So are T4 fractals literally just raids now?

[thewaterguy.4796]

I keep running into this constantly, people requiring I provide a link to my ultra-meta pre-approved build before we start T4 fractals, I guess I'll just play T3 but this seems to have only come up in the past month...am I crazy?

 

If it is this way now, that's fine, just must have missed the memo where the community at large decided that T4 is only for pre-approved builds, not homecooked ones that a player finds more fun even if its not quite as powerful

[Stand The Wall.6987]

that sounds lame. I don't do t4s, but it sounds like the tryhards are ruining the fun.

[thewaterguy.4796]

I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

tl;dr ignore it and form your own group

(it's probably a combination of the holiday season and the coincidence of see more of this type of request, which has always been around in some fashion)

 

There have always been some people who ask PUGs to follow an imaginary meta, when T4 fractals and even CM and raids don't really require it. The problem is that many who have done 100s and 100s don't want to waste time. And there is no good way to ensure a smooth run. So people try to invent proxies to filter out those who aren't up to the challenge: kill proofs or gear pings or builds. And none of that guarantees a thing, except that people start off with an attitude.

 

To be fair, people with kill proofs are at least "less unlikely" to arrive without a clue and people running snowcrows or discretize builds are at least demonstrating that they've heard about maximizing DPS.

 

Regardless, the OP is entirely free to form their own groups. When we need PUGs to fill a gap in or static, one of us likes to as for "foods & pots," under the theory that anyone who has at least that is likely to be familiar with instabs etc (true more often than not) and it never takes long to fill a group. I usually ask folks to tell a joke (funny or not): this demonstrates nothing at all... except that they read the LFG and have a sense of humor, both of which turn out, imo, to be a better predictor to a good run than "kill proof."

[sigur.9453]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

 

Apparently your dps was to low and therefore a problem. Remember you are only one of 5 ppl in the group, if they have less fun because of you... You get the point

[thewaterguy.4796]

If people want to have THAT smooth a run, they shouldn't be PUG'ing, I'm fine with a slower run and running with other people who run less meta builds, apparently though the "Community" at large has decided that everyone should run a meta build and if you aren't your playing the game wrong and shouldn't be running T4 fractals, also the entire reason I play fractals and not raids is because I don't have 4 other people to play with so the "make your own group" thing really doesn't hold as much water, I have tried making my own groups before with...mixed results, most of the time you get people who stick to the everyone welcome thing, but sometimes you get people who come in and still expect a super smooth run where everyone is running meta, hence my original question, has the community decided that T4 is the realm of the try-hard raiders and T3 is for people who want a more casual run with homecooked builds?

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

 

Hate to say it, but in this particular circumstance, if the required DPS output wasn’t met to burst the boss like it usually is done, and your output was the lowest, you were the problem of that tactic failing. They asked you if you were familiar with a higher output build. That’s really normal for players in T4.

If you prefer your own builds, you can start your off-meta group yourself. Players learn to swap in/out things that are needed. Your defence and CC wasn’t needed. Damage was.

[thewaterguy.4796]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

>

> Hate to say it, but in this particular circumstance, if the required DPS output wasn’t met to burst the boss like it usually is done, and your output was the lowest, you were the problem of that tactic failing. They asked you if you were familiar with a higher output build. That’s really normal for players in T4.

> If you prefer your own builds, you can start your off-meta group yourself. Players learn to swap in/out things that are needed. Your defence and CC wasn’t needed. Damage was.

 

Okay, but you understand my point about this feeling very...raidy right? Like the implication is you haven't built your character "properly" and this group did not have any stipulations about "need dps" nothing of the sort, it was just t4 dailies, if it had "LF DPS" in the title I would never have joined in the first place

 

I've run T4 fractals for years now, and I've never had anyone tell me I need to completely change my build, sure once in awhile "can you switch to "X" skill for this" and I happily obliged but the "can you fundamentally redesign your build" has never come up before

[sigur.9453]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > > I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

> >

> > Hate to say it, but in this particular circumstance, if the required DPS output wasn’t met to burst the boss like it usually is done, and your output was the lowest, you were the problem of that tactic failing. They asked you if you were familiar with a higher output build. That’s really normal for players in T4.

> > If you prefer your own builds, you can start your off-meta group yourself. Players learn to swap in/out things that are needed. Your defence and CC wasn’t needed. Damage was.

