Can we plz get rid of sick em and attack of opportunity?

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"myboybuzzy.5809" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

> >

> > Just run cheetah...

>

> And have absolute trash beastmode skills? Yeah, hard pass.

 

Your answer was imba :D

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > @"myboybuzzy.5809" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > I would be okay with Sic 'Em changing if it got replaced with something actually interesting that brings solid utility. Like a big leap with a reveal so it can help with pets sticking to the targets too.

> > >

> > > Just run cheetah...

> >

> > And have absolute trash beastmode skills? Yeah, hard pass.

>

> Your answer was imba :D

 

'Twas just a suggestion that would make sense with the overall purpose and theme of the skill. I just don't want Sic 'Em to be overnerfed to uselessness because of complaints.

[CETheLucid.3964]

How about no?

 

It's a one trick glass build without any of the thief/deadeye shenanigans that make such builds almost viable and if you can't kill it by sneezing on it you should feel bad. Reading a rangers LB AA or Rapid Fire attack isn't very difficult.

 

The only place it really shines is messing with zerg stragglers or catching scholar roamers by surprise in WvW and even then beefier builds are going to survive your burst and probably kill you. Excellent players and WvW montage videos make it look better than it really is.

 

The montage videos often don't show you the bad match ups and the follow up spanking they get.

 

Pretty hit and miss in PvP from what I've witnessed. Sometimes Sic em' really can screw over a thief and the burst can melt a squishy quite handily, looks awesome when it works out.

 

But I haven't had the motivation to build it there yet since most of the time that build tends to lose the game as they've given up all their survivability on the hope and prayer they can burst everything like a poor man's thief/deadeye.

 

When it doesn't work out? They're the ones being bursted. By non-bursty builds.

[Undertow.2389]

Just to correct this again, since I've seen it before: sic 'em is indeed 40% when melded in spvp, not only 25%. It takes all of 30 seconds to verify; use a skill like barrage with a static damage per hit (no random variance) and make sure there's no might or vuln involved. For example, 383 damage without it, 536 with it right now. 536/383 = 140%.

 

IMO it is bad for the game. In general, not just soulbeast, damage is too high compared to hp pools from years of power creep, especially with all the power build buffs post HoT because everyone was playing condi in raid pve. The only "good" builds are the ones with equally overpowered defenses, through either constant protection uptime like boonbeast, firebrand support and/or endless evades, blocks, invulns, and stealths (especially if you can do damage while doing so). See mirage, spellbreaker, holosmith, etc.

 

 

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> Soulbeast dmg buffs when melted with pet:

>

> 1.) Sick em gives 40 % dmg increase for EVERY skill you use for 10 seconds.

> 2.) attack of opportunity by GS2: gives you 25 % dmg on the next attack. you can get this buff by using GS2 (4 sec cd).

>

> both dmg multiplicators due to absurd dmg Spikes of rangers that are beyond everything that EVER existed in the game. e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for **PETS**. not for the ranger himself.

>

> and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd. its on the same broken Level like condi Mirage.

>

>

ahahah... just try next time not to eat all the burst from the ranger. Me as an zerg scourge or roam soulbeast i don't have any trouble with enemy soulbeasts.

 

My advise for you is to make a ranger and learn to play with it so you see its weakness. Otherwise you will always find something to complain for, the pets, the soulbeast, the shouts, the pets skills....

[Eramonster.2718]

Broadening the horizon is always good.

[Shivvies.3921]

In other words "make it so that Ranger is only viable as druid in pve"?

[Eleazar.9478]

Sure after necros loose shroud and can only do single target damage

[Jimbru.6014]

When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

[beatthedown.2651]

 

*evil laughter*

[bigo.9037]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

 

so just because more players are in pve we should ignore pvp balance?

 

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Undertow.2389" said:

> Just to correct this again, since I've seen it before: sic 'em is indeed 40% when melded in spvp, not only 25%. It takes all of 30 seconds to verify; use a skill like barrage with a static damage per hit (no random variance) and make sure there's no might or vuln involved. For example, 383 damage without it, 536 with it right now. 536/383 = 140%.

>

I suspect the "sic'em does only 25%" comes from someone misunderstanding that it is AoO from Maul that gives 25% on SB and 50% to pet and then no one ever fact checked it. Just double checked myself and I'm also getting 40% from sic'em in PvP and WvW.

 

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> >e.g. 10k+ AA on LB for 10 seconds. both dmg multiplicators were introduced to the game as dmg modifiers for **PETS**. not for the ranger himself.

> > and i am tired of trying to dodge a "burst skill" that is in fact an AA from LB or getting nuked with 30k+ dmg from a skill that has 4 sec cd.

