juno.1840 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 So broken - it is one of the reasons why WvW is not as much fun as it use to be. This is just one of many toxic mechanics the game allows in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Would DE players be upset if stealth was like predator style stealth? > > Would thieves care if a core game mechanic was changed to satisfy a vocal minority? > > Depends on what buffs were introduced to compensate. > > But seriously, this is not a good idea. Does this break target? Does tab targeting work? Click targeting? Or no targeting so you can only use attacks that don’t need a target? Does this New Stealth adequately reduce damage to compensate for increased damage? > > There are a ton of things that would need to be rebalanced. It just makes more sense to just give most classes an ability to mark targets (which reveals them after being in stealth for 3 seconds—not the current 2 seconds b/c that short circuits short term stealth applications). That way you can fight against permastealth. > > As to the raw damage out of stealth you have to remember that WvW is full of towers and sentries and traps to mark enemies. Now they can’t permastealth and you should see them coming. I would say stealth cloak would do what stealth does now as far as break target etc I still think it would promote sniper playstyle. I have no prob with DE one shorting on a build not even built for pure burst, it’s a sniper rifle, it taking multiple shots to down someone seems silly to me. With that said it should not only have a tell that gives a player a small window to counter and should take a comparable amount of tact and set up to achieve said damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Seems like arena net is lazy with design,thief had dps spec before was neutered, DE coulda been great support spec. Long range class with cloak ability that does high damage that requires high tact and set up that when kneeling each type of shot has different damage/effect on target that causes different aoe boons for each shot type to allies in radius of target. Longe range support and damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > btw current assassin signet is like that since PoF prepatch. Core DD is far easier to deal with then deadeye. i mean Deadeye is only doing the dodge bullshit and off he is u cant prevent him from dodging as u didnt even saw him coming. Core DD was most of the time played > steal > c n d > backstab. u could see it coming not much core dd's played under perma stealth cus he would lose a ton of dmg not even sure if core dd could stay in perma stealth.. anyway.. core DD > steal > c n d > backstab > wants to run off he either ports off with shadow step or backwards from where he came from. but he wont be able to enter evade from to go into stealth and then gain big distance from rifle 3? skill i dunno whatever makes u port backwards. so Core dd was far easier to deal with as u could predict it more or less where he was gonna be also even if he did regain stealth he would be either too far away to get to you or you know he is fucking close and can atleast react. with deadeye it wont come out of stealth cus it can stay perma in it even 1s after combat. DE is broken in so many ways it should get ditched off from thief class cus all whats gonna happen is thief nerf this nerf that nerf balaba and only thing that get kicked hard in the nuts is core and Daredevil, while anet is trying to balance DE when they finally got it right the other 2 class will underperform cus they refuse to touch DE elite line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? After a backstab? Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. DE doesn't truly have that window. Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. So why do you think that is? Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage Has that changed all of a sudden? And what build? And why aren't people running that instead? Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- As in MalBS to Meld. You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 The one shot damage shot has to be built up or somthing with no aoe boons for balancing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silv.1723 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Deadeye was in a good spot before the "great rework". People complained...all thief specs got nerved several times. Again and again. No matter what they do..there will be people asking for more nerfs. The problem with deadeye is that the entire spec is designed around stealth. It seems that the devs just can't find a way to balance deadeye. They can't just take the stealth away. Without it deadeye is just a walking target compared with other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"reddie.5861" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > btw current assassin signet is like that since PoF prepatch. > > Core DD is far easier to deal with then deadeye. > i mean Deadeye is only doing the dodge kitten and off he is u cant prevent him from dodging as u didnt even saw him coming. > > Core DD was most of the time played > steal > c n d > backstab. u could see it coming > not much core dd's played under perma stealth cus he would lose a ton of dmg not even sure if core dd could stay in perma stealth.. > > anyway.. > core DD > steal > c n d > backstab > wants to run off > > he either ports off with shadow step or backwards from where he came from. > but he wont be able to enter evade from to go into stealth and then gain big distance from rifle 3? skill i dunno whatever makes u port backwards. > so Core dd was far easier to deal with as u could predict it more or less where he was gonna be also even if he