Insanely overpowered ranger skills - Eg. Whirling Defense does more damage than hundred blades

[Brendan.1309]

Context is missing from all of this.

 

I love playing thief and ranger. Speaking of spvp alone I enjoy playing thief because You can steal through walls. You can shadowstep through a floor and grab a buff on coliseum, you can jump off terrain that’s hard to get up to, kiting your enemies that follow only to waste all their time by using SB5 back up top to finish off their remaining team members outnumbered.

 

My ranger can’t do any of that and that’s ok.

 

This whole post seems to blur the lines of what ranger build it wants to complain about and in what scenario as if each ranger can have the strengths of all it’s builds, all of its weapons and it always has the high ground in a no port spot that can’t be accessed at the same time.

 

Professions and builds are different, and sometimes the counterplay in this game is to choose different terrain, a different fight, or to bring friends to assist. It’s an MMO not street fighter.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

> @"Brendan.1309" said:

> Context is missing from all of this.

>

> I love playing thief and ranger. Speaking of spvp alone I enjoy playing thief because You can steal through walls. You can shadowstep through a floor and grab a buff on coliseum, you can jump off terrain that’s hard to get up to, kiting your enemies that follow only to waste all their time by using SB5 back up top to finish off their remaining team members outnumbered.

>

> My ranger can’t do any of that and that’s ok.

>

> This whole post seems to blur the lines of what ranger build it wants to complain about and in what scenario as if each ranger can have the strengths of all it’s builds, all of its weapons and it always has the high ground in a no port spot that can’t be accessed at the same time.

>

> Professions and builds are different, and sometimes the counterplay in this game is to choose different terrain, a different fight, or to bring friends to assist. It’s an MMO not street fighter.

 

The context is not missing ... the post (including the title) itself it is wrong.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Brendan.1309" said:

> Context is missing from all of this.

>

> I love playing thief and ranger. Speaking of spvp alone I enjoy playing thief because You can steal through walls. You can shadowstep through a floor and grab a buff on coliseum, you can jump off terrain that’s hard to get up to, kiting your enemies that follow only to waste all their time by using SB5 back up top to finish off their remaining team members outnumbered.

>

> My ranger can’t do any of that and that’s ok.

>

> This whole post seems to blur the lines of what ranger build it wants to complain about and in what scenario as if each ranger can have the strengths of all it’s builds, all of its weapons and it always has the high ground in a no port spot that can’t be accessed at the same time.

>

> Professions and builds are different, and sometimes the counterplay in this game is to choose different terrain, a different fight, or to bring friends to assist. It’s an MMO not street fighter.

 

Context is certainly also missing in that there is substantially more LoS in sPvP than in WvW, and damage in general is substantially higher in WvW than it is in sPvP.

 

Ironically, this damage used to make WvW a more balanced format back in like 2014 because bunkers were mathematically over-efficient in sPvP even excluding the capture and hold context.

 

People are not dying in single longbow autos in sPvP while they are in WvW (there have been screenshots by rangers of this happening), meanwhile also having no cover options to negate the damage while the ranegr can maintain lots more reset availability to maintain cooldown/ranged advantages than otherwise available in sPvP.

 

The issue is as soon as we justify numbers based on using and abusing LoS we end up with the situation the ranger used to be in before the CDI some years ago, where it had little agency in a fight despite having the ability to deal substantial pressure, and thus the ranger's chance of a winning a fight was generally based on how poorly its opponent performed versus how well the ranger did.

 

Currently the soulbeast thanks to its massively-inflated stats holds a bit too much agency when approaching a given fight, and its counters are largely dependent on it misplaying massively in order to retaliate with much of a chance to really do anything.

 

I think soulbeast should be harder to play to justify this degree of agency - akin to how thief and mesmer are supposed to function - and even then, there is some degree of concern of those numbers. Even SA Deadeye is much harder to play, and by relative terms it's quite easy compared to most other professions/builds.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Prophet.1584" said:

> >

> >

> > > thief can have multiple shadowsteps to move the same distance you mentioned and more

> >

> > You do realize to achieve 2200 disengage on a thief, assuming no immediate perfectly-placed 1200-unit-far-away ambient creature, it requires a weapon swap to a weapon which has very little combat potential, a minimum of 12 initiative (full bar 100-0 forcing all skills on its kit to a minimum 3s cooldown from 3 left over from Preparedness, assuming Trickery - 6s otherwise - for a single cast of one ability) and a 20-50 second cooldown (at best, traited Steal, at worst, shadowstep), right? That's literally complaining about a spec burning almost every single resource it has - from full resources - just to not die. And then it has no kill pressure for 10 seconds and must be within 900 range.

> >

> > Yes, a thief can absolutely cover more distance than a ranger in theory, but it's also the entire existence of its defense/how it was and has been balanced since beta, and needs to burn way more resources at virtually every point in any scenario to disengage than soulbeast.

> >

> > Soulbeast's mobility is a problem because its mobility, similar to Mirage, is basically without any real semblance of resource cost. Like I posted above, the same is said about its damage and its defense. Almost zero major sacrifices are made relative to other professions.

>

> @"DeceiverX.8361" I only want to say ... 2 skills ... that's all ... Shadowstep and then Infiltrator's Arrow ... 1200+ 3x900 = 3900 range. That's it, nothing more ... eventually 1 invisibility skill too at the end.

> Please tell me what class can follow a thief with these 2 skills? And believe me, there are MANY thieves who are using these skills without losing any damage/pressure on the enemy.

> What you say about swap weapon, little potential combat, CD on the skills, etc is nonsense ... because ranger also or any other class it will be on CD on the running skills. Swoop for birds, swoop on Greatsword are used in combat too, and maybe exact on the time you need it to run away it will be on CD. So please, don't tell us that the runner class of GW2 or the best class with disengage ability is not a Thief, but ranger or other class. I can prove you any time and any second that a zerk (glass cannon) thief cand go in the middle of 2-5 enemies, killed someone, and then disappear even he has only 15k HP. The only other class who can do this is Messmer, not Ranger, not Warrior, no one. Why? Because these 2 class, Thief and Mesmer, have the best abilities for going in stealth many seconds and teleport.

> Have a good night!

 

There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

 

Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

 

Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

 

* Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

* Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

* Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

 

This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

 

I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

 

Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

 

It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

 

Have you seen Glad's stream?

He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

* **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

* **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

* **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

* **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

* **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

 

You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

 

Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

[Revolution.5409]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

>

> Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

>

> Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

>

> * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

>

> This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

>

> I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

>

> Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

>

> It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

>

> Have you seen Glad's stream?

> He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

>

> You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

>

> Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

 

 

The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

 

Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

 

The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

 

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

Not argueing whether Soulbeast is balanced, just correcting some things:

 

Swoop (bird merged skill) goes on full cd if cancelled. You are probably mistaking it with Crippling Leap (wolf merged skill), which has 800 range and goes on 4s cd if cancelled, however it can only be cancelled with weapon swap, so you can't do it every time in combat due to swap cd.

 

Quick Draw has 9s cd, so combining it with warrior rune is pointless. It basically gives you one extra leap per weapon swap, but doesn't turn those leaps into spammable skills. Going QD also means trading dmg and/or survivability for mobility/utility and i haven't seen a ranger using it the last months. Don't think that trait is an issue at all.

 

The initial cast of Hornet Sting roots you in place for a moment, so while total distance travelled during the roll + leap might be 1k, the actual distance gained compared to someone running is a bit shorter.

