nativity.3057 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"nativity.3057" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"nativity.3057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally a solution to all balance problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another knee jerk reaction... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core. > > > > > > > > > > Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good. > > > > > > > > > Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc. > > > > > > > > > I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too? > > > > > > > > > > > > It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to. > > > > > > > > > > 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the _entire_ specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > > > > > > > Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage? > > > > > > It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible. > > > > **First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face.** > > > > **Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways.** > > > > Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to **ruin your precious mirage** if you take a strike while stepping out. > > > > Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does. > > > > Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off. > > > > Even so, it still takes that extra fraction of a second of human reaction and input time to accomplish comparable movement. > > You do raise some clear advantages to MC though. And yes, my mirage is very "precious". :smile: I was going to respond as well, but Crinn puts it nicely. The benefits of Mirage Cloak outweigh the benefits of a movement dodge. Additionally, there are very few reasons to dodge backwards. But I guess that can be a personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Portal Smiter's Booned It's ok, replace itt with another Target-Break or combat focused utility, and find a new equally powerful role. This nerf is felt only where Portal is being min-maxed, IE: highly coordinated PvP (non-existent). > Illusionary Defense dropped by 66% It's ok, Master of Manipulation reduces the cooldown on Blink and Arcane Thievery, and throws in some 2s Mirrors to add to those 2s Mirrors you get on successful evade with 1.5s ICD from dueling. It certainly helps generate very significant projectile reflect uptime instead of stacking damage reduction. > Elusive Mind has 6 seconds of exhaustion It's ok, there's Infinite Horizon. Easily a sleeper-trait where your clones can carry your damage with Ambushes while you play defensively. > Confounding Suggestions no longer stuns, It's ok, you can always use the META build that never used this. > Torch 4+5 heavily nerfed in damage. It's ok, every class had their burning nerfed in the same way, including classes that were way less good. (Ele, Engi, Guard) > Jaunt repeatedly nerfed in every aspect, Bountiful Disillusionment, Critical Infusion and Nomad's Endurance This was one series of small nerfs that Mesmers are forced to eat, without simply swapping in other good options. Bravo ArenaNet. In my opinion, other classes were forced to eat just as many, if not more nerfs to their performance than Mesmers. The main point I want to drive home is that a classes' traits can be nerfed until one's blue in the face, but if there are already viable alternatives in place, that class doesn't perform worse, you're just shuffling the meta traits. It's like when they nerfed Holo's Exceed skills a half dozen ways, they had a bunch of viable Elixir Skills ready to go and were stronger than ever... understand? In my opinion, if we're going to shuffle the meta traits around, I'd much prefer for Mirage to be less invulnerable and visual clutter. Forcing players into Infinite Horizon, Chaos & staff (ugh), I'd much rather see a higher risk high reward roaming Mirage. The current Mirage meta build is toxic gameplay - it's like Mesmer became part Minionmancer or Turret Engi. This is why players hate facing it. Mirage overall is over-represented in queues, and players hate facing target breaks & never being able to trade blows and brawl with it. My 2c'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Personally I'm not expecting any real change for a very long time. The fact that the balance team actually thought giving mes a 50 second passive invuln reset would be a good idea really shows their complete disconnect from the player base. They either don't know what's wrong with it or don't care or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"nativity.3057" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"nativity.3057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally a solution to all balance problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another knee jerk reaction... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core. > > > > > > > > > > > Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't invalidate that de has 2 mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By giving mirage cloak a cosmetic only approach you're actually crippling mirage, like here take this worse dodge but hey it looks good. > > > > > > > > > > Before you say it, ambushs apart from axe and sword which are indeed good, are just fillers. Plus axe 2 was drawn in a way that you need to use it with mc. By making mc cosmetic only you'd have to give an evade to axe 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for EM, it doesn't need a revert, it needs a redesign, there were several good ideas flying around, like 20% cdr on deception, cleanse a condi and a soft cc. > > > > > > > > > > I know some people want to tie dodge while stunned to it. It's a bad idea, dodge while stunned needs simply to go. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since when are major traits class mechanics? Just because it is an on dodge effect that doesn't necessarily make it a class mechanic. By that logic, evasive arcana on ele's arcane spec is a class mecahnic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't mirage cloak a dodge effect too? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's 2 dodge effects (attack while dodging, longer duration) packaged into one. The reason why this is generally considered to be a class mechanic is because it is a core part of the spec that every mirage gets regardless of their trait choices. A DE has to give up the other master major trait choices to get stealth dodge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Mirage is not the only elite spec that gets 2 class mechanics. Technically weaver does too. However, as the pleb class that it is, ele gets drawbacks attached to its mechanics. Weavers have reduced cds on their attunements, but the drawback is that all attunements go on cd while swapping instead of only the last attunement you used. Weavers also get access to dual skills, but the drawback is that you lose access to your #3 skills unless single attuning, and you get delayed access to the #4 and #5 skills of the attunement you just swapped to. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the _entire_ specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't superspeed on dodge baseline for mirage? > > > > > > > > It is but it doesn't account for your need to get out of danger in any direction other than forward. If you need to about face, or go any direction other than forward you're wasting evade frames just to turn even if you use about face to turn as quickly as possible. > > > > > > First off, There is literally a keybind for performing a instant about face. > > > > > > Secondly, if you use your mouse to navigate you can rotate your character almost instantly anyways. > > > > > > Third, the lack of a movement component is not a drawback in PvP in any way. There are very few ground effect cleave skills in this game that last longer than 1s and the ones that do have very little damage per single strike so it's not going to ruin your precious mirage if you take a strike while stepping out. > > > > > > Fourth, the lack of a movement component is one of the biggest benefits of mCloak because it means that mCloak doesn't interrupt revive, stomp, or skill casts in the way that a regular animation does. > > > > > > Fifth, the lack of a movement component means that mirage can dodge while on a narrow ledge or jumping puzzle without falling off. > > > > > > > Did you play demo weekend mirage? No? Okay then. > > Demo weekend mirage was fine Said literally no one who played mirage during the demo weekend except casual open world PvEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 high risk, high reward low risk, low reward this is how it should be. Since neither thieves nor mesmers take any risks at all, they must not do any damage. So by all means, be a perma-evade-clone-spamming-invul-ball of fuzz. If every single one of your attacks amount to nothing but 10hp damage and a bit of endurance reduction on your targets. Everything else is unbalanced. It is really that simple. Instead we got thieves and mesmers: no risk, high reward And ANET, thief and mesmer players are surprised that people are fed up with this mess? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > Having read through every comment, we're all over the place with solutions to the "condi mirage problem". If we were to take them as a whole, the spec would literally be deleted (some make no secret that is what they actually want). > > On the one hand you have those who say the only problem is output: > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > Condi mirage has to much output and that is the problem. > > > > Mirage's defensive options are on par with the rest of the cast. Different sure, but much like how warrior has a sturdy body, ele can keep rotation and safely heal up, DD having access to more dodge than anything in game, and DE's endless stealth; mirage has it's own quirks. > >... > > Please dispel the notion of the defensive options being the issue, I have had 0 issue landing hits (and by extension killing) mirages on soul beast, pick your flavor of thief, guard, and somewhat holo (I'm pretty bad at holo tbh but I can still go 40/60 with high plat and legend), and can get the cap then contest them on point without problems on weaver. > > > > Yes you need to actively play around their options but that is the case for anything vs anyone who knows what they are doing. > > > > Tip: Sometimes combat comes down to reads and anticipation, this is especially true when fighting mesmers, thieves, and any opponent who makes good use of block or counter skills. I suggest everyone develop a good Seme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(martial_arts) . This will help you improve in almost any action based PvP game. > > On the other, you have the frequent complaints that mirage is an