Non-meta/cheese builds are dead.

[KrHome.1920]

Skill and player numbers are way more important than meta builds in WvW. There is so much cheese in that game mode that it is impossible to figure out one definite meta that is superior to everything else.

 

The mess is so big that I would call that mode "balanced"... if there wasn't this huge server population imbalance.

 

Mirage and thief: yeah we all know the issues. More a pain in the ass than ever before as anet is continuing in reducing instant bursts gamewide which often was the only chance to get a kill on these specs.

[meri.9187]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> I used to play with this guy who would play core engi no matter the "meta" no matter what we needed him to play. He did it so he could have the psychological win at the end of the day. If he lost he would just say "of course I lost I'm playing core engi." If he won he would say "wow this guy is trash he lost to a core engi." No matter what he had a way to make himself feel like he was the underdog, that the odds were against him. Sometimes he would lose a lot one day and complain about how op everything else was. I feel like this op could've been written by him.

 

Lol this is so true. I understand counters and it's why I don't get bent out of shape if I can't beat a decent condi mirage, but these people who handicap themselves just to take advantage of their raging inferiority complex are far worse than the people who play meta builds.

[coro.3176]

... but it IS OP though, in comparison.

 

It's just a fact. Compare any of the meta builds with the off meta right now.

 

Like, shit. My main damage skill (playing condi scrapper) will tick for about 1.5k/s of burn.

* on a melee range skill, blockable, with a cast time

* with a 12s cooldown

* that is kind of buggy and hard to land

 

...

 

* Meanwhile, soulbeast is autoattacking me on my full Dire gear for 7k per hit followed by a ~40k per unblockable-quickness-rapid-fire, from near 2k range away

* Meanwhile, spellbreaker is chaining resistance for 40-50s out of 60

* Meanwhile, core guard cleanses about 6x as many condi as I can even possibly put down in a minute assuming I land every single skill.

* Meanwhile, I can never land a cc+burst on mirage because dodge/cloak is on a vastly shorter cooldown than my skills .. not to mention broken OP dodge food, sigils, runes.

 

etc.

 

Now, I don't expect to be as good as the meta builds playing my off-meta condi scrapper... but I do expect to be somewhat competitive - like, in the same ballpark .

 

Back in the early days of the game, meta builds used to be .. say 10% better than off-meta. There was a healthy amount of build diversity and you honestly couldn't say what an opponent would be running until you saw them use some skills.

 

When HoT came out .. that diversity shrunk significantly.

 

Since PoF, meta builds have extended their lead even more. Meta builds are now like 50% or more better than off-meta. That's like throwing away 90% of all the traits and classes and builds in the game for the purposes of competitive play.

 

I don't ask that all builds be exactly equal in power level. I do ask that they be closer. It is just awful game design that such a wide and varied build system is currently so, so limited in competitive game modes.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> ... but it IS OP though, in comparison.

>

> It's just a fact. Compare any of the meta builds with the off meta right now.

>

> Like, kitten. My main damage skill (playing condi scrapper) will tick for about 1.5k/s of burn.

> * on a melee range skill, blockable, with a cast time

> * with a 12s cooldown

> * that is kind of buggy and hard to land

>

> ...

>

> * Meanwhile, soulbeast is autoattacking me on my full Dire gear for 7k per hit followed by a ~40k per unblockable-quickness-rapid-fire, from near 2k range away

> ...

 

I think a lot of players are complaining about soulbeast now because they have gotten a lot more mobile and much higher DPS compared to their Druid and Core counterparts.

And this has made extreme kiting soulbeasts a real hardcounter to a lot of classes/builds.

In the past, it was only necros who really struggled against these extreme kiting range classes.

Now, 7/9 of the classes are struggling (welcome to experiencing getting kited beyond your ability to respond).

 

You can see in my video below the first soulbeast fight for an example of extreme kiting that now hardcounters not only a necro, but many other classes/builds too.

 

This type of extreme kiting and high DPS from long range play-style works well against classes with lower mobility/range (which includes every class except thieves and mesmers) but can fail badly against classes with high mobility/reflects/stealth (like thieves and mesmers).

