Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[LaGranse.8652]

> @"Astyrah.4015" said:

> > @"LaGranse.8652" said:

> > I just want an option to hide my data from the party/squad if I so wish. If said group demand data to be public I did not want to run with them to begin with. If said group don't care then I don't want to share my data anyhow.

>

> there's no escape even if you could. even if arcDPS somehow was given by it's dev an option to hide personal DPS, you will eventually run into groups or people who would demand that you make your DPS public or risk getting yourself kicked off the group

 

I think my first post made it clear how those kind of groups would be handled. Would be better for people to know what they sign up for before going into an instance and then getting kicked after they're already doing the content. People are free to type "data required" or similar in the party description.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> It is a reappearing siutation. If there was no ArcDPS people would be toxic as well, but it would be a lot harder for them to actually kick a certain person.

>

 

The process of kicking people is exactly the same:

It involves people wanting to remove someone, they then remove the person. To assume that a justification is needed is nonsense.

 

On the contrary, kicking and removal of players based on subjective opinion is far worse than based on objective fact.

 

We HAD this in the past.

 

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> The toxic response in here is also quite repetitive. So in return, I react with the same phrases as well. Thank you for bringing up the discussion once more and having the guts to speak up. ArcDPS is third party software and should have never been allowed to GW2 (imho). We have the training Golem in the Special Forces Training Area for dps-measurement.

>

> The topic will reappear over and over until a solution is found for it, get used to that.

 

The topic reapers over and over because people are blaming a tool for what is essentially human behavior.

 

I agree though, Arenanet should finally implement build templates and a game own damage meter. That way EVERY player is forced to deal with their performance (or lack thereof) and the amount of threads were people come complaining gets reduced because it is quite hard to justify wanting to remain in a group with terrible performance.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Ijust want to say, these people would’ve kicked you even without ArcDPS.

Tools don’t breed toxicity, toxicity causes abuse of tools.

 

I uninstalled ArcDPS long ago. It made the game crash, and ultimately, i’ve done fine in raids with just experience

[Heizero.9183]

I was a pretty "hardcore" player in vanilla gw2 up into the first patch of HoTs before anything like ARCdps. I'm just coming back now and I love the add-on. I can confirm that before ARCdps the dungeon scene has always been toxic.

 

Add-on or no add-on the min/maxers of the game will find a way to critique you. It's just how it goes. Back when I was hardcore if you didn't run zerk warrior or Mesmer you get kicked. Seems to be a much healthier build diversity these days in competitive content. So I'd be careful what you wish for.

[Hugheszie.6291]

Allowing DPS meters etc is exactly what killed the Warcraft community and created a toxic numbers game. Guild Wars, don't go down that path!

 

I used to guild raid on WOW a lot and put out good numbers, so was ok, but understood some players contributed in other ways and it wasn't all about the DPS chart, unfortunately, some players didn't and used to vote kick people constantly. It ruins the game. I like that guild wars doesn't allow you to inspect other players gear, thats a good start! Too many people focus on that bollocks rather than playing a GAME. A GAME. People always forget it's a GAME.

[Reverze.7180]

pretty sure the guys that use a dps meter for ez mode dungeons never raided,be happy you got kicked.

[Taygus.4571]

> @"Hugheszie.6291" said:

> Allowing DPS meters etc is exactly what killed the Warcraft community and created a toxic numbers game. Guild Wars, don't go down that path!

>

> I used to guild raid on WOW a lot and put out good numbers, so was ok, but understood some players contributed in other ways and it wasn't all about the DPS chart, unfortunately, some players didn't and used to vote kick people constantly. It ruins the game. I like that guild wars doesn't allow you to inspect other players gear, thats a good start! Too many people focus on that kitten rather than playing a GAME. A GAME. People always forget it's a GAME.

 

As others have said gw2 was more toxic before dps meters.

"no reaper, no ranger, 10kAP, etc".

 

At least now, it's from not carrying your weight.

 

(although, I'll add again. It's rediculous to fuss about that for dungeons).

