WvW role moving forward?

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp.

>

> They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify.

>

> Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff.

>

> Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again.

 

How about trying a DPS wells Chrono build?

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp.

> >

> > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify.

> >

> > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff.

> >

> > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again.

>

> How about trying a DPS wells Chrono build?

 

To put it in short: too slow, not enough impact as other dps.

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > > > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > > > > > I know of at least one player that only plays Mesmer **and** only plays WvW. So this idea of warranting a spot is irrelevant unless you have people that play Mesmer only when it is OP or if you have a hard limit on number of players (GvG).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mesmer will still have a place in WvW until another class can invis 20+ people better or portal people in and out of keeps or across chokepoints. There's plenty of classes that can do damage, but no class can turn the tide like a mesmer portal behind an unsuspecting group or via wasting all the enemy damage via fake veil push. You just don't stack one to two per party (guardian) or one per 5-10 (herald). You certainly don't stack them pretending they're scourges. People that actually have been playing Mesmer will keep playing it instead of complaining about every patch. Before Desert BL changes (marked debuff) I used to hide in keeps for multiple hours waiting for a commander tag (before "scout" designation in squad shared rewards) to flip keeps so Mesmer is truly a thankless profession.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Besides that, mesmers in roaming are one of the stronger classes. Not every class has to be optimal for zerging.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I only play mesmer and only play wvw. But atm, i just don't play, there are other factors than this change, but still, i see no point in playing. I am competative person and a GvG hardcore player. There is no reason to play mesmer, outside of 5 skills and 3 of those can be replaced by someone else.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've been playing mesmer for 6 years and i'm going to complain about bad nerfs. Chrono didn't need a nerf in wvw. You didn't even want one in every party(firebrand) or 2 per party(scourge).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nerfing mesmer, actually it wasn't a nerf, it was complete destruction of whole type of builds for mesmer. You can't play support mesmer anymore...

> > > > >

> > > > > If you think that highly of what is basicly an extravagant extra in the same style as... well, every class other than guard, necro and rev... then you're just confirming the reason it was nerfed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mesmer still has other applications on other builds. Support doesnt always mean cheesing boons for a group. The mesmer can easily stand on its own.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not to mention people still run it. We had a single minstrel chrono dumping constant alacrity and quickness the other day when running golems to backcap. Plenty of boons. Maybe not **all the boons** but plenty.

> > > >

> > > > Running golems????? Are you kitten serious?

> > > What can I say, when you are a 5 man group against a 40+ man zerg capping things at will on your hbl its faster when you can bring half the siege with you and port it away when they come.

> >

> > You don't get it do you? You don't need specific build to ppt, you do need it to fight actual enemy players. So no, mesmer is not fine, just because it can help you ppt faster.

> The minstrel chrono cannot fight actual enemy players, never has never will because its minstrel, lol. What are we talking about?

>

 

Oh i didnt play mesmer for vi than?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp.

> > >

> > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify.

> > >

> > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff.

> > >

> > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again.

> >

> > How about trying a DPS wells Chrono build?

>

> To put it in short: too slow, not enough impact as other dps.

 

I think we all tried dps wells back when HoT launched. We all played it for about 30m, then decided it sucked.

 

Basically, there's a lot of problems with it. First and foremost, the reason you have Chrono in the group at all is because of those utility slots. If you take wells instead, now you've lost the actual reason to bring Chrono. On top of that, wells just don't work very well from a mechanical perspective. They do absolutely nothing until the final tick 3 seconds later, so you have to predict enemy movement as if you were using meteor shower...but with a tiny aoe and none of the damage impact. Lastly, the wells are just shockingly weak. Calamity does only about 50% more damage than lava font, but lava font is on a cooldown over 3 times shorter and 1200 range instead of 900.

 

Basically, everything about that type of build is bad. It's unfortunate because when we originally learned that Mesmer was getting some actual gtaoe skills, we were all excited about the potential WvW applications, but immediately realized that it's simply trash the moment we got to use it.