 

Now that's still a lot of mobility, and chasing a running SB is probably not the best idea on most classes (same goes for chasing a running thief btw), however if they run, it usually gives you time to move into the other direction and get to a better spot where they can't abuse their superior range, so i feel like mobility isn't the biggest issue about SB balance (though as long they don't touch core, i wouldn't mind any SB nerfs tbh).

[Swagger.1459]

Things I learned and am reminded of from this thread...

 

1- Players need to practice and read, in addition to just loading up metabattle and copying a build.

 

2- Players with lack of experience need to improve themselves, their build and their knowledge, to lessen the learning curve.

 

3- Often times when a players loses they blame the other profession and go to the forums to vent those losses. Nobody likes to lose, but start looking at yourself first because there are more skilled players out there at the controls.

 

4- There are more productive ways to address issues. Instead of coming to the forum and dropping QQ bombs, some of you should try to turn that energy into productive suggestions, not just complaints about “op nerf this and that because I got beat”... Examples of constructive thinking and suggestions on professions and designs...

 

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necro-ideas

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-would-be-a-healthy-change

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64920/weapon-and-build-diversity

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36063/old-forum-thread-about-balance-that-s-worth-reading

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35072/radical-wvw-idea-let-s-go-crazy

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/11455/how-to-fix-condi-issues

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/8080/forbes-interview-and-my-thoughts-on-competitive-gameplay-development

 

 

 

... The devs would pay more attention to the forums if more of you spent more time being rational and offering well thought out improvements, as opposed to the whining about X profession or X build because you lost in a team based game not designed for 1v1 combat...

 

And remember this before some of you post next time... It's easy for the devs and more mature minded veteran players to see who is being level headed, honest, constructive and looking to improve themselves or the game as a whole... It's really easy for some of us to spot those that are just whining because they lost a 1v1 fight after crossing a better player, and are now needing something to blame except for themselves.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

> >

> > Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

> >

> > Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> > They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> > Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

> >

> > * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> > * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> > * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

> >

> > This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> > Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

> >

> > I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> > This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> > You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

> >

> > Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> > And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

> >

> > It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> > This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

> >

> > Have you seen Glad's stream?

> > He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> > * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> > * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> > * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> > * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> > * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

> >

> > You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> > A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> > And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

> >

> > Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> > Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

>

>

> The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

> Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

> Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

>

> Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

>

> The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

> To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

>

 

Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

 

Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

 

And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

 

The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

 

Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

 

On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

 

Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

[Revolution.5409]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

>

> Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

>

> Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

>

> And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

>

> The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

>

> Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

>

> On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

>

> Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

 

Yes, I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

 

I have no problem with rangers or thieves or any other class can kite and be fast.

 

As I said at the end of my post the problem of wvw in my opinion and what makes this build seem too strong is the damage that the classes are able to do.

 

This works.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Magebane_Roamer

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

> > >

> > > Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

> > >

> > > Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> > > They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> > > Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

> > >

> > > * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> > > * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> > > * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

> > >

> > > This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> > > Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

> > >

> > > I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> > > This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> > > You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

> > >

> > > Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> > > And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

> > >

> > > It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> > > This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

> > >

> > > Have you seen Glad's stream?

> > > He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> > > * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> > > * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> > > * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> > > * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> > > * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

> > >

> > > You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> > > A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> > > And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

> > >

> > > Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> > > Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

> >

> >

> > The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

> > Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

> > Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

> >

> > Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

> >

> > The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

> > To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

> >

>

> Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

>

> Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

>

> And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

>

> The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

>

> Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

>

> On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

>

> Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

 

Do you realize that you either have mobility and dmg or tanking ability and dmg?

Now not only you expect a ranger class in a MMO not to have best mobility and ranged dmg..you also expect all classes to enter into a melee brawl against your condi/boon rip necro builds

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHYGzduxOE

 

All you do is running in circle overloading others with condis while being extremely tanking yourself and **the only reason you don't see many more necro roaming is because the majority of bandwagoners are happy enough with their shade trigger spammy zerg build**. Your entire build forces everybody else to extreme kiting to avoid all condi bombs and yet...here you are complaining about the very same thing which counter you...double standards at its finest

[Swagger.1459]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

> > >

> > > Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

> > >

> > > Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> > > They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> > > Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

> > >

> > > * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> > > * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> > > * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

> > >

> > > This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> > > Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

> > >

> > > I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> > > This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> > > You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

> > >

> > > Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> > > And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

> > >

> > > It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> > > This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

> > >

> > > Have you seen Glad's stream?

> > > He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> > > * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> > > * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> > > * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> > > * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> > > * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

> > >

> > > You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> > > A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> > > And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

> > >

> > > Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> > > Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

> >

> >

> > The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

> > Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

> > Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

> >

> > Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

> >

> > The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

> > To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

> >

>

> Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

>

> Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

>

> And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

>

> The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

>

> Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

>

> On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

>

> Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

 

Instead of complain that another profession has “something”, be more constructive and ask for buffs to the ones that don’t.

 

You main necro, yet I’ve provided more suggestions to buff necro than you... go figure.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

>

> Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

>

> Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

>

> And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

>

> The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

>

> Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

>

> On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

>

> Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

 

Ranger sword 2 in game only mentions the 130 range (the stab range) and revolution probably got confused. It's Saturday and only been a few hours. Did you expect everyone to instantly read it? Anyhow, I do think SB is a bit over tuned on some level, especially roaming in WvW but that is mostly about the alpha strike potential not the mobility. Some counter points on mobility/range:

 

The first part of sword 2 is an evade but the second part is not. Swoop (bird) is also not an evade. GS3 swoop is only an evade at the end when the ranger swings the sword. You can immob/CC during these. None of the running away mobility on ranger is instant cast: A 1-2 second cast time on 1000 range mobility is worth less than a 900 range instant teleport.

 

The DH scenario you listed went way wrong. If you are fighting someone with unblockable, you don't use F3 and not dodge. JI + sword 2 is an instant 1800 range teleport + blind. F1 is a 1200 range leash. So basically 3k range can be covered quickly/gap closed. You cannot dodge the pull of DH F1. So leash before the SB tries to GS3 or Sword 2 and then pull them once they try to use any of their mobility skills to interrupt the mobility regardless of evade frames. 1800 range teleport + DH elite vs a glass SB with no easy stability = dead SB. If using meditation elite, channel that invuln, or double dodge. Seriously, why use F3 and face take an unblockable attack.

 

Weaver: Burning speed? Who uses dagger on weaver while roaming? Sw + Focus or dagger. Air 2 is a 600 range teleport. Ride the lighting is 1200 range. Lighting flash is 900. More importantly though, Comet and gale are both 900 range CC skills which stops sword 2.2 and swoop before the SB has a chance to leave. Oh and that 600 range teleport air 2 is also a daze. Elite FGS 3 and 4 are both 900 range and can basically match ranger mobility.

 

Holo: Rocket boots, rifle 5 or holo 2 to quickly gap close then...Rifle 2 and 4 are 1200 range immob and INSTANT CC. See above for when you use CC.

 

Spell breaker.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Magebane_Roamer

 

Thief should have zero problems catching a SB: Shadow step then time Steal for a near instant 2400 range interrupt on SB mobility.

Mesmer "OP". More than mesmer can reflect. Rev sword/shiro.

 

Necro: Yeah you are right on that, just a walking bag in that scenario. Those reaper shroud/SR nerfs hurt RS2 mobility a lot which was the only real answer to these situations, especially with the projectile blocking on it. The most I can recommend is to try and abuse spectral walk and outplay the ranger. Also sacrifice something to Anet and hope they add a new elite spec with mobility on the weapon. Sword MH necro!