[gateless gate.8406]

DPS meters should be banned, BUT Anet would also have to allow players to actually lead groups. This proto-communist grouping system whereby the creator of the group can be kicked by the people they invite is beyond weird, and one of the consequences of it is that players cannot make their own groups to solve toxicity/elitism issues.

 

These issues being brought up in the thread about people being toxic prior to DPS meters are valid -- but very easily solved by simply making your own group, which in most games means you can't be kicked (which therefore lets you play any build you want). That's impossible in GW2's system.

 

Note also that GW2's grouping system is one of the big reasons why this game has such strict meta requirements. The inability to truly lead groups means that people are socially encouraged to always play "safe" builds and to never rock the boat or speak out against absurdities. It's essentially mob rule, and mob rule has a chilling effect.

[Turin.6921]

Sure lets ban dps meter and have people being kicked for any arbitrary reason the commander might choose. For good or for worse at least the cheeky commanders now need to justify their kick based on an objective number. Without the meter you can justify any kick,

 

> @"Applejuice.4083" said:

> 2nd instance was at VG was hitting 30-40k+ but it was "too low" and people started to get boot left and right.

 

30k-40k?Damage per second on ARC? And they kicked for being too low? Yeah i cannot believe that.

Are you referring on the damage numbers over the boss? If that is the case unfortunately these are not good indications of damage per second. These do not show DPS just the total damage of a hit that often builds up over several seconds. Download ARC and actually check your DPS. There is a good chance that the tag was right about the low DPS you had on the boss.

 

[Mea.5491]

I totally agree! I started playing MMORPGs 16 years ago and this obsession with damage and perfect rotations is sad. Back in my day we grouped up with ANYONE. No one cared about gear, build and damage. We had fun and that's what matters in a video game. Nowadays if your gear is not perfect, if you make one little mistake in your rotation or if your damage is lower than expected, people start cursing and kick you out of the group instead of encouraging you to get better. :astonished: This is wrong! It's the reason why I stick with open world PvE events, it's relaxed and fun, it still feels like a video game instead of a job where you have to live up to other people's expectations. Instanced group content died for me a long ago because of this angry player mentality.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Applejuice.4083" said:

> How do you expect people to learn and stay end game, when its filled with elitism?

 

Was it a training run? If it wasn't then don't join a group that wants to finish the content and instead find one that offers training. The fault is on the player that joined the wrong group.

 

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> We had fun and that's what matters in a video game.

 

If you find endless wipes fun then that's good for you. On the other hand, I'm positive lots of players prefer smooth runs.

 

 

> Nowadays if your gear is not perfect, if you make one little mistake in your rotation or if your damage is **MUCH MUCH** lower than expected

 

Correct that. Nobody is getting kicked for doing low damage. Kicks happen when someone playing a DPS build deals less damage than the support. Simply auto-attacking would result in the DPS doing way more damage, so they must be doing something fundamentally wrong. Which is why they are kicked in the first place.

 

> people start cursing and kick you out of the group instead of encouraging you to get better. :astonished:

 

The astonishing part is about how entitled some players feel these days. Entitled to the time and effort of others. By disrespecting the rest of the team you don't earn respect back. Respect the time of others and they will respect you back.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

People who are elitist jerks using ArcDPS will remain elities jerks without having access to ArcDPS. This issue has been debated ad nauseum in MMOs since forever.

 

Recount, Gearscore, Skada, Achievement linking, Kill proof - they are all player creations, and just like any tool, are neutral in purpose. How they are used and by whom is the only relevant issue.

 

Jerks exist in MMOs

Don't play with jerks, and you won't care about DPS meters / addons anymore.

 

[stone cold.8609]

Sorry for your experience. Toxic people exist in game unfortunately. Dungeons used to be one of the places where you saw this kind of behavior. I still routinely run dungeons and I haven't seen this in a while (4W + 1M, 5K AP zerk or kick, anyone remember this from 2012-13?). It is so hard to get a party to run any of the paths now a days, people generally are much more accepting of any warm body to get the run going. Where I see more toxicity is in T4 fractals, esp CMs, and raids. DPS meters aren't going to change this behavior since some other more arbitrary metric will then be used.