[Darwin Iznang.1342]

Right now, I am missing the old time condi builds that used glamours to deal confusion. It was great seeing pink bubbles everywhere. But alas, it gone.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Makes me wonder though, with these 3 ticks restrictions would Calamity be OP if it does 3000 base damage on power build in PvP? I mean we already have 3.7k-4k base damage on scepter 3 with shorter CD but it is a channel skill :P

[Aleen.8561]

You still have focus pull (which is quite strong and useful), grav well with continuum split (awesome cc source), and you can focus more on boonrip (I personally tried GS + null field+phantasmal disenchanter+boonrip on shatter skills). Sounds like it's much better suited for roaming than zerging, but still has some utilities for squads :)

[Hoxworth.7318]

I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

Actually amazing.

No words.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

so its the medium armor classes and mesmer, hangin out in spawn. sounds like youre the odd one out in this scenario.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"YouWillHide.9847" said:

> I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

> Actually amazing.

> No words.

Thr OP never mentioned zergs, GvG or comps. The discussion is WvW and as such, the mesmer is still irreplaceable for its unique abilities - not just as a boon sprinkler. That wasnt a counterpoint to anything about the mesmer either - that was just further explanation to a nonsensical reply about golems. But yes I do find it somewhat ironic that the people complaining over the loss of boon chrono seem to be the "but muh fights!" type in WvW, when the meta minstrel boon chrono itself is the epitome of a build that *doesnt* fight. If a guild needed all that boon bunkering in order to win instead of using skill and tactics well what can I say. Maybe they just loved you for your boons, not your mesmer.

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"YouWillHide.9847" said:

> > I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

> > Actually amazing.

> > No words.

>But yes I do find it somewhat ironic that the people complaining over the loss of boon chrono seem to be the "but muh fights!" type in WvW, when the meta minstrel boon chrono itself is the epitome of a build that *doesnt* fight. If a guild needed all that boon bunkering in order to win instead of using skill and tactics well what can I say. Maybe they just loved you for your boons, not your mesmer.

 

Or maybe using boon comps **was** skill and tactics...shocking, I know. Who would guess that competitive groups would find the most powerful comps and use them?

 

The reason why people who play with competitive groups are more impacted by this change is because those groups will not hesitate to drop all chronos if they are no longer part of an effective composition. It turns out that not only are chronos likely no longer a valued part of an effective composition, but the role also is shockingly 1-dimensional and boring to play, even compared to the fairly boring role it already was.

 

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"YouWillHide.9847" said:

> > I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

> > Actually amazing.

> > No words.

> Thr OP never mentioned zergs, GvG or comps. The discussion is WvW and as such, the mesmer is still irreplaceable for its unique abilities - not just as a boon sprinkler. That wasnt a counterpoint to anything about the mesmer either - that was just further explanation to a nonsensical reply about golems. But yes I do find it somewhat ironic that the people complaining over the loss of boon chrono seem to be the "but muh fights!" type in WvW, when the meta minstrel boon chrono itself is the epitome of a build that *doesnt* fight. If a guild needed all that boon bunkering in order to win instead of using skill and tactics well what can I say. Maybe they just loved you for your boons, not your mesmer.

>

 

No skill you say. No fucking skill. I've been playing mesmer for guilds since release, i was there when first comps were formed, hell i even did portal bomb in freaking beta. Don't talk to me about what mesmer does and does not, don't talk to me about skill. I've played glamour confusion in the olden days, was kinda irrelevant for quite a time, except for timewarp, than came focus parties and mesmer was once again in meta and it stayed there until this very patch. I can count good guild mesmers on my own 2 hands and would still have fingers to spare. I've taught mesmers, how to play, but most actually quit, before completing their training. Also don't spread bullshit, like boonshare mesmer doesn't fight... It's a supportive role and quite boring one since release of PoF at that, with imo barely staying in meta as it was. Now it's completely unviable to play it. But while we're at it, is Firebrand a non fighter too?

 

Did your guild ever challenge us to a fight? We accepted every fight, if only we had the time. With your attitude and focus on ppt, which btw is irrelevant, i can't imagine that being the case. Also, if boon mesmer makes everything mindless, why for entire year of 2018, there were only like 4 guilds at the top able to compete with eachother? Food for taughts.

 

About ppt being irrelevant... Well, you see, i can't remember when active participation in point gathering for weekly win was relevant, as it's all about coverage. Population, it's a simple case of having numbers. Also, there is this thing, you don't need a build to do pve in wvw. Whatever would do, if you want mesmer for portal, so be it, but don't make it as a valid argument about mesmers viability in wvw, AS IT FUCKING ISN'T VIABLE. Except for roaming ofc. But even that makes whole elite spec useless in 2/3 gamemodes.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"YouWillHide.9847" said:

> > > I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

> > > Actually amazing.

