apharma.3741 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > I hope you mean Magi amulet because Clerics was removed due to Tempest Ah yes I mistook the amulets, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mes.4607 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 High sustain classes as a whole need to be looked at by the balance team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. Sounds like you just play against bad players in WvW to be honest. I can stall a lot of fights with ele if I want but you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds. I've spent a lot of time duelling with and against sword, dagger and scepter weavers and they stand a chance vs non meta builds that are objectively weak atm but when it comes to meta soulbeast (even beast mastery non boon beast), holo, condi mirage etc you won't kill anything vs someone with a modicum of skill. Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferbz.6987 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said: > > @"ferbz.6987" said: > > Voted ranger (SB). Hybrid Condi SBs have been showing up more lately, they are as disgusting as Condi mesmers were a few nerfs ago. Tanky, high burst, high sustain, Dodges for days > > Serious question: is this a legit thing in higher level PvP? I don't PvP anymore but the condition Soulbeasts I run into in WvW aren't the most threatening. I do not know tbh. I'm speaking from my own perspective as a thief. I cant touch them either in spvp and wvw while getting bursted and having almost every condition in the game on me. In wvw I honestly dont even bother anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > Sounds like you just play against bad players in WvW to be honest. I can stall a lot of fights with ele if I want but you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds. I've spent a lot of time duelling with and against sword, dagger and scepter weavers and they stand a chance vs non meta builds that are objectively weak atm but when it comes to meta soulbeast (even beast mastery non boon beast), holo, condi mirage etc you won't kill anything vs someone with a modicum of skill. > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. It always comes down to player skill even if this is hardly ever admitted but what interest me the most is what you say about sword weaver : "you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds" aka the builds with the most sustain and that means that you're capable of winning on sword weaver by outsustaining your enemy in 1v1 when using builds with less sustain than meta build...in that scenario how that would make you less OP than current soulbeast - boonbeast?" If current boonbeast get nerfed to non meta levels, then people would jump on the next best thing with more sustain and that must be nerfed too...and the next after and so on Not defending boonbeast but...what exactly does not deserve nerfs in this game? And really if you want this game to be truly **skilled** then you'd need to place all 9 professions on same starting position : same HP, same damage and same skills...that's perfect balance for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > Sounds like you just play against bad players in WvW to be honest. I can stall a lot of fights with ele if I want but you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds. I've spent a lot of time duelling with and against sword, dagger and scepter weavers and they stand a chance vs non meta builds that are objectively weak atm but when it comes to meta soulbeast (even beast mastery non boon beast), holo, condi mirage etc you won't kill anything vs someone with a modicum of skill. > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > It always comes down to player skill even if this is hardly ever admitted but what interest me the most is what you say about sword weaver : "you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds" aka the builds with the most sustain and that means that you're capable of winning on sword weaver by outsustaining your enemy in 1v1 when using builds with less sustain than meta build...in that scenario how that would make you less OP than current soulbeast - boonbeast?" If current boonbeast get nerfed to non meta levels, then people would jump on the next best thing with more sustain and that must be nerfed too...and the next after and so on > > Not defending boonbeast but...what exactly does not deserve nerfs in this game? And really if you want this game to be truly **skilled** then you'd need to place all 9 professions on same starting position : same HP, same damage and same skills...that's perfect balance for you. You sound like you are a main ranger who plays soulbeast and is trying to rationalize why it shouldn't be nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > Sounds like you just play against bad players in WvW to be honest. I can stall a lot of fights with ele if I want but you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds. I've spent a lot of time duelling with and against sword, dagger and scepter weavers and they stand a chance vs non meta builds that are objectively weak atm but when it comes to meta soulbeast (even beast mastery non boon beast), holo, condi mirage etc you won't kill anything vs someone with a modicum of skill. > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > It always comes down to player skill even if this is hardly ever admitted but what interest me the most is what you say about sword weaver : "you won't get the kill on sword weaver against any competent player on their meta builds" aka the builds with the most sustain and that means that you're capable of winning on sword weaver by outsustaining your enemy in 1v1 when using builds with less sustain