Thoughts - Post Season 14 - From Different Class Perspectives

[bbop.9706]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

>

 

You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

 

And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

 

Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

[Fortus.6175]

Very well, I like what is going on in this thread so I will contribute my fair bit and **I will try my hardest to be as unbiased as possible**, I know this is a long read but I tried my best to keep it "simple" and objective. I'm an elementalist main, mostly play staff and D/D tempest. My thoughts on eles as a whole is that we lack the options to go for a specc that has more meat in their damage since we get blown up very quickly, even when running tanky or healy amulets, so we are pretty much relegated to running water/arcane or some variant of it, with a healing amulet (and toughness runes) so that we can survive the damage/CC/condi going around.

 

 

I have around 5,5k games in PvP, playing PvP since beta.

Ele is about 50% of my PvP time, with guardian 25%, and the rest divided between different classes to learn what they do: https://imgur.com/ZwaOzYi

Made it to legendary a couple of times, and I usually hover in mid P1, sometimes dip G3, somes times P2: https://imgur.com/u01zY24

Last season I finished rank 88 (a little lower due to decay but life happened during the last week of ranked; med school): https://imgur.com/YMl0cXZ

I have played and won with every class in ranked except engi (due to not being "lore friendly" in my head): https://imgur.com/hVLc2TY

This is me: https://imgur.com/fMTj741

 

I play mostly support auramancer Staff tempest, mender, I usually have **20-25% of team damage and 40-50% of team healing in almost every single match**. Also, while the build isnt a superb duelists, it can actually hold its own on small points since enemies are forced to eat my AoEs that take on the whole point, and that damage/CC does build overtime. Also, since damage reflected by magnetic aura (and scales based on the stats on the ally on who the aura is on, so high crit chance with high ferocity reflects normal shots as crits with damage multipliers), or burning applied by fire aura (which scales on condi damage on the ally on who the aura is on, so all the might I give them also increases this damage) count towards the damage meter of the ally on who I put the aura on, so my damage is probably significantly higher than what it currently is if we were to count all those damage/procs as mine. I actually believe auras right now are a little bit overtuned when they can be used as often as I can in my build, but then again, I die very quickly so not sure if that "balances" it.

 

 

**Spellbreaker**: Pretty much the bane of my existence in a side node. A GS burst takes me very low, their sustain + boon removal + high spike damage means I'm usually running for my life around the point like a headless chicken in hopes that I get support from my team. I use CC all I can, but once that Rampages goes online, its either abandon the point or die. I can handle them in teamfights somewhat since there I can (hopefully) get support from my teammates with CC, blinds and damage. Their GS damage seems a tad overtuned, other than that, I think they are in a good spot.

 

 

**Holo**: I still think their sustain is a bit too much; constant condi clears, water blasts and heat healing, means that if played correctly, they can hold a side notch for a long time. If I play my keys correctly we can sustain each other, however, one mess up and suddenly holo mode chunks me for 80% of my health, and then either rifle or elite comes out and I'm dead. My only concern is how much sustain they get without equipping any healing, I have to go mender or sage to make my healing mean something, yet they can get near full health in one rotation of defensive spells while running marauder.

 

 

**Soulbeasts**: Another bane of my existence, except that this one is for both teamfights and side node. Their unblockable attacks (for 4 seconds every 10 seconds) go through my magnetic aura, and they hit like a truck, specially if they use Wolf pack + unblockable horn 4 + smoke assault + LB2. It chunks me out, and I have a hard time making any damage or CC I do to them stick since they get so much damage and CC immunity (thanks to protect and healing though prot, also dolyak form and stunbreakers on equipping pet, etc). They can burst me quicker than I can sustain myself, unless I go full defense mode, and even then, once I blow most of my CDs, I usually have to start looking for LoS or abandon the point. I dont even bother fighting them on side nodes anymore, if I see one coming, I go mid and help there.

 

 

**Mirage**: Depends on who jumps who. If some of my CDs are still not coming back, I'm probably gonna get blown up, if I get +1, I will probably die. If I fight on my terms with all CDs available, I can rotate my spells and focus mostly on surviving. If on home defending, I stand still in the middle of the point, and start putting AoEs on top of myself, either they go off point and I can recapture, or they start eating CC/AoE damage which chips them away, eventually I just rotate between earth/water and watch my UI for confusion (for casting skills) and try to move/dodge cast skills as little as possible. Not a fun match up, but I have had mirages call me "bunkers BS" and "cheesy build, git gud kid" for them not being able to kill me. I still have a hard time playing vs them with other classes with less condi clear.

