar amount of time gathering and preparing optimized gear every 10 or so levels as it now takes me longer to dispose of mobs in my way (especially considering that mob xp is ususally just a very small part of the experience you gain while leveling through the open world).

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> I'm really not sure where people are coming from who say things like "Nobody changes their runes more than once a month." When was the last time you ranked up a character?

>

> New players will not have the option of experimenting with different runes or sigils any more because they will never see different ones, they will only get what comes pre-installed in dropped or purchased gear. Instead of working to get the best build they can, they will accept anything with an upgrade in it as SPECIAL. I mean, maybe this puts us in a place where someone will finally say, "Oooh, wow, this spear gets +3% damage against underwater Grawl!" and think that's a sweet bonus over the usual weapon, but...

>

> New crafters will not be able to craft runes as they play, either to use or just to level their crafting, because the materials you need to craft with are such a rare drop that 'discovering' recipes for runes and sigils will no longer be a thing. I kind of doubt low-level players will ever see a charm before they hit level 50-ish. Or realize they exist.

>

> People who are ranking up a character will lose out on the bonuses from runes and sigils, or reject un-upgraded armor drops, and probably end up ranking up slower because of crummier gear.

>

> I know there are people who only play a couple of Level 80s and don't need to change out their runes. But there are also those like me. I rank up a key farmer from 0 to 40 every week. Every time a better piece of gear drops, I want a decent upgrade to put in it so I can push across the map faster. No, those gem chips that give a +3 to attributes are NOT as good as a minor rune, and either is a mark, which can't be used till Level 20 in any case. Keeping a supply of good runes has always been part of the strategy, and now my free supply is gone, and the purchasable supply is 20 times the price it used to be, and crafting is so insanely expensive as to be pointless.

>

> Stop telling me it isn't a problem.

 

I've got 4 permanent characters between level 7 and 70, I boosted one to 60 to play through the story last week (she ended up about level 72) and I've got a new one who is level 7 and may go as far as level 40. Once I'm done with him I'll probably make another temporary one. In other words I'm always levelling at least one character, and 3 of my level 80 ones don't have 'permanent' builds/gear yet - I'm working on getting gear for one and trying to decide what I want for the other two. But like a lot of people I don't worry about equipment while levelling, I just use whatever drops/story rewards have the best stats. Yes that sometimes includes the upgrades (I always like the ones with a sigil of air you get from level rewards), but I can't see myself clinging to anything with an upgrade slotted just because they won't get stuck in my inventory when I eventually salvage the thing they're in.

 

Maybe the difference is that when I'm levelling a character, even if it's a temporary one I made to complete a specific task and then delete, I'm not trying to get it done as quickly as possible so I don't worry too much about having the best possible gear/build. I tend to go the other way and deliberately avoid using skills I have on my permanent characters so I can try out the others and either remember why I don't like them or find new ways to use them which I might like.

 

And they were always disproportionate expensive to craft. Crafting runes and sigils used rare materials - the dragon slivers/fragments/shards etc. and you almost always lost money by crafting them rather than selling the raw materials.

 

Overall I think I'm just surprised that after so long with people asking to be able to salvage sigils and runes or stop them being salvaged or even suggesting removing all minor upgrades from the game all together to get rid of them that now we've got exactly that it's a huge problem because there will be less of them available. I thought that's exactly what I kept seeing people ask for, and the only disagreement I saw was regarding the exact method used to make them rarer, not whether or not it should happen at all.

 

As far as I'm concerned if I can get them when I want them, which I can - by crafting them or buying them from the TP (exactly the same methods I used before) - then it's ok.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Look at it the other way around: you want a specific sigil? Use your crafter to craft it from materials you've collected along the way. No need to wait for a weapon with just the sigil you want to drop, while throwing out tons of other weapons with useless sigils that you have to sell at vendor price.

>

> Or you can go and buy the sigil itself from the trading post, just like you could before the update (and had to most of the time, as getting just the sigil you want to drop at a specific time was/is next to impossible).

 

Yeah, the new system works so well that important components like Superior Sigil of Transference went from 1g to 5g. :astonished: Pretty much all the important sigils/runes have gone up in price on the TP, not down. If the point of the new salvaging system was to make upgrade components more accessible, it's failing hard core.

 

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

The only solution I see, is salvage all prompting you whether you want to salvage the runes/sigils immediately or seperate them.

 

I cant imagine ArenaNet will do that though. Clearly the new system is to make the semi-paid options of extracting upgrades more valuable, to get rid of the gold generated from merching them and to salvage runes and sigils out of gear a thing of the past. It does feel a bit cash grabby imo, And to have a separate single salvage to extract would be nicer.

 

Still though. I don't like to see max gear customisation like superior sigils and runes to be more valuable and prefer to change/create builds at a relative low cost.