 

So 8/9. Feel free to link glad videos since I'm not familiar with that streamer.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

> > > >

> > > > Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

> > > >

> > > > Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> > > > They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> > > > Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

> > > >

> > > > * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> > > > * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> > > > * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

> > > >

> > > > This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> > > > Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

> > > >

> > > > I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> > > > This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> > > > You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

> > > >

> > > > Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> > > > And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

> > > >

> > > > It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> > > > This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

> > > >

> > > > Have you seen Glad's stream?

> > > > He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> > > > * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> > > > * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> > > > * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> > > > * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> > > > * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

> > > >

> > > > You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> > > > A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> > > > And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

> > > >

> > > > Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> > > > Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

> > >

> > >

> > > The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

> > > Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

> > > Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

> > >

> > > Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

> > >

> > > The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

> > > To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

> > >

> >

> > Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> > And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

> >

> > Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

> >

> > And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

> >

> > The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

> >

> > Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

> >

> > On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

> >

> > Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

>

> Instead of complain that another profession has “something”, be more constructive and ask for buffs to the ones that don’t.

>

> You main necro, yet I’ve provided more suggestions to buff necro than you... go figure.

 

And most of the suggestions in the past you proposed for necro were totally beyond overpowered and were based on fundamental misunderstandings of the class and its respective strengths and limitations.

 

I imagine I only speak for a small minority of people still playing the game, but the "if everyone is OP nobody is OP" mentality is what has resulted in so many people quitting (literally why all the pro players quit - they came out and said this - and there are obvious circumstances when efficacy in relation to difficulty/risk are wildly out of balance and the only answer is hard nerfs rather than dumbing down the game and making build viability lay only further on the extrema.

 

Soulbeast is guilty of this right now. It's just way too overtuned from a numbers perspective for what it can do. If you want pre-nerf-pre-nerf signet-thief and current power reaper levels of damage, it should come at a major cost to the available tools like those respective builds have. If you want a huge plethora of sustain options and tools, it should come at a major cost to damage like those classes need to build away from.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

This whole thread is funny,soulbeast is broken,anyone defending it knows it but who cares? It’s great for pve and that’s all that really matters. U guys are going back and forth for what? To improve the balance of ranger for gw2’s pvp modes? Gw2 pvp modes are complete garbage haha and is going to be barren soon,every mmo has its far share of rage quit post but this year gw has to have made a record. Good job arenet team lol the pvp is a mash of the cheesiest builds players could produce exploiting the garbage balance arenet has achieved and wvw is nothing more than blobs running forward with thier fb and scourge Condi spam circles and outside of those u got ur holo, soulbeast and mirage’s all using the same cheese builds. And all the community complains about arenet garbage balancing yet it’s the community choosing these builds helping arenet kill the game so what’s the point of these constant nerf threads lol who cares just play till u quit too lol

[Deepcuts.9740]

My question to the OP is:

* assuming you are right and Whirling Defense does more damage than Hundred Blades.

Up until when it was the other way around, did you complain that Hundred Blades does more damage than Whirling Defense?

 

In my opinion, every class geared the exact same should dish out the exact same damage given the exact same target.

 

[Swagger.1459]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > > There is a difference between the thief being highly mobile and a ranger being highly mobile.

> > > > >

> > > > > Soulbeasts have a **1800 range Longbow High DPS weapon** which they can use to blast their opponents after widening the gap again and again due to their **extremely low cooldown** mobility skills.

> > > > >

> > > > > Given the range of their longbows, Soulbeasts have gotten too much mobility through Swoop on the bird pet.

> > > > > They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.

> > > > > Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

> > > > >

> > > > > * Pet bird Swoop - 1200 range (10 secs CD) (**CD can be cut to 5 secs** if you super-cancel the skill near the end of the leap)

> > > > > * Hornet sting/Monarch leap - 1000 range (8 secs CD) or

> > > > > * Great sword Swoop - 1000 range (12 secs CD)

> > > > >

> > > > > This is not even factoring the already existing defensive mechanisms on the class.

> > > > > Knockback on LB, Invis on LB, block on GS, Evades on S/D, invis on interactions with pet fields, more evades via smokescale merge etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've even seen soulbeasts who run **quickdraw/warrior runes** for 66% skill CD reduction on swap and 8 seconds weapon swapping CD.

> > > > > This effectively makes Hornet sting/Monarch Leap **3 seconds** or Greatsword swoop **4 seconds**.

> > > > > You can't even begin to imagine the mobility that they have now.

> > > > >

> > > > > Near **1200 range** swoop on **5 seconds CD** + **1000 range** Hornet sting/Monarch Leap on **3 seconds CD**

> > > > > And you can say this is balanced mobility on a long-range DPS class?

> > > > >

> > > > > It has gotten to a point where extreme kiting soulbeasts can only be caught by thief and mesmer/revs to some extent.

> > > > > This is a **huge mobility creep** for a long range DPS class.

> > > > >

> > > > > Have you seen Glad's stream?

> > > > > He does extreme kiting with a high DPS longbow build and no class can even touch him except for thieves (and to a lesser extent, reflect mesmer/rev).

> > > > > * **Holosmith** Rockboots and overheat leaps? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D. Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD. Then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The holosmith never touched him.**

> > > > > * **Spellbreaker** dagger leaps and greatsword dash and shield block to close the gap? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, Repeat both skills another time if needed as they are on low CD, then turn around and blast with Longbow, rinse and repeat. **The SpB never touched him.**

> > > > > * **Weaver** ride the lightning, flash and burning speed? Glad turns and runs with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat. **The Weaver never touched him.**

> > > > > * **Dragonhunter** on F3 shield, flash forward and spear to pull? Sorry, Glad already blasted him into shreds with unblockable and negated pull with stab. If not dead, turn and run with swoop and S/D, then turn around and blast with longbow rinse and repeat.

> > > > > * **Necromancer** just a walking bag.

> > > > >

> > > > > You see what low CD high mobility skills and high range DPS has made Soulbeasts?

> > > > > A Long-range High DPS beast that can't be caught and totally shuts down **any build** on at least **5** of the 9 classes.

> > > > > And the skills needed? Know how to turn and run when they try to get close then turn and shoot. Throw in an invis here and there if needed. Rinse and Repeat.

> > > > >

> > > > > Necros used to be the only ones suffering from this long-range shoot and run treatment because other classes had enough tools to close the gap.

> > > > > Now? No class can keep up evenly with an extreme kiting Soulbeast except for a thief =)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The CD can be reduced with Cripling leap by interrupting the skill not on swoop.

> > > > Hornet Sting range 130 + Monarch's Leap range 600 = range 730

> > > > Half of the defensive skills are also used to attack.

> > > >

> > > > Glad is a veteran player any build in the hands of a good player could be called OP.

> > > >

> > > > The build is strong and something needs to be reviewed, as the whole output dmg present in wvw, but most classes have the means to deal with it.

> > > > To get damage and mobility rangers renounce defensive skills and clean conditions or give up BM / MM for WS and have sustain but a much lower blowout. not being caught unprepared is already a good starting point to counter these rangers. :)

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> > > And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

> > >

> > > Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

> > >

> > > And it doesn't matter for my point here even if half the mobility skills here can be used to Attack.

> > >

> > > The fact is they allow a ranger to outrun 5 out of 9 classes and then turn and shoot.

> > >

> > > Most classes can deal with an extreme kiting soulbeast? Would you show me a build on any of my five listed class that can keep up?

> > >

> > > On the other hand, I can point you to Glads vids. The guys trying to chase him are not noobs. They just don't have the tools to catch his playstyle of shoot run shoot run.

> > >

> > > Only a thief caught him and a reflect mesmer forced him to run.

> >

> > Instead of complain that another profession has “something”, be more constructive and ask for buffs to the ones that don’t.