> > > No words.

> >But yes I do find it somewhat ironic that the people complaining over the loss of boon chrono seem to be the "but muh fights!" type in WvW, when the meta minstrel boon chrono itself is the epitome of a build that *doesnt* fight. If a guild needed all that boon bunkering in order to win instead of using skill and tactics well what can I say. Maybe they just loved you for your boons, not your mesmer.

>

> Or maybe using boon comps **was** skill and tactics...shocking, I know. Who would guess that competitive groups would find the most powerful comps and use them?

>

> The reason why people who play with competitive groups are more impacted by this change is because those groups will not hesitate to drop all chronos if they are no longer part of an effective composition. It turns out that not only are chronos likely no longer a valued part of an effective composition, but the role also is shockingly 1-dimensional and boring to play, even compared to the fairly boring role it already was.

>

 

Let's be real here.

 

Boon comps were *not* skillful and I know you know that. Maybe a bit of expression for the mesmer, but not much else for literally anyone and everyone else involved.

 

Let's talk about the skill and coordination when we reflect back on guilds winning and losing based on how they stacked and finished their combo fields across their entire guild at once.

 

Mesmer in blobs is going to be limited to its impactful utilities. When you have outplay potential like the thief, it can't be viable in scaling group play and solo play without being downright broken somewhere.

 

And Mirage sure as hell isn't even remotely weak in the small group side of things.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"YouWillHide.9847" said:

> > > > I actually love how the discussion is about the role in zergs, GvG and comps. And the counter point made is "Well it does fine giving boons when I backcap stuff 5v40"

> > > > Actually amazing.

> > > > No words.

> > >But yes I do find it somewhat ironic that the people complaining over the loss of boon chrono seem to be the "but muh fights!" type in WvW, when the meta minstrel boon chrono itself is the epitome of a build that *doesnt* fight. If a guild needed all that boon bunkering in order to win instead of using skill and tactics well what can I say. Maybe they just loved you for your boons, not your mesmer.

> >

> > Or maybe using boon comps **was** skill and tactics...shocking, I know. Who would guess that competitive groups would find the most powerful comps and use them?

> >

> > The reason why people who play with competitive groups are more impacted by this change is because those groups will not hesitate to drop all chronos if they are no longer part of an effective composition. It turns out that not only are chronos likely no longer a valued part of an effective composition, but the role also is shockingly 1-dimensional and boring to play, even compared to the fairly boring role it already was.

> >

>

> Let's be real here.

>

> Boon comps were *not* skillful and I know you know that. Maybe a bit of expression for the mesmer, but not much else for literally anyone and everyone else involved.

 

Perhaps you haven't played since HoT, but WvW has changed a lot since then. The composition that allowed you to stack every boon in the game for minutes on end died with the launch of PoF. Keeping appropriate boon uptime in PoF is a balancing act between aggressive application and aggressive removal, not a pre-fight buff rotation.

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Let's talk about the skill and coordination when we reflect back on guilds winning and losing based on how they stacked and finished their combo fields across their entire guild at once.

 

Ok, so skill and coordination hasn't existed in WvW since the launch of HoT? Got it, glad we've got that straightened out, very enlightening.

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Mesmer in blobs is going to be limited to its impactful utilities. When you have outplay potential like the thief, it can't be viable in scaling group play and solo play without being downright broken somewhere.

 

Revenant, in a variety of builds, is viable in scaling group play and solo play. Elementalist, in a variety of builds, is viable in scaling group play and solo play. Warrior, in a variety of builds, is viable in scaling group play and solo play. See a pattern?

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> And Mirage sure as hell isn't even remotely weak in the small group side of things.

 

Ok. So?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

As an aside, it seems like some of you are under the hilarious impression that WvW groups removed chronos from the composition, threw their hands up in the air, and proclaimed "guess we won't have boons!" What actually happened is we've adjusted the comp to still provide all the boons we need on an appropriately rapid basis, it just doesn't use Chrono.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"SloRules.3560" said:

> But while we're at it, is Firebrand a non fighter too?