untouchable, unkillable, ez-mode, brain dead, god-spec, rife with too much evade, invuln, stealth, detarget, mobility, etc. (See any mesmer complaint thread as well as many posts here.) > > I think targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense: > > **Offense:** > > * Minimize direct damage on axe, torch, scepter, and staff so condi builds really only output condi. > * Shave condi application so condi damage is ramped rather than burst. Possibly add an ICD on Ambush attacks, but in exchange leave Mirage Cloak alone, except as stated below. Ideally, cut back the excessive cleanse and resistance in the game to compensate, which might even enable additional viable condi specs. > * Maybe this is out there and has issues, but: Rework clones so they don't pile conditions via auto-attacks, but instead apply a couple stacks to opponents who kill them (to punish them for falling for the fake and encourage developing the most important skill for fighting mesmers: identifying the real mesmer--which isn't as difficult as people think.) Outside of shatters and ambushes, clones do almost no damage and truly exist to facilitate the mesmer's deceptive play style. So no more complaining about clone spam. > > **Defense:** With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others. > > Generally, I think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery in keeping with its theme. It should duel by craftily outplaying opponents, wearing them down with DOT (particularly the self-inflicted kind from torment and confusion for thematic reasons), and fill less of a burst DPS role. Kind of like a tankier but less damaging thief that hides among what opponents see rather than what they don't. Would that satisfy (most) everyone? I could go for this. Allows for reasonable counterplay while not absolutely destroying the e-spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > high risk, high reward > low risk, low reward > > this is how it should be. > > Since neither thieves nor mesmers take any risks at all, they must not do any damage. > > So by all means, be a perma-evade-clone-spamming-invul-ball of fuzz. If every single one of your attacks amount to nothing but 10hp damage and a bit of endurance reduction on your targets. > > Everything else is unbalanced. > > It is really that simple. > > Instead we got thieves and mesmers: no risk, high reward > > And ANET, thief and mesmer players are surprised that people are fed up with this mess? Seriously? By thieves u mean DE only and by damage u mean perma stealth back stab I hope cuz if u feel core/DD thieves are doing to much damage these days u really don’t have any comprehension of the game and should stop posting crap. Most theif players use DE cuz it’s only thief spec that stand a chance in a strait fight and even it doesn’t and needs to resort to perma stealth backstab cheese. U say no risk because they can reset lol why do the reset,oh that’s right cuz the get downed in one or two hits,other classes don’t need zerk gear to two shot a thief. So if they can’t reset their dead, but let me gues that’s all good with u right? As long as u get the kill. If u get bursted by a core or DD regularly u deff need to improve lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Sry just gets anoying always seeming post about thieves in general being low risk high reward when in two of the three specs is the opisite or thief wouldn’t be known as the harder class to pvp with,and has been for long time,only since DE cheese has that changed but people talk about thieves like they do this magical crazy damage because the get one shot by a DE back stab. People that actually play core and don’t enjoy cheesy mechanics like perma stealth hit like garbage these days and have to constantly read how thier class damage is too high lol meanwhile the hit with sword or staff and barely make a dent in opponents hp and get hit once and has to reset cuz it’s almost dead,then it’s resetting is complained about,it’s ridiculous.not every thief plays deadeye and thief state isn’t dependant on one spec. Holo is deff over performing right now but I’d never say engineers are because Core Engi isn’t great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Godrik.5841 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 So far what i experienced with mirages is yes in the right hands they are very oppressive. With that being said, so what, you can still win the match by playing smartly. Some mirages i just obliterate and sometimes they just absolutely destroy me. But sometimes other classes like scourge, deadeye, soulbeast, and firebrand do the same and doesn't warrant a nerf because i got rekt. Again this is my personal encounters in platinum 1 and opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incisorr.9502 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @""UfoCoffee.2084" said: I'm aware of this. I said **proper** nerf. Whilst they have been nerfed, so have other classes. Mirage is still stupidly OP after these nerfs. I want a proper nerf to bring them to the same level as everyone else. As i said before unless you're high plat or leg then i'm not going to listen to you if you say they're fine as all good players agree they are. oh good I've been the highest rated mirage for the last 2 seasons (except the last 2 weeks of the last season cus i was playing another game and i did spam games regularly and didn't cheese out elo so there were times at