Why are medium armor classes not good in zergs?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Sounds like u just don’t like fighting thief lok

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > DE is cheese and is strong but core and DD are not ok and are underperforming right now and should not be left like that just because DE needs some further stealth restrictions, and I feel the same for warriors and other specs who have specs that are underperforming especially if the other specs are being gutted because of one of the three specs are overtuned

>

> DE was considered by most as trash when PoF was released. then they redesigned it making it stronger while also forcing them to play a little more visible. now any change you add to core will affect DE, wich means if you want to buff core without deadeye you would need to add synergies that require 3 traitlines. as for DD.. well that is our evasion focused spec, i prefer fighting against stealth spamm over evasion spamm any day so i dont really care about daredevil.

 

DE relies on stealth,core and DD don’t,u can deff tone down stealth access and length to tone down DE and buff core and DD in any non stealth manner and DE having its main mechanics nurfed further would in turn still be decent because of buffs in other areas

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Easy to ballance DE without killing core and vice versa,both use diff playstyles for most part

[Psycoprophet.8107]

With DE crap mobility and further nurfed stealth it would need buff in other area’s anyway because those nurfs would hit hard enough to warrant them

[reddie.5861]

ah ye sorry guys i forgot about DE, i never bothered to play DE cus DE is all about stealth and i dislike stealth (as thief) but even a DE i can take on in 1v1 on my daredevil even on core thief i can do it.

 

but without a joke, i cant beat most classes or they just never gonna die before they run to safety or they just take so much to take em down that im just dieing from their condi/weak slaps over time.

and no im not claiming to be best of the best thiefs.

 

i might be able to take on all classes after all if i play like a pussy and stealth in and out or play s/d and port all over the place constantly, but that doesnt change fact that without these tools i do not have what it takes to burst something down.

while in meanwhile when i play my warrior i just bull rush (or w/e skill name was) up to a thief and blow him up (many more classes).

i mean my warrior who has far more sustain then my thief (whos actually wearing marauder and somerunes that add +100 toughness) while warrior is full zerker is hitting just about as hard as thief if not harder has mobility like a boss aswell.

 

i dunno why people still complain about thiefs, only reasons i can think of is cus thiefs or most likely the class u see often while ur trying to go back to your blob commander and hes ganking you.

yes annoying but is it reason for a nerf? i find it annoying also that i cant join blob commander cus 1 stun will turn me into rally bot maybe we should nerf everything that has stuns and then while we are on it cus i dont have much condi clear lets rape necro condi pooping also plus i hate guardian healers so nerf them also so we get more ele in backline again that i can atleast burst down.

 

life of a thief isnt full of beautiful flowers ;).

i just keep playing thief cus its class i enjoy can get nerfed to the ground i dont mind aslong i have fun playing gw2 ill keep playing thief.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Sounds like u just don’t like fighting thief lok

 

indeed, they usually die too fast and are really salty when they keep dying to a fellow thief.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

With regards to op Druid healing teammates in zergs or sharing all the crazy boons boonbeast can provide as well as large area cripple with barrage would be enough to be considered helpful in my eyes,healing scrapper as well, thief can drop weakness areas if combining clusters on poison fails with short bow,plus +1 with skies that arnt close to aoe fields that will one shot u would be kinda helpful lol these arnt nearly as good as fb,scourge,warrior or rev’s but it’s somthing

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I agree thief has to rely on said mechanics these days to stand a chance at downing anything due to these cry babies that just want free bags,if they die than class is op lol. They want the cheese mechanic changed or nurfed without any fixes as to why thieves have to rely on them in first place which would leave them useless which is what they want, funny thing is when a mirage,holo,fb,scourge or ranger player actually complains about a weak class as thief as being op, it’s hilarious. Oh wait gues I listed off most classes there didn’t i haha

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Like I said non thief players hate the thief architect and it’s mechanic, don’t like playing it or fighting it and won’t be happy untill they just stand their and take the beating or better yet just beat themselves to down state then they’ll be happy haha

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Sounds like u just don’t like fighting thief lok

>

> indeed, they usually die too fast and are really salty when they keep dying to a fellow thief.

 

When I die to a fellow thief I’m like meh it’s cuz I’m playing thief lol I’ve come to terms with the u make a mistake ur dead playstyle, and I make a lot of mistakes lol

[oOStaticOo.9467]

THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Resetting used to be reliable but not these days a soulbeast with owl/greatsword and bow will catch u easily and wreck u,same with mirage if their good,I’ve seen holo stealth rivaling DE and the hit fn harder than any thief lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think with wvw zergs players chose most effective means over most fun and that ok it’s their choice it’s just unfortunate if a player is left out because he chose the fun route over effectiveness tho all classes can help atleast a little in some areas of a Zerg. It’s understandable why they’d want their zergs full of the most effective classes though so it’s tough call both sides are right. A lot of classes can help but arnt considered good cuz their not the meta most effective ones. If I’m playing a non meta class I just follow the Zerg and help any way I can, I won’t turn the battle ever lol but I get some TY from revives or helping in any outer +1’s good enough for me lol

[PeLi.5498]

Support engi is still viable if you "know how to give superspeed allies". Just is a different play

[Israel.7056]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> It’s understandable why they’d want their zergs full of the most effective classes though so it’s tough call both sides are right.

 

No one side is demonstrably wrong. When you're doing any kind of squad based play you're playing as one single unit, working together as a team to achieve a common goal. People who choose to play what's "fun" over what works or what's needed are being completely selfish because they're prioritizing their fun time over what's best for the squad and in doing so they make themselves a burden to everyone else and a waste of a slot in squad and that's simply unacceptable. This is a team game, if you want to play for the team you are going to have to sacrifice some of your own fun for the good of the team, otherwise you don't get to play with the team.

