why necromancer is one of the lowest DPS profession in the game

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> OK let's go with this line of thinking.

>

> People want high performance, so I set the filter on 99% and 90%.

> For fun, I pick warrior because I think warrior is a desirable class. I set filter for all raids.

>

> Warrior is #1 for power, #4 for condi and #5 for support.

> As another check, I verify if warrior ranks for individual bosses are reported correctly by the OP ... and they are. NICE!

>

> So here we are, with a class that on average does #1 in power and #4 condi DPS and has respectable #5 rank in support (whatever that is) ... yet is SECOND LAST when you look over all raid bosses in the 90% and 99% range. If I change my filters to 50% and 60%, warrior takes a MASSIVE DPS downgrade, more inline with the 8th place ranking. In fact, if you look at the top three power DPS classes, they are the last 3 classes on the ranking list provided by the OP ... so what's going on here?

>

> Maybe (and it makes sense) that the average numbers are heavily skewed to low performances. Maybe DPS isn't the deciding factor for high performance players? That last one is speculation.

>

> So now I look at Necro in the same way. I set my filter to 50% and 60% ... necro is about the middle power, low condi and mid support.

> I do the same for the filter @ 90% and 99%. It's top in power, middle in condi and middle in support.

>

> PS ... site is annoying because it won't sort from highest to lowest.

>

> SO the question for me is: **How did the OP conclude Necro was one of the lowest DPS classes?** That's not what the data says.

 

It's exactly what the data says. I think u just don't understand how he tried to tell us.

 

He looked at the DPS and he did compare it to the best DPS class.

So class a does 10k DPS is placed first

Class b does 9k DPS is placed second

And and and...

All for one boss.

 

So if I take his vale guardian: necro is sixth best DPS.

 

But the problem is, that necro is never place 3 or higher > which indicates that it's DPS is too low.

 

>

> You know what I DO see? I DO see that Necro doesn't bring very many team buffs. Here is my hypothesis:

>

> **It's difficult for necros to get PUGs because they don't have team buffs, not because they don't have DPS.**

>

>

I'd say both. Leave necro as it is right now, give it a team buff that adds 2-3k DPS to the group. Done.

There will be a lot of necros running around.

 

Yes we already have this. It's called vampiric presence, but in order to use this, you have to sacrifice 2-3k personal DPS.

And to make it work properly, everyone in your group has to hit the enemy once every half second, without hitting a trashmob, to get that DPS on the boss.

 

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

 

> >

> I'd say both. Leave necro as it is right now, give it a team buff that adds 2-3k DPS to the group. Done.

> There will be a lot of necros running around.

>

just to add to that,also according to raidar. in this this patch circle, power necro is one of the least played power classes. behind (ignoring hipster builds) are only : dps chrono, spb & p herald.

on condi though is 3rd place behind mirage & berserker (including BS)

un support also on 3rd spot behind chrono & druid (excluding BS since i put it in dps stats)

 

not wanting to say anything with this information, but i find it quite interesting ^^

 

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

>

> > >

> > I'd say both. Leave necro as it is right now, give it a team buff that adds 2-3k DPS to the group. Done.

> > There will be a lot of necros running around.

> >

> just to add to that,also according to raidar. in this this patch circle, power necro is one of the least played power classes. behind (ignoring hipster builds) are only : dps chrono, spb & p herald.

> on condi though is 3rd place behind mirage & berserker (including BS)

> un support also on 3rd spot behind chrono & druid (excluding BS since i put it in dps stats)

>

> not wanting to say anything with this information, but i find it quite interesting ^^

>

 

A team buff (dps or sustain) in Death Magic has been on my wish list.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Revamp of BM line,insta tele Wurm,one good low duration block and grave digger changed to a spin leap gap closer would be my wish list, pls Santa lol

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > OK let's go with this line of thinking.

> >

> > People want high performance, so I set the filter on 99% and 90%.

> > For fun, I pick warrior because I think warrior is a desirable class. I set filter for all raids.

> >

> > Warrior is #1 for power, #4 for condi and #5 for support.

> > As another check, I verify if warrior ranks for individual bosses are reported correctly by the OP ... and they are. NICE!

> >

> > So here we are, with a class that on average does #1 in power and #4 condi DPS and has respectable #5 rank in support (whatever that is) ... yet is SECOND LAST when you look over all raid bosses in the 90% and 99% range. If I change my filters to 50% and 60%, warrior takes a MASSIVE DPS downgrade, more inline with the 8th place ranking. In fact, if you look at the top three power DPS classes, they are the last 3 classes on the ranking list provided by the OP ... so what's going on here?

