Fortus.6175 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 >3.4% eles overall yup, seems about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashrlyyk.5364 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > Yes, it should effect balance choice! In competitive modes people play classes that are effective at achieving the goals of the PvP match. So any massive underrepresentation of any class like we see with ele (48 out of 1399) and revenant (68 out of 1399) is proof that they are not effective and don't contribute enough to the PvP match. It is a massive red flag!!! > @"RedShark.9548" said: >No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > Wrong. > @"RedShark.9548" said: >Would you change the design of ele because of that? > Yes, I would. I would like every class to be played roughly by the same percentage of the player base, if possible. I particularly would like to have people that WANT to play an elementalist to be able to do that and not scare them of with bullshit unnecessary complexity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > > > Yes, it should effect balance choice! In competitive modes people play classes that are effective at achieving the goals of the PvP match. So any massive underrepresentation of any class like we see with ele (48 out of 1399) and revenant (68 out of 1399) is proof that they are not effective and don't contribute enough to the PvP match. > It is a massive red flag!!! > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > >No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > > > Wrong. > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > >Would you change the design of ele because of that? > > > Yes, I would. I would like every class to be played roughly by the same percentage of the player base, if possible. I particularly would like to have people that WANT to play an elementalist to be able to do that and not scare them of with kitten unnecessary complexity! Your "unnecessary complexity" is called a higher skill ceiling, which means that a class is hard to master, but IF mastered it outshines easier to play classes... Which is reasonable and desired by many competetive players. They want to learn and perfect their class, to have an edge over easier and straight forward classes. complex classes tend to be harder to play but also reward you when you fully understand their mechanics. Why do you want every class to be the exact same thing? Its boring and not pleasing to everyone. If you dont want to put time and effort into learning a more complex class you can just stick to easier classes, its simple. I, for example, would love for warrior to get alot more depth to it to. Meaning that a warrior main that has alot of experience with it can easily outplay mediocre warriors that just play the flavor of the month class. Higher skill ceiling also means that you often can adept to different situations by playing different or using different combos (which ele has alot of). Warrior or holo always uses the same combo and thus are very predictable in what they are going to do - >easier to outplay Balancing around playtime is just wrong. Buffing a class that is not liked because its harder will maybe increase the playtime overall, but also shift the balance heavily in favor of said class. If a class that is hard to master gets buffed to a point where every mediocre player can play it on the same level as the easy to play classes, what do you think will happen to those that actually mastered the class? Those ppl will profit aswell from those buffs, resulting in them just roflestomping everyone else. Ofc such low playtimes are a red flag, which should make the ppl in charge take a closer look, but if the win/lose rate of those ppl that play it is in line with others (or often higher than those of other classes, because those few ppl that play it mastered it, and thus have an edge over simpler classes, because of higher skill ceiling etc.) than its fine. Now again im not saying that ele in pvp doesnt need buffs, i dont have the data for that, but its not the point anyways right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganathar.4956 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > > > > > Yes, it should effect balance choice! In competitive modes people play classes that are effective at achieving the goals of the PvP match. So any massive underrepresentation of any class like we see with ele (48 out of 1399) and revenant (68 out of 1399) is proof that they are not effective and don't contribute enough to the PvP match. > > It is a massive red flag!!! > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > >No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > > > > > Wrong. > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > >Would you change the design of ele because of that? > > > > > Yes, I would. I would like every class to be played roughly by the same percentage of the player base, if possible. I particularly would like to have people that WANT to play an elementalist to be able to do that and not scare them of with kitten unnecessary complexity! > > Your "unnecessary complexity" is called a higher skill ceiling, which means that a class is hard to master, but IF mastered it outshines easier to play classes... Which is reasonable and desired by many competetive players. > They want to learn and perfect their class, to have an edge over easier and straight forward classes. > complex classes tend to be harder to play but also reward you when you fully understand their mechanics. > > Why do you want every class to be the exact same thing? Its boring and not pleasing to