did regain stealth he would be either too far away to get to you or you know he is kitten close and can atleast react. > with deadeye it wont come out of stealth cus it can stay perma in it even 1s after combat. > > > DE is broken in so many ways it should get ditched off from thief class cus all whats gonna happen is thief nerf this nerf that nerf balaba > and only thing that get kicked hard in the nuts is core and Daredevil, while anet is trying to balance DE when they finally got it right the other 2 class will underperform cus they refuse to touch DE elite line. ^ this I don’t want anyone’s fun ruined I just don’t want core/DD to take anymore hits due to DE balancing issues. Core/DD needs some little buffs imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > After a backstab? > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > DE doesn't truly have that window. > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > So why do you think that is? > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > Has that changed all of a sudden? > And what build? > And why aren't people running that instead? > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > As in MalBS to Meld. > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. so its shadowmeld causing the difference? assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Order.7258 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Cheese is what defines Anets pvp in both settings. Poor balance and "slippery" classes have pushed most people away. You have two choices. 1. Play the cheese and think it's your skills stomping others or 2. Continue to relive the same frustrating experiences while trying to play a class you like and maybe after 20+ gem store updates something might change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"reddie.5861" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > btw current assassin signet is like that since PoF prepatch. > > > > Core DD is far easier to deal with then deadeye. > > i mean Deadeye is only doing the dodge kitten and off he is u cant prevent him from dodging as u didnt even saw him coming. > > > > Core DD was most of the time played > steal > c n d > backstab. u could see it coming > > not much core dd's played under perma stealth cus he would lose a ton of dmg not even sure if core dd could stay in perma stealth.. > > > > anyway.. > > core DD > steal > c n d > backstab > wants to run off > > > > he either ports off with shadow step or backwards from where he came from. > > but he wont be able to enter evade from to go into stealth and then gain big distance from rifle 3? skill i dunno whatever makes u port backwards. > > so Core dd was far easier to deal with as u could predict it more or less where he was gonna be also even if he did regain stealth he would be either too far away to get to you or you know he is kitten close and can atleast react. > > with deadeye it wont come out of stealth cus it can stay perma in it even 1s after combat. > > > > > > DE is broken in so many ways it should get ditched off from thief class cus all whats gonna happen is thief nerf this nerf that nerf balaba > > and only thing that get kicked hard in the nuts is core and Daredevil, while anet is trying to balance DE when they finally got it right the other 2 class will underperform cus they refuse to touch DE elite line. > > ^ this > I don’t want anyone’s fun ruined I just don’t want core/DD to take anymore hits due to DE balancing issues. Core/DD needs some little buffs imho In addition to this Note that the second thief who ganked the necro in the vid. Didn't use assassins signet until the other thief was already downed. So it's not JUST assassins signet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > After a backstab? > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > So why do you think that is? > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > And what build? > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that. > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC. > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it. Anyway. If anyone has free time and is good with math I would love to see test done on MalBS. I think it may be getting an extra 10% somewhere against a target that isn't marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > After a backstab? > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > > So why do you think that is? > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > > And what build? > > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that. the first adds more because of the minor trait. so basically you get dmg for marking as such and damage specifically on that MalBS. > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC. it changed the value. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Signet/history look at what it was before august 2017 > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. > > I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it. that is indeed also a complaint, but a different one than we can see in the above video. also the 2nd one attacking the necro didnt even take half the necros life while building malice to m7, then the other finished it with several more shots that you can hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > After a backstab? > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > So why do you think that is? > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > And what build? > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. The gw community is notorious for op threads on any mechanics or skills that are not op but are very effective,the fact no one has ever complained about assassin signet all these yrs and why all the complaints about DE have