which there were people higher than me but it didn't last, and i also finished highest 2 seasons ago) and generally have consistently played with top 50 players here's some facts for you since you decided to ignore the first guy who actually made a lot of sense > there were more weavers in top 50 than mirages for half of that time period and weaver is the worst class in the game and yet it had as much representation in legendary elo as mirage did. > mirage was by far the least played class in top 50 throughout the entire time (im repeating myself but i want you to really get this in your head) > mAT winners stopped relying on mirage before portal was even nerfed and there were at least 2 months of winners w/o mirage in their comp. > there were no mirages in top 10, 2 two seasons ago and a single one last season who was a random bad player who isn't even a mirage main and i have no clue how he got in there but he isn't good enough to be there, but still there are 2-3x of some other classes > the #1 of last season was actually chrono and not mirage - he CHOSE not to play mirage because it's worse The nerfs hit mirage very hard and reworked some core mechanics and left a lot of openings, so much so that mirage's main role (which was side-node dueling) is no longer their main role Mirage loses to boon-beast and to chronomancer(supposedly) and doesn't have portal any more (not a worth taking portal). Mirage's whole identity has been changed and this game has four roles ( DPS - teamfight carry and dmg but low defense, ganker - roamin/+1ing , duelist - side node 1v1s and stalling vs 2+, support - healing/buffing) mirage isn't the best duelist any more which means there's no point taking one as duelist as it simply loses mirage isn't the best ganker as the other gankers atm are insanely strong (and by far the best classes in the game atm) which would be revenant, thief, core guard mirage isn't a support mirage's only role left is DPS/ team fighter which is technically the necro role, which ironically i've been playing way before the nerfs even forced mirage to change to this role The dps mirage role isn't the same as the duelist mirage role, it has no boons and it has clear counters and it requires way more skill than the duelist one as you have to manage way more things and be way more active with it and yes it is way more rewarding as well if everything goes well, imo its just an alternative version of necro that has different strengths and different weaknesses but it isn't omni-potent and is very punishable most good players actually agree that mirage isn't that good and some of the ones that don't are saying that out of spite or simply aren't good/ high elo and don't understand the classes but in general the play-rate speaks for itself anyway.. and you have to consider external factors like fun, mirage is probably the most fun class in the game (can hit while dodging, can teleport, can stealth, high mobility, potentially high dmg and mixed at that, okay sustain compared to some other classes and it requires you to keep track of a lot of things which makes the gameplay engaging and fun) and it still has a low play-rate and here i will remind you again that mirage is a very wide term and the builds can vary a lot, staff mirage and no-staff mirage are completely different. Staff plays itself a lot (due to boons and due to bouncing illusion damage which adds up) while other builds are harder to play and can be punished more but are also more rewarding , potentially. Staff mirage lacks dmg, can be kited, loses to other similar roles - those are its flaws, it doesn't have press-on hard dmg and anyone that isn't a monkey can disengage until help is there No-Staff mirage is squishy, has stamina issues (since it must be used offensively as well), can be ganked or outsustained the entire concept of " mirage " is to be like a mirage, like its there but its not there , you want them to rework the entire concept which is an opinion but not a valid argument on why the class is strong. It's annoying but that's the point of a mirage? imagine being in the desert and dying out of thirst and then you see a mirage and then its not real and like the concept of the mirage is to annoy/troll you even and that's also the concept of the mesmer. If you rework the core mechanics it won't be mirage any more and at that point might as well delete the spec, but also delete a bunch of other specs cus i don't like them. The whole point of a mirage is to be persistent and hard to catch, which means defense, and its offense is already conditional so it doesn't always work, hence the word condition mirage is a different approach to mesmer than the other 2 specs and it's healthy for the class and it's already been nerfed in literally every single way possible, every condition was nerfed (confusion was reworked), their stacks and their damage were reduced, the vigor uptime was nerfed and the defense was nerfed in general, the physical damage of mirage was nerfed as well, the cooldowns were nerfed, the ultimate was nerfed asking for nerfs on a class that isn't even top 3 best class atm is just unreasonable. It was overpowered more than half a year ago but those times are long gone, mirage isn't as oppressive on high elo as some other classes are and generally on high elo gankers are a lot more influential but it still depends Mirage is also one of the only two condi builds that can still work in this game cause all