 

 

**Scourage**: In teamfights these can be devastating. I'm constantly watching for the AoE boon convertions as well as shades, but Im a boon spitter, my team mates get many of these boons, so fighting a scourage is all about who blows their CDs first, if I can outsustain their team, we win, if they burst/CC us down, they win. I think they are interesting to deal with in teamfights, and not terribly difficult to kill if the team focus them, I think thats fine, as an ele I understand that feeling of being a god when nobody pays attention to you and you get to free-cast, but feel like a noodle when all eyes are on you. **Reaper**; dangerous foes in melee, no matter how tanky you are, but they have clear weaknesses in teamfights. I would like to see more survivility outside of reaper form, and a tad less burst in reaper form, but other than that, they are *mostly* fine.

 

 

**Thief**: It feels like this class was designed with killing eles in mind. Their steal prioritizes stability removal, we only have 1 sources of stability on utilities, and thats armor of earth, steal not only takes that stability away, it then dazes you and interrupts your overload/heal/anything. Getting stability on overload doesnt help either. Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attack, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**, and they can +1 on you from pretty much anywhere thanks to their vertical mobility/general map wide mobility that often ignores LoS. **Deadeye** like many in this thread said, hard to punish, can hit like a truck and often requires lots of team coordination to force them to dodge away low in health (but still alive), just for them to pop back in a few seconds when the enemies have to focus someone else. Depending on team comp, they can be hard to deal with, or easy to deal with, no middle ground, that in my opinion makes them poorly tuned.

 

 

**Revenant**: A powerful foe to deal with when fighting someone else. Their burst is nothing to scoff at, although their sustain leaves something to be desired. If I can force them to use their heals I know I bought myself some time, but that shiro unblockable burst is seriously a threat. I rely on my teammates to apply condi pressure and CC on them in teamfights, and when one is on me I go on full defense mode, dodge weaving, ducking, whatever it takes to survive the sword burst, my main defense is healing their burst so that I can survive the next one and heal it back up again. Having one on my team though, I cover up all their weaknesses: i provide condi clear and flat healing, while putting up lots of CC ground for them to hammer on enemies, they are complementary to my build, but foes to respect if they get the jump on me or im low on health.

 

 

**Elementalists**: I mostly encournter weavers, it is a stalemate, not much else to say. In teamfights i make them useless since their condis are rapidly cleared by me, and their low direct damage is deleted by my raw healing. If I see one heading to my home node and I cant make it before they decap or fullycap, I leave it to someone else to deal with it and focus on mid or far node.

 

 

**Guardian**: High burst, if they get the jump on me and Im not at 100% hp, I'm probably dead. Their retaliation makes it difficult to want to hit them, since most of my hits are AoE and hit low damage over long periods of time, specially if they give that retaliation AoE. **Firebrand** in teamfights make fights very dragged out, usually boiling down to who has a scourage or who can focus-fire best. I play lots of guardian myself, DH and FB, and I know just how impactful they can be with their F1-F3 abilities, but other than the core burst damage which might need some shaving, I think they are fine. The nerfs to FB were needed but they are still strong and fun supports, so often whoever controls mid first will get lots of points before it can be flipped back in another teamfight.

 

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Overall I think we are pretty close to getting there in terms of balance. I would like to see some

 

 

-Shaving to sustain on holos, soulbeasts and **weavers**.

 

-Shave on damage on soulbeasts(big one required!), holo, mirages, and GS on spellbreakers, reaper form.

 

-Increased sustain for necros in general (**allow us to heal them through shroud**) and mirage (once they shave their condi application more than a bit), thieves (once their mobility and/or Sw utlity is shifted a bit)

 

-Less boon conversion/removal in general, specially from scourages, which would be fine after... (look at point below)

 

-**Make might, protection and rej harder to get and shorter lived in general!!!** Nobody wants the tank meta back, but make boons more impactful, rej shorter-lived but more healing scaling.

 

-Revisit thieves in general, steal shouldnt prioritize stability above all else, Sw/D is very oppressive vs support classes or low health classes in general (look at the last AT, they were demolishing all the FB, they are a far too strong of a +1 class/dueling class vs lots of speccs in ~~sergeant~~ general). #3 skill needs either the boon stealing reduced and energy increased and/or the unblockable has to go away since both guardian and ele have low hp and rely on boons and aegis to survive, that skill bypasses that and directly counters everything about their defense (aegis, protect, rej, with lowest hp in the game, eles lowest armor too), effectively doing true damage while buffing the thief with all those boons. Also revisit DE, either very oppressive or completely useless depending on team comp they are going agaisnt.