> >

> > You main necro, yet I’ve provided more suggestions to buff necro than you... go figure.

>

> And most of the suggestions in the past you proposed for necro were totally beyond overpowered and were based on fundamental misunderstandings of the class and its respective strengths and limitations.

>

> I imagine I only speak for a small minority of people still playing the game, but the "if everyone is OP nobody is OP" mentality is what has resulted in so many people quitting (literally why all the pro players quit - they came out and said this - and there are obvious circumstances when efficacy in relation to difficulty/risk are wildly out of balance and the only answer is hard nerfs rather than dumbing down the game and making build viability lay only further on the extrema.

>

> Soulbeast is guilty of this right now. It's just way too overtuned from a numbers perspective for what it can do. If you want pre-nerf-pre-nerf signet-thief and current power reaper levels of damage, it should come at a major cost to the available tools like those respective builds have. If you want a huge plethora of sustain options and tools, it should come at a major cost to damage like those classes need to build away from.

 

Nah, my suggestions bring more balanced build choices between professions, and look at resolutions to reoccurring issues and complaints on the pvp side of this game.

 

“Pro players” and veterans have left for a plethora of reasons, and I don’t think you want to start dredging down those hundred paths of discussion.

 

I’ll tell you this straight up... this is a heavy pve game with profession designs and combat systems primarily built for pve... that has pvp and wvw as selling features. Any of your suggestions have stuck to the status quo, mine change things so profession can be more versatile, competitive, fun... and have more viable build options, in pvp modes. You’re not paying attention to what the main issues are for pvp modes, and that’s real clear.

[Cerioth.7062]

I feel like people are forgetting that there are tradeoffs. The "OP longbow builds" are not very tanky at all, sniper ranger has always been glassy, though it also has decent mobility.

 

Now I dont doubt there are some hybrid soulbeasts that arent running the standard Boonbeast or Sniper builds, but those hybrids are all lacking in flavor one way or another. Learn to recognize the build, then learn to counter it. Boonbeast is not going to kite you with the same capacity as sniper LB.

 

Note that I am only talking about PVP capacity here, not touching WvW since I havent roamed in ages.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Passive SoS should either be removed or put elsewhere. It's legitimately stupid to put it in such a low-priority trait slot in an offensive line. I think ANet wanted to make MMS desirable because it somewhat lacks power otherwise compared to skirmishing and WS on core/druid, but it really is just lazy and there should be more incentive to play MMS through active play.

> > >

> > > Sic 'Em is a problem, and the amount of free stats given by BM and pets are a problem when combined with things like extended damage immunity, high mobility, and extended unblockable attacks. BM+SB is basically permanent 20 might + fury + some extra damage and sustain without actually occupying might stacks or running the risk of being corrupted. It's a time-duration Pre-nerf-pre-nerf Assassin's Signet (yes, they nerfed it twice), which was game-shatteringly overpowered at launch and applied only to a single attack, had no extra benefits like revealed, and had a longer cooldown.

> > >

> > > The issue is that like many other things in the game, soulbeast has a bloated kit and needs to have a bloated kit because a number of specs released in PoF also have incredibly bloated kits... like FB, Holo, Mirage, and to some extent, Deadeye (though even Deadeye's main issues are more symptoms of previous bad design in thief paired with two relatively thoughtless abilities rather than actual problems with the DE itself).

> > >

> > > Ranger is particularly gross however just because of how safe it is. 1800 range attacks dealing an upwards of 7-10k damage (more with OWP) and its combo on an 8s cooldown dealing 50k+ damage in the span of a few seconds with a very high amount of mobility and at least one invuln (one of which is even passive), all on the same build, is not only just difficult to deal with, but frankly, extremely *easy* to play and do well with. It's strictly stronger than warrior has ever been, and by a very substantial margin at that, and frankly, miles easier.

> > >

> > > We need to see the game toned down because in all honesty it's just no fun anymore. Especially when going back to core game content and in the PvP modes. One of ANet's main pillars of GW2 was to never phase out old content as to keep it feeling fresh and good. It's why we have downscaled events and dungeons and so on. It's why the gear level was never increased. And yet, the fundamental aspect of playing the game - the classes - bring so much extra power they render any and all of their predecessor content - including their predecessor classes - not just bad, but unenjoyable to deal with because of how easy and mindless it is.

> > >

> > > When I go against a core game class with an elite spec at this point, I often feel I don't even need to think to beat them. That's not fun for me and it sure isn't fun for them. Soulbeast is the most egregious, followed by mirage and then holosmith.

> > >

> > > WD, Prelude Lash, and the rest are all pretty okay Honestly, Swoop is a great addition for players who want to play the kiting-focused mobile DPS which core ranger and druid otherwise fail to deliver on. But the prominent builds running around right now are really oppressive and feel like they have no counterplay when playing a build with a slight disadvantage or which do not have blatant and direct answers, and often times, when the soulbeast plays well, have their answers negated thanks to things like unbockable attack access, stealth denial, substantial cleave and CC, and so on all within easy grasp.

> > >

> > > Hell, I know a few ranger players who have even stopped playing the class because they stopped having fun with it largely being a free win in most matchups just *because* nothing really brings any real threat save condi mirage. But that's just OP vs OP...

> >

> > Really, I can't stop laughing ... when I see someone saying Soulbeast is OP, that he can do 50k damage from 1800 ranger etc ... Yes, he can, as Mesmer and Thief can too, not from 1800, but from 1500. The only BIG difference is that Mesmer and Thief can easily escape after that burst, and Ranger can't!

> > A good player with a balanced build always will beat a Sniper Soulbeast. Please don't look only on Youtube video, and get from there the idea Berserker Sic'em Build is OP, because is not vs good players.

>

> DE does massively less damage than SB since the rework. DE just has fewer inherent tells, but standard rifle combo is basically the same thing as PBS+RF. Literally the only thing keeping DE oppressive is SScope and SA interactions. DJ is garbage and people who die to it either got massively outplayed or suck/aren't paying attention. Mirage can't even dream of the burst damage SB brings; it's 100-0 is just able to get an unsuspecting foe and nothing more.

>

> I'd love for you to enlighten me on this math of yours about thief burst, especially. It's not like I'm an authority on burst thief or anything. Not like I've mained the maximum-possible burst damage thief build for the past six and a half years. /s

>

> And to say ranger can't escape. Are you kidding me? Bird? Arctic Wolf? GS3? Free 1000+ range mobility on such low cooldowns is bad escape? Again, the only class in the game rocking that kind of mobility without major cost is Mirage. Even thief using shortbow struggles to keep up with that much burst disengage while maintaining some semblance of fuel in the tank.

>

> Honestly, I'm pretty sure the issue is more that you've never played the other classes more than anything. Hell, there have been a number of new thieves who mained ranger previously claiming S/D was crazy strong in the past who have come to the boards asking for help on how to deal with anything because they feel totally useless compared to their soulbeast, to slowly realize they learned the game on a training wheels class/build.

>

> What's crazy is I even justified why the SB's kit is wildly overloaded in my post - and how it needs to be - by agreeing with you that these other specs are broken on their design levels which makes for exploitable play with limited weaknesses when played competently. The issue is that SB is broken in numbers which makes it super strong when played by anyone at all. And at the moment it's a bit excessive.