Minstrel fb? As a build standing on its own haha oh yes. Its really only good when supported by dps. Yesterday we had an amusing situation with a 6 or so man guild - full meta setup, multiple fbs, sb, herald, chrono, scourge - vs as many of completely random roamers. When the fight turned from them training peeps down 6v1 while bunkering to them loosing their necro and herald followed by the chrono... lets just say the outcome was inevitable. Because at that point they could no longer fight, just run around flailing heals.

 

> Also, if boon mesmer makes everything mindless, why for entire year of 2018, there were only like 4 guilds at the top able to compete with eachother? Food for taughts.

Because there was only like 4 top guilds in 2018 as the rest has quit, reformed or dont have enough people to really compete anymore? Real GvGs with the 25v25 5-10 rounds full zone cease fire spectacles at middle island or in obsidian died off many years ago. And back then mesmers where brought for... veils and portals. Go figure.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

>

> You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

 

Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

 

It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> >

> > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

>

> Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

>

> It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

 

You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

 

Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

[godfat.2604]

Reading through the threads I feel I can somehow understand why ANet doesn't understand WvW. A lot of players don't understand, either, how can one who doesn't play deep enough will ever understand? What a marvel game mode no one really understands the whole picture. Or again, they just don't care. See the recent mis-links and how they reacted.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> > >

> > > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

> >

> > Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

> >

> > It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

>

> You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

>

> Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

 

LIke I said, no different than PVE ... if you want to play how you want, you have to play with others that do the same. If you want some else to dictate how you play, then there are people you can join that will gladly tell you how to do that to. The range is large; nothing about the game excludes any part of the spectrum.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> > > >

> > > > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

> > >

> > > Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

> > >

> > > It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

> >

> > You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

> >

> > Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

>

> LIke I said, no different than PVE ... if you want to play how you want, you have to play with others that do the same. If you want some else to dictate how you play, then there are people you can join that will gladly tell you how to do that to. The range is large; nothing about the game excludes any part of the spectrum.

 

Again, this is incorrect. In PvE, there is an enormous amount of leeway between what is viable and what is optimal. If you want to speed clear raids, only very specific builds will perform optimally, but if you simply want to complete the content, there is huge variation in what can accomplish that.

 

In WvW, you have enemy groups playing optimally that you need to compete with. If your group doesn't match up, you lose. The margin for error is much more slim, much less forgiving of less optimal play. Most people go to WvW to have fun, and winning is fun. If you go into WvW and play sub-optimally, you will lose.

 

Edit: Which is not to say that there aren't groups in WvW that play whatever they want. Those groups exist, and they're the ones that are a running joke because of how bad they are, and everyone groans when they load into a map with you because they're worse than having no help at all.

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> > > >

> > > > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

> > >

> > > Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

> > >

> > > It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

> >

> > You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

> >

> > Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

>

> LIke I said, no different than PVE ... if you want to play how you want, you have to play with others that do the same. If you want some else to dictate how you play, then there are people you can join that will gladly tell you how to do that to. The range is large; nothing about the game excludes any part of the spectrum.

 

There's a huge difference between PvE and PvP. You see, in PvE you can play optimally and clear content and you can play whatever and still clear content. It might take longer to do so, but you still do it. In WvW and well, any pvp stuff, you are competing with other players and if they are optimal, you are at a disadvantage that no amount of time will fix. And as a competative person i like to win, so having someone play whatever in WvW makes me angry and sometimes toxic, when they don't listen to my "advice".

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > > > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

> > > >

> > > > It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

> > >

> > > You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

> > >

> > > Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

> >

> > LIke I said, no different than PVE ... if you want to play how you want, you have to play with others that do the same. If you want some else to dictate how you play, then there are people you can join that will gladly tell you how to do that to. The range is large; nothing about the game excludes any part of the spectrum.

>

> Again, this is incorrect. In PvE, there is an enormous amount of leeway between what is viable and what is optimal. If you want to speed clear raids, only very specific builds will perform optimally, but if you simply want to complete the content, there is huge variation in what can accomplish that.

>

> In WvW, you have enemy groups playing optimally that you need to compete with. If your group doesn't match up, you lose. The margin for error is much more slim, much less forgiving of less optimal play. Most people go to WvW to have fun, and winning is fun. If you go into WvW and play sub-optimally, you will lose.