no mention of it and are based on perma stealth that should tell u somthing, stop trying to blame somthing that has nothing to do with the other and will further negatively effect specs that arnt in question,u sure ur not on erenets balance team lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Food effect, take 33% less damage from stealth attacks,there fixed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > > > After a backstab? > > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > > > So why do you think that is? > > > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > > > And what build? > > > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > > > > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that. > the first adds more because of the minor trait. so basically you get dmg for marking as such and damage specifically on that MalBS. > > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > > The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC. > it changed the value. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Signet/history > look at what it was before august 2017 > > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. > > > > I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it. > > that is indeed also a complaint, but a different one than we can see in the above video. > > also the 2nd one attacking the necro didnt even take half the necros life while building malice to m7, then the other finished it with several more shots that you can hear. > In competitive game modes full invisibility shouldn’t have ever been allowed,it’s a mess in any pvp game so I don’t kno what erenanet was thinking, a substantial cloaking duration on kneel that allows for the sniper wait for shot playstyle and during movement a distortion to full view which re cloaked on kneel would have way made way more sense/balanced playstyle that actually suits a sniper class. Seriously the arenet higher ups need to take a long look at the game their names on and make some hard decisions on its staffs discussions and maybe employment situation. Especially if their looking to run another decade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > After a backstab? > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > > So why do you think that is? > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > > And what build? > > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. > > The gw community is notorious for op threads on any mechanics or skills that are not op but are very effective,the fact no one has ever complained about assassin signet all these yrs and why all the complaints about DE have no mention of it and are based on perma stealth that should tell u somthing, stop trying to blame somthing that has nothing to do with the other and will further negatively effect specs that arnt in question,u sure ur not on erenets balance team lol there have been people mentioning assassins signet long ago, but indeed many just see that they do not see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Totally eliminates the stealth back stab bs,ofcourse that trait on thief that gives thief bonuses on flank or backstab could be buffed to make it worth using to compensate for loss of stealth back stab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > And yes, I know that this is, like, my opinion man. But if DE were deleted from GW2 today, only a small fraction of the playerbase would be upset. Some players would quit GW2, others would quit thief, while others might go back to S/D or Staff DD, but the vast majority of PvP players would celebrate it. > same can be said about your ranger. Haven't played Ranger in 5 months, but whatever. You also don't see me defending current Boonbeast though, do you? I stand by what I said: > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > Attacks from stealth should be an opener, not an opener and finisher in one. I've played PvP in MMO's where permastealth exists. The difference? Not only was stealth detection a thing every player had, not only could you pull an opponent out of stealth by inflicting damage (AoE), they were not able to one shot you from stealth. There was always a window to respond. Now look at the player video the OP linked again. That first encounter the player was downed from an opponent who appeared from nowhere. Sure, the 2nd time he knew they were there, etc, but that first gank was unexpected and there wasn't anything he could do. And that is OK? Whenever a player is anywhere in WvW they can't complain about getting insta-gibbed by a player they couldn't see, because at least then they know a DE is around, and now they can be "careful". Or perhaps they should be running a build / gear for the sole purpose of dealing with this one spec? Any attack that can instadown a player from stealth should be addressed, I don't care from what profession or spec. DEs are even worse though because you may not even have a chance to see them in the area, vs. a Thief/Mesmer/ranger/engineer who disappears briefly before opening up on you. Someone above said "vocal minority". Well, everyone who posts on this forum is that minority. Most GW2 players don't post here or on Reddit. But of "the minority" who post, look around, and see how many are complaining about DE. A permastealth DE has more power than other profession or elite in the entire game, if only because they always choose when to fight and when to not. If they had that power and wimpy damage I'd say it was balanced, but clearly it's not the case. I understand DE mains not wanting their spec nerfed. Just don't act so scandalized when players of the other 8 professions complain that fighting a DE is unfair, unfun, and needs to change. Sadly it's up to ANET to make the