>

> Okay, but you understand my point about this feeling very...raidy right? Like the implication is you haven't built your character "properly" and this group did not have any stipulations about "need dps" nothing of the sort, it was just t4 dailies, if it had "LF DPS" in the title I would never have joined in the first place

>

> I've run T4 fractals for years now, and I've never had anyone tell me I need to completely change my build, sure once in awhile "can you switch to "X" skill for this" and I happily obliged but the "can you fundamentally redesign your build" has never come up before

 

First : obviously you need to bring dps into fractals. Even if it's not stated. Noone needs your good looks to complete the content.

 

Second : when it was the first time, how did you deside its the best idea to make a forum thread about an isolated incident after years of playing?

[thewaterguy.4796]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > > > I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

> > >

> > > Hate to say it, but in this particular circumstance, if the required DPS output wasn’t met to burst the boss like it usually is done, and your output was the lowest, you were the problem of that tactic failing. They asked you if you were familiar with a higher output build. That’s really normal for players in T4.

> > > If you prefer your own builds, you can start your off-meta group yourself. Players learn to swap in/out things that are needed. Your defence and CC wasn’t needed. Damage was.

> >

> > Okay, but you understand my point about this feeling very...raidy right? Like the implication is you haven't built your character "properly" and this group did not have any stipulations about "need dps" nothing of the sort, it was just t4 dailies, if it had "LF DPS" in the title I would never have joined in the first place

> >

> > I've run T4 fractals for years now, and I've never had anyone tell me I need to completely change my build, sure once in awhile "can you switch to "X" skill for this" and I happily obliged but the "can you fundamentally redesign your build" has never come up before

>

> First : obviously you need to bring dps into fractals. Even if it's not stated. Noone needs your good looks to complete the content.

>

> Second : when it was the first time, how did you deside its the best idea to make a forum thread about an isolated incident after years of playing?

 

Because I haven't played Fractals in awhile and if this is the case I need to know? And I do bring dps, the build is a dps-build, just not pure, seriously we keep getting off on these tangents, nobody so far has answered my question, are we now considering T4 to be the realm of meta-builds with lower Tiers being for people like me? If so that is fine by me, just would be nice to know no need to get snippy mate, I posted this in players helping players because its a genuine question, if I wanted a discussion I'd have posted it in Fractals and Raids

[sigur.9453]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > > @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> > > > > I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

> > > >

> > > > Hate to say it, but in this particular circumstance, if the required DPS output wasn’t met to burst the boss like it usually is done, and your output was the lowest, you were the problem of that tactic failing. They asked you if you were familiar with a higher output build. That’s really normal for players in T4.

> > > > If you prefer your own builds, you can start your off-meta group yourself. Players learn to swap in/out things that are needed. Your defence and CC wasn’t needed. Damage was.

> > >

> > > Okay, but you understand my point about this feeling very...raidy right? Like the implication is you haven't built your character "properly" and this group did not have any stipulations about "need dps" nothing of the sort, it was just t4 dailies, if it had "LF DPS" in the title I would never have joined in the first place

> > >

> > > I've run T4 fractals for years now, and I've never had anyone tell me I need to completely change my build, sure once in awhile "can you switch to "X" skill for this" and I happily obliged but the "can you fundamentally redesign your build" has never come up before

> >

> > First : obviously you need to bring dps into fractals. Even if it's not stated. Noone needs your good looks to complete the content.

> >

> > Second : when it was the first time, how did you deside its the best idea to make a forum thread about an isolated incident after years of playing?

>

> Because I haven't played Fractals in awhile and if this is the case I need to know? And I do bring dps, the build is a dps-build, just not pure, seriously we keep getting off on these tangents, nobody so far has answered my question, are we now considering T4 to be the realm of meta-builds with lower Tiers being for people like me? If so that is fine by me, just would be nice to know no need to get snippy mate

 

To answer:depends on the group.like before.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

 

I missed this response as I was typing my earlier one. Here's the thing: the specific strategy of bursting the slime ASAP requires a lot of DPS. A single person being "low" can derail it, unless the others on the team are doing beyond "their share."

 

We can argue whether people should cheeze the fight like that or not, but the fact is: you were in a group where that was the accepted strategy, and your DPS was low enough that someone politely commented on it. This has nothing to do with you choosing a "homemade" build and everything to do with mismatch of expectations: you expect that anything goes, and other people don't.