 

So the only classes now who can fight on an even footing against this type of extreme kiting, long-range and high DPS Soulbeast build/playstyle are thieves and mesmers

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCJB-1ZAB8M

 

I must say though, that in the video against that first extreme kiting long-range DPS Soulbeast, I had a fighting chance because right at the end when I disengaged with spectral walk, I could swap corrupt boon to spectral pull (because he had no stab), then spectral recall near him, and pull him in before chain fearing him (because he had no stunbreak). He would die if I landed that combo because he had weak condi clear. I decided against it though because I misplayed and didn't stunbreak to dodge his rapid fire in the earlier round and lost almost my entire shroud. Necro without shroud = dead.

 

It is an extremely small chance though, and requires the Soulbeast getting outplayed heavily. Such is the case of a real hardcounter that 7/9 classes would experience against these extreme kiting, long-range, high DPS Soulbeasts.

[Israel.7056]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> Now, I don't expect to be as good as the meta builds playing my off-meta condi scrapper... but I do expect to be somewhat competitive - like, in the same ballpark .

 

How many conceivable builds do you think there are in this game? Like every conceivable gear combination for every class every conceivable trait orientation every conceivable weapon choice etc?

 

Gotta be thousands at this point right?

[coro.3176]

No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

 

Maybe:

* at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class

* all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build

* all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

 

I don't think that would be asking too much

 

 

 

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

 

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

 

Engi:

* ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)

* 900 range

* 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

 

SB

* ~4k-10k damage immediately

* 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range

* ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

 

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

 

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> I've played this game for around 5 years now and the WvW is what always kept me coming back, but it just keeps getting worse and worse. There is no more room for "Different" builds. You run cheese and meta and that's it. you USED to be able to get away with builds that were a little more unconventional but played well to how YOU played. but now all you get is:

>

> Firebrands that fart out 10000 boons with no effort and heal for 200k HPS uncontested.

>

> Mirages will pop out 4-6 clones at a time, apply 15 of every known condi in the game on to you with 1 button, break target CONSTANTLY and just spam evade or stealth teleport away.

>

> Warriors will run right into a group, down 2 people, stomp 1, and leave with 2/5 utility still up and 90% health with no way to really stop them.

>

> Thieves will perma stealth or perma evade literally every ability in the game, then just dagger storm and port out.

>

> Scourges will blob harder than an alien xenomorph hivemind and just mindlessly spam corrupt and barrier to anything that moves.

>

> Holos just slam whatever they want into the ground, murder it, then run away, or chase you to the ends of the earth with their 10000 uptime mobility and full zerker because "Invulerability will save me".

>

> Rangers.... Oh my god. Longbow 2. Unblockable. 349846734534987643 damage all the way from another country. Run away with GS and bird. Reset. Do it again.

>

> Weavers summoning an actual meteor from heaven to crit your very soul into oblivion, evade, evade, evade, invulnerability, 100000000000 DPS in 2 hits, evade, evade, port, /laugh.

>

> Revs merging your body into the ground with Thor's Hammer, fully protected by a billion firebrands. Put a paperweight on your keyboard for bags.

>

> The ENTIRETY of all these builds needs to get slapped into the sun with the nerf bat. Reduce the roving hospital, boon-spam, zero punishment zerker, perma-steath, no-skill clone-spam, barrier stacking massively, invulnerability stacking. It has to happen. Roaming is all but dead for anything but 3-4 cheese builds, and zergs are just firebrands, scourges, and revs seeing who can break their keyboard first.

>

> BUFF to ENCOURAGE different builds. What is something YOU as a player would like to see "buffed" to play more of even though it isn't "Cheese" or "meta"?

 

What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

 

The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

 

Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

 

Could be.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

>

> What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

>

> The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

>

> Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

>

> Could be.

 

Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

>

> I would advise you to imagine yourself as a developer reading this sort of feedback.

>

> "My build sucks this other build is too strong either nerf them or buff me or i quit."

>

> What wisdom is there to be gleaned here?