everyone. If you dont want to put time and effort into learning a more complex class you can just stick to easier classes, its simple. > > I, for example, would love for warrior to get alot more depth to it to. Meaning that a warrior main that has alot of experience with it can easily outplay mediocre warriors that just play the flavor of the month class. > > Higher skill ceiling also means that you often can adept to different situations by playing different or using different combos (which ele has alot of). Warrior or holo always uses the same combo and thus are very predictable in what they are going to do - >easier to outplay > > Balancing around playtime is just wrong. Buffing a class that is not liked because its harder will maybe increase the playtime overall, but also shift the balance heavily in favor of said class. > If a class that is hard to master gets buffed to a point where every mediocre player can play it on the same level as the easy to play classes, what do you think will happen to those that actually mastered the class? Those ppl will profit aswell from those buffs, resulting in them just roflestomping everyone else. > > Ofc such low playtimes are a red flag, which should make the ppl in charge take a closer look, but if the win/lose rate of those ppl that play it is in line with others (or often higher than those of other classes, because those few ppl that play it mastered it, and thus have an edge over simpler classes, because of higher skill ceiling etc.) than its fine. > > Now again im not saying that ele in pvp doesnt need buffs, i dont have the data for that, but its not the point anyways right now. Just because weaver is the latest elementalist elite spec, that doesn't mean that the entire profession was designed to be as complex as weaver. Weaver is the latest elite spec of ele and nothing more. What about tempest? Is that played so little because it's insanely difficult to play? This is why we have elite specs. So that professions get access to a variety of play styles. I am sure that Anet will do a 180 and the next ele spec will be more simplified. I just don't know if they will overdo it and reach holosmith levels of simplification. I won't comment on how weaver itself performs, despite the skill requirements. It's clearly visible for everyone to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > > > > > > > Yes, it should effect balance choice! In competitive modes people play classes that are effective at achieving the goals of the PvP match. So any massive underrepresentation of any class like we see with ele (48 out of 1399) and revenant (68 out of 1399) is proof that they are not effective and don't contribute enough to the PvP match. > > > It is a massive red flag!!! > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > >No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > > > > > > > Wrong. > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > >Would you change the design of ele because of that? > > > > > > > Yes, I would. I would like every class to be played roughly by the same percentage of the player base, if possible. I particularly would like to have people that WANT to play an elementalist to be able to do that and not scare them of with kitten unnecessary complexity! > > > > Your "unnecessary complexity" is called a higher skill ceiling, which means that a class is hard to master, but IF mastered it outshines easier to play classes... Which is reasonable and desired by many competetive players. > > They want to learn and perfect their class, to have an edge over easier and straight forward classes. > > complex classes tend to be harder to play but also reward you when you fully understand their mechanics. > > > > Why do you want every class to be the exact same thing? Its boring and not pleasing to everyone. If you dont want to put time and effort into learning a more complex class you can just stick to easier classes, its simple. > > > > I, for example, would love for warrior to get alot more depth to it to. Meaning that a warrior main that has alot of experience with it can easily outplay mediocre warriors that just play the flavor of the month class. > > > > Higher skill ceiling also means that you often can adept to different situations by playing different or using different combos (which ele has alot of). Warrior or holo always uses the same combo and thus are very predictable in what they are going to do - >easier to outplay > > > > Balancing around playtime is just wrong. Buffing a class that is not liked because its harder will maybe increase the playtime overall, but also shift the balance heavily in favor of said class. > > If a class that is hard to master gets buffed to a point where every mediocre player can play it on the same level as the easy to play classes, what do you think will happen to those that actually mastered the class? Those ppl will profit aswell from those buffs, resulting in them just roflestomping everyone else. > > > > Ofc such low playtimes are a red flag, which should make the ppl in charge take a closer look, but if the win/lose rate of those ppl that play it is in line with others (or often higher than those of other classes, because those few ppl that play it mastered it, and thus have an edge over simpler classes, because of higher skill ceiling etc.) than its fine. > > > > Now again im not saying that ele in pvp doesnt need buffs, i dont have the data for that, but its not the point anyways right now. > > Just because weaver is the latest elementalist elite spec, that doesn't mean that the entire profession was designed to be as complex as weaver. Weaver is the latest