>

> My criticism is that soulbeast is incredibly easy to achieve such high success with and how its damage is so easy to achieve without much cost to its efficacy on other scenarios. It has an answer to nearly everywhere in some aspect of its kits without much investment required to actually get it. Even if it doesn't have the best disengage in the game, it still has better disengage than 90% of the game. Even if it didn't have the best sustain in the game (P.S., as far as full glass builds go, it does, objectively), it still can tank better than 80% of what's out there. Even without the most ranged damage (which it also has), it still gets massively safe engages with next to no opportunity cost. You don't actually need to be even remotely good to pose a massive threat in smallscale when playing one. That's my point.

>

> And if the build I'm referencing is so bad and so insignificant as you claim - which nearly every soulbeast I've encountered in WvW runs (which is around half the overall roaming population today or more I'd say) - then these nerfs will have no impact on the real "good" rangers and just hit the noobs who press three buttons and automatically kill anyone not running an invuln. So... how does this impact ranger skill expression or viability then? According to your logic, it doesn't.

>

> When I go into WvW, if I want things to die and not need to think very much, I play my soulbeast in exotic gear. Despite the fact that I've only put maybe 400 hours in ranger, and despite the fact that I have almost fifteen times the play time and thousands of gold into gear and tons of math to optimize my thief, it's just easy, and generally, just stronger.

>

> **Say what you will, but this spec overperforms. OP went too far, but the spirit of the post - soulbeast having ridiculously overtuned numbers and a very easy play pattern to get solid results from - aren't untrue in the slightest.**

The spirit of the post?

 

The op compared a bunch of skills that practically no one uses. /golfclap

 

And he made this one claim at the end "The soulbeast is the most overpowered thing to ever exist in the entirety on Guild Wars 2. More overpowered than a scourge combined with preHoT cele ele combined with prePoF chronomancer. How is this allowed?"

 

 

He didn't make a reasonable claim that soulbeast is overtuned or even a 'RIDICULOUSLY overtuned' claim like you did.

 

 

He said Soulbeasts are more op than a scourge combined with a prehot cele ele combined with a pre pof chronomancer.

 

I got 2 questions for you,

 

Why is the thief expert on the Ranger forums?

 

Do rangers underperform or do all thief specs (other than DE) underperform?

[borya.2964]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

 

> Sorry but I think you got hornet Sting wrong. The roll back is 400 range.

> And like seriously no ranger here bothered to correct you?

>

> Shows how much you guys want to defend your OP mobility.

 

 

In order to use sword 2 mobility with its full potential (to leap straight forward) you need to use the "advance about face trick" : that's 4 keys to use with perfect timing (when most class only need one key to achieve the same thing), with Hornet Sting rooting you on the very first portion of the animation and Monarch's Leap being interruptible during its full duration. Calling this OP mobility is pretty much bad faith.

 

And there's nothing to defend against false assumption : you can't cancel a successful Swoop (merged) to reduce its CD.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@"Ruufio.1496" @"EremiteAngel.9765" Please play the profession in game for more than a minute before posting on the forums to ask for nerfs. You've both posted misinformation that does not contribute in any fashion to a balance discussion. You undermine your own arguments.

[Brendan.1309]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Brendan.1309" said:

> > Context is missing from all of this.

> >

> > I love playing thief and ranger. Speaking of spvp alone I enjoy playing thief because You can steal through walls. You can shadowstep through a floor and grab a buff on coliseum, you can jump off terrain that’s hard to get up to, kiting your enemies that follow only to waste all their time by using SB5 back up top to finish off their remaining team members outnumbered.

> >

> > My ranger can’t do any of that and that’s ok.

> >

> > This whole post seems to blur the lines of what ranger build it wants to complain about and in what scenario as if each ranger can have the strengths of all it’s builds, all of its weapons and it always has the high ground in a no port spot that can’t be accessed at the same time.

> >

> > Professions and builds are different, and sometimes the counterplay in this game is to choose different terrain, a different fight, or to bring friends to assist. It’s an MMO not street fighter.

>

> Context is certainly also missing in that there is substantially more LoS in sPvP than in WvW, and damage in general is substantially higher in WvW than it is in sPvP.

>

> Ironically, this damage used to make WvW a more balanced format back in like 2014 because bunkers were mathematically over-efficient in sPvP even excluding the capture and hold context.

>

> People are not dying in single longbow autos in sPvP while they are in WvW (there have been screenshots by rangers of this happening), meanwhile also having no cover options to negate the damage while the ranegr can maintain lots more reset availability to maintain cooldown/ranged advantages than otherwise available in sPvP.

>

> The issue is as soon as we justify numbers based on using and abusing LoS we end up with the situation the ranger used to be in before the CDI some years ago, where it had little agency in a fight despite having the ability to deal substantial pressure, and thus the ranger's chance of a winning a fight was generally based on how poorly its opponent performed versus how well the ranger did.

>

> Currently the soulbeast thanks to its massively-inflated stats holds a bit too much agency when approaching a given fight, and its counters are largely dependent on it misplaying massively in order to retaliate with much of a chance to really do anything.

>

> I think soulbeast should be harder to play to justify this degree of agency - akin to how thief and mesmer are supposed to function - and even then, there is some degree of concern of those numbers. Even SA Deadeye is much harder to play, and by relative terms it's quite easy compared to most other professions/builds.

 

If we're talking about WvW, there are tons of posts about rangers whining in this forum about how nobody wants them in a zerg, Necromancers seem to be having the opposite problem, so maybe that's just a trade-off.

 

I'll give it to you that thief, in general, is tougher to get into than ranger to learn, but I don't feel like Deadeye is very tough especially since if things stop going your way, you can just dodge stealth. Power Mesmer takes a while to learn I hear, but I've played Condi Mirage, even without understanding or utilizing most of my skills I seemed to win most of my 1v1s.

 

The Profession is Ranger after all though, If it's not the most dangerous single target DPS at a distance with enough mobility to get it back into range, then it should be removed from the game.

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > Passive SoS should either be removed or put elsewhere. It's legitimately stupid to put it in such a low-priority trait slot in an offensive line. I think ANet wanted to make MMS desirable because it somewhat lacks power otherwise compared to skirmishing and WS on core/druid, but it really is just lazy and there should be more incentive to play MMS through active play.

> > > >

> > > > Sic 'Em is a problem, and the amount of free stats given by BM and pets are a problem when combined with things like extended damage immunity, high mobility, and extended unblockable attacks. BM+SB is basically permanent 20 might + fury + some extra damage and sustain without actually occupying might stacks or running the risk of being corrupted. It's a time-duration Pre-nerf-pre-nerf Assassin's Signet (yes, they nerfed it twice), which was game-shatteringly overpowered at launch and applied only to a single attack, had no extra benefits like revealed, and had a longer cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > The issue is that like many other things in the game, soulbeast has a bloated kit and needs to have a bloated kit because a number of specs released in PoF also have incredibly bloated kits... like FB, Holo, Mirage, and to some extent, Deadeye (though even Deadeye's main issues are more symptoms of previous bad design in thief paired with two relatively thoughtless abilities rather than actual problems with the DE itself).

> > > >

> > > > Ranger is particularly gross however just because of how safe it is. 1800 range attacks dealing an upwards of 7-10k damage (more with OWP) and its combo on an 8s cooldown dealing 50k+ damage in the span of a few seconds with a very high amount of mobility and at least one invuln (one of which is even passive), all on the same build, is not only just difficult to deal with, but frankly, extremely *easy* to play and do well with. It's strictly stronger than warrior has ever been, and by a very substantial margin at that, and frankly, miles easier.

> > > >

> > > > We need to see the game toned down because in all honesty it's just no fun anymore. Especially when going back to core game content and in the PvP modes. One of ANet's main pillars of GW2 was to never phase out old content as to keep it feeling fresh and good. It's why we have downscaled events and dungeons and so on. It's why the gear level was never increased. And yet, the fundamental aspect of playing the game - the classes - bring so much extra power they render any and all of their predecessor content - including their predecessor classes - not just bad, but unenjoyable to deal with because of how easy and mindless it is.