 

-Eles need more tools to play offensive and go away from healing speccs, most of us do not enjoy those self-healing troll builds that are only good for point stalling or driving people away with our situational sustain. I think shaving thieves goes a long way for this, but low health/armor with little access to stability/blocks and subpar scaling on their damage makes playing more offensive builds very situational and "gimmick" dependent. FA, while hitting strong, lacks team utility, mobility and sustain, and I would actually like to see less of its damage upfronted (not fun to deal with for anyone, reaction time wise), and more tools to survive dishing all that damage over a longer period of time.

 

 

I think the sweet spot for a fight is one where you can use your 15-20 seconds CD twice in a fight, and by half-way of the fight, both of you most be at 25%hp or lower. At that point the fight gets decided by who can stop a heal and/or dodge that second CD spell that just came back.

 

**tl:dr**: I like ice cream and pizzas

 

[Arcaedus.7290]

Thanks Trevor. I hope a dev reads this and passes on some of the insight here. It's clear you care about the game, know how to play it well and have thus provided some decent feedback that is about as unbiased as it can be. Based on your experiences, it's hard to point a definite finger at what is and isn't overpowered, but it's clear that mirage and boon beast are at the top of the totem pole in general and I hope they focus their evaluations on those two builds/specs.

 

I'd also like to point out some of the specializations/builds that are straight up absent from your assessment here, presumably due to so few players using them. Dragonhunter, Scrapper and core Warrior (the dodge spamming one with Might Makes Right) in particular are ones I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention. I know none of these are even close to meta, and this game is more Build Wars 2 than it is skill, but a very good one could definitely sit in plat 1-plat 2 as I did with DH 2 seasons ago.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"bbop.9706" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> >

>

> You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

>

> And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

>

> Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

 

This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

 

[Fortus.6175]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > >

> >

> > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> >

> > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> >

> > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

>

> This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

>

 

T_T, thats pro!

 

But in all seriousness, I dont think there are lots of classes that can deal with that level of ranged pressure, 3-5k regular attacks depending on amulet/class is no joking matter. I can see it struggling a bit in team fights but if you press T, have the unblockable from pet merging, sick'em( or even without it) and press LB2, no matter who you are, you are probably going down, and if you equip wolf pack instead, then hope you can respawn quickly cuz thats where you are probably headed.

 

I still think that ranged damage should not be so high, specially when rangers do have a few tools to disengage. Well, I guess if AT are any indication, soulbeasts will be around for quite a while more.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> * Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**

 

? O.o

 

Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

[bbop.9706]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > * Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**

>

> ? O.o

>

> Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

 

its a SB trait, unstoppable union

[bbop.9706]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > >

> >

> > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> >

> > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> >

> > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

>

> This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

>

 

Thanks man.

 

Its almost exactly like my sniper build but less survivability. I also only switched to it to counter Necro and Guardian comps, and never on maps with poor LOS like skyhammer or khylo.. absolute nightmare for LB on those maps imo.

 

[Derenaya.3479]

> @"bbop.9706" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > > * Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**

> >

> > ? O.o

> >

> > Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

>

> its a SB trait, unstoppable union

 

Fortus wrote about S/D Thief tho. S#3 doesn‘t interrupt.

[bbop.9706]

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > > > * Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**

> > >

> > > ? O.o

> > >

> > > Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

> >

> > its a SB trait, unstoppable union

>

> Fortus wrote about S/D Thief tho. S#3 doesn‘t interrupt.

 

ah sorry misread

[Fortus.6175]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > * Sw/D is tailormade agaisnt supports; ignores LoS, has **unblockable attacks that interrupt, deals high damage, dodges damage/CC, and steal boons all in one ability that has a fairly low energy cost and no CD for all it does**

>

> ? O.o

>

> Tell me about that one skill that's unblockable and Interrupts, I'd like to use it too

 

fixed it, thanks

[bbop.9706]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > >

> >

> > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> >

> > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> >

> > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

>

> This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

>

 

Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"bbop.9706" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > > >

> > >

> > > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> > >

> > > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> > >

> > > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

> >

> > This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

> >

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

> >

>

> Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

 

Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

[bbop.9706]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> > > >

> > > > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> > > >

> > > > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

> > >

> > > This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

> > >

> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

> > >

> >

> > Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

>

> Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

 

Actually, it only triggers off 1 of the merged abilities not all 3. Also, why would you want to be taunting a foe to attack you in melee range? You would take damage even if it was involuntary? Idk, just feels wrong to me with this build.. Forgive my ignorance, not sure i understand taunt in this game.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"bbop.9706" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > @"bbop.9706" said:

> > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You sir are my favourite poster on these forums. Always enlightening and a good read, thank you!