than meta build...in that scenario how that would make you less OP than current soulbeast - boonbeast?" If current boonbeast get nerfed to non meta levels, then people would jump on the next best thing with more sustain and that must be nerfed too...and the next after and so on > > > > Not defending boonbeast but...what exactly does not deserve nerfs in this game? And really if you want this game to be truly **skilled** then you'd need to place all 9 professions on same starting position : same HP, same damage and same skills...that's perfect balance for you. > > You sound like you are a main ranger who plays soulbeast and is trying to rationalize why it shouldn't be nerfed. > > The principle used to nerf soulbeast is that "he has too much sustain", following that line of thought the entirety of the game must see huge nerfs across the board; nerfing soulbeast is irrelevant because none here play a balanced profession to start with including sword weaver ele. If you nerf soulbeast based the "too much sustain" idea then people will simply jump on the best next thing with the most sustain and those people will then come on the forum will all sort of L2P arguments. Boonbeast needs nerfs...but that doesn't make holosmith, mirage and warrior any less in need of huge nerfs and after that you'd need to nerf sword ele and herald and after that dragon hunter, druid and reaper...**it's like a domino effect** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. People won't. Or can't get better, thus mesmer will always be an issue for them. Take the OP for example. Who made a thread saying mesmer has too many passive defenses and listed clones, distortion and weapon abilities as passives. Then refused to acknowledge what passives are in Guild Wars while pushing a false narrative. And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. I've said it before and I'll say it again: People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteepledHat.1345 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Ranger is "overperforming" time to give them the equivalent of the portal nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > People won't. Or can't get better, thus mesmer will always be an issue for them. Take the OP for example. Who made a thread saying mesmer has too many passive defenses and listed clones, distortion and weapon abilities as passives. > Then refused to acknowledge what passives are in Guild Wars while pushing a false narrative. > And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range Went back and read through that 'passive' thread again. Just as entertaining the second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. You forget : - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > People won't. Or can't get better, thus mesmer will always be an issue for them. Take the OP for example. Who made a thread saying mesmer has too many passive defenses and listed clones, distortion and weapon abilities as passives. > Then refused to acknowledge what passives are in Guild Wars while pushing a false narrative. > And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range Its the teleports the folks are jealous of the teleports, and the ability to make clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > People won't. Or can't get better, thus mesmer will always be an issue for them. Take the OP for example. Who made a thread saying mesmer has too many passive defenses and listed clones, distortion and weapon abilities as passives. > > Then refused to acknowledge what passives are in Guild Wars while pushing a false narrative. > > And still probably to this day hasn't figured out how to find the real mesmer in melee range > > Its the teleports the folks are jealous of the teleports, and the ability to make clones. > No people just don't want to have to think. It's why spell breakers continue to get nerfs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > You forget : > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. This actually proves that you don't know how mesmer works. Evasive mirror(dueling) is the trait that with mirage cloak allows reflect, not master of manipulation(chaos), with the vigor nerfs is no where near to perma, and if you spec evasive mirror you drop blind on shatter and consequently ineptitude, so you lose some of the burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > > > You forget : > > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. > > This actually proves that you don't know how mesmer works. > Evasive mirror(dueling) is the trait that with mirage cloak allows reflect, not master of manipulation(chaos), with the vigor nerfs is no where near to perma, and if you spec evasive mirror you drop blind on shatter and consequently ineptitude, so you lose some of the burst. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Hybrid_Horizon_Roamer, this is one of the many variant of mirage you can expect when roaming as ranger, in more than one occasion these guys show up with their heavy reflect up-time between blink and mirror healing into distortion into stealth which makes longbow completely redudant against mirages in most occasions, this is the reason why most rangers use double axe now and reason why reflect spammers wish for boonbeast nerf. No ! I don't main mesmer but denying that chaos mirages exist and fully viable...would be a blatant lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > You forget : > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. It's a good trait but most of the projectiles you see in PvP at the moment are either 1. Poke Damage like Holo Rifle Auto Attack, 2. Sic Em Long Bow Rangers who are running the unblockable trait anyway. I think the only serious projectile I'm consistently