> > > >

> > > > When I go against a core game class with an elite spec at this point, I often feel I don't even need to think to beat them. That's not fun for me and it sure isn't fun for them. Soulbeast is the most egregious, followed by mirage and then holosmith.

> > > >

> > > > WD, Prelude Lash, and the rest are all pretty okay Honestly, Swoop is a great addition for players who want to play the kiting-focused mobile DPS which core ranger and druid otherwise fail to deliver on. But the prominent builds running around right now are really oppressive and feel like they have no counterplay when playing a build with a slight disadvantage or which do not have blatant and direct answers, and often times, when the soulbeast plays well, have their answers negated thanks to things like unbockable attack access, stealth denial, substantial cleave and CC, and so on all within easy grasp.

> > > >

> > > > Hell, I know a few ranger players who have even stopped playing the class because they stopped having fun with it largely being a free win in most matchups just *because* nothing really brings any real threat save condi mirage. But that's just OP vs OP...

> > >

> > > Really, I can't stop laughing ... when I see someone saying Soulbeast is OP, that he can do 50k damage from 1800 ranger etc ... Yes, he can, as Mesmer and Thief can too, not from 1800, but from 1500. The only BIG difference is that Mesmer and Thief can easily escape after that burst, and Ranger can't!

> > > A good player with a balanced build always will beat a Sniper Soulbeast. Please don't look only on Youtube video, and get from there the idea Berserker Sic'em Build is OP, because is not vs good players.

> >

> > DE does massively less damage than SB since the rework. DE just has fewer inherent tells, but standard rifle combo is basically the same thing as PBS+RF. Literally the only thing keeping DE oppressive is SScope and SA interactions. DJ is garbage and people who die to it either got massively outplayed or suck/aren't paying attention. Mirage can't even dream of the burst damage SB brings; it's 100-0 is just able to get an unsuspecting foe and nothing more.

> >

> > I'd love for you to enlighten me on this math of yours about thief burst, especially. It's not like I'm an authority on burst thief or anything. Not like I've mained the maximum-possible burst damage thief build for the past six and a half years. /s

> >

> > And to say ranger can't escape. Are you kidding me? Bird? Arctic Wolf? GS3? Free 1000+ range mobility on such low cooldowns is bad escape? Again, the only class in the game rocking that kind of mobility without major cost is Mirage. Even thief using shortbow struggles to keep up with that much burst disengage while maintaining some semblance of fuel in the tank.

> >

> > Honestly, I'm pretty sure the issue is more that you've never played the other classes more than anything. Hell, there have been a number of new thieves who mained ranger previously claiming S/D was crazy strong in the past who have come to the boards asking for help on how to deal with anything because they feel totally useless compared to their soulbeast, to slowly realize they learned the game on a training wheels class/build.

> >

> > What's crazy is I even justified why the SB's kit is wildly overloaded in my post - and how it needs to be - by agreeing with you that these other specs are broken on their design levels which makes for exploitable play with limited weaknesses when played competently. The issue is that SB is broken in numbers which makes it super strong when played by anyone at all. And at the moment it's a bit excessive.

> >

> > My criticism is that soulbeast is incredibly easy to achieve such high success with and how its damage is so easy to achieve without much cost to its efficacy on other scenarios. It has an answer to nearly everywhere in some aspect of its kits without much investment required to actually get it. Even if it doesn't have the best disengage in the game, it still has better disengage than 90% of the game. Even if it didn't have the best sustain in the game (P.S., as far as full glass builds go, it does, objectively), it still can tank better than 80% of what's out there. Even without the most ranged damage (which it also has), it still gets massively safe engages with next to no opportunity cost. You don't actually need to be even remotely good to pose a massive threat in smallscale when playing one. That's my point.

> >

> > And if the build I'm referencing is so bad and so insignificant as you claim - which nearly every soulbeast I've encountered in WvW runs (which is around half the overall roaming population today or more I'd say) - then these nerfs will have no impact on the real "good" rangers and just hit the noobs who press three buttons and automatically kill anyone not running an invuln. So... how does this impact ranger skill expression or viability then? According to your logic, it doesn't.

> >

> > When I go into WvW, if I want things to die and not need to think very much, I play my soulbeast in exotic gear. Despite the fact that I've only put maybe 400 hours in ranger, and despite the fact that I have almost fifteen times the play time and thousands of gold into gear and tons of math to optimize my thief, it's just easy, and generally, just stronger.

> >

> > **Say what you will, but this spec overperforms. OP went too far, but the spirit of the post - soulbeast having ridiculously overtuned numbers and a very easy play pattern to get solid results from - aren't untrue in the slightest.**

> The spirit of the post?

>

> The op compared a bunch of skills that practically no one uses. /golfclap

>

> And he made this one claim at the end "The soulbeast is the most overpowered thing to ever exist in the entirety on Guild Wars 2. More overpowered than a scourge combined with preHoT cele ele combined with prePoF chronomancer. How is this allowed?"

>

>

> He didn't make a reasonable claim that soulbeast is overtuned or even a 'RIDICULOUSLY overtuned' claim like you did.

>

>

> He said Soulbeasts are more op than a scourge combined with a prehot cele ele combined with a pre pof chronomancer.

>

> I got 2 questions for you,

>

> Why is the thief expert on the Ranger forums?

>

> Do rangers underperform or do all thief specs (other than DE) underperform?

 

The spirit of the OP's post is how soulbeast has absolutely asinine amounts of burst damage. And it does. I already disagreed with a good portion of the specifics of what the OP said, so I don't really know what you're looking for from me - I think it's fine to have burst damage when there's a big risk factor involved in doing so. Objectively speaking, when you look at cooldowns, skill activation requirements, resource costs and inesvtment/buildup, counters, and so on, the soulbeast has the lowest-risk access to burst damage in the highest quantity of all professions in the entire game across nearly every tier of play. And as I've said over the years, burst damage is the only kind of damage that matters in the PvP modes.

 

Again, my criticism is how easy it is to play rather than any given numbers.

 

Why am I here? Because I pretty much quit thief to play soulbeast lol. It's just way more effective in every single area - and I don't even run any immunity effects at all - and to be honest, I'm bored playing it because when I win a fight - which is most of the time except into people who are playing safer builds or are just better than me at ranger - it feels EZ mode. I've already put in my two cents on Deadeye. I've already advocated for most of the nerfs and changes that have happened to thief over the years to make it require more skill and provide more reward. I play into rangers, particpated in the CDI for rangers with virtually every one of my suggestions having been implemented which turned them from dumpster-tier to fairly balanced. Unlike a lot of people, I legitimately care about the game's balance as a whole and don't put bias in my own class that I play. Hell, I wrote the deadeye elite spec proposal to be revealed-based because I knew what'd happen if they didn't,. But it's either soulbeast or mirage when you wanna fight small-scale, and mirage as we all know is already quite broken. I'd like to play my thief again. I'd like to play my reaper again. But it just isn't even remotely reasonable to do so with how dominant soulbeast is in particular.

 

As for soulbeasts/rangers not being taken in WvW, the reasoning behind it has little to do with ranger itself and mostly because of ow people play ranger and the longbow in particular. Ranger in 2013 was considered a solid class to take if played well thanks to Healing Spring and the need to blast waters. But most people kicked and didn't want to run with ranger pugs because despite the fact that huge damage from afar is great, in every meta since this game has started, reflects were and are spammed to keep the zerg alive. When you have ten people rail-gunning your own frontline thanks to reflects because they're tunneling on DPS which causes your frontline to instantly wipe and buffs your enemies, people don't want to run the risk.