 

By your own words, they did not ask you to run a raid build; they just asked if you had something else with more DPS. That's not "very raidy". It was a reasonable request _in the context_ of that particular fight. I'm a little surprised that someone with experience in T4 hasn't seen the slime burst or, having seen it, been unaware of what's required to make it work.

 

Now, to be fair , the LFG phrasing allowed for the misunderstanding, so that's on the organizer. And to be fair, it's can be done with even just two strong DPS players (with enough support and a little DPS from the others). But generally, it's really smooth if everyone is "pulling their weight" and a real mess if the group falls short.

 

****

In other words: there was a mismatch of goals

The OP thinks that "anything goes" and the reality is that most groups expect that each 20% of the team will pull their own weight, whether with DPS or something else. It's fine when the group is 5/5 "thematic to my character" players; it's fine when there are five "let's have enough DPS to phase quickly enough." It's a problem when it's 4:1 or even 3:2.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

 

To be fair they didn't ask you to switch to a meta-build, just one with more DPS. If you're confident making builds and you understand the choices you've made to get more defence and CC you could swap some of those skills/traits for higher damage. Or you could explain why you think the defence and CC is important and help the group find another solution.

 

An important part of theory crafting is understanding what works where and why and swapping things around as needed. I definitely have my favourite skills and traits for each character, which I'll use most of the time, but I'll change them if I know I'm facing a particular type of enemy or situation which makes them less effective (or makes something else important). Working with the group is important too, which sometimes means agreeing to take on a role that's not your favourite because that's what's needed.

 

Or if you're not happy doing that make your own group so you get first pick and then you can find people to work with you.

[thewaterguy.4796]

This will be my last post on this thread, I need to apologize to both of the other players who responded, it was disrespectful and wrong to react in the way I did, and trust me its nothing to do with you, I've had alot of other stuff going on, but I don't feel right if I don't apologize

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"thewaterguy.4796" said:

> This will be my last post on this thread, I need to apologize to both of the other players who responded, it was disrespectful and wrong to react in the way I did, and trust me its nothing to do with you, I've had alot of other stuff going on, but I don't feel right if I don't apologize

 

Thanks for taking the time to post about it.

 

(For what it's worth, I didn't take the since-removed comments personally. I didn't see any posts that were... ticklish, so I just ignored the parenthetical bits.)

 

(Also for what it's worth: my take away from that earlier post was that you read the feedback with an open mind. As a result, you reconsidered your stance. Even so, still you don't like the state of affairs and you weren't entirely convinced. That part seemed reasonable and respectful, which was why I didn't worry about the throwaway line that came after.)

 

****

On the topic of the thread... I do think there's an open question about what's the best way for players with divergent styles to avoid joining up by accident, while still being easy to find like-minded for parties. Fractals can definitely be done with builds that are more suitable thematically, with little focus on efficiency. It might take longer (a lot longer, imo), but that doesn't mean every group has to be doing even 50% of peak benchmark, in DPS or speed.

 

The problem is ANet can lead a player to the LFG, but no one can make them read and agree to the requirements posted.

[Irensaga.6935]

I think the discussion still leaves the question unanswered of - "is it realistic for players to expect optimized meta-play when they are... well... running in freaking PUGs?"

 

If you want optimization, isn't the quick answer to that - "don't PUG"?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Irensaga.6935" said:

> I think the discussion still leaves the question unanswered of - "is it realistic for players to expect optimized meta-play when they are... well... running in freaking PUGs?"

>

> If you want optimization, isn't the quick answer to that - "don't PUG"?

 

There's a huge range between support levels of damage (under 2k) and optimized meta play. When we have 2-3 PUGs in our group, it's not uncommon to see 25k+ from the DPS builds. This wasn't an example of people asking for "optimized meta-play;" it was a case of trying to run a PUG-friendly strategy, running into difficulty, and the OP being asked if they could offer an alternative.

 

Or let me put it another way: do you think it's unrealistic to expect any minimum amount of damage from T4 PUGlings? If so, where would you draw the line? At 15k? (already below "optimal" or "meta") 10k? 5k? 2k?

[phs.6089]

I pug, hardly care of any build, if person manages to carry own weight, we never have problems. If I see person is trying and gets things done even bit less dps, I don't care.

We carried a ranger/soulbests recently, with 2k dps. Eventually our crono run outta patience and asked about the gear. Soulbeast was running marshal. We kindly explained that it is not the best chose for the class.

Again carry own weight and you won't have any problems.