> >

> > Maybe (and it makes sense) that the average numbers are heavily skewed to low performances. Maybe DPS isn't the deciding factor for high performance players? That last one is speculation.

> >

> > So now I look at Necro in the same way. I set my filter to 50% and 60% ... necro is about the middle power, low condi and mid support.

> > I do the same for the filter @ 90% and 99%. It's top in power, middle in condi and middle in support.

> >

> > PS ... site is annoying because it won't sort from highest to lowest.

> >

> > SO the question for me is: **How did the OP conclude Necro was one of the lowest DPS classes?** That's not what the data says.

>

> It's exactly what the data says. I think u just don't understand how he tried to tell us.

 

Now hold on … it’s NOT exactly what the data says.

 

If I put the filters set to all raids, 90% and 99%, a power reaper is a top 3 DPS according to the data; there is no question. That means in top performing raids with top performing players, power reaper damage is NOT low; they are 3rd overall. So how does someone conclude **generally** that necros have low DPS? That makes no sense; it's simply not a correct statement. It’s without context and one could hypothesize that if someone has low DPS, it’s a L2P issue because clearly for top rank power reapers, the idea they have low DPS is is wrong.

 

The point here is that no one should be jumping to the conclusion that necros struggle to get groups because of low DPS, especially if the data contradicts the conclusion.

 

There are actually many reasons one could think of to explain necro teaming struggles despite their not-low power reaper DPS in the high performance range of players:

 

1. The lack of a team buff

2. Overall raid design favours condi damage (where necros are just average)

3. Necro class performance drops faster relative to other classes as players skill drops.

4. People making teams are just ignorant/stubborn

 

Their might be more reasons but the point here is that ‘not enough DPS’ isn’t the ONLY reason. Here is the best part; even if necros get more DPS, why would that compel any team to take them if any or all of the above reasons could be true? Think about it … pretend I’m a 99% percentile power reaper player that achieves top 3 DPS overall. The data suggests there is no reason from a **DPS perspective** that any team should refuse me. Granted, some teams fall into reason 4 and nothing will change that. But for teams that don’t fall into reason 4, DPS **can’t** be a reason why a group won’t take a necro. Maybe what’s happening here is that people are making reason 4 seem more frequent than it actually is to push an agenda. Recall, the OP is the same guy that thinks Anet should [give necro OPed skills because he simply wants to win PVP](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54125/nightfall-destroy-projectiles/p1 "give necro OPed skills because he simply wants to win PVP").

 

TLDR: without more context, no one should conclude low DPS is why necros get refused by some teams.

[DragonFury.6243]

sure no one with a brain will kick necro doing 27.5k DPS on Cairn while NO.1 profession doing 35.9K DPS

you must feel bad to kick a player that doing 90% of his job correctly

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> sure no one with a brain will kick necro doing 27.5k DPS on Cairn while NO.1 profession doing 35.9K DPS

> you must feel bad to kick a player that doing 90% of his job correctly

 

As I already said, there are many plausible reasons why people aren't taking necros and thinking that this is JUST a DPS problem is narrowminded and probably not the most significant barrier to getting a team.

 

If you are going to throw around the idea that necro has low DPS, you aren't being honest. As the data you point us to indicates, that's generally not true.

 

Everyone reading this thread needs to ask themselves how a class that ranks 3rd overall in DPS as a power reaper among high performance players has such a low DPS standing when you look at individual and average raid ranking. How does someone resolve the discrepancy? That's important question because it really points towards why necros struggle to get teams.

 

For some reason the site is kaput right now but i recall thinking that even in 3rd place as a power reaper, it was only about 1500 DPS from 1st place. So even if you were to get 2000 DPS and top tier players make power reaper #1 ... how would that help you get teams? The whole idea doesn't make sense. 2000 DPS at that top teir does NOT translate into 2000 DPS where mere mortals are playing their power reapers. Anyone proposing that DPS would fix whatever teaming problem necros have is not demonstrating a depth of knowledge necessary to make such conclusions. The data just doesn't support it.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Farkon.2170" said:

> More skilled players play Necro for the challenge, so while it's still optimal, you have to put in 4x the amount of work towards it without top tier results.

 

Not only for the challenge, but the data actually shows that more skilled players using power reapers rank 3rd in DPS overall (or it did ... I guess the site reset or is doing some recalcs because I can't pull the data back up). It's simply not true that necro has low DPS. I mean, any class in the hands of a scrub player is going to do badly, yet somehow we are sitting here and debating if necro needs MORE DPS to reduce its teaming struggles when it ranks this high? That's just absurd.