elite spec of ele and nothing more. What about tempest? Is that played so little because it's insanely difficult to play? This is why we have elite specs. So that professions get access to a variety of play styles. I am sure that Anet will do a 180 and the next ele spec will be more simplified. I just don't know if they will overdo it and reach holosmith levels of simplification. > > I won't comment on how weaver itself performs, despite the skill requirements. It's clearly visible for everyone to see. Imo even core ele is more complex than most other classes, sure weaver even more so, but doesnt change the fact that it has alot more combos it can finish itself than other classes, different things it can chain together and so on. And again, its not even about the class you can generalize it to no class at all. My point is that you SHOULDNT balance purely around playtime. Doesnt matter if ele mesmer, thief, warrior or whatever the f. Low playtime is a red flag, but only to make you look at other stats that actually tell you something about its combat abillities and what it actually is capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > Mesmer > Necromancer > Guardian > > The most spammed classes in PvP with ele being the lowest....no surprise here **Let me fix that for you:** Necromancer: 8 (0.6%) Reaper: 133 (9.5%) Scourge: 131 (9.4%) **Total: 272** Guardian: 126 (9.0%) Dragonhunter: 23 (1.6%) Firebrand: 61 (4.4%) **Total: 210** Mesmer: 7 (0.5%) Chronomancer: 30 (2.1%) Mirage: 156 (11.2%) **Total: 193** Ranger: 21 (1.5%) Druid: 29 (2.1%) Soulbeast: 142 (10.2%) **Total: 192** Thief: 59 (4.2%) Daredevil: 93 (6.6%) Deadeye: 34 (2.4%) **Total: 186** You forgot ranger and thief in your complaint. With 1 far outlier and 4 classes quite close together, that makes 5 out of 9 classes with similar representation (again, necromancer being far off). Not that bad. The huge disparity in points on over 50% of the games is of way bigger concern, but was already addressed by people here. To few players in the pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > Holy Moly. > Average K/D if winning of 12. > > But he plays Mesmer so no wonder. ??? Players generally don't die a lot if they're winning, otherwise it's unlikely they'd be winning. In a comfortable winning game 12 kills for each death sounds fairly average whether I'm playing Mirage, Reaper, Scourge, CoreGuard or thief. > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > Another interesting fact which i am sure the mesmer mains will jump on. > > > > If you combine all the elite specs into their respective core class names, so sum core guard, dragonhunter and firebrand as one stat, you get the following results, > > > > > > > > Class Sum of Pct > > > > Necro 19.5 > > > > Guardian 15.0 > > > > Mesmer 13.8 > > > > Ranger 13.8 > > > > Thief 13.2 > > > > Warrior 8.3 > > > > Engineer 8.1 > > > > Revenant 4.9 > > > > Elementalist 3.4 > > > > > > > > Necro (core, reaper, scourge) in all combined version is the most played class. Combined Mirage, Chrono and core Mesmer is only 3rd place. > > > > > > > > ELE and REV needs some kind or buffs/reworks. > > > > > > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > > > > > > What you should look at when trying to balance are ingame stats like as an easy example winrate. Could also look at kill participation, average dmg output etc. > > > > > > > Agreed i was making a general observation. However if you believe the player base of any given MMO is spread evenly then if a class is disproportiantely under represented then a rework (not necessarily a buff) is probably required to help increase popularity. > > Well if we just look at ele, wether or not it needs a buff doesnt matter rn, its mechanics are rather complicated compared to other classes (all those attunements and even mixes with weaver are rly scaring alot of player off, and also increase the difficulty of mastering the class) > This will always lead to less ppl playing ele than other classes imo. > But would i change the design of the class to make it less complicated? No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > > Would you change the design of ele because of that? Ele has always had high level of complexity compared to other classes. That hasn't stopped it from being highly represented in past metas where it had dominant builds. I'm not sure how much is a result of balance and win ratios, and how much is flavor of the month bandwagoning. Maybe there were more holosmiths before the Elixir S nerf just because Holo averaged a higher win ratio putting more of them in platinum tier and after the Auto S nerf the win ratio went down leading to more Mirages and Soulbeasts naturally. But to a certain extent, people do bandwagon onto popular builds. Not just noobs but genuinely good and even top tier players too. Do you think it's a coincidence that Helio and his two alts made it to top 1,2, and 3 on NA's leaderboard with him maining boonbeast on all of them when he used to main Warrior and Rev before? Do you think Soulbeast shot up in representation just because of the druid nerfs back in the beginning of the year? Or that everyone realized they loooooooved the flavor of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashrlyyk.5364 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > Which is reasonable and desired by many competetive players. > The numbers I mentioned in my first post here directly contradict your claim! When only 3,4% of the PvP players use the elementalist then obviously it means they DO NOT desire that. They don't care for the complexity of the class, they care for it's performance