> >

> >

> These numbers (30k+ maul and 10k+ AA lb) don't happen for every soulbeast that uses the two skills you're complaining about. To get those numbers, a soulbeast runs MM/BM, stacking the dmg modifiers from MM. An overhaul of MM is something Anet should do at some point. Its minors are trash; soulbeasts run it for Remorseless and Moment of Clarity. One simple change Anet could do to curtail the dmg modifiers without hurting core ranger would be making it so MoC's 50% doesn't stack with the 25% from the soulbeast version of Maul. As the traits/skills work now, there's 25% from Attack of Opportunity (Maul), 25% from Remorseless, 40% from soulbeast's Sic 'Em, and 50% from MoC, adding up to 140% for an attack.

>

I shall quote myself from awhile ago to add to the MM MoC/Maul AoO discussion since I don't think enough people understand how crazy this can get in WvW.

 

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> These are PvE tests will full zerker PvE armor but they shed light into mechanics with MoC and AoO. Since I'm by myself with this, I have to test vs PvE mobs to reduce randomness with interrupt procs. I have zero buffs and have stacked zero vuln on the target.

> https://imgur.com/a/6U7SWCr

> 1) My first world impact is 20.4k. A shark bit me for 2.5k right before. With my 17.4k health, that means I lost my double scholar bonus.

> 2) The 39k and 40.9k you can see have interrupts proc right before I hit the sand shark and I had my full scholar bonus from not being hit. I also pre-cast Maul for the 25% AoO bonus.

> 3) The 31.3k is also an interrupt but no maul precast.

> 4) The 23.3k was a standard Sic'em F3 nothing else.

>

> Situation 2 and 3 both have full scholar bonus and interrupt --> MoC procs. The difference between 3 and 2 is about 25% from the math which matches with pre-cassted Maul's AoO being 25%. The difference between 3 and 4 is an interrupt MoC AoO which is a 50%. Math adds up. I repeat, I had zero might/vuln being applied here but this is of course PvE gear. All of these were remorseless opening strikes which also adds 25% to a single hit. All of them of course also had Sic'em when I cast F3.

 

With the new runes/sigils, I could probably make those numbers crazier. When you hit that hard from stealth, defensive traits don't even proc. I agree with you that AoO from Maul/MoC shouldn't stack. **Maybe split sic'em on SB between PvE (40%) and WvW (actually 25%)**? Not sure about PvP. **They could also make the SB Maul self buff last only 2-3 seconds instead of 10.** As someone that actually uses glass cannon sic'em builds in all game modes, I could get behind these changes. These nerfs would also not affect PvE DPS SB so PvE only ppl shouldn't complain.

 

I used to think some of these interactions were not intended (Especially with beastly warden/live fast WI combo). However, the new GS trait was changed to give fury on CC. This makes the MoC/remorseless double buff so much easier to pull off. However, this is a base ranger interaction and this combo gives a reaction time to stunbreak/dodge after CC so I don't think it's the real problem. The wiffed Maul in stealth/sic'em combo does not give any tell. Even if it is "balanced" due to how glassy it is, can anyone watch the above video and think "that's fun to play against?"

 

**They could give Sic'em a minor damage component on cast.** This would waste all the single proc alpha strike mods from stealth. So no AoO via Maul or MoC, nor remorseless on a sic'em 1 hit KO straight out of stealth. You have to "mark" your target with sic'em which wastes the opening strike, then gain the fury/interrupt procs in "fair combat" before 1 hit KOing people although the WI/BW/LF combo would work. SB and DE both need some kind of "rebalance/rework" to the full glass builds to make them more fair/fun to fight against.

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> Please dont take this video too seriously

 

You know they will.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > Please dont take this video too seriously

>

> You know they will.

 

Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> >

> > You know they will.

>

> Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

 

Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits. The second DD took a 14k hit and also died. 17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy. 17k on a Druid. 21-23k is the upper limit for axe 3 in the video. Those are all elite specs so they are all lvl 80 too. Are you really going to look at that amount of variance in how much damage (12k to 23k) people take and conclude that they are all "glass cannons"?

 

Going from 2.1k armor to 2.6k armor is only ~20% damage reduction while prot is 33%. Prot brings a 22k crit down to ~14.5k. The 20% dmg reduction of 500 extra toughness brings that down to ~12k that the firebrand took. So no, 500 extra toughness isn't enough to survive an axe3 ambush. Do you really think a "tanky" enemy is somehow going to instantly turn around and 100-0 a glass cannon from 10% health? You need to remove the scholar buffs, apply weakness etc before the first hit from the SB ever happens.

 

I pose the question again, do you think it's fun to fight that kind of build in wvw? Do deadeyes "only 1 shot glass cannons?" Does 500 toughness suddenly make all other attacks aside from the first hit do zero damage?