> > > > >

> > > > > And thanks to the other knowledgeable posters, you give me hope that the community is alive and kicking!

> > > > >

> > > > > Trev.. Which SB dps spec have you been running?

> > > >

> > > > This that's in the video, but with a few upgrades from what's shown in the video. I have to run Eagle now for better disengage on swoop, and then I use Scholar Rune over Pack. You can't really play it as a mainstream build in ranked, it's more of something to log into as a specific counter to Necro/Necro/Firebrandish type situations, or to counter dangerous DE's with Sic'Em reveal. Otherwise, Boonbeast or Bunker Druid side noders are just better all around nowadays.

> > > >

> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4Fm4g7Sfw

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sorry to harp on about the build, where's the value of Beastly Warden if you camp in beast mode most of the time? wouldn't Zephyrs speed be a better pick to help disengage?

> >

> > Not Trevor, but Beastly Warden triggers from the merged beast skills (Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, etc.) so it definitely has its uses for things like following up with burst.

>

> Actually, it only triggers off 1 of the merged abilities not all 3. Also, why would you want to be taunting a foe to attack you in melee range? You would take damage even if it was involuntary? Idk, just feels wrong to me with this build.. Forgive my ignorance, not sure i understand taunt in this game.

 

Well yes, just the archetype skills, so Worldly Impact, Spiritual Reprieve, Primal Cry, Unflinching Fortitude, Worldly Impact, and Prelude Lash...as long as you are within 240 units of them. Taunting technically forces them to attack you, but it is only autoattacking. If you are taunted with a melee weapon, you will run towards your target, and if you are taunted with a ranged weapon, you will stay in place as long as your weapon is in range of them. It helps set up burst. With a skill like WI, there's a good chance that you'll have your melee weapon equipped, so following up with your GS skills can be fatal for them.

Personally, I always run Zephyr's Speed, but I can see the appeal of Beastly Warden.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"bbop.9706" Answer two of your questions here:

 

1. Might stacks - Strength of the Pack with Moa Stance has that covered, along with an elongated stability stack.

2. About Beastly Warden - After hundreds of hours of test playing various high dps soulbeast builds, I can confirm that Beastly Warden is mandatory for high functioning builds. Firstly I want to say that on high dps soulbeast builds, you won't be pet swapping much if at all. On higher dps builds, leaving merge mode is a loss in dps and mobility, and there are no traits in these builds that grant you any perk for swapping pets or going into merge mode for boon amplification like on Boonbeasts. You want to avoid it completely unless you are against an opponent that requires extra CC to be able to kill. One good example is vs. Power Heralds, which is the hardest counter to dps soulbeasts. The only way to damage him enough quickly enough, to bait his heal vs. damage taken, and then damage him again quickly enough to kill him before he can kill you, is to exit merge and use a pet with dual CCs to stop him up. This is the only way to win vs. Power Herald, you cannot run from it and if you don't CC him down, he will deal a lot more damage to you than you can deal to him, due to sword 3 evading. These are the kinds of reasons why Beastly Warden is mandatory to take. Secondly, there are three main reasons why Beastly Warden is mandatory: The first is that when you go to land Maul to proc the damage enhancement, you then want to use that damage bonus while following up with Worldly Impact. The problem here is that better players after getting hit with Maul, will attempt to gtfo and away from your burst, via dodge rolling or movement skilling away, w/e it is they are doing to leave the AoE of nuclear damage. When you have Beastly Warden, the taunt works right as you active Worldy Impact, so if they don't have stability on, it makes them walk AT YOU instead of being able to react and leave. This helps secure the 2 shot combo. The second reason is that when you go in melee like this, it is a risk and you don't want to stay melee long, only long enough to land Maul > WI > Hilt Bah > Maul and leave, reset, and reposition while melee side is coming off CDs. Now let's say you're against a Warrior. If you don't have Beastly Warden, when you go to land Maul/WI 2-Shot, you have a large risk that the Warrior will use a burst skill like FC or Eviscerate, or he'll use GS 3 and completely avoid your damage while dealing a lot of damage to you. But if you do have Beastly Warden and make sure to go in for your burst when he doesn't have stability, when you go to land Maul/WI/Hilt Bash/Maul "with quickness on mind you", by the time he can react to the first Maul, he's already getting taunted. Now his character will attempt to 1 spam you while the Taunt is active, rather than allowing the player to use a Warrior burst skill or something like GS 3. By the time the Taunt ends, you'll be hitting him with Hilt Bash and leaning into the 2nd Maul. This is like 3s of CC and plenty of time to finish a 4 hit 40-60k combo with quickness on. Just try to bait that passive Endure Pain first as you come in with LB. The third reason is all about the other big boon that this build brings into matches, which is all about saving and winning team fights. So here is an example to explain this:You cap home at the start of the match and head to mid to see your team in a 4v4. You prime your burst with every utility used and down someone at mid. Now you can LB 3 stealth and use an Eagle swoop or a Rock Gazelle Dash to get into the middle of the team fight quickly while stealthed. Now that you are in the middle of the team fight, you can land that big AoE 4 hit combo 40-60k damage Maul>WI>Hilt Bash>Maul right on top of the body of the downed player, and to anyone who is standing there trying to revive him. Without Beastly Warden, You have no CCs to prevent people from bailing the nuke or for interrupting people who are reviving. But with Beastly Warden, it interrupts them during the revive if they have no stability, and makes them stand there like derps and eat the combo. In the end, what makes this build and builds like it very dangerous in melee range, is Beastly Warden. Without it, you won't be effective vs. better player beyond long range Rapid Fire sniping.