 

This is why I dislike the metapushing mentality so badly; it's more important to be good at playing than it is to pick the 'right' class and the 'right' build. Meta does not mean success and it's a shame that some lower rank players doing PUGs have eaten these garbage ideas right up. If necros can't get groups, it's not because Anet did anything wrong. it's because players pushing meta.

[Insidion the Insane.9752]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If I put the filters set to all raids, 90% and 99%, a power reaper is a top 3 DPS according to the data; there is no question.

>

I'm honestly surprised nobody called you out on this. Since you are new at this I will just say, for future reference, that this is the last thing you should do when trying to compare DPS between classes. Even the site itself told you how skewed that data is , and I quote: "statistics that combine multiple encounters may be heavily skewed by the fact that different classes are used at different bosses, regardless of sample size". As of where you can find said quote, you can see it in this screenshot right here: https://imgur.com/a/d6aKkw9.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Insidion the Insane.9752" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If I put the filters set to all raids, 90% and 99%, a power reaper is a top 3 DPS according to the data; there is no question.

> >

> I'm honestly surprised nobody called you out on this. Since you are new at this I will just say, for future reference, that this is the last thing you should do when trying to compare DPS between classes. Even the site itself told you how skewed that data is , and I quote: "statistics that combine multiple encounters may be heavily skewed by the fact that different classes are used at different bosses, regardless of sample size". As of where you can find said quote, you can see it in this screenshot right here: https://imgur.com/a/d6aKkw9.

 

I'm honestly surprised you even **tried** calling me out on this. If the data on that site is skewed or bad, then it's it's that way for EVERYONE. The site actually DOESN'T tell you how skewed the data is; it tells you it CAN be skewed and if you got no problem with the OP using that site to justify why he thinks necro DPS is low, you shouldn't have a problem with me using the SAME DATA to challenge that premise ... unless you are trying to push an agenda like the OP is.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your double standard has something to do with the fact you don't like what I have to say. Call it deja vu but we already had this exchange about DPS balancing ... I remember you are the guy that [didn't think there was any significant reason to adjust PvE DPS if not for "Meta DPS balancing"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/47340/3-more-months-at-being-at-bottom-of-benchmark/p1 "didn't think there was any significant reason to adjust PvE DPS if not for "Meta DPS balancing""). If you are still in doubt that Anet makes game changes that affect balance that are not related to the meta, have a gander at the link in my sig. Here we are 6 months later ... you still think Anet is targeting that DPS meta balance?

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > OK let's go with this line of thinking.

> > >

> > > People want high performance, so I set the filter on 99% and 90%.

> > > For fun, I pick warrior because I think warrior is a desirable class. I set filter for all raids.

 

Lul. Did you even look at it? The DPS of that was at ~32-34k I believe.

Ever saw a reaper do that much DPS on golem?

 

Doing so much dmg, might come from conjured amalgamate. Where using swords counts as your own DPS.

So sorry. But nope. Still not good enough.

 

> > >

> > > Warrior is #1 for power, #4 for condi and #5 for support.

> > > As another check, I verify if warrior ranks for individual bosses are reported correctly by the OP ... and they are. NICE!

> > >

> > > So here we are, with a class that on average does #1 in power and #4 condi DPS and has respectable #5 rank in support (whatever that is) ... yet is SECOND LAST when you look over all raid bosses in the 90% and 99% range. If I change my filters to 50% and 60%, warrior takes a MASSIVE DPS downgrade, more inline with the 8th place ranking. In fact, if you look at the top three power DPS classes, they are the last 3 classes on the ranking list provided by the OP ... so what's going on here?

> > >

> > > Maybe (and it makes sense) that the average numbers are heavily skewed to low performances. Maybe DPS isn't the deciding factor for high performance players? That last one is speculation.

> > >

> > > So now I look at Necro in the same way. I set my filter to 50% and 60% ... necro is about the middle power, low condi and mid support.

> > > I do the same for the filter @ 90% and 99%. It's top in power, middle in condi and middle in support.

> > >

> > > PS ... site is annoying because it won't sort from highest to lowest.

> > >

> > > SO the question for me is: **How did the OP conclude Necro was one of the lowest DPS classes?** That's not what the data says.

 

Do you still not understand? Gosh. Why am I even discussing with you again?

 

So: he looked at every boss. Looked at the highest DPS option for every class available on this particular boss. Then made a ranking from 1-9, which class has the highest DPS, and which one the lowest.

 

> >

> > It's exactly what the data says. I think u just don't understand how he tried to tell us.

>

> Now hold on … it’s NOT exactly what the data says.