in a match. If it's shit they don't play the class, no matter how complex it is. > @"RedShark.9548" said: > Why do you want every class to be the exact same thing? Its boring and not pleasing to everyone. If you dont want to put time and effort into learning a more complex class you can just stick to easier classes, its simple. > No, I want it because it makes balancing possible in the first place!! To get rid of this problem: > @"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said: > Buffing Elem (Weaver) at the moment gonna just make Averages/bads weavers good and Good Weavers.... GODS. > Because of it's complexity the ele is either too weak for most players and strong enough for a tiny little group or it it strong enough for most players but then too strong for that tiny little group who will dominate the matches. Get rid of it's complexity and then start actually balancing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > Holy Moly. > > Average K/D if winning of 12. > > > > But he plays Mesmer so no wonder. > > ??? > > Players generally don't die a lot if they're winning, otherwise it's unlikely they'd be winning. In a comfortable winning game 12 kills for each death sounds fairly average whether I'm playing Mirage, Reaper, Scourge, CoreGuard or thief. > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > > > > Another interesting fact which i am sure the mesmer mains will jump on. > > > > > If you combine all the elite specs into their respective core class names, so sum core guard, dragonhunter and firebrand as one stat, you get the following results, > > > > > > > > > > Class Sum of Pct > > > > > Necro 19.5 > > > > > Guardian 15.0 > > > > > Mesmer 13.8 > > > > > Ranger 13.8 > > > > > Thief 13.2 > > > > > Warrior 8.3 > > > > > Engineer 8.1 > > > > > Revenant 4.9 > > > > > Elementalist 3.4 > > > > > > > > > > Necro (core, reaper, scourge) in all combined version is the most played class. Combined Mirage, Chrono and core Mesmer is only 3rd place. > > > > > > > > > > ELE and REV needs some kind or buffs/reworks. > > > > > > > > How much a class is played shouldnt effect your balance choices honestly, ppl just might not like playing them. > > > > > > > > What you should look at when trying to balance are ingame stats like as an easy example winrate. Could also look at kill participation, average dmg output etc. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed i was making a general observation. However if you believe the player base of any given MMO is spread evenly then if a class is disproportiantely under represented then a rework (not necessarily a buff) is probably required to help increase popularity. > > > > Well if we just look at ele, wether or not it needs a buff doesnt matter rn, its mechanics are rather complicated compared to other classes (all those attunements and even mixes with weaver are rly scaring alot of player off, and also increase the difficulty of mastering the class) > > This will always lead to less ppl playing ele than other classes imo. > > But would i change the design of the class to make it less complicated? No, because there has to be a class thats more complicated than others. > > > > Would you change the design of ele because of that? > > Ele has always had high level of complexity compared to other classes. That hasn't stopped it from being highly represented in past metas where it had dominant builds. > > I'm not sure how much is a result of balance and win ratios, and how much is flavor of the month bandwagoning. Maybe there were more holosmiths before the Elixir S nerf just because Holo averaged a higher win ratio putting more of them in platinum tier and after the Auto S nerf the win ratio went down leading to more Mirages and Soulbeasts naturally. But to a certain extent, people do bandwagon onto popular builds. Not just noobs but genuinely good and even top tier players too. Do you think it's a coincidence that Helio and his two alts made it to top 1,2, and 3 on NA's leaderboard with him maining boonbeast on all of them when he used to main Warrior and Rev before? > > Do you think Soulbeast shot up in representation just because of the druid nerfs back in the beginning of the year? Or that everyone realized they loooooooved the flavor of it? Im not sure what you are talking about. I stated severl times that my argument has NOTHING to do with ele, ele was just my example for a more complicated class. Again: you can generalize my statement about complicated classes. And secondly i also said, that i wouldnt deny that ele probably should be looked into because it may be to weak. Are ppl not reading the whole post? > @"Kashrlyyk.5364" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > Which is reasonable and desired by many competetive players. > > > The numbers I mentioned in my first post here directly contradict your claim! When only 3,4% of the PvP players use the elementalist then obviously it means they DO NOT desire that. They don't care for the complexity of the class, they care for it's performance in a match. If it's kitten they don't play the class, no matter how complex it is. > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > Why do you want every class to be the exact same thing? Its boring and not pleasing to everyone. If you dont want to put time and effort into learning a more complex class you can just stick to easier classes, its simple. > > > No, I want it because it makes balancing possible in the first place!! > To get rid of this problem: > > @"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said: > > Buffing Elem (Weaver) at the moment gonna just make Averages/bads