the AP curve on longer achievements

[Ayakaru.6583]

So, we have essentially 3 types of achievements

1. Single Action

2. Repeating/Cycling

3. Single Numerative (ticking)

 

To give a short description:

**Single Action**: *An achievement with a fixed condition and a fixed AP.* (e.g., kill this boss for 5AP).

**Cycling**: *An achievement with a fixed condition, and a fixed AP per cycle.* (e.g., dailies, you do 3 dailies, and get 10 AP each time for the set.)

**Ticking**: *Achievements that require an action to be repeated for, lets say, a 1000 times, and at certain integers, you get AP.* (E.g., 5AP for 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500 kills).

Now, in the first two cases, the AP is a constant.

Do you do the same action, and get the same amount of AP every time. (well, once, or repeateadly).

But in the latter, the AP is going down in most cases.

 

Take for example, Ruthless Survivor (Delta is the difference to the previous tier)

Tier - AP - Ticks Delta - AP per Tick

1 - 1 - 3 - **0.333**

2 - 1 - 7 - **0.143**

3 - 5 - 15 - **0.333**

4 - 5 - 25 - **0.200**

5 - 5 - 50 - **0.100**

6 - 5 - 150 - **0.033**

7 - 5 - 250 - **0.020**

8 - 5 - 500 - **0.010**

 

So, a veteran will only get 0.01 AP per kill, but a new player will get 0.14 AP per kill, thus reducing incentive¹ for veterans to keep playing said content.

At the end of the road, you have 32 AP for 1000 kills. In my opinion, the curve should just be linear, 0.032 AP per kill, capping at 32AP on the 1000th kill, or have an increasing curve, to incentivize completing achievements rather than slugging through them.

 

So, to get back to the point i'm trying to make; it's actuallt not lucrative to complete achievements.

In fact, you'll be punished for completing an achievement before starting the next.

you get the most AP per tick, and depending on how long each tick takes, the most AP per hour, if you complete achievements 1 tier at a time, going through all achievements.

 

So, I'm wondering, why is the AP per tick going down?

if you invest effort in something, shouldn't the AP per ticks be going up?

Shouldn't the 50th kill be worth more than the 1st kill? or at least as much as the 1st.

 

--

 

[¹] Incentive being if you care about AP, or rather, if the presence or absence of AP is a factor in choosing what content you want to play

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> So, to get back to the point i'm trying to make; it's actuallt not lucrative to complete achievements.

Achievements aren't meant to be lucrative, nor are they meant to give an even "reward per unit of effort". They are simply a very rough recognition of people playing all kinds of stuff in this game for a long (sometimes very long) time.

 

Seeing how ANet has spread ap over the life of the game, I seriously doubt they meant to incentivise anyone to play specific content. It looks to me like ap are simply a recognition of people playing stuff, not incentive to get people to play said stuff.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > So, to get back to the point i'm trying to make; it's actuallt not lucrative to complete achievements.

> Achievements aren't meant to be lucrative, nor are they meant to give an even "reward per unit of effort". They are simply a very rough recognition of people playing all kinds of stuff in this game for a long (sometimes very long) time.

>

> Seeing how ANet has spread ap over the life of the game, I seriously doubt they meant to incentivise anyone to play specific content. It looks to me like ap are simply a recognition of people playing stuff, not incentive to get people to play said stuff.

 

that would be true, if there weren't pieces of content gated behind AP.

Take for example, Hellfire Armor.

If you want it, there's no content you can play to unlock, you have to grind away at everything, in the most efficient manner possible, to unlock it in less than 6 years of playing.

If it were just a number to show how active one player is, yes, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But given the rewards gated by AP, AP itself is an incentive to play certain contents over other

[Malediktus.9250]

The worst offenders for this are the 10k win achievements in PvP, followed by the 250k kill achievement in WvW

 

Having to do another 5k wins at the last tier for 10 AP and a super boring title (Champion Brawler) seems silly

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> that would be true, if there weren't pieces of content gated behind AP.

> Take for example, Hellfire Armor.

That's a skin, not "content." It's meant as a reward for players who have invested tons of time into the game.

 

> If you want it, there's no content you can play to unlock, you have to grind away at everything, in the most efficient manner possible, to unlock it in less than 6 years of playing.

Yes, that's the intent of the reward: for people who have made that investment

(incidentally, you don't have to be as efficient as possible or grind away at everything; that just shortens the amount of time invested)

 

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Perhaps, the intention for those long-term achievements was 10-15 years, rather than closer to 6-7.

Even before launch, there was a 5-year plan (long before AP rewards); recent comments by the Devs indicate very long-term plans for story.

Thus, it would not be surprising.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> That's a skin, not "content." It's meant as a reward for players who have invested tons of time into the game.

 

Fair, poor wording on my end. Content is not the right word, but hellfire is a personal gripe for me (since it's the only armor you can use to remotely look like a destroyer).

But the rewards are sufficiently unique to other content in the game, that just farming AP is a 'game mode' in itself, for players to persue.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Yes, that's the intent of the reward: for people who have made that investment

> (incidentally, you don't have to be as efficient as possible or grind away at everything; that just shortens the amount of time invested)

 

Don't get me wrong, I get that the rewards are meant for long-time play. I'm not trying to argue that the rewards shouldn't be gated behind AP. Every type of content needs its own reward. I'm arguing the content "ap" itself here.

 

The reason I'm bringing this up here, now, is simply because I've considered myself an active player since beta days, and am currently 'stuck' at ~28k AP.

At this point in time, most of the AP i earn comes from living season episodes, which give shamefully little AP, and the dailies (10 ap a day).

Most one-time achievement's I've already done, and the remainder are all slow-grinding achievements that take weeks and weeks on a single piece of content, and slowly reward less and less AP with every day passing. That's the issue i'm trying to convey here. The grindier the achievement, the less you're rewarded for your time.