other condi builds are garbage and you have 9:1 power: condi ratio which is lame and condi players are pretty much forced to pick mirage or scourge and anet doesn't do anything about other condi specs which are vastly outperformed by power specs both in sPvP and WvW due to many reasons but one of them being that condi removal is mostly shared between teammates while healing rarely is , and you can also heal condi dmg so it isnt even an argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 @"incisorr.9502" : To be fair, since last balance patch (the one with portal nerf.), I saw more mirage in PvP than before. Probably because of other class changes and because no portal = better fighter. It's decorrelate to the fact that mirage have counters and that there is other cheesy class/mecanics but for me there is **many** mirage in PvP Atm (even if half get 2 shoted.) and I play at the same mmr as you. Again I did a general mesmer balance suggestion who get moved on mesmer subforum who solve many issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incisorr.9502 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"incisorr.9502" : > To be fair, since last balance patch (the one with portal nerf.), I saw more mirage in PvP than before. > Probably because of other class changes and because no portal = better fighter. > > It's decorrelate to the fact that mirage have counters and that there is other cheesy class/mecanics but for me there is **many** mirage in PvP Atm (even if half get 2 shoted.) and I play at the same mmr as you. > there was a surge of mirage players after the portal nerf but i don't think it's still there it's still the same few active mirage players and occasionally some randoms that don't do anything cus the class isn't as easy as people try to make it sound when fighting experienced people i don't think there are that many mirages right now , maybe you just had such queues. I saw as many chronos as mirages ,if anything. i watched a bunch of jawgeous's mirage rant on youtube and he doesnt even know basic stuff about mirage skills so that was funny apparently axes of symmetry alone can do 20 condi stacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"incisorr.9502" : > > To be fair, since last balance patch (the one with portal nerf.), I saw more mirage in PvP than before. > > Probably because of other class changes and because no portal = better fighter. > > > > It's decorrelate to the fact that mirage have counters and that there is other cheesy class/mecanics but for me there is **many** mirage in PvP Atm (even if half get 2 shoted.) and I play at the same mmr as you. > > > > there was a surge of mirage players after the portal nerf but i don't think it's still there > it's still the same few active mirage players and occasionally some randoms that don't do anything cus the class isn't as easy as people try to make it sound when fighting experienced people > > i don't think there are that many mirages right now , maybe you just had such queues. I saw as many chronos as mirages ,if anything. > > > i watched a bunch of jawgeous's mirage rant on youtube and he doesnt even know basic stuff about mirage skills so that was funny > > apparently axes of symmetry alone can do 20 condi stacks Jawgeous clearly ate a few Axes of Symmetry comboed with Cry of Frustrations at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"incisorr.9502" : > > > To be fair, since last balance patch (the one with portal nerf.), I saw more mirage in PvP than before. > > > Probably because of other class changes and because no portal = better fighter. > > > > > > It's decorrelate to the fact that mirage have counters and that there is other cheesy class/mecanics but for me there is **many** mirage in PvP Atm (even if half get 2 shoted.) and I play at the same mmr as you. > > > > > > > there was a surge of mirage players after the portal nerf but i don't think it's still there > > it's still the same few active mirage players and occasionally some randoms that don't do anything cus the class isn't as easy as people try to make it sound when fighting experienced people > > > > i don't think there are that many mirages right now , maybe you just had such queues. I saw as many chronos as mirages ,if anything. > > > > > > i watched a bunch of jawgeous's mirage rant on youtube and he doesnt even know basic stuff about mirage skills so that was funny > > > > apparently axes of symmetry alone can do 20 condi stacks > > Jawgeous clearly ate a few Axes of Symmetry comboed with Cry of Frustrations at the same time. He also thinks running away and around the point is sustain :I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > **mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign**. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved Many of thief main including mesmer main during Gw2 beta to its early release suggested this to Anet foreseeing thief and mesmer toxicity sabotaging the balance of the game. 6 years later, what have they done to the stability of the game? Sweeping their toxicity throughout the game and wrecking havoc of their toxic influence to the professions including present and new players players Their toxic influence has not only pushed away new and present players alike from playing this game but has left a horrific impact in their experience to tell others including their friends (social media) to stay away from this game. That Toxicity has run rampant throughout the game and is promoted, supported and distributed throughout the game. It has become a norm-throughout the years...