Tails.9372 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tails.9372" said: > A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient. A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 23 more weeks to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. If they ever introduce Fractals Leg Armor, it would be tied to Masteries I guess, that are impossible to get without expansions > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > A legendary set should be a reward that shows a players general dedication to the related content (as it is the case for every currently available legendary armor set) which is why "grind only" should be sufficient. > > A grind option is a available. You can complete escort 150 weeks in a row for the li and grind open world for gold to buy raid kills. Escort is open world difficulty completable by all. It's been 127 weeks since escort was released so only 13 more weeks to go! that isn't a grind, that is more of cheesing :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Fractals, or at least CM's, feel more and more dead, and urgently need a big incentive to bring people back or into that content. Additionally I really like the aesthetic of some of the Fractal Weapons, and wanted to have a prestige armour in that style for a long time. By making it require the Fractal titles, as high as Fractal God maybe, it would already be the harshest requirement of the Legendary armours, as that is easily 6k gold, so it woulnd't really deter people from getting into Raids for just the legendary armour alone, as it would still be by far the fastest way to earn one. So as long as it requires CM completions and at least some investment into the Fractals Titles (at least Prodigy or Champion), I would be all for it. Probably not going to happen though. Especially CM's, need additional development and/or incentives though, or the player base will just dry up completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? Against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > Against. Because it would take players away from Raiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > Against. > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game. I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons. Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > > > > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > > > Against. > > > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? > > It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game. > > I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons. > > Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravitate towards fractals or raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > > > > > > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > > > > > Against. > > > > > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? > > > > It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game. > > > > I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons. > > > > Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. > > Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids? Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Nah, the main issue is that _everyone_ can attempt to pursue a gen1 legendary weapon. For some it may take years, but they will stil be able to walk on that path. In case of armor though, only raiders (and now PvPers of both modes) can do so. > > > > > > > I don't think the justification is really true. Players that are willing to spend years working towards legendary equipment always have the option of buying raid kills. > No. _People that can afford to buy a legendary out of their pocket money because they're in a hurry_ have option of buying raid kills. Those that pursue legendary for extended amount of time by just playing usually don't have that option. Do fractal dailies-> acquire 1.5k gold in less than 3 months. Patient players earn more gold per hour than impatient players, because they have the option of doing the efficient daily content for all of their gold. A player that wants to earn 1.5k gold in a week has to resort to less efficient options like open world farms. Your argument that players in a rush can buy raid kills is completely backwards. Patient players are in a much better position to do so. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > I've ran the math before on these forums, and if a player is willing to do a weekly clear of escort, spirit woods, and twisted castle, they can buy all other kills they need and get legendary armor in less than a year while only doubling the cost. > Yes, but they'd still have to raid. Spirit woods and twisted castle literally don't have a boss in them, those events are raids in name only. Honestly, have you ever even done these events? I feel like someone who has ever done these events wouldn't pin their whole argument on them technically being considered raids. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: >Also, they'd need to get past the initial collection gate, which is unrealistic for most of the players. That's a very big threshold to pass. I think your misunderstanding my entire point. Buying every kill to do that collection is 1.5k gold last I checked prices. The remaining 130 ish LI can be grinded with 2 or 3 weekly events that award LI, 2 of which don't have a boss at all, and have a near zero chance of failure. So again, I will repeat myself, by doubling the cost of legendary armor, you can get legendary armor without ever killing a raid boss. A factor of 2. We are not talking orders of magnitude. Buying raid kills is perceived as expensive because players incorrectly think they need to buy 150 kills. But getting raid armor without raiding only takes twice as much money as getting the raid armor with raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > > > > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > > > Against. > > > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? > > It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game. > > I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons. > > Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. I already have Legendary Armor, so this isn’t a selfish act to push my own agenda. I think there might be people that like doing Fractals, but perhaps don’t like raids. Maybe they find fractals more accessible, I don’t know. What I am an advocate for is choice and options. Just like the Sigil of Nullification, buy off the tp or craft yourself. I honestly think adding a Legendary Fractal would be a good option for those Fractal enthusiasts and those that want Legendary Armor, but don’t want to Raid. I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > People have mentioned downsides, which are substantial: there would be some disincentive to raid, there would be an influx of people who don't bother to learn how to fractal, hoping to cash in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more downside, that is also important, is that Envoy Armor is not locked just in Raids, it's locked behind Heart of Thorns Raids. You can't get Envoy Armor by running Path of Fire Raids. Adding another PVE version of Legendary Armor (in Core content!) like Fractals is not only going to remove incentive from running Heart of Thorns Raids but also remove incentive from playing (and even buying?) Heart of Thorns in general. While also make it very hard to justify adding another Legendary Armor set in a future expansion, either in future Raids (unlikely) or in any other part of a future expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They already do this naturally by telling players that Raids are not for everybody and thus stating that Legendary Armor is not for everybody. Which from a marketing stand point is shooting themselves in the foot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Um, no. Raids are marketed to a different group of players and the mode has been apparently (according to ANet) more successful than they expected. It draws in and retains players interested in challenging content. The exclusive armor skin is part of the draw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an existing discussion over whether it's best for the game to attract that niche of players (ANet clearly thinks so; some players clearly disagree) and a separate argument about whether there should be any exclusive rewards (that's a generic question about game design). In the end, however, it's ANet's game and their future that depends on ANet making a good choice. And since they have 10+ years of success at it, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know better than we do about what will be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what Madd was saying is that if you introduce Fractal Legendary Armor you are telling players not to buy Heart of Thorns because that’s the only current way to get PVE Legendary Armor, through raids. What I’m saying is that they are already telling people that this Armor isn’t for you, if you don’t have the skill for raiding, which in and of itself not really beneficial to entice people to buy Heart of Thorns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like how so many PvE rewards aren’t for PvP players then (and vice versa)? This isn’t Anet telling people that this isn’t for them but the players doing it to themselves. Everyone has the capacity to get better at raids but they choose not to do so assuming they even try in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m pretty sure Anet came out and said that up front. Crystal Reid if I recall. > > > > > > > > > > She said from a skill perspective. That's different. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > > > > > > > Against. > > > > > > > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? > > > > > > It would take away those solely doing raids for legendary armor. There’s also no need for another set in the game. > > > > > > I’m not against Anet releasing a new armor skin set though such as one that shares the theme of fractal weapons. > > > > > > Let’s all be honest that people here are wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. > > > > Do you think given the choice between Raids and Fractals, if both had Legendary Armor sets, that people would naturally gravity towards fractals or raids? > > Fractals because it would be the next best thing to an easy mode. No different had legendary armor been released to fractals only and then offered for doing core Tyria world bosses. Players would then do core Tyria world bosses because that would be easier. Won't it make clear who is there to raid and enjoy the content and who is there to farm legendary armor? And again wvw/pvp legendary armors are way ahead of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"phs.6089" said: > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? You can get precursor armor but those need HoT https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gift_of_Competitive_Dedication Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? > > https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I Well that's a good thing and I honestly didn't know that and there is nothing on the wiki about it. So scratch the "it will remove incentives for HoT" argument, provided the proposed fractal armor does the same. Moving on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? > > https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I Is that also the same for the WvW too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > > > > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? > > > > https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I > > Is that also the same for the WvW too? Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > > > > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > > > > > > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I > > > > Is that also the same for the WvW too? > > Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same. I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > > > > > > Just saying Legendary PvP armor is also locked behind HoT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not locked behind HoT, it's locked behind any expansion, current and future one. Envoy armor is locked specifically behind HoT. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly it is. I have an alt with PoF only, would you like some screenshots? > > > > > > > > > > Which part of it can't you buy without HoT? > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/Al7DO8I > > > > > > Is that also the same for the WvW too? > > > > Prolly I don't wvw and know very little of it. But given not shiny wvw legendary was added with pvp one, should be same. > > I would assume the components of the gift of war dedication are also locked. Good to know. Fractal Armor would likely require a gift of Fractal dedication, which they could lock behind Heart of Thorns. Done and done. Just went to visit Warmaster Razor on PoF account, for science. It's same for WvW. Legendary parts are for HoT only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Sorry Ayrilana, are you for or against Legendary Fractal Armor? > > > > Against. > > Because it would take players away from Raiding? If you haven't noticed yet, Ayrilana is always against anything that changes the current status quo. So, now it's against fractal armor, but if Anet decided to implement it tomorrow, we'd hear a resounding defence of it instead. > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > Let’s all be honest here that people are only wanting legendary armor to be obtainable in fractals because they know they can’t get an easy mode in raids so this is the next best thing. I have my envoy set already, thank you very much. It didn't change my position on raids and legendary armor exclusivity even a little bit. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I’m not sure why raiders would feel threatened by another unique set of Legendary Armor in a completely different pve game type. Unless they feel that Raids are simply so shallow that if introduced, Raids would somehow collapse and not be completed. That’s kinda what it sounds like to me. That's how it sounds to me as well. It does seem like many raiders feel that there aren't all that many players that are interested in raids themselves, and they are being sustained only due to the people that came there to farm exclusives (and if those players were given any other option, the "true raiders" would end up alone in a mostly abandoned content). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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