 

Ofcourse, the question is, how often did we really change runes or sigils. And how much did you value that. I doubt its that often. Then again, we also get less generated coin now. I always liked the few silver after salvaging a full inventory. Wont be noticeable on the short term though.

[Ana.2415]

They should add a new option to salvage kits "Salvage and extract" to have a chance like before to extract runes or sigils. So people can make their own choice, if they wanna salvage everything just use the option "salvage all".... if they want to have the chance to get a sigil or rune "Salvage and extract".

 

I don't get why they removed completly the chance to extract them. It's not fair to force us to salvage them directly.

 

Let us decide if we want to keep them, sell them or salvage them.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> > Stop telling me it isn't a problem.

> What problem? Check out the new player posts on this forum. People regularly get told not to bother about matching gear, much less matching upgrades, while leveling. You usually get along fine with a mix of random drops and level rewards. The rare cases where people get stuck during the leveling process are pretty much always because of not understanding class or game mechanics, and optimizing equipment is usually a waste of time and resources as it doesn't help them one bit in overcoming mechanics issues.

>

> This leaves the "problem" of your key-farmer being not optimized, and to be honest, that's not the kind of scenario that I hope ANet focusses on when balancing game systems. I regularly play characters of all levels (not key farmers though, as I find throw-away characters not to my liking), and even on those classes that I don't know well, equipping mis-matched drops works fine. It would probably take me a similar amount of time gathering and preparing optimized gear every 10 or so levels as it now takes me longer to dispose of mobs in my way (especially considering that mob xp is ususally just a very small part of the experience you gain while leveling through the open world).

 

1. While I agree that a brand new player won't know or care about runes and sigils (I didn't), it does make a difference for your 2nd character and onwards. Thankfully now I'm at a point where I have almost two stacks of Tomes of Knowledge, so I don't have to manually level another character ever again, but that isn't the point: the game should allow you to optimize at any given stage, without the cost being prohibitive. Previously this wasn't an issue as you could just buy more green / yellow upgrade components for copper or a few silver whenever you needed. Eventually that will end; in fact a guildmate asked in chat the other day why the prices of such components had seemed to double.

 

2. I'd love to meet these "optimized" key farmers. I start a new character on Tuesday, complete the tutorial mission, use 8 tomes of knowledge, and 15 minutes later or so I collect my key, vendor gear and delete the toon. Those 8 tomes of knowledge are been replaced by Thursday (to my chagrin...I can't use them fast enough grrr).

 

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> 2. I'd love to meet these "optimized" key farmers. I start a new character on Tuesday, complete the tutorial mission, use 8 tomes of knowledge, and 15 minutes later or so I collect my key, vendor gear and delete the toon. Those 8 tomes of knowledge are been replaced by Thursday (to my chagrin...I can't use them fast enough grrr).

 

That's only if you're willing to settle for one key. To get a character to around Level 35 I usually run them through map completion on 3-4 maps. Playing the story takes care of the last few levels. I get two keys from the story (Level 10 and Level 40 Destiny's Edge confrontation) and often more keys from the map completions. A few times I have had lucky key farmers who actually brought in 5 keys. And I have heard of others who play their key farmers through Level 60. (I assume they have either a whole lot of free time, or a huge supply of tomes.)

 

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If you've been here awhile, you don't need a huge supply of Tomes. It's all those Birthday Scrolls being used.

[Blocki.4931]

When was the last time you cared about rune bonuses before superior tier? When was the last time a new player cared about that stuff because whatever they drop or get from level up rewards had a different one anyway and there is no tutorial? No, I don't think that's an argument for it either. Runes are largely meaningless. They matter when you have geared up already, when you have the gear you are planning to use. That's when you want to have the last bit(s) of "gear progression", which in this case means a rune set that gives you the bonus you want to have. Don't pretend like players are missing out on something huge. Look at the green and yellow runes and tell me again that they are relevant.

 

Probably better off putting in orbs into their gear.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:

> I'm really not sure where people are coming from who say things like "Nobody changes their runes more than once a month." When was the last time you ranked up a character?

>

> New players will not have the option of experimenting with different runes or sigils any more because they will never see different ones, they will only get what comes pre-installed in dropped or purchased gear. Instead of working to get the best build they can, they will accept anything with an upgrade in it as SPECIAL. I mean, maybe this puts us in a place where someone will finally say, "Oooh, wow, this spear gets +3% damage against underwater Grawl!" and think that's a sweet bonus over the usual weapon, but...

>

> New crafters will not be able to craft runes as they play, either to use or just to level their crafting, because the materials you need to craft with are such a rare drop that 'discovering' recipes for runes and sigils will no longer be a thing. I kind of doubt low-level players will ever see a charm before they hit level 50-ish. Or realize they exist.

>

> People who are ranking up a character will lose out on the bonuses from runes and sigils, or reject un-upgraded armor drops, and probably end up ranking up slower because of crummier gear.