 

But yeah, that about sums up "Why Beastly Warden". I need to make a new video. That old video was made like the first day I discovered that build. That are a lot of mistakes made in the play there. Now when I run that build, you'd see all of the things demonstrated that I just explained in the above. You know what, maybe I'll do that tonight. I have a lot of people ask me about this build anyway.

 

 

[bbop.9706]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> But yeah, that about sums up "Why Beastly Warden". I need to make a new video. That old video was made like the first day I discovered that build. That are a lot of mistakes made in the play there. Now when I run that build, you'd see all of the things demonstrated that I just explained in the above. You know what, maybe I'll do that tonight. I have a lot of people ask me about this build anyway.

>

>

 

Amazing. Thanks Trev, and looking forward to the new video! ;-)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You know what, I just notice today that Taunt now comes on the strike with WI, instead of initially. It's still good though with quickness. The taunt still does its job and if you were to run a marks build like the Harsh Master, the taunt will still activate moment of clarity before the strike hits on WI. It's just slightly delayed now.

[Xcution.4768]

You clearly don't play druid at high elo cuz .....vs a tether breaker a druid is useless ....trust me i played druid for last 6 seasons.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

 

> Mes:

> As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

 

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

>

> > Mes:

> > As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

> It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

>

>

 

And impossible odds, and enchanted daggers, and shiro facet of nature. Pet classes are such a pain.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> **Point of this thread is to drop your subjective points of views on the current intra-class balance post S14, from the class or classes that you main.**

>

> I'm going to give my subjective points of view from the perspective of a Ranger main. During S14, I mained DPS Soulbeast and Bunker Druid interchangeably depending on which was more advantageous to play during the given match. I chose to play Bunker Druid over Boonbeast because although Boonbeast is a better 1v1 than a Bunker Druid in terms of slightly more DPS for kill power, the Bunker Druid is still a better 1v2 node stale, and better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal team mates. All in all, current Boonbeast and the better Bunker Druid setups are almost identical in the use of axe/axe and specializations selected, outside of the difference in their elites.

>

> Spellbreaker: Damage is maaaaaybe a bit too high after buffs to Forceful Greatsword, and I feel it is beginning to lack sustain. Not in a bad place but could be better.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - Either kill or get killed immediately.

> * As Bunker Druid - Stalemate in most cases. Though the new sword/shield Spellbreaker variants or just very high DPS variants in general, can be capable of killing a Bunker Druid if CCs are landed at the correct time. Likewise, they are squishy enough that the Bunker Druid can kill them if the stars do not align and they are unable to land CCs at the right time.

>

> Herald: It's in a good place from what I've seen, but it requires just the right team comp to play be able to play correctly.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - Heralds counter DPS Soulbeasts so long as the Soulebeast doesn't sucker punch them before they are ready to engage.

> * As Bunker Druid - Axe 5 retaliation alone counters Heralds. Then the Druid has too much sustain for the Herald to kill and the Herald's heal skill is useless when the Druid wins with attrition damage instead of burst damage. Druids counter Heralds.

>

> Core Guard: Clearly the dominant Core Class, viable amongst meta, not actually meta.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - Pretty equal match up actually.

> * As Bunker Druid - Bunker Druid counters Core Guard in the same way Boonbeast counters Core Guard. Mainly due to Axe 5 retal, and high defensive values that the Core Guard ultimately cannot keep up with.