 

[Eutuxia.1537]

There two types of "pug"ing in fractal t4

1)lfg " t4 daily n recs"

2) lfg "t4 lf dps, druid.chrono"

Now you will want to choose first one if you are worried about you not performing well or just want run your own build :P Second group you gotta carry your own weight or else expect to get kicked or flamed.

[Doto.6357]

It’s not unrealistic to expect people to run the best possible build they can when pugging. Plenty of pugs run meta, so this whole “don’t expect meta if u pug” argument has no grounds in reality. You are, of course, free to play whatever build you want, but if a group is asking for meta or is asking you to swap or leave for not contributing, you have to respect that. Don’t be surprised if people don’t want to waste their time just so you can play a silly build, you’re having fun at their expense.

[Deimos.4263]

Genuine question (from someone who isn't anywhere near t4 and probably never will be): Are t4 fractals timed?

 

If not, it seems like you should just find a group that isn't in a rush. The reason DPS is so important in raids is that there's a timer. Why worry about damage over time if there's no timer?

[SidewayS.3789]

> @"Deimos.4263" said:

> Genuine question (from someone who isn't anywhere near t4 and probably never will be): Are t4 fractals timed?

>

> If not, it seems like you should just find a group that isn't in a rush. The reason DPS is so important in raids is that there's a timer. Why worry about damage over time if there's no timer?

 

Because we (the veterans) have completed fractals for hundreds over hundreds times, so now we want a quick run. Usually my CMs+T4+Rec is around 1h and a few minutes (if one of those CMs are daily, much faster). Even though there is no timers (like in raids) for T4, most of the ppls wants a fast and clean run.

[Irensaga.6935]

I'm mostly being devil's advocate here. I don't run Fractales yet. If I did, I'd head over to MetaBattle and make sure I had a meta build for it and would at least try to practice my rotation. But elitism and veteran players who want nothing but speed runs are currently intimidating me from getting into them.

 

There's two sides to the story here.

 

On the one hand - I totally get that veterans have done this a bazillion times and are just farming the content now and want a nice clean speedy run without having to hold some newbies hand and carry them. If the newbie were to complain about the hostile environment, they'd probably say - toughen up or get good, or go find a friendly guild to carry your butt through content.

 

But on the other hand - this attitude does create a hostile environment for new players like me who just hate the idea of stressing out trying to keep up with a lot of jaded vets who don't even like the game anymore and are taking out their hostility on you. Neophytes like me could also make the argument to vets - if you don't like having to deal with the occasional "carry" with politeness and good humor, don't PUG - go find yourself an elite guild and avoid having to deal with this at all.

 

So the same arguments cut both ways here.

[Irensaga.6935]

I mean, I'm an Elementalist main. That means I'm squishy and I'm likely to get curb-stomped a lot by mechanics I'm not used to. It happens to me in open-world group events anyway - even when I'm using "meta" builds.

 

The idea of being constantly rezzed by a bunch of elite players who are tearing their hair out in frustration at the goober who doesn't know what to do until they finally snap and chew me out or kick me...

 

It's not really appealing.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Irensaga.6935" said:

> But on the other hand - this attitude does create a hostile environment for new players like me who just hate the idea of stressing out trying to keep up with a lot of jaded vets who don't even like the game anymore and are taking out their hostility on you.

 

Except that's not what the OP reported. All we know is that one person ask if they had another build they could swap to. They wrote:

> I ask because recently after failing to destroy the slime in Thaumanova in one burst, people were apparently watching the dps turned to me and said "Do you have an alternate build because dps is low" I run berserker but I focus on some defense and cc, its a homemade build I find fun and thematic to my character, but apparently thats a problem

 

 

> Neophytes like me could also make the argument to vets - if you don't like having to deal with the occasional "carry" with politeness and good humor,

 

Again, the OP didn't actually claim they were treated with rudeness. They are saying that they ran a thematic build rather than worrying about any other consideration.s.

 

> don't PUG - go find yourself an elite guild and avoid having to deal with this at all.

T4 fractals don't require elite level of game play. Again, there's a huge range between the lowest observed DPS and the highest in T4 PUG situations.

 

>

> So the same arguments cut both ways here.

What is the argument that you think is being made? T4 fractals are designed as challenging group content; it's not "anything goes." And people aren't saying, "we refuse to tolerate it." They asked if the OP had anything else they could bring.

 

In instanced content, each person's build affects four or nine other players. The group is unnecessarily hamstrung if someone chooses to bring a custom build without regard for its appropriateness to the specific content.