dealing with and reflecting is Photon Forge 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. > > Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. > > @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. > > I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. I am not disagreeing with you entirely I am only suggesting that going after sustain as the focal point of the discussion is not wise , many specs offer great sustain at low cost and at this point , once you start nerfing one...you must nerf them all to what level ..nobody can say that given how unbalanced are the classed to start with. Boonbeast is held together by a single utility without which the sustain drop drastically, at the very least way below holosmith levels, after all soulbeast was not meta until people started using **moa stance** in their build; in itself soulbeast does not offer much more sustain than core ranger and definitely less sustain than druid You list core ranger "sustain" traits that provide some regen and protection like those traits alone do anything against the massive burst going around these days, if that would have ever been true, ranger would have not dropped from meta immediately after druid nerfs...think about it. Again I am not defending boonbeast as I suggested nerfs months ago and directly against the whole ranger community, that alone should suffice to demonstrate my lack of bias, I am not biased as much as many other players but at the same time I know that ranger is anything but the godly duellist as described in this thread...**once you remove boonbeast** . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > > > You forget : > > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. > > It's a good trait but most of the projectiles you see in PvP at the moment are either 1. Poke Damage like Holo Rifle Auto Attack, 2. Sic Em Long Bow Rangers who are running the unblockable trait anyway. > > I think the only serious projectile I'm consistently dealing with and reflecting is Photon Forge 4. Yes..a good trait, great traits synergy for mesmer, good for the class but...don't you think every class deserve the same treatment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons. > > > > > > > > > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one. > > > > > > > > > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor). > > > > > > > > > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: > > > > > > > > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game. > > > > > > > > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs. > > > > > > > > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered. > > > > > > > > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo. > > > > > > > > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing. > > > > > > > > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging. > > > > > > You forget : > > > - master of manipulation which with mirage cloak allows the mesmer to have basically perma reflect or something close to it, healing while dodging receiving reflect on top, followed by distortion or blink or symmetry or else....same rotation till the target doesn't run out of CD, all of this ofc means we don't know how mesmer works. > > > > This actually proves that you don't know how mesmer works. > > Evasive mirror(dueling) is the trait that with mirage cloak allows reflect, not master of manipulation(chaos), with the vigor nerfs is no where near to perma, and if you spec evasive mirror you drop blind on shatter and consequently ineptitude, so you lose some of the burst. > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Hybrid_Horizon_Roamer, this is one of the many variant of mirage you can expect when roaming as ranger, in more than one occasion these guys show up with their heavy reflect up-time between blink and mirror healing into distortion into stealth which makes longbow completely redudant against mirages in most occasions, this is the reason why most rangers use double axe now and reason why reflect spammers wish for boonbeast nerf. > > No ! I don't main mesmer but denying that chaos mirages exist and fully viable...would be a blatant lie That build has 4sec reflect. 4sec reflect is as far from perma as it can gets. Even the build I was talking about has more reflect. Plus traiting chaos and duel you've a pityful condi output and no burst whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I think they are probably closer together, since everyone got nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reapers dmg got nerfed in sustain and some of the dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors got nerfed in full counter pretty hard. > > > > > > > > > > > Thieves got hit with the nerf bat very very hard on lead attacks, so now they are forced to be in combat to get some, and rifle also got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > Eles got nerfed in sustain in tempest elite spec, and also nerfed in crit dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > mesmers got the most nerfs that ive seen:Jaunt got nerfed from 3 charges to 2, and the buffs chrono gives out was also nerfed such as quickness, but got buffed in power.Mesmers were hit very hard with the nerf bat in fact. > > > > > > > > > > > Guardians got some nerfs to some abilities with hammer I think, but I will need to be corrected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty much every class took a hit by the nerf bat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boonbeast was buffed to even more impossible to kill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone voting anything other than ranger on this poll doesn't know what they're talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger has amazing trait synergy which many classes have also enjoyed but were nerfed in hefty amounts because of. Also if you think PvP soulbeast is busted try fighting it in WvW where ANet love skill splitting ranger from it's PvP nerfs so druid is as faceroll as ever (10s CA CD) and the stance cool down increases weren't implemented but the buff to dolyak stance is brought over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only class which has been nerfed from playable to unplayable would be ele..about the rest, they remain viable despite these "hefty" nerfs, the trait synergy is still there just not as broken; trait synergy should be a target for each profession..not something to destroy. The CA cd sits in the same room with many other traits on other profession which received only pvp related nerfs, if you want to extend CA cd nerfs to wvw then...you should extend nerfs also on warrior endure pain, holo traits etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About soulbeast, it remains a power spec with no innate sustain but kept alive by this boon generation gimmick, without which it would offer even less sustain than core ranger let alone druid, now I have been a strong advocate of removing/nerfing moa stance even more and yet...**ranger is far from being this one man army** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You actually have to invest time and effort into elementalists if you want to be anything other than useless with it... > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually want elementalist to have more damage, oddly enough. I think when a lot of people roll elementalist they want to be that classic wizard able to hurl death on people from a distance. I wish Elementalist was a huge power / crit version of a scourge and could be super successful as a team damage carry the way Holosmith and Rev currently are, but with a more traditional caster flavor. I miss fresh air ele before they got that huge damage nerf, they were super fun to play and fun to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > Ele doesn't need buffs it needs all the power creep to be addressed. A lot of ele builds work by reducing damage taken and healing back up what damage it takes through really high sustained healing. Sustained healing means nothing if every hit chunks off half your health and thanks to FB we saw clerics amulet removed. > > > > > > > > I don't miss the time when any **below** average Joe could become a god overnight by playing arcana/water d/d ele at 800+ healing power...that's not how a class should work and regardless the healing of an ele is still there when treated and played properly; you talk about wvw but there I can match basically any class in 1v1 on a sword weaver and win in most cases, stall in others and it becomes boring, that's not how the game supposed to work : "healing back to full despite the tremendeous amount of mistakes" > > > > > > > > "Invincible healbot" is not a balanced concept and should not exist in any form or shape and that's why I advocate for nerfs on boonbeast and boonbeast only , listing all sustain of a ranger is nothing more than witchhunt, it's not balance discussion > > > > > > > > Getting good on ranger takes time and hundreds of deaths like any other class and like it happened to other professions now ranger has a "too" accessible build due to the excessive boon generation and this build I fully agree should be nerfed more, other than that I can match any ranger build with an ele and that says it all about the veridicality of most claims made in this thread. > > > > > > > > Soulbeast is very strong, anyone saying it's anything but overturned likely has a vested interest in keeping it too strong. Just like holo, condi mirage and many other meta PoF specs. > > > > It could also be that the player dedicated his build to dealing with boonbeasts and mirages? > > That's sort of how my Tempest is set up, handles boonbeeasts, mirages, thieves, spellbreakers extremely well but fails hard against holo and a decent scourge from lack of stab and condi removals. > > > > But if If change my build to something else, something with more condi cleanse then my issues become that Thief, Ranger, Holo and spellbreaker becomes "OP" while mirage and scourge can be ignored because I took too much condi cleanse. > > > > Perspective is a funny thing, 2 people could argue completely different sides of the same story and both would be correct. > > Your build has downsides to it though. You become weak to multiple classes and builds especially ones that are considered meta in return for being strong against certain other meta builds. Soulbeast, holo and condi mirage lack this trade off for the most part and remain strong or decent against most builds currently in the meta. > > @"Arheundel.6451" That's your personal opinion, many players believe the opposite. Besides if any idiot can slap on high toughness and healing they do no damage, rotato potato them, they're an idiot after all by your own evaluation. > > I have made my viewpoints very clear that holo gets too much free healing in holosmith in many threads for a while while I've also pointed out the condition stacking and bursting on mirage is not just too strong but entirely inconsistent with the statement from the balance team "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." I'm not witch hunting (would that be a standard hunt?) ranger specifically however it is exceptionally over tuned especially in WvW. Im not sure how you can assume all of that when I never posted a specific build? I also feel like theres a sense of balance there too if a player has to decide to do well against mirages or to do well against boonbeasts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now