>

> I know there are people who only play a couple of Level 80s and don't need to change out their runes. But there are also those like me. I rank up a key farmer from 0 to 40 every week. Every time a better piece of gear drops, I want a decent upgrade to put in it so I can push across the map faster. No, those gem chips that give a +3 to attributes are NOT as good as a minor rune, and either is a mark, which can't be used till Level 20 in any case. Keeping a supply of good runes has always been part of the strategy, and now my free supply is gone, and the purchasable supply is 20 times the price it used to be, and crafting is so insanely expensive as to be pointless.

>

> Stop telling me it isn't a problem.

 

You seriously overrate the importance of these upgrades. In fact, I just realized one of my weapons I crafted last month for my firebrand last month _has no sigil_ and I didn't even notice. Still outlast 90% of the firebrands out there in WvW. See, I've actually helped some new players out lately instead of just writing about it. I didn't even help them with the gear. I just gave them a stack of low level food for 15, 40, 60, and 80. That was more than sufficient and bigger impact then puny sigil/rune boosts.

 

So yea, unless you're raiding, it isn't a problem.

 

And when I did key runs, I just buy some green gear., if I didn't just use whatever the level ups provided. But honestly, how many new players are farming keys? Really shouldn't really lump your own issues with those of new players.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> When was the last time you cared about rune bonuses before superior tier? When was the last time a new player cared about that stuff because whatever they drop or get from level up rewards had a different one anyway and there is no tutorial? No, I don't think that's an argument for it either. Runes are largely meaningless. They matter when you have geared up already, when you have the gear you are planning to use. That's when you want to have the last bit(s) of "gear progression", which in this case means a rune set that gives you the bonus you want to have. Don't pretend like players are missing out on something huge. Look at the green and yellow runes and tell me again that they are relevant.

>

> Probably better off putting in orbs into their gear.

 

I'd argue it matters from LV 39 to 60....and same applies to sigils.

 

Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean they are unimportant. Otherwise why even have sigils or runes in the game before LV 60?

 

Having items in game that serve no purpose = bad design

Having items in game that serve a purpose but are unnecessarily difficult to acquire so as to discourage people from doing so = bad design

 

So let's talk about moving towards "good design", shall we?

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > When was the last time you cared about rune bonuses before superior tier? When was the last time a new player cared about that stuff because whatever they drop or get from level up rewards had a different one anyway and there is no tutorial? No, I don't think that's an argument for it either. Runes are largely meaningless. They matter when you have geared up already, when you have the gear you are planning to use. That's when you want to have the last bit(s) of "gear progression", which in this case means a rune set that gives you the bonus you want to have. Don't pretend like players are missing out on something huge. Look at the green and yellow runes and tell me again that they are relevant.

> >

> > Probably better off putting in orbs into their gear.

>

> I'd argue it matters from LV 39 to 60....and same applies to sigils.

>

> Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean they are unimportant. Otherwise why even have sigils or runes in the game before LV 60?

>

> Having items in game that serve no purpose = bad design

> Having items in game that serve a purpose but are unnecessarily difficult to acquire so as to discourage people from doing so = bad design

>

> So let's talk about moving towards "good design", shall we?

I wouldn't be surprised if ANet came to the same line of thinking when designing the new system. Effectively they've pretty much removed the low-level upgrades that had a very small impact on gameplay and instead turned them into sources of crafting material for endgame upgrades instead.

[Lanhelin.3480]

Imho it'd be much more helpful to increase the extraordinary low drop rate of charms and symbols when salvaging runes and sigils. Or to add recipes to get these from another source too besides from salvaging only.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > When was the last time you cared about rune bonuses before superior tier? When was the last time a new player cared about that stuff because whatever they drop or get from level up rewards had a different one anyway and there is no tutorial? No, I don't think that's an argument for it either. Runes are largely meaningless. They matter when you have geared up already, when you have the gear you are planning to use. That's when you want to have the last bit(s) of "gear progression", which in this case means a rune set that gives you the bonus you want to have. Don't pretend like players are missing out on something huge. Look at the green and yellow runes and tell me again that they are relevant.

> >

> > Probably better off putting in orbs into their gear.

>

> I'd argue it matters from LV 39 to 60....and same applies to sigils.

>

> Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean they are unimportant. Otherwise why even have sigils or runes in the game before LV 60?

>

> Having items in game that serve no purpose = bad design

> Having items in game that serve a purpose but are unnecessarily difficult to acquire so as to discourage people from doing so = bad design

>

> So let's talk about moving towards "good design", shall we?

 

6 silver on the TP (major sigil of force, major sigil of air), the cost of few wp trips = unnecessarily difficult to acquire?

 

I mean we got some ones are 10-15s.... But level 40-60 has it easy making gold simply from salvaging drops.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cotton_Scrap

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coarse_Leather_Section

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Linen_Scrap