 

It's absolutely no issue if people want to go do their own thing and run around on whatever build they please but once they're trying to join the squad they need to do what they're told or they get kicked end of story.

[syszery.1592]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

 

You can't read right? I said before how to counter malicious backstab... But some people (like you probably) are just so narrow minded and stick to their meta battle build...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

 

I agree with stealth being op, it woulda made more sense if they were gonna give class the duration in stealth it has than stealth shoulda been like the predator style where when u move ur viseable if the opponents are paying attention like a water like effect,and when ur still it’s hard to notice

[Artaz.3819]

LOL - OK, now take your "coordinated" idea of a bunch of Medium armor classes with Thieves, Ranger and Engineer variants and replace them with ... Mirages around creating vast fields of AoE, boon removal if needed (hybrid dps) and/or heavy evasion/reflect, and thermonuclear bursting where needed and creating huge amounts of lag via clones...don't forget good 'ole Veil and Portal bomb technique too especially if that Mirage heavy group used a Chrono spec or two.

 

Also remember that Stealth in general has been heavily nerfed thanks to the new Target Painter Trap and Revealed! which basically would shut you all down and be CC bombed/reflect bubbled by the 'meta' zerg makeup.

[TehHobNob.4687]

Medium classes are good in zergs if two conditions are met.

 

1) Appropriate comp. You cant have too many. This is true for thieves and roaming builds in pvp and it is just as true here. People like to generalize that a whole zerg of mediums is bad surprising no one.

 

2) They have to know what they are doing. You can look at a medium class (talking dp thief here for example not staff) for one fight and know if they are experienced or not. Do they squirrel? Do they die to aoe? Or do they time their spike with or just after the zerg push and pick out targets for a guaranteed kill and have enough management over their own cooldowns to set up again quickly and efficiently? This can optionally be expanded into working with a pick team.

 

If these conditions are met you get good results and salty whispers.

 

 

[Celsith.2753]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere.

 

But then it isn't a thief. Personally i'd prefer stealth variants to the evade for days monkeys. Much easier to kill so long as you are walking round with your eyes open and see/hear the stealth animation give aways.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

 

You just need more practice dealing with stealth in this game imo. There's counterplay to stealth but it's preemptive as well as reactive counter play. Most counter play is just reactive ;you do this I do that kinda stuff. Dealing with stealth is different. You have to get ahead of them. You have to anticipate the ambush. You have to use context clues and visual and audio cues to prepare yourself. The instant I hear a black powder go off somewhere I'm paranoid, I'm getting ready to get jumped. I'm ready to dodge, break stun etc. Also make sure you have "look behind" hotkeyed and use it often. Watch corners, use your peripheral vision. A lot of the time your brain knows someone just went invisible somewhere in your periphery even before you're fully consciously aware of it.

 

By the time they jump you you should have been waiting for it. If they open from stealth and you had no clue they were there and no expectation it was coming you're already way in the hole.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> Because no matter how much Rangers and thieves cry and moan that their class is viable it remains garbage, always has been garbage and will never be anything but garbage

 

Aren't the targets of rangers the ones who normally end up crying and moaning?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Trajan.4953" said:

> > Because no matter how much Rangers and thieves cry and moan that their class is viable it remains garbage, always has been garbage and will never be anything but garbage

>

> Aren't the targets of rangers the ones who normally end up crying and moaning?

 

Never woulda thought the day would come that this is true

[TwiceDead.1963]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

>

> Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

>

> It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

>

> Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

 

What is this, medi-scrapper build people are playing? It sounds fun.

 

EDIT: Nevermind I think I found it.

 

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Let's be honest here. I don't mind losing. I know somebody will always be better, faster, or use macros/hacks to beat me. I accept that. What I can't accept is running along and then BOOM!! out of nowhere I go down because some Thief Malicious Backstabbed me out of Stealth that I NEVER saw coming. Stealth deaths give your opponent NO opportunity to prepare or even retaliate. And THAT is not cool. Especially to new people to the game. There is no learning curve there. Just instant confusion, frustration, anger, and rage. Stealth is such a lazy mechanic. There is no real strategy involved. You Stealth, you sneak up on your unsuspecting opponent, you kill them. That's it. Very low risk and all the reward.

 

You literally can't be Malicious Backstabbed "Out of Nowhere". A thief has to build those malice stacks before he can get any use out of Malicious Backstab, which requires them to Mark and damage you first which is like blowing an airhorn directly into your opponents ear, announcing your intentions. If you can't notice the mark or the follow-up damage, the problem is not Malicious Backstab. It's just ye'good'olde'backstab.

 

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> DE is cheese and is strong but core and DD are not ok and are underperforming right now and should not be left like that just because DE needs some further stealth restrictions, and I feel the same for warriors and other specs who have specs that are underperforming especially if the other specs are being gutted because of one of the three specs are overtuned

 

ANET likes to keep Elite specs a step above the core traitlines, for obvious reasons. What's the point of buying expansions if there's nothing to gain? I think most HoT specs started getting toned down just before PoF released, probably to make those traitlines more attractive, because power sells. I suspect PoF will get toned down before the new expac.

 

Not okay with that? Neither am I, but that's where we're at. I'm happy we have SOME viable core specs. S/D being one of them.

[Hitman.5829]

because all of them run zerk gear and expect to live.