 

It's one thing when I go glass in PvP: It's a set 5v5. Even if I destroy my enemies in the opening fight, my enemies can try to adapt, call target and focus me until 500 points are scored. They are, in theory, intensely focused on the match and try to pay attention to my location and can kite/hide behind walls/double team me when sic'em is up. If they stick together, even if I down 1 person, their teammates can try to retaliate. They or I may not succeed but I don't feel bad for my enemies there.

 

It's another thing when you walk around for 10 minutes in wvw to the other side of the map, maybe cap a camp, fight 2 npcs then suddenly explode in an open field. I realize Anet doesn't specifically balance for WvW 1v1 roaming but if there are ways to reduce the insane spikes while not nerfing boon best/base ranger, why is that a problem?

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"bigo.9037" said:

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > When Mirages and Thieves lose their ridiculous ability to perpetually dodge, vanish, escape, ambush, etc. while still doing insta-kill DPS, then maybe we'll talk about what needs nerfed on Ranger. Or any other class for that matter. Stop trying to balance around PVP and WVW modes when the majority of the game is and always will be PVE.

>

> so just because more players are in pve we should ignore pvp balance?

>

>

It would be nice for a change, I'm tired of our pets being gutted because of whiny PVPers.

 

[beatthedown.2651]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> >

> > You know they will.

>

> Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

 

I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> **They could give Sic'em a minor damage component on cast.** This would waste all the single proc alpha strike mods from stealth. So no AoO via Maul or MoC, nor remorseless on a sic'em 1 hit KO straight out of stealth. You have to "mark" your target with sic'em which wastes the opening strike, then gain the fury/interrupt procs in "fair combat" before 1 hit KOing people although the WI/BW/LF combo would work. SB and DE both need some kind of "rebalance/rework" to the full glass builds to make them more fair/fun to fight against.

>

just to add it here: currently the effect placed on the opponent from sic em (reveal) is not dodgeable, adding damage most probably will make it dodgeable wich would be a huge nerf to its reveal chance. as a mostly deadeye myself i mostly get hit by this reveal during a dodge. not sure if that reveal has any restrictions at all atm aside from having a target, but if it gets damage attached to it, it would be as unreliable as rev reveal.

as for making them more fun to fight against i am all for it, altho i think there will allways be a way to 'gank' people and if it requires superior numbers. but when reworking it the context of the mode allways has to be kept in mind. many suggestions however are based on isolated 1vs1 fights, wich dont exist outside of guild arena / custom arena.

 

[LughLongArm.5460]

The only nerf I think they should consider is that the bonus attack of opportunity from maul should be given only if the maul successfully strike something.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Sick'em should be a pull instead a damage boost. Rangers have hardly enough ways to pull enemies in.

Pull 5 enemies in, immobilize, and give them revealed for 6 seconds, and 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds, and reduce the damage boost to just 10 to 20%.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> > >

> > > You know they will.

> >

> > Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> > He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

>

> Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits. The second DD took a 14k hit and also died. 17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy. 17k on a Druid. 21-23k is the upper limit for axe 3 in the video. Those are all elite specs so they are all lvl 80 too. Are you really going to look at that amount of variance in how much damage (12k to 23k) people take and conclude that they are all "glass cannons"?

>

> Going from 2.1k armor to 2.6k armor is only ~20% damage reduction while prot is 33%. Prot brings a 22k crit down to ~14.5k. The 20% dmg reduction of 500 extra toughness brings that down to ~12k that the firebrand took. So no, 500 extra toughness isn't enough to survive an axe3 ambush. Do you really think a "tanky" enemy is somehow going to instantly turn around and 100-0 a glass cannon from 10% health? You need to remove the scholar buffs, apply weakness etc before the first hit from the SB ever happens.

>

> I pose the question again, do you think it's fun to fight that kind of build in wvw? Do deadeyes "only 1 shot glass cannons?" Does 500 toughness suddenly make all other attacks aside from the first hit do zero damage?

>

> It's one thing when I go glass in PvP: It's a set 5v5. Even if I destroy my enemies in the opening fight, my enemies can try to adapt, call target and focus me until 500 points are scored. They are, in theory, intensely focused on the match and try to pay attention to my location and can kite/hide behind walls/double team me when sic'em is up. If they stick together, even if I down 1 person, their teammates can try to retaliate. They or I may not succeed but I don't feel bad for my enemies there.

>

> It's another thing when you walk around for 10 minutes in wvw to the other side of the map, maybe cap a camp, fight 2 npcs then suddenly explode in an open field. I realize Anet doesn't specifically balance for WvW 1v1 roaming but if there are ways to reduce the insane spikes while not nerfing boon best/base ranger, why is that a problem?

 

I am trying to find the reason you quote me ... why? because:

1. I said that all enemies are glass cannon due the fact their toughness is 1000 - 1200. Also, like you said prot has 33% damage reduction, but most of the enemies were sleeping or were very-very bad.