>

> Firebrand: Eeeeeeeh I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Seems like only the GOOD FBs kept playing after tome CD increase. Not so easy to spam FB anymore.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - DPS Soulbeast counters FB hard. This is a primary reason to log out/back in as a DPS Soulbeast for certain matches.

> * As Bunker Druid - Saying "It's balanced" doesn't even begin to adequately describe the tears that happen when a FB and a Bunker Druid meet on a neutral node 1v1 and get locked into a combat that goes no where while both players are waiting for a + to show up.

>

> Boonbeast: It's a better 1v1 than a Druid as it can deal damage to actually kill an opponent or run it off a node in the long run, but it is still not as good of a 1v2er as a Druid because it lacks the extreme defensive measures that Druid provides, and a Druid is still better in 2v2s or team fights because it can heal its team mates. Not sure if I'd say Boonbeast is still OP or not, hard to tell from the perspective of a Bunker Druid.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - The Boonbeast counters DPS Soulbeast for many reasons.

> * As Bunker Druid - Stalemate, if both players are good, neither player can kill the other without a bit of luck or a +, but it isn't as boring of a fight as against the FB. Both players actually have to pay attention or they could die if they get lazy & sloppy.

>

> Holosmith: Lots of variant builds going around lately. I don't think it's necessarily OP, but some of it's attacks still need to be addressed in terms of how much random ultra range they have. <- That's for certain.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - They're an easy kill after the change of SRD into EE, if you can get the jump and lead in damage on them. Not so easy of a kill if they are ready to engage that first burst. I'd say it's a solid balanced match up if the DPS Soulbeast can play well.

> * As Bunker Druid - 9/10 Holos are easily countered by Bunker Druid, again for those Axe 5 retal reasons. If the Holo is good and avoids retail, he will eventually run the Bunker Druid off a node in the long run, and possibly have a chance of killing it if the Bunker Druid messes up his kiting.

>

> All Forms Of Thieves: Maybe I have bias because I run Ranger specs which are known for countering Thieves, but I feel Thieves are underperforming at this point as compared to previous seasons & metas, specifically in the sustain department. In this power crept high DPS meta, they get hit hard by EVERYTHING, including random 1 autos from something like a Bunker Druid. I would like to point out that players should give good Thief players props, because in this current DPS meta, they are playing GW2 on hard mode.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - It just counters and destroys Thief specs unless the Thief gets an enormously powerful lead in attack.

> * As Bunker Druid - Absolutely no chance of a Thief spec killing this 1v1 unless the Druid lags or his mouse starts bugging out, or the Druid is drunk or way too tired to be playing. The only exception to this is a top notch Deadeye. Sometimes a good DE can get you if they stealth in and play sneaky, stay patient, and catch you off guard.

>

> All forms of Necromancers: I feel like Reaper is in a great place, but Scourge is a bit lack luster at this point. Scourge had many of it's boon corrupts removed to nerf it in the past, but since then so many buffs have happened to increase the frequency of boon application on other classes and their durations, that Scourge may need some of its boon corrupts reimplemented to maintain its class function and purpose.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - The most severe counter possible vs Necromancers.

> * As Bunker Druid - Lately I can 1v1 Reapers or Scourges on nodes, due to the virtue of weakness spam, and deal enough damage over time to actually kill them. I don't think I would say Bunker Druid is a hard counter so to say, but they win the end.

>

> Mirages & Chronos: I'll let the persistent Mesmer complaint threads handle most of this, but I will say that although Mirages & Chronos may not necessarily be OP, they are the most obnoxious and not fun class to play against. Every other class feels fun to engage, with straight forward intuitive dynamics. Even Deadeyes "which are commonly complained about due to their high stealth uptime", are at least straight forward to deal with when they reveal granting an opening, or stealth and you have to LOS attempting to lure them into a bad situation. Engaging Mesmer based classes on the other hand as of 2019, it feels like you're standing in a big confetti storm, can't see anything, and there are 10 people who look the same, running around you in circles while firing taser guns at your face. This ultra silly gimmicky play gets old and just feels cheap after awhile. Maybe Arenanet should consider lowering the total amount of clone spam frequency, but slightly increasing the power of those clones to compensate. This would lower the pixel spam and in general reduce the amount of unintended advantages that clone spam grants.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - You can kill power based Mesmer builds, but just run from condi based.