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > > **mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign**. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved > > Many of thief main including mesmer main during Gw2 beta to its early release suggested this to Anet foreseeing thief and mesmer toxicity sabotaging the balance of the game. > > 6 years later, what have they done to the stability of the game? Sweeping their toxicity throughout the game and wrecking havoc of their toxic influence to the professions including present and new players players > > Their toxic influence has not only pushed away new and present players alike from playing this game but has left a horrific impact in their experience to tell others including their friends (social media) to stay away from this game. > > That Toxicity has run rampant throughout the game and is promoted, supported and distributed throughout the game. It has become a norm-throughout the years...... Just because you can't understand and combat stealth doesn't mean the entire class is toxic. Or if I'm missing the point actually say what the toxicity you're referring to is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santso.9201 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derenaya.3479 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"santso.9201" said: > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day It shouldn‘t be possible, not even with a GM trait. They should need to time their evades before the stun hits them or burn a stunbreak, like every other profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incisorr.9502 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"santso.9201" said: > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day and then you're no longer mirage the entire concept of the class is gone I understand its frustrating but you should understand that mirage has limited stamina and now with the infinite horizon meta you need stamina to do damage. If they use their stamina to dodge while cced then they're going to have 1 volley less of conditions from infinite horizon, it's really that simple. Thief uses initiative for offense or defense (not literally or entirely but you more or less get the point) and mirage uses stamina, its the same concept just different resource. > @"Derenaya.3479" said: > > @"santso.9201" said: > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > It shouldn‘t be possible, not even with a GM trait. They should need to time their evades before the stun hits them or burn a stunbreak, like every other profession. Only difference being that other professions have better/more stunbreaks and also stability, which mirage doesn't really have any more since it was also nerfed (along everything else) and the duration is stupidly short and can hardly be called a thing if we're talking about "every other profession" then feel free to increase the condi duration on every skill for mirage (like every other profession) cus right now its among , if not the shortest in the game. I love how some people were crying about torch applying 1 stack of burn for 10 seconds and then there's engii's pistol which is 4 stacks of burn for 15 sec+ which amounts to over 15k dmg Lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derenaya.3479 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > @"santso.9201" said: > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > and then you're no longer mirage > the entire concept of the class is gone > > I understand its frustrating but you should understand that mirage has limited stamina and now with the infinite horizon meta you need stamina to do damage. If they use their stamina to dodge while cced then they're going to have 1 volley less of conditions from infinite horizon, it's really that simple. > > Thief uses initiative for offense or defense (not literally or entirely but you more or less get the point) and mirage uses stamina, its the same concept just different resource. > > @"Derenaya.3479" said: > > > @"santso.9201" said: > > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > > > It shouldn‘t be possible, not even with a GM trait. They should need to time their evades before the stun hits them or burn a stunbreak, like every other profession. > > > Only difference being that other professions have better/more stunbreaks and also stability, which mirage doesn't really have any more since it was also nerfed (along everything else) and the duration is stupidly short and can hardly be called a thing > > if we're talking about "every other profession" then feel free to increase the condi duration on every skill for mirage (like every other profession) cus right now its among , if not the shortest in the game. > > I love how some people were crying about torch applying 1 stack of burn for 10 seconds and then there's engii's pistol which is 4 stacks of burn for 15 sec+ which amounts to over 15k dmg > Lmao I don‘t play mirage so how many stunbreaks do you have? Blink is the only one I can remember right now ( Edit: according to the meta build it is the only one). But besides that you have distortion, target breaks, stealth, acces to aegis and skills like axe #3 and staff #2 which imo is enough to avoid stuns. I can see your point tho but it‘s almost impossible to land a stun + damage