2. I played this build many times, on my server, and in my Tier I never shot down someone as he did. Even with 25 stacks of might. Why? Because usual ppl in Higher Tier WvW are not going with low Toughness/Armor when 90% of builds are based on power.

3. I don't know where did you get the idea that I thought that build is fun to play, please hold your horses and don't make an assumption for something I didn't say or though.

4. Yesterday I met 2 players from Desolation border, one was Deadeye and one was Berserker with Rifle. Their damage outstands mine, and they survivability in zerk build was much, much, much higher ... And they could kill a player with a balance build (toughness, vitality, protection) without dying.

5. Conclusion: still I don't know why did you quote me, and yes there are 3 classes at least (deadeye, mesmer and berserk rifle) who can play glass cannon in WvW, could kill bunker class and still they can survive and go away after that. Instead, I didn't see any glass cannon ranger who can do this, none!

 

PS: Desolation is in top 3 Tier 1 WvW.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> > >

> > > You know they will.

> >

> > Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> > He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

>

> I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

 

Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

 

I am asking you this because I did some calculation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) , on this we could add Vulnerability, Attack of Opportunity and ofc Crit Damage.

If we take Maul, like ranger from the video :

Damage done = 1100 (ascended weapon) * 3158 (numbers from zerk build) * 1.75 (Maul skill-specific coefficient) / 3300 (your druid armor as you said) =

Damage done = 6,079,150 / 3300 = 1,842 + 1,842 * 250% (crit damage from zerk build) = 1,842+4,605 = 6,448 on this we will add 25% Attack of Opportunity so

Damage done = 6,448 + 6,448 * 25% = 6,448 + 1,612 = 8,059 let's say he has Vulnerability from Maul, so we add another 5% damage = 8,059 + 8,059*25% =

Damage done = 8,059 + 403 = **8,462**

Maybe my calculation are not very accurate, but still from 8,462 damage to 32,000 it is a looooong way.

Instead, if he was without 3.3k armor, but only 1k armor (as glass cannon build) total damage could be = 6,079,150 / 1000 = 6,079 + all adds you could hit a damage = 28 k ...

[beatthedown.2651]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> > > >

> > > > You know they will.

> > >

> > > Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> > > He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

> >

> > I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

>

> Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

 

He literally told me "wtf I have 3.3k armor". Of course no need to believe me. Try it out yourself. You could probably hit even harder.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > > > @"beatthedown.2651" said:

> > > > > > Please dont take this video too seriously

> > > > >

> > > > > You know they will.

> > > >

> > > > Every enemy he killed in this video was glass cannon. With his build, on a top tier he can't do anything. If you try this build on someone with a decent build, with at least 1500 toughness means 2.6k armor, and if that someone didn't sleep, you don't have any chance, you will die after the first attack.

> > > > He looks enough time/days for these glass cannon players who were not paying attention too.

> > >

> > > I oneshotted a Druid with 3.3k armor with around 32k the other day. I had no night bonus or bloodlust. Of course it's a non competitive Meme build, but armor (without Protection) does not matter really.

> >

> > Can you tell me please how did you know that he was with 3.3k armor ? Did you ask him? Or he told you?

>

> He literally told me "kitten I have 3.3k armor". Of course no need to believe me. Try it out yourself. You could probably hit even harder.

 

If you take a look above your answer, you will see I did some calculation.

In the meantime, I calculated again, and the numbers are these:

vs 3.3k armor you could do 9,381 damage

vs 1k armor you could do 30,958 damage

 

with 25 stacks of might the numbers are:

 

vs 3.3k armor you could do 11,728 damage

vs 1k armor you could do 38,703 damage

 

Maybe I am wrong, please someone correct me

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> Except the 2nd enemy (Firebrand with protection) took 12k from the first hit for ~90% of his health and died in 2 hits.

 

Guardian with full berserk armor+accesories = 12,800 HP , so yes if he got 11,517 damage and he remai with 5% of his HP, yes we can say that he has 12k HP

 

>The second DD took a 14k hit and also died.

 

Thief berserker = 12,800 HP , so if he was hit with 13,871 and he was down, we can say he was glass cannon

 

>17k hit on a Herald for the 4th enemy.

 

Revenant full berserker = 17,514 HP , after first hit 17,348 he was with 27% HP, maybe he wasn't glass cannon, but almost (remember that the numbers I'll give about HP with berserker armor+accesories are without any traits, so for Guardian, DD, Revenant etc their HP could be a little bit higher from their traits lines)

 

>17k on a Druid

 

Druid berserker = 17,514 HP (without bonus from traits lines), hi died from 17,886 when he had 75% HP.

 

Soulbeast died from 18,969 damage , again yes was berserker with 17k-18k HP

 

So, yes, I am more than sure that most of them were a glass cannon or berserker armor+accesorie (or any kind of ... assasin etc, something without toughness)