 

Or I'm saying: "I'm a long-time player who's dumped hundreds of dollars into this game to support it because I've always believed in it, but the overwhelming community outcry for WvW to receive and iota of the same attention as PvE in terms of just balancing with little regard to anything being done about it only results in the loss of playerbase". If you're quite done putting words in my mouth now.

 

This isn't "oMG I died to a teef as a invincible warrior nerf nao QQ", it's WHY has the power creep that players have been more and more vocal about over the past 2-3 years become worse and worse and blatantly ignored, and IN THE PROCESS builds that used to at least be able to do something have been pushed out of the way for a "You play this class this 1 way only or get out" mentality.

[XenesisII.1540]

Don't worry, new expansion in september will change the meta up! and all these cheese builds will go away... and offer players a fresh period of time to develop new and improved cheese builds!

 

Either you accept this game will always have broken cheese specs, or move on, because it won't change, anet loves conditions, loves stealth, and loves one shot or one combo builds.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Don't worry, new expansion in september will change the meta up! and all these cheese builds will go away... and offer players a fresh period of time to develop new and improved cheese builds!

>

> Either you accept this game will always have broken cheese specs, or move on, because it won't change, anet loves conditions, loves stealth, and loves one shot or one combo builds.

 

*sigh* I know right. It makes me really sad. It's just crazy how classes went from applying a couple condis at a time which you had to use conver condis to protect to do damage, or if you build boon-bunker, you HAD to build deep and lost a lot of mobility/damage/etc. to debuff/boon/heal/1-shot bots in like 4 or less skills.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> >

> > I would advise you to imagine yourself as a developer reading this sort of feedback.

> >

> > "My build sucks this other build is too strong either nerf them or buff me or i quit."

> >

> > What wisdom is there to be gleaned here?

>

> Or I'm saying: "I'm a long-time player who's dumped hundreds of dollars into this game to support it because I've always believed in it, but the overwhelming community outcry for WvW to receive and iota of the same attention as PvE in terms of just balancing with little regard to anything being done about it only results in the loss of playerbase". If you're quite done putting words in my mouth now.

>

> This isn't "oMG I died to a teef as a invincible warrior nerf nao QQ", it's WHY has the power creep that players have been more and more vocal about over the past 2-3 years become worse and worse and blatantly ignored, and IN THE PROCESS builds that used to at least be able to do something have been pushed out of the way for a "You play this class this 1 way only or get out" mentality.

 

Frankly I'm not sure exactly what's changed that has apparently gotten so many people upset recently. Seems to me it's always the same complaints. I don't think they always ignore the feedback it's that the feedback from the wvw forum isn't very good most of the time. You need to give specifics about what exactly is causing problems for you and why. Then we can talk about whether the specific complaint makes sense or not. Complaining about power creep generally doesn't really tell us or them anything useful I don't think.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

>

> Frankly I'm not sure exactly what's changed that has apparently gotten so many people upset recently. Seems to me it's always the same complaints. I don't think they always ignore the feedback it's that the feedback from the wvw forum isn't very good most of the time. You need to give specifics about what exactly is causing problems for you and why. Then we can talk about whether the specific complaint makes sense or not. Complaining about power creep generally doesn't really tell us or them anything useful I don't think.

 

I agree with you to some extent, which is why I'm trying to start a dialogue about it with the player-base. What I'm posting about in particular in the insane synergy of some builds that have highly contributed from power creep.

 

Example: Guardians have always been good supports in roaming and zergs, and that's fantastic, but with firebrand AND additions to concentration (A.K.A Minstrel gear) their ability to pop out loads of boons in a very short amount of time and keep them stacking through concentration, with the ability to get insane levels of condi cleanse (Water tome [opening tome removes 3 from 5 allies, skill 2 removes 3 from 5 allies, skill 5 converts 5 into boons on 5 allies], shouts, mantras, Sigil, food, traits) and direct healing for a constant 5-10 allies per 1 firebrand is absurd without sacrificing that much damage (fire tome, burning is still the highest damaging condi in the game even without condi damage built), and remaining in full tank stats in an MMO that isn't supposed to be in the realm of "Holy Trinity". Prior to PoF guardians were still great supports, and had decent cleanse, healing, and boon output, but it was much more limited. Boons would expire quicker, you could stack or apply as many in such a short amount of time, Healing was more limited, and condi cleanse was on higher cooldowns giving you a window to properly corrupt or burst.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> >

> > What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

> >

> > The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

> >

> > Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

> >

> > Could be.