 

I also partially blame Season 1, which pumped so much AP into the game that I feel like the devs fear putting in more AP into the game. I didn't miss much of the story of season 1, mostly just the pirate chapter, but as I was running internships, I didn't have time to do more than just the story content. Hence I got 10-15% of the LS1 AP *at best*. And that will always be a sore thorn in my eye.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> So, I'm wondering, why is the AP per tick going down?

> if you invest effort in something, shouldn't the AP per ticks be going up?

> Shouldn't the 50th kill be worth more than the 1st kill? or at least as much as the 1st.

>

> --

>

> [¹] Incentive being if you care about AP, or rather, if the presence or absence of AP is a factor in choosing what content you want to play

 

Because doing something for the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time is less of an achievement.

 

Your question is the same as asking why do people celebrate their 5th 25th 40th or even 50th anniversary more than those in between.

 

Its not a job, where you get paid equally, its an achievement in a game.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > So, I'm wondering, why is the AP per tick going down?

> > if you invest effort in something, shouldn't the AP per ticks be going up?

> > Shouldn't the 50th kill be worth more than the 1st kill? or at least as much as the 1st.

> >

> > --

> >

> > [¹] Incentive being if you care about AP, or rather, if the presence or absence of AP is a factor in choosing what content you want to play

>

> Because doing something for the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time is less of an achievement.

>

> Your question is the same as asking why do people celebrate their 5th 25th 40th or even 50th anniversary more than those in between.

>

> Its not a job, where you get paid equally, its an achievement in a game.

 

I would say killing 1 player is not an achievement since it can happen by mistake / luck / however you want to call it. But killing 1000+ shows you have some understanding of the minigame.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> hellfire is a personal gripe for me (since it's the only armor you can use to remotely look like a destroyer).

> But the rewards are sufficiently unique to other content in the game, that just farming AP is a 'game mode' in itself, for players to persue.

So you would prefer that AP rewards are ... not unique? That they are things you can obtain doing something else? You see how that might be a cure worse than the disease you feel you're suffering?

 

>

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Don't get me wrong, I get that the rewards are meant for long-time play. I'm not trying to argue that the rewards shouldn't be gated behind AP. Every type of content needs its own reward. I'm arguing the content "ap" itself here.

Then stick to that conversation. As soon as you mention _any_ of the specific rewards, then the conversation becomes about the skins, not the method they are obtained.

(We can, of course, have two threads about it — or three; see below. The skins aren't directly relevant to whether the system needs adjusting.)

 

> That's the issue i'm trying to convey here. The grindier the achievement, the less you're rewarded for your time.

Yes, that's exactly the idea. This gives more AP to those who are "dedicated" (in a particular sense of the word) and out-of-reach for those who aren't. Lots of people are going to end up killing 100 krait; not everyone is going to end up killing 1000.

 

> I also partially blame Season 1, which pumped so much AP into the game that I feel like the devs fear putting in more AP into the game. I didn't miss much of the story of season 1, mostly just the pirate chapter, but as I was running internships, I didn't have time to do more than just the story content. Hence I got 10-15% of the LS1 AP *at best*. And that will always be a sore thorn in my eye.

If you got 10% of LS1's AP, then there are other things available to you to hit 30k AP. There's about 4500 or so AP no longer obtainable, about 3900 of which can be attributed directly to LS1, so sure, that's plenty of AP left on the table for you. However, there's easily more than 30k AP available through other means. There's quite a lot available via PvP (a good chunk of which doesn't even require serious PvP, although most does).

 

I don't mean to suggest that the LS1 AP isn't a sore point. It's just not the only source of missing AP for those trying to hit 30k.

(Plus it's not really the topic of the thread as you've described it; it's a different issue that isn't easily addressed for a variety of reasons.)

 

[Celsith.2753]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > So, I'm wondering, why is the AP per tick going down?

> > if you invest effort in something, shouldn't the AP per ticks be going up?

> > Shouldn't the 50th kill be worth more than the 1st kill? or at least as much as the 1st.

> >

> > --

> >

> > [¹] Incentive being if you care about AP, or rather, if the presence or absence of AP is a factor in choosing what content you want to play

>

> Because doing something for the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time is less of an achievement.

>

> Your question is the same as asking why do people celebrate their 5th 25th 40th or even 50th anniversary more than those in between.

>

> Its not a job, where you get paid equally, its an achievement in a game.

 

I'd say sticking with grinding something for the 1000th time was more achievement than doing it a couple times personally. It's not like the grindy achieves are something you get more skillful at and output less effort to do as you go on.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > So, I'm wondering, why is the AP per tick going down?

> > > if you invest effort in something, shouldn't the AP per ticks be going up?

> > > Shouldn't the 50th kill be worth more than the 1st kill? or at least as much as the 1st.

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > > [¹] Incentive being if you care about AP, or rather, if the presence or absence of AP is a factor in choosing what content you want to play

> >

> > Because doing something for the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time is less of an achievement.

> >

> > Your question is the same as asking why do people celebrate their 5th 25th 40th or even 50th anniversary more than those in between.

> >

> > Its not a job, where you get paid equally, its an achievement in a game.

>

> I'd say sticking with grinding something for the 1000th time was more achievement than doing it a couple times personally. It's not like the grindy achieves are something you get more skillful at and output less effort to do as you go on.

 

Yeah, that's what i meant with less of an achievement. I didn't mean to state it takes less effort.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

Honestly, once you hit the daily cap, progress becomes _agonizingly_ slow because you've already knocked out all the reasonable normal achievements along the way and AP rewards associated with new content are laughable (look how many give you 5 AP or less, hell look at how many of the collections don't even give you _that_).