> * As Bunker Druid - You can 1v1 most Mesmer based builds and eventually kill them, but the better players while on Condi based specs, can eventually decap you or possibly kill you, if you mess up at all. Druid is on the other hand very strong vs power Mesmer based builds.

>

> Weavers: They are in a much better place now and at least viable, still not a meta.

> * As DPS Soulbeast - You explode all ele builds due to lowest health pool.

> * As Bunker Druid - You can kill DPS based Eles pretty quickly, but good Eles that are sustainy turns into a 1v1 stalemate.

>

>

> A few other suggestions/concerns/comments:

>

> 1. Match manipulation & 3rd party program use seemed lower this season. At least I wasn't effected by it as much. Felt like less shenanigans.

> 2. There are way too many people using alts to block top 25 leaderboard positions. I am sure they probably own these accounts and that technically there probably isn't anything going on that breaks the TOS, but is there really nothing that can be done about this?

> 3. Boosters - Would it be possible to implement special boosters that effect spvp directly and nothing else? Maybe boosters that say "+25% gain to reward track progress and maybe even pip progression", and they would work for a certain amount of matches instead of a timer count down. The timer count down for spvp is just a bad design considering wait times between ranked and ATs, also when a player wants to leave the mists to do something else. The normal booster timers just get wasted in spvp and are better used in pve farming for wvw, where gains made are actually worth the use of the booster.

> 4. Please re-add the 2v2 ATs, that was a lot of fun. Just fix the arenas so the gates close after the match starts, and it spits each team into the actual arena, so they can't camp the spawn.

> 5. Remove some of the obstructive visual clutter around the side nodes in the Djinn map. That map's objective also needs a lot of buffing.

> 6. You guys gotta seriously considering omitting f2p accounts from playing in ranked mode at all. There are several reasons for this that I don't have the time to go into.

> 7. Oh and, pvp guild missions need some kind of a serious overhaul. I'd love to see there be a reason to run teams through a guild again. That'd be great.

>

> ~ Welp, that's about it. Ty for your time.

>

 

Not a high lvl player but this is spot on. Down to the DE vs ranger part.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> Nice idea, let me contribute a bit.

>

> Talking mainly from a weaver's perspective here. I rarely switched to troll classes, most of my serious games were on a condi weaver variant using sage's amulet and different runes. It is still designed as a side node bunker, but with more damage and less sustain.

>

> **Warrior:**

> I still feel like the nerfs addressed the wrong issues. I found the damage of demo spellbreaker to be okayish - the sustain for such an amulet was too much. They should have made the passive heals scale a lot more with healing power, so warriors could either go for serious damage/+1 role with demo or bunker with mender or paladin.

> It is usually a longer fight. Depending on skill, CDs available or luck, warrior either kills me with rampage (lol) or I drive him off point, but it is a long and boring fight. I wish they would allow them those two roles dcescribed above though.

>

> **Herald:**

> Dangerous +1 build, since weaver still is vulnerable to power bursts. It is very dangerous and usually not killable as long as he doesn't overextend and stays in range for condis to kill him. Also impossible to run away when he +1s. Healthy spot from weaver's perspective.

>

> **Guard:**

> Firebrand is absolutely unkillable and negates my influence in team fights significantly. Weaver has almost no cover conditions, so he effectively shuts down a lot of my damage. Unkillable in duels, even the few duelist variants running around.

> Core guard is kinda the same like rev/herald. Dangerous +1 role, which is healthy. They last a lot longer in duels, but assuming same skill level, I drive them away eventually. They have so many cleanses...

> But all in all, okayish.

>

> **Ranger:**

> Boonbeast is the bane of my build. I can not kill them, I can only try to survive and stalemate. They can save their CDs for a +1, I have to use lots of them to survive. Awful. It does everything I do but _a lot_ better.

> Drooids are just stalemates, power soulbeasts powerful +1s. I haven't seen many of either of them though.

>

> **Holosmith:**

> I feel like they are in a good spot. Might be different for other classes. They usually can't outsustain me on points, because they lack cleanses, but they have a lot bigger effect on many other fights - being able to +1, team fight and roam. Deleting the auto elixir S was great - now they have one less out of jail card against +1s.

> Sidenote: On my zerker chrono troll build, holo used to be really tough, because they could survive and resustain several times. Without the elixir, I could finally +1 them properly, which is great.

>

> **Thief:**

> Daredevil is awful to play against, assuming equal skill level (and CDs, situation etc.), they always drive me off point when they +1, immediately. No way to punish them, because of range, stealth and lack of proper AoEs.