>

> Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

 

No point on making hyperboles and jokes then, if you have something against those profession, analyse the traits or skills that for you are broken and maybe suggest a change.

 

Tell me one example of one meta build recent or from the past which wasn't "cheesy"?

If a build it's meta, means it works and outshine all the other builds, and for this reason it's cheesy?

 

If i wanna roam in wvw and be a good roamer who flip camps, get sentries kill dolyaks, what are my best options to survive and do well this? Playing a meta roaming build.

If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > >

> > > What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

> > >

> > > The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

> > >

> > > Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

> > >

> > > Could be.

> >

> > Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

>

> No point on making hyperboles and jokes then, if you have something against those profession, analyse the traits or skills that for you are broken and maybe suggest a change.

>

> Tell me one example of one meta build recent or from the past which wasn't "cheesy"?

> If a build it's meta, means it works and outshine all the other builds, and for this reason it's cheesy?

>

> If i wanna roam in wvw and be a good roamer who flip camps, get sentries kill dolyaks, what are my best options to survive and do well this? Playing a meta roaming build.

> If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

 

Good for you. If you aren't going to contribute to the thread please move on.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > >

> > > > What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

> > > >

> > > > The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

> > > >

> > > > Could be.

> > >

> > > Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

> >

> > No point on making hyperboles and jokes then, if you have something against those profession, analyse the traits or skills that for you are broken and maybe suggest a change.

> >

> > Tell me one example of one meta build recent or from the past which wasn't "cheesy"?

> > If a build it's meta, means it works and outshine all the other builds, and for this reason it's cheesy?

> >

> > If i wanna roam in wvw and be a good roamer who flip camps, get sentries kill dolyaks, what are my best options to survive and do well this? Playing a meta roaming build.

> > If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

>

> Good for you. If you aren't going to contribute to the thread please move on.

 

I think he was agreeing with u in a way stating he was pushed to playing a meta build to survive in wvw

[Trittium.9104]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

> > > > >

> > > > > The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

> > > > >

> > > > > Could be.

> > > >

> > > > Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

> > >

> > > No point on making hyperboles and jokes then, if you have something against those profession, analyse the traits or skills that for you are broken and maybe suggest a change.

> > >

> > > Tell me one example of one meta build recent or from the past which wasn't "cheesy"?

> > > If a build it's meta, means it works and outshine all the other builds, and for this reason it's cheesy?

> > >

> > > If i wanna roam in wvw and be a good roamer who flip camps, get sentries kill dolyaks, what are my best options to survive and do well this? Playing a meta roaming build.

> > > If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

> >

> > Good for you. If you aren't going to contribute to the thread please move on.

>

> I think he was agreeing with u in a way stating he was pushed to playing a meta build to survive in wvw

 

Re-read, thank you for pointing it out. My apologies, Whoknocks. The issue with pointing out what is possibly broken (even though there are several) about a certain class is by pointing out 1 profession on THESE forums you're just hit with "L2P","Get gud", or "Saw you play x class so your argument is invalid". My whole thing with pointing out allll of them like I did aboe is to create conversation about them from EVERYONE with as little trolls making people ignore the thread as possible.

 

For your class, personally, I think the condi damage *could* be okay if the clone spam/ invulnerable-missile-reflect evade was toned down. Specifically since this elite has access to so many target breaks, there are way too many clones/phasms to deal with to constantly struggle to find the real one in the sheer visual noise that is already in this game. Shoot, even the evade spam is semi okay if it wasn't such a clone factory. In Mirage's current state, they have little to no counter.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> >

> > Frankly I'm not sure exactly what's changed that has apparently gotten so many people upset recently. Seems to me it's always the same complaints. I don't think they always ignore the feedback it's that the feedback from the wvw forum isn't very good most of the time. You need to give specifics about what exactly is causing problems for you and why. Then we can talk about whether the specific complaint makes sense or not. Complaining about power creep generally doesn't really tell us or them anything useful I don't think.