right decision here, and until then we wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 How is it that the same group of people make a thread with multiple chopped up videos and nearly the same exact number of Thumbs Up each in a short amount of time yet they're the only ones agreeing with each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > -snip- you see anet does alot different about stealth in this game. first it is entirely resource based. every second of stealth has a cost attached to it. so for permastealth you have to constantly put resources to keep it up. the tools you need for this may occupy slots that could be used for other tools helping in a fight. many other games have cheap basically free out of combat permastealth. thats a huge difference. many of those games that break on taking damage require a target for most skills and do not have GW2s abundance of AoE. then stealth is not profession exclusive because anet made ways to share stealth. this means technically as this game has group combat , ANYONE can use ANY skill out of stealth. therefor if you do not want to see openers that are finishers, then no skill in the game should be able to deal that damage to begin with. high dmg skills on many professions will have 0 animation from stealth as that is not something the profession can give themselves easily. IMO gw2 stealth is in soo many points different from other games stealth, that you cant easily say wich one is stronger. > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > I understand DE mains not wanting their spec nerfed. Just don't act so scandalized when players of the other 8 professions complain that fighting a DE is unfair, unfun, and needs to change. i currently do not play much deadeye. i wouldnt care much if they overall get nerfed. however most complains are about 'fun' not about the impact of deadeye on the score. meaning its not unbalanced, its unfun. therfore i do not expect nerfs, but with too many complains we might get changes. they might nerf stealth, but will you like anets compensation after it? i dont think that a sniper spec on thief will be viable and fun for this community. but i dont expect anet to make them unviable till before the next espec. aside from that i want people to think a bit more what really is their issue with given professions and if their suggested changes do change it at all? or are they just going to alter it a little. for example: you dont want to get oneshot by a backstab out of nowhere? then just reducing deadeye stealth access wont fix your problem, but the compensation that might be granted for it can actually make it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I don't think this build/playstyle is healthy for the game, but I also don't think this is high on the priority list of things to change. This only works against maybe 3 professions - and that's generally the victims fault anyway for building almost exclusively glass and then attempting to roam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleron.1438 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Occasional roamers or zerglings will most likely be oblivious to the following but anyways, here's my 2cents of coherence... First off, let's take in situational awareness: Did you check map chat if there had been any callouts info about spawn camping or duo thief roamers? No worries if we're none yet. But you should've noticed right at first exiting that there were an unusual amount of players standing on the spawn exit steps, that should've been your first alarm that a spawn camping is in effect. Unfortunately we've Lemmings can't seem to read a map so fail to see that there are 2 side exits too to spawns. And the right side exit in your server colour is the safest if enemy controls both towers with watchtowers radar. Uphill path leading to keep bridge shows no enemy visible, that's your warning there's a thief nearby at minimum. Now being a thief yourself you could've stacked stealth or slotted shadow refuge to exit camp unoticed, and laid a reveal trap on that path. And then you could've even busted out the portable tossing trap to cover more area but that's a bit more tricky to use for squishy players like you. This leads to the endless arguement of burst build to tank ratio and the senseless stance that some specs ought to have monopoly for glass cannon build. Most players will enjoy being able to play a build that can instagib passers-by but glass cannon goes both ways. Now I'm an adamant DE rifle only main in wvw roamer. And I hated dying to burst gank builds out there. So I adapted to survive the most agressive gank build out there which was the 1MBS DE (1 malicious backstab deadeye). Not because holosmith, soulbeast sic'em lb or mirage couldn't burst as fast, but because DE can stalk you for any length needed to burst anywhere they felt like it. Thus went for full marauder and durability runes. It gives you the buffer to withstand the initial burst for your RFI/Witdthraw to take you away so you can counter or reset. Like MUDse mentioned, your HP shows you are still willing to be in that glass cannon playing field. So what I suggest is you work on your situational awareness and coordinate with your server mates. Basilisk venom them before going out, stealth approach to+1 when they open on a more sustainable ally or daggerstorm. It just made no sense to exit and run along path normally as 2v2 when you know they are 2 burst spec opening/focus firing on their own terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > > > After a backstab? > > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > > > So why do you think that is? > > > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > > > And what build? > > > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > > > > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that. > the first adds more because of the minor trait. so basically you get dmg for marking as such and damage specifically on that MalBS. > > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > > The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC. > it changed the value. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Signet/history > look at what it was before august 2017 > > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. > > > > I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it. > > that is indeed also a complaint, but a different one than we can see in the above video. > > also the 2nd one attacking the necro didnt even take half the necros life while building malice to m7, then the other finished it with several more shots that you can hear. > Hmmm you're right about the signet. I thought when they changed it from % based to straight power that was a nerf to the signets overall damage potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > > > > Assassin signet is not the problem,permastealth is. Stop trying to blame other mechanics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^this... > > > > > > > > > Blaming Assassins signet is like when people complained about torch for mirage. > > > > > > > > > It wont fix the real issue, and instead nerfs every other build but the one that is a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can all agree stealth on dodge might be a little over bearing given that fact you can MalBS for 20k+ on an opener. repeatedly. > > > > > > > > > So fix the stealth issue, and no other build needs to be caught in the crossfire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > aside from the fact that out there are daredevils doing the exact same because of that signet. > > > > > > > > sure you can do something about stealth on dodge, but if you want to gank like in that video people will still do it. if needed as daredevil that also will use endurance to stealth and in a group they might even do it as core. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh sure DD can do the same thing in one burst. DD couldn't immediately re-enter stealth and gank a second or third person. The gank of thief hasn't changed, and wasn't a huge problem until DE came out. > > > > > > > So lets address the issue that arouse from PoF > > > > > > > Not nerf everything around PoF and hope it fixes the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > what prevents that DD from entering stealth? that 3s reveal? > > > > > > > > > > After a backstab? > > > > > Yes- The fact that DD doesn't have Shadow Meld to re-enter stealth immediately after a gank. > > > > > So if you BS a person with DD you have a window where you can be targeted, CC'd, or further revealed. > > > > > DE doesn't truly have that window. > > > > > Interesting thing as well like I said. The complaints for DD backstab was not nearly as bad as DE. > > > > > So why do you think that is? > > > > > > > > > > Also last I played DD, you have to build full glass to achieve this damage, and you had little to no room for error. > > > > > Unlike DE , you didn't have the luxury of taking the SA line for perma stealth shinanigans AND high damage > > > > > Has that changed all of a sudden? > > > > > And what build? > > > > > And why aren't people running that instead? > > > > > > > > > > Edit: and please note I said Immediately after- > > > > > As in MalBS to Meld. > > > > > You don't have a 3second window or any window with DE before they re-enter stealth because they can take the revealed debuff and completely ignore it if they choose too. > > > > > > > > so its shadowmeld causing the difference? > > > > > > > That is a really good question, I think Shadow Meld is part of the problem. I would love to test a theory I have that MalBS may be adding more damage values than what it is supposed to, as in it's getting an extra 10% when it shouldn't, but I would have to test that. > > the first adds more because of the minor trait. so basically you get dmg for marking as such and damage specifically on that MalBS. > > > > assassins signet just got changed shortly before PoF, since then any thief can do such high bursts thats why there havent been more complains before as assassins signet was different. > > > The CD got changed yes, the value of what it buffs did not. So while the frequency of the damage increased. It did not changed the value IIRC. > > it changed the value. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Signet/history > > look at what it was before august 2017 > > > > but my point was just that such instant kills like in the video are not deadeye exclusive and you wont change anything about them if you only change DE stealth access. but ofc you can change deadeye stealth access, that wont change one bit about those complains tho. > > > > > > I think people are more upset that they lose the window to attack. Again, The complaints were their for thief. I wont disagree with that. DE however has magnified it. > > > > that is indeed also a complaint, but a different one than we can see in the above video. > > > > also the 2nd one attacking the necro didnt even take half the necros life while building malice to m7, then the other finished it with several more shots that you can hear. > > > > Hmmm you're right about the signet. I thought when they changed it from % based to straight power that was a nerf to the signets overall damage potential. Nurf damage on deadeye marking alone and leave ass signet alone,that would effect deadeye and not further nurf core/DD, easy fix lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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