 

Even a lot of changes with core ranger and soulbeast help offset this to make them not very flamable. Lots of unblockable access denies reflection, and if not for hammer rev dealing the bulk of its damage through non-projectiles and having such great projectile denial, I'm fairly certain soulbeast would be the optimal co-backline along with ele.

 

I made a name for myself on my server during past metas in T1 to a couple commanders when playing my thief well enough to help massively contribute to fights with spike damage on priority targets and simply just forcing a lot of cooldowns from the enemy zerg when going 1v30 for only a few seconds at a time and surviving. There was a short period of time when I co-commanded the main EBG blob back on TC prior to its collapse. Thief was just as meme-tier as ranger/druid was then. Play well enough and people will make exceptions because they know you're infinitely more skilled on the class you're damned good at than the simple and efficient supportive builds they put every noob who wants to play WvW on.

 

I'm here because I'm not really having fun anymore despite camping this class for it being so absurdly strong because it really is just downright too effective for how poorly I play it, and because this class also saps any enjoyment I get playing anything but really cheesy and boring builds on the classes I enjoy most because they can only cope with soulbeast by running cheesy and un-fun builds.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

> > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > Passive SoS should either be removed or put elsewhere. It's legitimately stupid to put it in such a low-priority trait slot in an offensive line. I think ANet wanted to make MMS desirable because it somewhat lacks power otherwise compared to skirmishing and WS on core/druid, but it really is just lazy and there should be more incentive to play MMS through active play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sic 'Em is a problem, and the amount of free stats given by BM and pets are a problem when combined with things like extended damage immunity, high mobility, and extended unblockable attacks. BM+SB is basically permanent 20 might + fury + some extra damage and sustain without actually occupying might stacks or running the risk of being corrupted. It's a time-duration Pre-nerf-pre-nerf Assassin's Signet (yes, they nerfed it twice), which was game-shatteringly overpowered at launch and applied only to a single attack, had no extra benefits like revealed, and had a longer cooldown.

> > > > >

> > > > > The issue is that like many other things in the game, soulbeast has a bloated kit and needs to have a bloated kit because a number of specs released in PoF also have incredibly bloated kits... like FB, Holo, Mirage, and to some extent, Deadeye (though even Deadeye's main issues are more symptoms of previous bad design in thief paired with two relatively thoughtless abilities rather than actual problems with the DE itself).

> > > > >

> > > > > Ranger is particularly gross however just because of how safe it is. 1800 range attacks dealing an upwards of 7-10k damage (more with OWP) and its combo on an 8s cooldown dealing 50k+ damage in the span of a few seconds with a very high amount of mobility and at least one invuln (one of which is even passive), all on the same build, is not only just difficult to deal with, but frankly, extremely *easy* to play and do well with. It's strictly stronger than warrior has ever been, and by a very substantial margin at that, and frankly, miles easier.

> > > > >

> > > > > We need to see the game toned down because in all honesty it's just no fun anymore. Especially when going back to core game content and in the PvP modes. One of ANet's main pillars of GW2 was to never phase out old content as to keep it feeling fresh and good. It's why we have downscaled events and dungeons and so on. It's why the gear level was never increased. And yet, the fundamental aspect of playing the game - the classes - bring so much extra power they render any and all of their predecessor content - including their predecessor classes - not just bad, but unenjoyable to deal with because of how easy and mindless it is.

> > > > >

> > > > > When I go against a core game class with an elite spec at this point, I often feel I don't even need to think to beat them. That's not fun for me and it sure isn't fun for them. Soulbeast is the most egregious, followed by mirage and then holosmith.

> > > > >

> > > > > WD, Prelude Lash, and the rest are all pretty okay Honestly, Swoop is a great addition for players who want to play the kiting-focused mobile DPS which core ranger and druid otherwise fail to deliver on. But the prominent builds running around right now are really oppressive and feel like they have no counterplay when playing a build with a slight disadvantage or which do not have blatant and direct answers, and often times, when the soulbeast plays well, have their answers negated thanks to things like unbockable attack access, stealth denial, substantial cleave and CC, and so on all within easy grasp.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hell, I know a few ranger players who have even stopped playing the class because they stopped having fun with it largely being a free win in most matchups just *because* nothing really brings any real threat save condi mirage. But that's just OP vs OP...

> > > >

> > > > Really, I can't stop laughing ... when I see someone saying Soulbeast is OP, that he can do 50k damage from 1800 ranger etc ... Yes, he can, as Mesmer and Thief can too, not from 1800, but from 1500. The only BIG difference is that Mesmer and Thief can easily escape after that burst, and Ranger can't!

> > > > A good player with a balanced build always will beat a Sniper Soulbeast. Please don't look only on Youtube video, and get from there the idea Berserker Sic'em Build is OP, because is not vs good players.

> > >

> > > DE does massively less damage than SB since the rework. DE just has fewer inherent tells, but standard rifle combo is basically the same thing as PBS+RF. Literally the only thing keeping DE oppressive is SScope and SA interactions. DJ is garbage and people who die to it either got massively outplayed or suck/aren't paying attention. Mirage can't even dream of the burst damage SB brings; it's 100-0 is just able to get an unsuspecting foe and nothing more.

> > >

> > > I'd love for you to enlighten me on this math of yours about thief burst, especially. It's not like I'm an authority on burst thief or anything. Not like I've mained the maximum-possible burst damage thief build for the past six and a half years. /s

> > >

> > > And to say ranger can't escape. Are you kidding me? Bird? Arctic Wolf? GS3? Free 1000+ range mobility on such low cooldowns is bad escape? Again, the only class in the game rocking that kind of mobility without major cost is Mirage. Even thief using shortbow struggles to keep up with that much burst disengage while maintaining some semblance of fuel in the tank.

> > >

> > > Honestly, I'm pretty sure the issue is more that you've never played the other classes more than anything. Hell, there have been a number of new thieves who mained ranger previously claiming S/D was crazy strong in the past who have come to the boards asking for help on how to deal with anything because they feel totally useless compared to their soulbeast, to slowly realize they learned the game on a training wheels class/build.

> > >

> > > What's crazy is I even justified why the SB's kit is wildly overloaded in my post - and how it needs to be - by agreeing with you that these other specs are broken on their design levels which makes for exploitable play with limited weaknesses when played competently. The issue is that SB is broken in numbers which makes it super strong when played by anyone at all. And at the moment it's a bit excessive.

> > >

> > > My criticism is that soulbeast is incredibly easy to achieve such high success with and how its damage is so easy to achieve without much cost to its efficacy on other scenarios. It has an answer to nearly everywhere in some aspect of its kits without much investment required to actually get it. Even if it doesn't have the best disengage in the game, it still has better disengage than 90% of the game. Even if it didn't have the best sustain in the game (P.S., as far as full glass builds go, it does, objectively), it still can tank better than 80% of what's out there. Even without the most ranged damage (which it also has), it still gets massively safe engages with next to no opportunity cost. You don't actually need to be even remotely good to pose a massive threat in smallscale when playing one. That's my point.

> > >

> > > And if the build I'm referencing is so bad and so insignificant as you claim - which nearly every soulbeast I've encountered in WvW runs (which is around half the overall roaming population today or more I'd say) - then these nerfs will have no impact on the real "good" rangers and just hit the noobs who press three buttons and automatically kill anyone not running an invuln. So... how does this impact ranger skill expression or viability then? According to your logic, it doesn't.