>

> I agree with you to some extent, which is why I'm trying to start a dialogue about it with the player-base. What I'm posting about in particular in the insane synergy of some builds that have highly contributed from power creep.

>

> Example: Guardians have always been good supports in roaming and zergs, and that's fantastic, but with firebrand AND additions to concentration (A.K.A Minstrel gear) their ability to pop out loads of boons in a very short amount of time and keep them stacking through concentration, with the ability to get insane levels of condi cleanse (Water tome [opening tome removes 3 from 5 allies, skill 2 removes 3 from 5 allies, skill 5 converts 5 into boons on 5 allies], shouts, mantras, Sigil, food, traits) and direct healing for a constant 5-10 allies per 1 firebrand is absurd without sacrificing that much damage (fire tome, burning is still the highest damaging condi in the game even without condi damage built), and remaining in full tank stats in an MMO that isn't supposed to be in the realm of "Holy Trinity". Prior to PoF guardians were still great supports, and had decent cleanse, healing, and boon output, but it was much more limited. Boons would expire quicker, you could stack or apply as many in such a short amount of time, Healing was more limited, and condi cleanse was on higher cooldowns giving you a window to properly corrupt or burst.

 

What scale of play are you looking at the game from?

 

I'm guessing this is smaller scale? 15 or less?

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

>

> Maybe:

> * at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class

> * all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build

> * all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

>

> I don't think that would be asking too much

>

>

>

> .. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

>

> Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

>

> Engi:

> * ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)

> * 900 range

> * 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

>

> SB

> * ~4k-10k damage immediately

> * 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range

> * ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

>

> This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

>

 

Comparing Condi Engineer to Power Soulbeast is like comparing Apples to Bananas (not even Oranges)...

 

If you really want to complain about damage, you should at very least compare a power build to another power build, or a condi build to another condi build. Power Holosmith for exemple can deal as much damage as Power Soulbeast and, while they may don't have 1500+ range, they have other powerful assets like that huge AoE CC that can even hit people on top of walls on certain Towers/Keeps or the Elite L4z0r beam that can track stealth and teleports during the cast time and the only way to not get hit is dodging or invuln through it (Because it's also unblockable) and deal massive ammounts of damage.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > @"Trittium.9104" said:

> > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What's that single button on mirage that apply 15 stacks to you of every single condi in the game? I wanna use that magic button too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The way you described the builds shows off an high ignorance about the game even tho you stated to play it since 5 years.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe with the new elite specs did you remain outdated and never played one yourself to know how they works?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Could be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or maybe it's Hyperbole (but relevant) and you could contribute to the conversation or just leave. I've dumped more time into this x-pac then any other x-pac of any other game ever. I'm well aware of what I'm talking about, but once again -- Hyperbole -- over your head I guess.

> > > >

> > > > No point on making hyperboles and jokes then, if you have something against those profession, analyse the traits or skills that for you are broken and maybe suggest a change.

> > > >

> > > > Tell me one example of one meta build recent or from the past which wasn't "cheesy"?

> > > > If a build it's meta, means it works and outshine all the other builds, and for this reason it's cheesy?

> > > >

> > > > If i wanna roam in wvw and be a good roamer who flip camps, get sentries kill dolyaks, what are my best options to survive and do well this? Playing a meta roaming build.

> > > > If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

> > >

> > > Good for you. If you aren't going to contribute to the thread please move on.

> >

> > I think he was agreeing with u in a way stating he was pushed to playing a meta build to survive in wvw

>

> Re-read, thank you for pointing it out. My apologies, Whoknocks. The issue with pointing out what is possibly broken (even though there are several) about a certain class is by pointing out 1 profession on THESE forums you're just hit with "L2P","Get gud", or "Saw you play x class so your argument is invalid". My whole thing with pointing out allll of them like I did aboe is to create conversation about them from EVERYONE with as little trolls making people ignore the thread as possible.