weavers good and Good Weavers.... GODS. > > > Because of it's complexity the ele is either too weak for most players and strong enough for a tiny little group or it it strong enough for most players but then too strong for that tiny little group who will dominate the matches. Get rid of it's complexity and then start actually balancing the game. Look at what ive wrote above. I never said that ele doesnt need a buff. The low percentage of ele still doesnt necessary mean that ele needs a buff, the bandwaggoning of mesmer soulbeast and holo atm is just so ridiculous that even the ele players swapped to that kitten. AGAIN the low playpercentage is a WARNING that devs should look into it, look at why its so rarely played. Is it underperforming? Are other classes just waaay too oppressive? Etc. Never should a class just be buffed until its numbers of playtime rise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus.3192 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > The low percentage of ele still doesnt necessary mean that ele needs a buff, the bandwaggoning of mesmer soulbeast and holo atm is just so ridiculous that even the ele players swapped to that kitten. AGAIN the low playpercentage is a WARNING that devs should look into it, look at why its so rarely played. Is it underperforming? Are other classes just waaay too oppressive? Etc. Never should a class just be buffed until its numbers of playtime rise... Exactly a class can be buffed by nerfing other classes. As you said nerfing the most popular classes plus some potential reworks of ele could bring the player percentages more in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 > @"Spartacus.3192" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > The low percentage of ele still doesnt necessary mean that ele needs a buff, the bandwaggoning of mesmer soulbeast and holo atm is just so ridiculous that even the ele players swapped to that kitten. AGAIN the low playpercentage is a WARNING that devs should look into it, look at why its so rarely played. Is it underperforming? Are other classes just waaay too oppressive? Etc. Never should a class just be buffed until its numbers of playtime rise... > > Exactly a class can be buffed by nerfing other classes. As you said nerfing the most popular classes plus some potential reworks of ele could bring the player percentages more in line. "Ele should be buffed" doesn't necessarily mean that closest elementalist build to being meta, SD Weaver, should be buffed. If you nerfed the other 1vx builds to the point where SD weaver is the best among them that would be a terrible meta as SD weaver is a boring build to fight, where all of it's skills feel low impact, and it's ability to resustain to full very easily make it especially unfun to fight against. It's a weaker version of pre-nerf druid that just stalls and stalls and stalls and stalls while having no kill potential and I don't want to see side noding devolve into just that. The problem with Elementalist is two fold. Not only is it underperforming across the board and yes even it's strongest build is generally low impact, especially in comparison to other 1vX builds like Boonbeast, Mirage, Spellbreaker, even Holosmith, but all the things that are potentially exciting about playing elementalist are almost completely nonviable. Elementalist is the Guild Wars equivalent of that classic fireball throwing mage nuking people with big AoE damage from a distance. You look at other classes that are doing good right now: Core Guardian gives you that feeling of being a smiting paladin that obliterates people with holy powers while also having good sustain options. Firebrand gives you that feeling of being a support paladin who heals allies, protects them, and removes negative conditions. Spellbreaker gives you that feeling of being this highly trained master of arms who can parry and counter attack while also being a resilient and study and having high impact damage capabilities. Sic Em Soulbeast gives you the feeling of being an amazing archer. Boonbeast gives you that feeling of being a resilient wildernest survivalist. Scourge gives you the feeling of being a plague master, corrupting large areas of ground and everyone in it. Reaper gives you that feeling of being a death knight. The only area it doesn't really live up to the feeling of being a necromancer is minion swarms. Thief and daredevil give you that feeling of being a highly skilled, fast, untouchable ninja. Deadeye gives you that feeling of being a deadly sniper. Elementalist isn't just struggling in terms of effectiveness, it struggles with part of it's core identity. Both healing supporting hydromancers that heal their allies is underperforming. Like even Firebrand, the best support, has a massively reduced presence in ranked queues this season compared to previous ones. And if you nerf it further you're just not going to see anyone bring support into ranked period rather than bring a heal tempest so it absolutely needs buffs. And Elementalist should have some sort of viable high impact team DPS carry that can compete with Scourge, Holosmith, and Revenant so you can actually get that feeling of being a mage and raining death on people and yeah that'll take buffs. Fresh Air Weaver was the closest it's gotten to that particular appeal and that got nerfed to the point where I literally only see one person ever running it in ranked and almost completely abandoned. People talk about how underpowered elementalists are right now, but they don't talk about how unfulfilling elementalist as a class ideal is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now