combo because you can use evades more often than stunbreaks (+ you have easy acces to vigor). And it‘s not like you should be able to stunbreak every stun. There should be occasions where you can‘t do anything because of getting outplayed, having cds etc. It would also promote more skillfull play, atm you can just evade if you fuck up instead of actually evade a stun like everyone else does (I often get the impression mirages don‘t even try to evade stuns... If I think about it there‘s actually no reason to except if they hit hard). Tl;Dr: It should be possible to look mirages down which you can‘t atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Portal Smiter's Booned > It's ok, replace itt with another Target-Break or combat focused utility, and find a new equally powerful role. This nerf is felt only where Portal is being min-maxed, IE: highly coordinated PvP (non-existent). > > > Illusionary Defense dropped by 66% > It's ok, Master of Manipulation reduces the cooldown on Blink and Arcane Thievery, and throws in some 2s Mirrors to add to those 2s Mirrors you get on successful evade with 1.5s ICD from dueling. It certainly helps generate very significant projectile reflect uptime instead of stacking damage reduction. > > > Elusive Mind has 6 seconds of exhaustion > It's ok, there's Infinite Horizon. Easily a sleeper-trait where your clones can carry your damage with Ambushes while you play defensively. > > > Confounding Suggestions no longer stuns, > It's ok, you can always use the META build that never used this. > > > Torch 4+5 heavily nerfed in damage. > It's ok, every class had their burning nerfed in the same way, including classes that were way less good. (Ele, Engi, Guard) > > > Jaunt repeatedly nerfed in every aspect, Bountiful Disillusionment, Critical Infusion and Nomad's Endurance > This was one series of small nerfs that Mesmers are forced to eat, without simply swapping in other good options. Bravo ArenaNet. In my opinion, other classes were forced to eat just as many, if not more nerfs to their performance than Mesmers. > > The main point I want to drive home is that a classes' traits can be nerfed until one's blue in the face, but if there are already viable alternatives in place, that class doesn't perform worse, you're just shuffling the meta traits. It's like when they nerfed Holo's Exceed skills a half dozen ways, they had a bunch of viable Elixir Skills ready to go and were stronger than ever... understand? > > In my opinion, if we're going to shuffle the meta traits around, I'd much prefer for Mirage to be less invulnerable and visual clutter. Forcing players into Infinite Horizon, Chaos & staff (ugh), I'd much rather see a higher risk high reward roaming Mirage. > > The current Mirage meta build is toxic gameplay - it's like Mesmer became part Minionmancer or Turret Engi. This is why players hate facing it. Mirage overall is over-represented in queues, and players hate facing target breaks & never being able to trade blows and brawl with it. > > My 2c'. Calling vigor nerf a "small nerf". Mirage turned from possibly perma-vigor into one of the professions with least vigor, this on a profession whose main mechanic depend on endurance and whose endurance is used for both defense and offense. Jaunt received a series of nerfs and the only reason is used is because all core elites are awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UfoCoffee.2084 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > high risk, high reward > low risk, low reward > > this is how it should be. > > Since neither thieves nor mesmers take any risks at all, they must not do any damage. > > So by all means, be a perma-evade-clone-spamming-invul-ball of fuzz. If every single one of your attacks amount to nothing but 10hp damage and a bit of endurance reduction on your targets. > > Everything else is unbalanced. > > It is really that simple. > > Instead we got thieves and mesmers: no risk, high reward > > And ANET, thief and mesmer players are surprised that people are fed up with this mess? Seriously? When you say thief please state deadeye as d/p and s/d aren't that good currently. D/P has to take huge risks sometimes and can get one shot easily in this meta. S/d can be easily countered if you know where he's porting from but most people couldn't be bothered to learn this. I don't play deadeye as it feels clunky to me but yes it can blow stuff up but it can also be 1 shot if people use their brains and focus it but most players have tunnel vision and ignore it whilst it freecasts. It's also useless on a lot of maps due to line of sight. Most of the time I see them killing themselves whilst bursting into reflects. It is in no way as bad as mirage. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alilith.3157 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"UfoCoffee.2084" said: > It's back to when scourges were op. They are ruining PvP. I needed a mist core fragment last night and so grinded out some sPvP which i don't normally do off season and there were 80% of the time 4 mirage in each game. Needless to say it was about as much fun as having my toenails pulled out with pliers. > > Something needs to be done in next patch otherwise pvp population will drop again. Guildies have stopped playing pvp until they are fixed. > > Mirage mains will try saying L2P as ofc lazy people will always pick godmode class to climb easily but people like Shorts who is one of the best mesmers out there are always saying how OP and brainless condi mesmer is and yet we have average mesmer mains on here trying to say they are ok. > > I wouldn't mind their condi application if you could fight back, but it's nearly impossible to hit or catch them. If they want to run they just sword ambush or blink away or stealth etc You're seeeing more and more boonbeasts as they are the only class who has a chance versus them 1v1 if they're capping a node. Also even when i dodge their initial burst i still get some condis through my evade? > > D/P DD thief was nerfed to the ground as they had so many ways to escape and mobility so Anet said they shouldn't have damage too, yet Mirage is exactly the same and still has crazy damage? I don't get it. Lol how about them necro's throwing their condies everywhere completely on the point..? Hello 50000 stacks, hello dead within 1.5s. Especially when you have two of them in a team. Absolutely lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UfoCoffee.2084 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"Derenaya.3479" said: > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > @"santso.9201" said: > > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > > > and then you're no longer mirage > > the entire concept of the class is gone > > > > I understand its frustrating but you should understand that mirage has limited stamina and now with the infinite horizon meta you need stamina to do damage. If they use their stamina to dodge while cced then they're going to have 1 volley less of conditions from infinite horizon, it's really that simple. > > > > Thief uses initiative for offense or defense (not literally or entirely but you more or less get the point) and mirage uses stamina, its the same concept just different resource. > > > @"Derenaya.3479" said: > > > > @"santso.9201" said: > > > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > > > > > It shouldn‘t be possible, not even with a GM trait. They should need to time their evades before the stun hits them or burn a stunbreak, like every other profession. > > > > > > Only difference being that other professions have better/more stunbreaks and also stability, which mirage doesn't really have any more since it was also nerfed (along everything else) and the duration is stupidly short and can hardly be called a thing > > > > if we're talking about "every other profession" then feel free to increase the condi duration on every skill for mirage (like every other profession) cus right now its among , if not the shortest in the game. > > > > I love how some people were crying about torch applying 1 stack of burn for 10 seconds and then there's engii's pistol which is 4 stacks of burn for 15 sec+ which amounts to over 15k dmg > > Lmao > > I don‘t play mirage so how many stunbreaks do you have? Blink is the only one I can remember right now ( Edit: according to the meta build it is the only one). But besides that you have distortion, target breaks, stealth, acces to aegis and skills like axe #3 and staff #2 which imo is enough to avoid stuns. > > I can see your point tho but it‘s almost impossible to land a stun + damage combo because you can use evades more often than stunbreaks (+ you have easy acces to vigor). And it‘s not like you should be able to stunbreak every stun. There should be occasions where you can‘t do anything because of getting outplayed, having cds etc. > > It would also promote more skillfull play, atm you can just evade if you kitten up instead of actually evade a stun like everyone else does (I often get the impression mirages don‘t even try to evade stuns... If I think about it there‘s actually no reason to except if they hit hard). > > Tl;Dr: It should be possible to look mirages down which you can‘t atm. > > Right now in ranked there's 2 mesmer on each team. They just spam ambushes sitting among all their clones with IF covering you with condi. If you do target the real one among all the clutter and mess they just use their ton of evades and defence skills whilst the clones whittle you down. All the time with regen ticking. So ridiculous. If they run out of defence or get low blink away and stealth and regen up. Ready to go again. I'd love a mesmer main to try playing a real class so they can see how easy mesmer has it, then maybe they'd change their mind? Also are mesmer mains not sick of 4 mirage per game? I wonder what a new player would make of a fight in mid with 4 mesmers taking part. They'd probably think it was a WvW blob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UfoCoffee.2084 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"Derenaya.3479" said: > > @"santso.9201" said: > > Just Make blind on shatter icd of 10s, Make Mirage cloak like normal Dodge so that you cant evade If cc'd or immob unless you pick The gm trait and call it a day > > It shouldn‘t be possible, not even with a GM trait. They should need to time their evades before the stun hits them or burn a stunbreak, like every other profession. Exactly. They don't even have to try. Any other class has to use skill to dodge important attacks from the enemy whilst mesmer just doesn't care about stuns etc. It literally is playing easy mode whilst everyone else is playing normal. Are they keeping it op so casuals have a class to turn to? If so that's an utter disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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