>

> For your class, personally, I think the condi damage *could* be okay if the clone spam/ invulnerable-missile-reflect evade was toned down. Specifically since this elite has access to so many target breaks, there are way too many clones/phasms to deal with to constantly struggle to find the real one in the sheer visual noise that is already in this game. Shoot, even the evade spam is semi okay if it wasn't such a clone factory. In Mirage's current state, they have little to no counter.

 

I know and I'm not trying to defende condi mirage at all, but there will be always meta builds and strong professions called cheesy, no matter how much you will nerf or tone down those specs right now, in 1 day way more cancer builds will pop out of nowhere.

 

Remember when launched holo was "garbage" and called an interesting design, but nothing special... and look right now...

 

Same as soulbeast...

 

Even with all the balances, some builds will prevail over the others.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

plus one for descriptions.

[coro.3176]

> @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

> >

> > Maybe:

> > * at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class

> > * all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build

> > * all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

> >

> > I don't think that would be asking too much

> >

> >

> >

> > .. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

> >

> > Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

> >

> > Engi:

> > * ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)

> > * 900 range

> > * 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

> >

> > SB

> > * ~4k-10k damage immediately

> > * 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range

> > * ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

> >

> > This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

> >

>

> Comparing Condi Engineer to Power Soulbeast is like comparing Apples to Bananas (not even Oranges)...

>

> If you really want to complain about damage, you should at very least compare a power build to another power build, or a condi build to another condi build. Power Holosmith for exemple can deal as much damage as Power Soulbeast and, while they may don't have 1500+ range, they have other powerful assets like that huge AoE CC that can even hit people on top of walls on certain Towers/Keeps or the Elite L4z0r beam that can track stealth and teleports during the cast time and the only way to not get hit is dodging or invuln through it (Because it's also unblockable) and deal massive ammounts of damage.

 

That's my point though. I'm not saying Soulbeast > Holo or whatever. I'm saying Soulbeast **AND** Holo > non-meta by too much. Soulbeast and Holo are like a full 50-70% better than some other spec like Druid or Scrapper. I want that disparity to be much lower.

 

And yeah, I was comparing power to condi, but .. do you think that the condi weapon should be dealing **less than half the damage** from **less than half the range** that applies over a 10s period and can be **easily cleansed**? Like .. how? Why? If anything, pistol should be doing 4x it's current damage just to make up for the range and fact it is never going to stick more than 2-3s out of 10s with it's bleed.

[syszery.1592]

When I look up the latest WvW videos on youtube there are quite a choice of videos from people who are not playing pure meta builds. Sure these are usually montages and hence they just give a selection of their best fights, but still they manage to do good with their builds. Or do you just call all of these non-meta builds _cheese_ and be done with it?

 

Want an example? Here, it's not from me but I like the content and Firebrand is not meta for roaming as far as I know.

 

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> When I look up the latest WvW videos on youtube there are quite a choice of videos from people who are not playing pure meta builds. Sure these are usually montages and hence they just give a selection of their best fights, but still they manage to do good with their builds. Or do you just call all of these non-meta builds _cheese_ and be done with it?

>

> Want an example? Here, it's not from me but I like the content and Firebrand is not meta for roaming as far as I know.

>

>

 

I would agree with you that FB is not meta for solo roaming outside of organized groups as I rarely see them.

I did fight one recently though and boi was he strong.

And you know how strong a FB is for dueling?

A recent 1 vs 1 Tournament held in the new PvP arena had two FBs as its finalist.

Both FBs beat condi mirages, soulbeasts, spellbreakers and thieves en route to the finals.

And needless to say, the Tournament was won by a FB.

I asked the Guardian forums if they would consider using FB for roaming because they are so strong fighters but so rare.

Their response was that FB is a strong dueler but lacking in mobility which makes it less appealing.

I guess FB would be a slightly more mobile version of a Necromancer? Which well...can be bad against long range kiting foes...

Against melee to mid-range foes though...FB is definitely up there in terms of fighting strength.

[Curunen.8729]

lol, yep that OP just about sums it up. xD

 

Edit - to clarify, yeah the power creep has rendered the entire thing somewhat brain dead on every side. Insane damage spam, defence spam, etc... Despite this what keeps me coming back to play are the aesthetics - visual and audio effects, which are still thankfully a lot of fun.