 

A raid geared character kicked from AC path 2 for low DPS doesn't make sense to me. I'm fairly certain that any DPS you were doing would be much more than the combined output of 2 (or even 3) fresh low level characters that I carry through the paths on a regular basis. Two fully geared level 80s DPS builds that know the fight are more than enough to carry a full team.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The amount of complaints about exclusion has actually decreased on these boards since the meter was put into use. Back when dungeons and fractals were all the game offered as to instanced-group-PvE, _at least_ one thread a week (often more) would be posted. Now, not so many appear.

 

Maybe it's because there are fewer players playing now. Maybe it's (gasp) that the DPS meter shows data that proves that some professions and builds can produce damage that many groups consider "good enough." Maybe, before, those professions and builds would be excluded on general principles.

 

Most people want to get through content they have completed many times in a reasonable amount of time. It stands to reason that some peoples' tolerance as to what constitutes "reasonable" is going to be over-tuned. Applying such a standard in AC is way over-tuned, though.

[Jimbru.6014]

> @"ReActif.9251" said:

> Toxic players remain toxic regardless of the tools or control methods.

 

Which is why mechanisms that enable toxic players should be removed whenever possible. I'd start with the Aviator Memory Box.

[Draco.9480]

people saw you leech. you get mad, so you blame arcdps for it. maybe you should get banned. i get kicked for being a necro so what. do i blame arcdps? no the numbers are on my side cuz i outdps meta people with necro. when i outdps i don't get kicked.

 

if you had arcdsp you would see yer actual dps and why you were kicked. improve and stop blaming elitism and addons. it's yer problem only.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> I totally agree! I started playing MMORPGs 16 years ago and this obsession with damage and perfect rotations is sad. Back in my day we grouped up with ANYONE. No one cared about gear, build and damage. We had fun and that's what matters in a video game. Nowadays if your gear is not perfect, if you make one little mistake in your rotation or if your damage is lower than expected, people start cursing and kick you out of the group instead of encouraging you to get better. :astonished: This is wrong! It's the reason why I stick with open world PvE events, it's relaxed and fun, it still feels like a video game instead of a job where you have to live up to other people's expectations. Instanced group content died for me a long ago because of this angry player mentality.

 

True i its sad this shamming exists around dps

[Wolfb.7025]

You're better off without that party anyways. so ArcDPS basically made you a favor.

[zionophir.6845]

Windows 10 - the ultimate 3rd PARTY program.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Correlation does not imply causation.

>

> People who are elitist jerks using ArcDPS will remain elities jerks without having access to ArcDPS. This issue has been debated ad nauseum in MMOs since forever.

>

> Recount, Gearscore, Skada, Achievement linking, Kill proof - they are all player creations, and just like any tool, are neutral in purpose. How they are used and by whom is the only relevant issue.

>

> Jerks exist in MMOs

> Don't play with jerks, and you won't care about DPS meters / addons anymore.

>

 

I belive you meant to use damage not skada wich is swedish word

[Heizero.9183]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > Correlation does not imply causation.

> >

> > People who are elitist jerks using ArcDPS will remain elities jerks without having access to ArcDPS. This issue has been debated ad nauseum in MMOs since forever.

> >

> > Recount, Gearscore, Skada, Achievement linking, Kill proof - they are all player creations, and just like any tool, are neutral in purpose. How they are used and by whom is the only relevant issue.

> >

> > Jerks exist in MMOs

> > Don't play with jerks, and you won't care about DPS meters / addons anymore.

> >

>

> I belive you meant to use damage not skada wich is swedish word

 

Skada is a WoW damage meter add on

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

Ludicrous post tbqh... it has nothing to do with DPS meters. Like in life, you just have to learn to deal with jerks.

[gateless gate.8406]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> Why should they be banned? Also a commander cannot be kicked and the party has a majority vote, which isn't exactly easy to abuse. What you're saying doesn't make much sense. You're able to kick the underperformer, that's all you need to be able to have a group full of people who aren't bad.