>

> If I put the filters set to all raids, 90% and 99%, a power reaper is a top 3 DPS according to the data; there is no question. That means in top performing raids with top performing players, power reaper damage is NOT low; they are 3rd overall. So how does someone conclude **generally** that necros have low DPS? That makes no sense; it's simply not a correct statement. It’s without context and one could hypothesize that if someone has low DPS, it’s a L2P issue because clearly for top rank power reapers, the idea they have low DPS is is wrong.

 

Nice, if power reaper gets played at only conjured amalgamate, sure it is top 3. But that doesn't reflect, on how it's doing on all other bosses.

You have to look at all bosses, one by one.

>

> The point here is that no one should be jumping to the conclusion that necros struggle to get groups because of low DPS, especially if the data contradicts the conclusion.

>

> There are actually many reasons one could think of to explain necro teaming struggles despite their not-low power reaper DPS in the high performance range of players:

>

> 1. The lack of a team buff

> 2. Overall raid design favours condi damage (where necros are just average)

> 3. Necro class performance drops faster relative to other classes as players skill drops.

> 4. People making teams are just ignorant/stubborn

>

> Their might be more reasons but the point here is that ‘not enough DPS’ isn’t the ONLY reason. Here is the best part; even if necros get more DPS, why would that compel any team to take them if any or all of the above reasons could be true? Think about it … pretend I’m a 99% percentile power reaper player that achieves top 3 DPS overall. The data suggests there is no reason from a **DPS perspective** that any team should refuse me. Granted, some teams fall into reason 4 and nothing will change that. But for teams that don’t fall into reason 4, DPS **can’t** be a reason why a group won’t take a necro. Maybe what’s happening here is that people are making reason 4 seem more frequent than it actually is to push an agenda. Recall, the OP is the same guy that thinks Anet should [give necro OPed skills because he simply wants to win PVP](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54125/nightfall-destroy-projectiles/p1 "give necro OPed skills because he simply wants to win PVP").

>

> TLDR: without more context, no one should conclude low DPS is why necros get refused by some teams.

 

 

[Insidion the Insane.9752]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Insidion the Insane.9752" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If I put the filters set to all raids, 90% and 99%, a power reaper is a top 3 DPS according to the data; there is no question.

> > >

> > I'm honestly surprised nobody called you out on this. Since you are new at this I will just say, for future reference, that this is the last thing you should do when trying to compare DPS between classes. Even the site itself told you how skewed that data is , and I quote: "statistics that combine multiple encounters may be heavily skewed by the fact that different classes are used at different bosses, regardless of sample size". As of where you can find said quote, you can see it in this screenshot right here: https://imgur.com/a/d6aKkw9.

>

> I'm honestly surprised you even **tried** calling me out on this.

Wait a minute... did you just admit on the get go that there is something wrong with your points that is so very obvious to all thus it need not be called out? Alright, I can accept that. Why the tone though? All I did was point out your mistake. Unless... **thinking intensifies**

But moving on, if you want to know my actual reason here it is: I believe your claim that "more skilled players using power reapers rank 3rd in DPS overall" is incorrect and the reason why you came to that conclusion is because of your use of heavily skewed data. If I ever used heavily skewed data in an argument, that is labeled as such by the provider, to support my claims I will be (and should be) laughed out of town. Of course, unless I am hoping that nobody will notice and call me out.

> If the data on that site is skewed or bad, then it's it's that way for EVERYONE. The site actually DOESN'T tell you how skewed the data is; it tells you it CAN be skewed and if you got no problem with the OP using that site to justify why he thinks necro DPS is low, you shouldn't have a problem with me using the SAME DATA to challenge that premise

OP used gw2raidar's stat filter for each boss ("Vale Guardian", "Gorseval", "Sabetha", etc.) for his post while you used the "All raid bosses" filter, by your own admission. Big difference.

> ... unless you are trying to push an agenda like the OP is.

What agenda? If it is pointing out necro's lower DPS compared to other classes so that it could be brought to par one day, then sure why not.

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your double standard has something to do with the fact you don't like what I have to say.

Please do not confuse disagreement with dislike. Though I'll give it to you, I do dislike leaving misinformation unchallenged and so here we are.

> Call it deja vu but we already had this exchange about DPS balancing ... I remember you are the guy that [didn't think there was any significant reason to adjust PvE DPS if not for "Meta DPS balancing"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/47340/3-more-months-at-being-at-bottom-of-benchmark/p1 "didn't think there was any significant reason to adjust PvE DPS if not for "Meta DPS balancing"").

You got me, you caught me red handed. Let's just say... those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

> If you are still in doubt that Anet makes game changes that affect balance that are not related to the meta, have a gander at the link in my sig. Here we are 6 months later ... you still think Anet is targeting that DPS meta balance?

And I still do, even after reading your link. But I do not wish to derail this thread and so I will say no more.