>

> Edit: Which is not to say that there aren't groups in WvW that play whatever they want. Those groups exist, and they're the ones that are a running joke because of how bad they are, and everyone groans when they load into a map with you because they're worse than having no help at all.

 

It's not incorrect at all. You can still play how you want and be successful in WvW because when you compete with other players, then strategy and skill become important factors in winning. That's as important or moreso than the 'perfect comp'. In WvW/PVP more than any other game mode ... I will take a team of 5 players that know exactly how to play and what to do before 5 players with the perfect comps and engineered team.

 

Sure all things being equal, you're going to want the best players AND comps. But don't make it sound like everyone is coming in here and playing bad is because they don't use the right comps/builds/gear. Just because people play how they want doesn't make them scrubs that load a map.

[messiah.1908]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp.

>

> They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify.

>

> Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff.

>

> Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again.

 

same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8...

mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low.

now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications.

but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more)

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > > > Why do you care if you are accepted or not? It's not like raid or fractal where you can be kicked, in WvW noone can kick anyone so you can play with whatever you want without worrying about your "role".

> > > > > > > And since noone cares about winning but only about farming and 11111 in WvW, you have nothing to worry, you'll do great than most players by just having exotic gear :)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You don't seem to understand that WvW has a really established and vibrant culture of guilds and guild groups. They organize their comps to optimize performance and playing something that's not delivering is an issue. It's actually a problem for big WvW players. Not all of them play casually in the way you're describing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe, but that doesn't prevent you from playing what you want. Playing optimally in WvW is no different than playing optimally in PVE ... some classes are really desirable and some aren't and if you are going to step into that world of playing optimally, you accept that what is optimal changes and can change quite a bit frequently. That's part of the price to play what's best. Don't like it? Then play what you want. What I find strange is that of all game modes, WvW is the most open area to play this way.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's actually really weird to hear people talk about optimization like this for WvW; of all the game modes, it has the most capability to carry build variation and the best players are pretty capable of changing out whatever on the fly based on the situation.

> > > >

> > > > You seem to be operating under the assumption that WvW is just a bunch of random players wandering about doing whatever strikes their fancy. This is ridiculously incorrect. Any comped WvW group operates in an optional manner, even loose guild open raids want to have some kind of effective structure, and even pure pug tags won't willingly accept dead weight players.

> > > >

> > > > Play what you want? Sure, go ahead and do that. However, you'll be left out as that useless person tagging along behind the squad because you offer nothing to the group.

> > >

> > > LIke I said, no different than PVE ... if you want to play how you want, you have to play with others that do the same. If you want some else to dictate how you play, then there are people you can join that will gladly tell you how to do that to. The range is large; nothing about the game excludes any part of the spectrum.

> >

> > Again, this is incorrect. In PvE, there is an enormous amount of leeway between what is viable and what is optimal. If you want to speed clear raids, only very specific builds will perform optimally, but if you simply want to complete the content, there is huge variation in what can accomplish that.

> >

> > In WvW, you have enemy groups playing optimally that you need to compete with. If your group doesn't match up, you lose. The margin for error is much more slim, much less forgiving of less optimal play. Most people go to WvW to have fun, and winning is fun. If you go into WvW and play sub-optimally, you will lose.

> >

> > Edit: Which is not to say that there aren't groups in WvW that play whatever they want. Those groups exist, and they're the ones that are a running joke because of how bad they are, and everyone groans when they load into a map with you because they're worse than having no help at all.

>

> It's not incorrect at all. You can still play how you want and be successful in WvW because when you compete with other players, then strategy and skill become important factors in winning. That's as important or moreso than the 'perfect comp'. In WvW/PVP more than any other game mode ... I will take a team of 5 players that know exactly how to play and what to do before 5 players with the perfect comps and engineered team.

 

Theoretically speaking that could happen, but go ahead and find me a group of players that strive for excellence in tactics and skill but play whatever random builds. Hint: they don't exist.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sure all things being equal, you're going to want the best players AND comps. But don't make it sound like everyone is coming in here and playing bad is because they don't use the right comps/builds/gear. Just because people play how they want doesn't make them scrubs that load a map.

 

Really it does. The fact that you're trying to claim that playing how you want doesn't mean you're dead weight implies that you're probably dead weight when you play, and are offended by that statement. The fact of the matter is that good players will attempt to play well in all ways: skill, tactics, and builds. Bad players will attempt none of those ways.