 

It's just a personal preference. I think DPS meters leads people to overemphasize numbers. I've seen it time and again in other MMOs (where DPS meters are more widespread). A player will stand in lethal boss mechanics because they want to keep DPS high, or will berate someone who is performing all boss mechanics correctly for having middling DPS.

 

Secondly, I think people get overly particular about DPS numbers. One class may do 40k DPS while bringing zero utility and being a fragile glass cannon. Meanwhile, another class may do 36k DPS but bring utility and survivability. People will berate the 36k player for playing a "useless" and "low DPS" class because all the extra things they bring are **non-quantifiable**. There is no meter showing how many times that 36k player prevented himself from being downed (thereby preventing the massive DPS loss that is rezzing), or enhanced group DPS through boons. The fact that those things are much harder to quantify means players undervalue them.

 

Thirdly, I think it encourages developers to make smarter, more fun enemy encounters. If DPS meters are in the game, people will begin bringing the high DPS classes. That means average group/raid damage begins skyrocketing relative to damage prior to the introduction of DPS meters, which in turn means developers need to start raising boss HP and implementing enrage timers.

 

 

Regarding the issue of a commander being kicked from their own group, I was referring to 5-man groups.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > Why should they be banned? Also a commander cannot be kicked and the party has a majority vote, which isn't exactly easy to abuse. What you're saying doesn't make much sense. You're able to kick the underperformer, that's all you need to be able to have a group full of people who aren't bad.

>

> It's just a personal preference. I think DPS meters leads people to overemphasize numbers. I've seen it time and again in other MMOs (where DPS meters are more widespread). A player will stand in lethal boss mechanics because they want to keep DPS high, or will berate someone who is performing all boss mechanics correctly for having middling DPS.

>

> Secondly, I think people get overly particular about DPS numbers. One class may do 40k DPS while bringing zero utility and being a fragile glass cannon. Meanwhile, another class may do 36k DPS but bring utility and survivability. People will berate the 36k player for playing a "useless" and "low DPS" class because all the extra things they bring are **non-quantifiable**. There is no meter showing how many times that 36k player prevented himself from being downed (thereby preventing the massive DPS loss that is rezzing), or enhanced group DPS through boons. The fact that those things are much harder to quantify means players undervalue them.

>

> Thirdly, I think it encourages developers to make smarter, more fun enemy encounters. If DPS meters are in the game, people will begin bringing the high DPS classes. That means average group/raid damage begins skyrocketing relative to damage prior to the introduction of DPS meters, which in turn means developers need to start raising boss HP and implementing enrage timers.

>

>

> Regarding the issue of a commander being kicked from their own group, I was referring to 5-man groups.

 

Dps meter is toxic tool. Game got more toxic since it came . For first maybe anet had a reason to not impliment one into game no one thinks of that

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Secondly, I think people get overly particular about DPS numbers. One class may do 40k DPS while bringing zero utility and being a fragile glass cannon. Meanwhile, another class may do 36k DPS but bring utility and survivability. People will berate the 36k player for playing a "useless" and "low DPS" class because all the extra things they bring are **non-quantifiable**. There is no meter showing how many times that 36k player prevented himself from being downed (thereby preventing the massive DPS loss that is rezzing), or enhanced group DPS through boons. The fact that those things are much harder to quantify means players undervalue them.

 

First, there is no reason to berate the 36k player, unless 36k is the damage done by the support roles, only time dps becomes an issue in actual gameplay is when the DPS reaches a certain low point. If you do less damage than another person (but higher than the support) nobody will care, this is a "anti-dps-meter" myth. Combined with the other similar myth "players watch the meters and ignore everything else", which is also false.

 

Second, the meter shows how many times a player prevents damage, their skill usage, how much healing they provided and how many boons they provided. It's very easy to quantify these and is the prime reason why the support builds are what they are. In fact buff application is much easier to quantify than damage, there are less variables there.