> > >

> > > When I go into WvW, if I want things to die and not need to think very much, I play my soulbeast in exotic gear. Despite the fact that I've only put maybe 400 hours in ranger, and despite the fact that I have almost fifteen times the play time and thousands of gold into gear and tons of math to optimize my thief, it's just easy, and generally, just stronger.

> > >

> > > **Say what you will, but this spec overperforms. OP went too far, but the spirit of the post - soulbeast having ridiculously overtuned numbers and a very easy play pattern to get solid results from - aren't untrue in the slightest.**

> > The spirit of the post?

> >

> > The op compared a bunch of skills that practically no one uses. /golfclap

> >

> > And he made this one claim at the end "The soulbeast is the most overpowered thing to ever exist in the entirety on Guild Wars 2. More overpowered than a scourge combined with preHoT cele ele combined with prePoF chronomancer. How is this allowed?"

> >

> >

> > He didn't make a reasonable claim that soulbeast is overtuned or even a 'RIDICULOUSLY overtuned' claim like you did.

> >

> >

> > He said Soulbeasts are more op than a scourge combined with a prehot cele ele combined with a pre pof chronomancer.

> >

> > I got 2 questions for you,

> >

> > Why is the thief expert on the Ranger forums?

> >

> > Do rangers underperform or do all thief specs (other than DE) underperform?

>

> The spirit of the OP's post is how soulbeast has absolutely asinine amounts of burst damage. And it does. I already disagreed with a good portion of the specifics of what the OP said, so I don't really know what you're looking for from me - I think it's fine to have burst damage when there's a big risk factor involved in doing so. Objectively speaking, when you look at cooldowns, skill activation requirements, resource costs and inesvtment/buildup, counters, and so on, the soulbeast has the lowest-risk access to burst damage in the highest quantity of all professions in the entire game across nearly every tier of play. And as I've said over the years, burst damage is the only kind of damage that matters in the PvP modes.

>

> Again, my criticism is how easy it is to play rather than any given numbers.

>

> Why am I here? Because I pretty much quit thief to play soulbeast lol. It's just way more effective in every single area - and I don't even run any immunity effects at all - and to be honest, I'm bored playing it because when I win a fight - which is most of the time except into people who are playing safer builds or are just better than me at ranger - it feels EZ mode. I've already put in my two cents on Deadeye. I've already advocated for most of the nerfs and changes that have happened to thief over the years to make it require more skill and provide more reward. I play into rangers, particpated in the CDI for rangers with virtually every one of my suggestions having been implemented which turned them from dumpster-tier to fairly balanced. Unlike a lot of people, I legitimately care about the game's balance as a whole and don't put bias in my own class that I play. Hell, I wrote the deadeye elite spec proposal to be revealed-based because I knew what'd happen if they didn't,. But it's either soulbeast or mirage when you wanna fight small-scale, and mirage as we all know is already quite broken. I'd like to play my thief again. I'd like to play my reaper again. But it just isn't even remotely reasonable to do so with how dominant soulbeast is in particular.

>

> As for soulbeasts/rangers not being taken in WvW, the reasoning behind it has little to do with ranger itself and mostly because of ow people play ranger and the longbow in particular. Ranger in 2013 was considered a solid class to take if played well thanks to Healing Spring and the need to blast waters. But most people kicked and didn't want to run with ranger pugs because despite the fact that huge damage from afar is great, in every meta since this game has started, reflects were and are spammed to keep the zerg alive. When you have ten people rail-gunning your own frontline thanks to reflects because they're tunneling on DPS which causes your frontline to instantly wipe and buffs your enemies, people don't want to run the risk.

>

> Even a lot of changes with core ranger and soulbeast help offset this to make them not very flamable. Lots of unblockable access denies reflection, and if not for hammer rev dealing the bulk of its damage through non-projectiles and having such great projectile denial, I'm fairly certain soulbeast would be the optimal co-backline along with ele.

>

> I made a name for myself on my server during past metas in T1 to a couple commanders when playing my thief well enough to help massively contribute to fights with spike damage on priority targets and simply just forcing a lot of cooldowns from the enemy zerg when going 1v30 for only a few seconds at a time and surviving. There was a short period of time when I co-commanded the main EBG blob back on TC prior to its collapse. Thief was just as meme-tier as ranger/druid was then. Play well enough and people will make exceptions because they know you're infinitely more skilled on the class you're damned good at than the simple and efficient supportive builds they put every noob who wants to play WvW on.

>

> I'm here because I'm not really having fun anymore despite camping this class for it being so absurdly strong because it really is just downright too effective for how poorly I play it, and because this class also saps any enjoyment I get playing anything but really cheesy and boring builds on the classes I enjoy most because they can only cope with soulbeast by running cheesy and un-fun builds.

 

That's right, there are ranger builds that do a lot of damage... Just like there are other profession builds that do a lot of damage, but let's just blame ranger for all our woes!

 

Or better yet, let's think of something more rational as opposed to all the QQ about any particular profession shall we? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-would-be-a-healthy-change

 

 

Omgosh! Ranger mobility QQ because some main professions that don't have access to as many movement or positioning skills... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

 

Seriously peeps, some of you need to spend less time complaining, and more time thinking of logical solutions.

 

edit- oh those silly rangers with their pesky perma-stealth backstab builds that we have dealt with for 6 years and counting... yeah those rangers I tell ya...

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> 30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

>

> Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

>

> Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

 

Look! Even more brainless and easy ranger burst gameplay as proof ranger OP!

 

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> hi WvW vid up with my new high burst power chrono build Quickow. Pls read the vid description/ pinned comment as always! Hope you can enjoy:

>

 

And what is your solution to all these obvious ranger problems? This? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64855/please-do-something-about-might-on-dodge-endurance-regeneration-food

 

You are not paying attention, like at all Deceiver. You're coming across in a hypocritical way, and as if you are not capable of looking at things objectively. You are way out of touch with this game and what it needs, and have fallen into the "I lost to X so nerf X" trap... just like 75% of the posters in certain sections of the forums. You'd be a better force for change if you took a step back and actually thought about improvements to the game.

 

 

Edit 2- Meanwhile, for CU...

 

Q: "Michael (AdorianBlade) asked: What is your target for time to kill, while I know this varies by class comparisons as you are going for hard counters I was wondering if you had a ballpark figure. Personally I would like to see something longer as opposed to shorter."

 

Dev A: "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."

 

AND

 

"Stealth is made of several mechanics that the allow players to hide or sneak up on opposing players. These mechanics were funded by the Stealth Unchained Stretch Goal. The primary trios that utilize these mechanics are the . All classes can make use of some of these mechanics, but the Archers, Scouts and Stealthers specialize in using them. Though stealth and trios that heavily utilize it might or might not be usable immediately at launch, depending on circumstances, anyway they will be in the game as soon as possible. "

 

"The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:

Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.

Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.

Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.

Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.

Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.

Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible."

 

Start thinking differently and looking at the bigger pictures my friend, because there are large design issues at play... that have nothing to do with ranger... or any other profession for that matter.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

 

What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

 

- Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.

- Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.

- Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.

- Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).

- Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.

- Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).

- Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).

- Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.

- Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.

- Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.

- Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.

- Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

 

 

Then we'd go from there.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

> MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

>

> What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

> Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

>

> - Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.

> - Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.

> - Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.

> - Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).

> - Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.

> - Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).

> - Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).

> - Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.

> - Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.

> - Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.

> - Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.

> - Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

>

>

> Then we'd go from there.

 

And here I gave the benefit of the doubt that you could break that cyclical pattern of thinking.