Israel.7056 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Sylosi.6503" said: > There is nothing more amusing in GW2 than the irony of being on TS/Discord (or watching a stream) where some guy is calling the group or individual they just beat terrible, oblivious to the reality that in 2018 more than ever WvW is trash tier PvP and if they were even vaguely decent they would be off playing a skilled, competitive PvP game, not pseudo PvP for PvE players. This is about as good as it gets for an MMORPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad. > > > > If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn? > > Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn. I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn. Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that. "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Sylosi.6503" said: > > There is nothing more amusing in GW2 than the irony of being on TS/Discord (or watching a stream) where some guy is calling the group or individual they just beat terrible, oblivious to the reality that in 2018 more than ever WvW is trash tier PvP and if they were even vaguely decent they would be off playing a skilled, competitive PvP game, not pseudo PvP for PvE players. > > This is about as good as it gets for an MMORPG. Yeah people keep saying that, but nobody will share which game it is. I thought it was kinda funny seeing Mithril Warhammers active in the Crowfall alpha. Those guys are so set on the perfect mmo that they haven't actually played one in a decade. Seems kinda like saving yourself for the perfect girl into your 40's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TokenG.7863 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > > Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad. > > > > > > If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn? > > > > Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn. > > I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn. > > Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that. > > "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it. Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than piss and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > > > Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad. > > > > > > > > If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn? > > > > > > Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn. > > > > I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn. > > > > Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that. > > > > "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it. > > Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than kitten and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else. If there were people interested in learning, I would gladly teach them. But no, you tell people that what they are doing is wrong and tell them what they need to change and they all groan and moan about how they wanna play their way and I'm tryharding... Most of these people don't want to learn. They want to be carried by the better players instead of improving themselves. So no, I'm not wasting time with people who don't want to learn. I already do enough of this in real life (as it is my job) to do that on my entertaiment time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what _is a PvP mode._ You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPanda.1872 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Stop forcibly link players by guessing future activities with past data while keeping the kitten transfer cost so low. We could start with transfer cost...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger.2035 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Please transfer to Sorrows Furnace so you can teach me and carry me. Maybe we can become a real server again! As for the balance I don’t like any of the options above. I would just like them to focus on keeping power creep in check and try to find a way to improve unused skills and traits to improve build diversity. It seems like most professions are using the same subset of skills and traits since there aren’t any competitive alternatives. I would also like it if they didn’t use elite specs to sell new expansions. It’s been pretty obvious that they nerf the previous specializations with each expansion. I doubt this will ever happen but it would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger.2035 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 As for population balance, it would be funny if ArenaNet counters the most over stacked alliance by grouping them with the worst players possible. Give them all of the rally bots and noobs to make it a fair match up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what _is a PvP mode._ > > You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW. This is an interesting point. I wonder if they were to restrict all of the "Pure" dps stats and "pure" defense stats if this would make the game more balanced. Less extremes, more middle. I personally think the powercreep and speed of play has ruined WvW. It is beyond hope of improvement, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 "the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high" . . . fix the . . . uhmm Pretty sure, WvW doesn't work like that, and was never designed with the idea in mind, that casuals are a burden. Let's face the circle of doom: big scale mode without skill-based matchmaking -> above-average player complains about casuals -> semi-pro complains about the above-average player, and casuals -> pro complains about the semi-pro, above-average player, and casuals -> uber pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with -> now, since the uber pro is gone, the pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with -> etc. Teaching players would just bring back the pro's, that would bring back the uber pro's, and complaining would start again. Wanna break the circle of doom? Stop complaining about "incompetent" players. (Though, teaching the ones that are willing to get taught, is still a welcome option, of course ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getalifeturd.8139 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 This game has always been non-competitive and promotes bad sportsmanship. Ever since release the best tactic has been staff 1 guardian braindead zergs. The game is not balanced by Arenanet and the players who play this game love it. There is no sportsmanship because the whole game has always been about transfer to the winning server to win. Arenanet encourages this because it makes them money. Changing your build to the most overpowered skills and traits every patch is skill in GW2. If your class gets nerfed most people would be better off just rerolling to the most overpowered class that hasn't been nerfed that patch. Instead of practicing just try to get the classes that kill you nerfed that's the GW2 way. Don't forget to buy the next expansion because they will nerf the old elite specs to force people to use the new ones. More power creep so instead of 1v1ing we can just 1shot each other. I've said it before and I'll say it again when everybody else has quit this game all that's left will be the trolls and gankers. What happens when the next expansion comes out and Arenanet adds more power creep to the game? Players only complain if they can't kill somebody. Nobody cares if they 1-hit others because people are biased and subjective. True objective balance is impossible because the human race is competitive and vengeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what _is a PvP mode._ > > You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW. I guess the thought would be that the 1 v 1 matchups would be more balanced? Or what, with the amulet system, would it impact as far as ‘balance’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TokenG.7863 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > > > @"TokenG.7863" said: > > > > > > Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad. > > > > > > > > > > If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn? > > > > > > > > Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn. > > > > > > I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn. > > > > > > Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that. > > > > > > "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it. > > > > Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than kitten and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else. > > If there were people interested in learning, I would gladly teach them. But no, you tell people that what they are doing is wrong and tell them what they need to change and they all groan and moan about how they wanna play their way and I'm tryharding... Most of these people don't want to learn. They want to be carried by the better players instead of improving themselves. > > So no, I'm not wasting time with people who don't want to learn. I already do enough of this in real life (as it is my job) to do that on my entertaiment time... Yes, that is the mentality that I'm speaking about. There are some who willingly accept new people and take them in to teach them. There are the other who don't want to waste their "entertainment time" playing with people who aren't on their level. Yes, I realize that just like in RL, there are people who want to leach off of others and not put in the work. But what you put in is what you get out. Nothing comes for free. I'm just making the statement that so many people complain about the game mode being dead and irreversible but there are also so many who want to do nothing to help alleviate some of the symptom. I'm just drawing this off of the idea that skilled competition is desired more over player load balance. But you need load balance in order to make skilled competition fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > "the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high" . . . fix the . . . uhmm > > Pretty sure, WvW doesn't work like that, and was never designed with the idea in mind, that casuals are a burden. > > Let's face the circle of doom: big scale mode without skill-based matchmaking > -> above-average player complains about casuals > -> semi-pro complains about the above-average player, and casuals > -> pro complains about the semi-pro, above-average player, and casuals > -> uber pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with > -> now, since the uber pro is gone, the pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with > -> etc. > > Teaching players would just bring back the pro's, that would bring back the uber pro's, and complaining would start again. Wanna break the circle of doom? Stop complaining about "incompetent" players. (Though, teaching the ones that are willing to get taught, is still a welcome option, of course ;) ) The point im making is that balancing servers coverage based on numbers alone with no consideration of competence will not necessarily create more balanced weekly matchups because the competence gap that exists between the "casuals" and the "hardcore" crowd is immense and always slowly increasing. They may not have designed the game mode with the intent that the "casuals" would one day be at a severe disadvantage against the more dedicated "hardcore" players but it's happened anyways as it always does. This situation exists and will continue to exist whether we talk about it or not. I think it's better to talk about it and risk hurting some feels in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Israel.7056" said: > The point im making is that balancing servers coverage based on numbers alone with no consideration of competence will not necessarily create more balanced weekly matchups because the competence gap that exists between the "casuals" and the "hardcore" crowd is immense and always slowly increasing. As I understood it, this is already on the list. _"World Creation builds teams so they have similar predicted participation, **skill**,..."_ Though, I dont know, how they want to define and determine this "skill". Feb. 08: > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said: > World Creation builds teams so they have similar predicted participation, skill, coverage, and language. Team assignment moves players onto teams by calculating the contribution value of a player and using that calculation to distribute players fairly. We plan to track stats like play hours in WvW, commander time and squad size, time of day, and participation levels. The exact stats have yet to be determined and we are open to suggestions of other stats to use in this system. This new system will expand upon the current calculation that uses play hours for linking. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > Though, I dont know, how they want to define and determine this "skill". Experience is quantifiable, though I don't know how thorough their metrics are per player. Measuring relative skill is something that takes a more hands on evaluative approach. You cannot know just how good someone is by the number of hours they've played or the number of keeps they've taken or whatever statistic one wishes to look at though I suppose one can make some reasonable assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Other: Finding a game invested in its competitive modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 The first chose anet cant control you simply cant make ppl play when you want them the player will play when they want to. Classes are not balanced for 1v1 at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TokenG.7863 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I think the restructure will help in this. In the end if they have to set alliance caps small enough that only 30 or 40 ppl fit in them to achieve balance then I guess that's what it'll have to be. If the problem is that there aren't enough skilled opponents to fight outside of your friends, then they might force you to fight your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"TokenG.7863" said: > I think the restructure will help in this. In the end if they have to set alliance caps small enough that only 30 or 40 ppl fit in them to achieve balance then I guess that's what it'll have to be. If the problem is that there aren't enough skilled opponents to fight outside of your friends, then they might force you to fight your friends. Depends on what that means in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 No more zone blobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimator.3589 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloRules.3560 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Optimator.3589" said: > Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers. That's just bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Optimator.3589" said: > Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers. One hundred percent agree tbh but I guess that's what alliances are supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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