> Other thieves actually kinda lack sustain indeed. D/P or core thieves usually can't down me in a +1 immediately, and at the same time they can hardly contribute to DPS me down before they have to start to disengage because of conditions. That might be because they expect mender weavers and are surprised, but those are +1s I often survive and resustain before they cap a point.

> Deadeye should be changed, the damage is good, but they should become punishable. I think the nerfs were (once again) not goind in the right direction, they should not have changed the power but the disengage capabilities. Other builds should have be looked at sustained damage for +1s, not necessarily burst.

>

> **Necromancer:**

> Scourge is usually extremely tough to kill, especially in team fights. The cleanses are enough for a weaver, the barriers and stuff... in duel scenarios I wear them down eventually, but it usually takes too long to be of good use. Hoeever, they are team fighters and as such I feel in a good spot.

> Reaper has the same role like rev or core guard for me. +1 power damage, very dangerous, usually drives me off point immediately. It is countered though by several other builds, so I think it is okay.

>

> **Mesmer:**

> Condi mirage is still awful. Due to my higher damage but less sustain, it often does not end up in a stalemate, but in a long and boring fight, where I don't have opportunities to counter attack. I decap, then the point stays neutral.

> Power variants are the usual dangerous power +1 role. But more easily punishable than DE, while the bursts are more dangerous.

>

> **Elementalist:**

> Tempests basically don't exist, bunker weavers re stalemates, FA weavers - those few still playing - are tough, but they lack the sustained burst of the other power +1s when counter pressured. I still would like to the the damage nerfs revoked and other changes like FA having an internal CD of 1s tried. Well...

>

> **Conclusion:**

> Due to nerfs to other classes (except boonbeast lol), weaver indeed is in a better spot. I usually win most of my duels except soulbeast and most mirages. I also feel like condi weaver is how condi builds should be - slowly applying the damage, wearing the opponent down. However, it is still extremely vulnerable when caught off guard, with no escape CDs left (which have a long CD, RtL 15/30s, LF 40s or ToF 50s).

>

> **My wishes are:**

> Reduce condi application by condi mirage and scourge, at the same time reduce cleanses from firebrand - and also from weaver. This way, conditions are not as extremely punishing for builds not having massed cleanses (or block, invulns, etc.), but also condi build variety would increase. Not talking about condi thief, but ranger, engi, even burn guards...

>

> Also, nerf boonbeast spam. Adjust/slightly buff warriors, thief. With this, I think there would be few changes necessary for weaver (except those small range increases I have been asking for a year now...).

>

> As I said, everything from my weaver's perspective.

 

You should play deadeye to understand that the stealth disengage is necessary. I tired to play with out slient scope. Nopenope nope. u r basically instantly dead 9/10 since u die in 2 hits It's lacks the evades, blocks, invis or boon protection every one else has that are often built into their weapon set. Guardian focus 5, mesmer sword 2 ranger gs block etc etc

 

Basically if they can target u and u burn your 2 dodges u r dead. Sure you can switch ur set to s/d or d/p but you don't have the DD traits or the acrobatics to keep you alive.

 

I am in favor of removing slient scope if they gave it some other form of sustain. Such as removing cast time on skill 4 to teleport and removing 1 int from it. This means that a DE can't attack if it decides to leave . Either that or keep it as it is and allow it to decide where to teleport and add cost.

 

Change shadow meld into 3 casts and increae cool down. So there is some way of disengage but the DE has to know when to use it and if he spams it he's dead.

 

And or when dodging a DE is detargeted but not stealthed.

 

These are just ideas that came up. May not be great... But still something needs to be done if scope is removed. Because simply DE just doesn't work with out it.

 

 

[Miles Smiles.8951]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> >

> > > Mes:

> > > As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

> > It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

> >

> >

>

> And impossible odds, and enchanted daggers, and shiro facet of nature. Pet classes are such a pain.

 

Yeah but I mean like legit splits the first and the second hitting parts; and people keep saying "aoe 8k hit" when it only does high dmg on single targets akin to sword 2 and sword 3

[Ario.8964]

> @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

>

> > Mes:

> > As rev: this is the most tilting fight in game. You can dodge their burst, but then you have to dodge all the incoming cc, follow up condi, and find a way to kill them when 2 of your 5 sword skills split their damage due to clone presence. All the while, you can't run away due to their superior mobility, and you can't stalemate due to rev's lack of condi clear.

> It's all gucci and I'm not complaining but why no one seems to realize that sword 4 splits its damage as well?

>

>

 

I honestly never knew about that. Awesome info to have, I'll go edit my post cause damage splits are what makes pet classes so awful to fight.