Turk.5460 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > > > > > but. > > > > > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? > > > > Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 > They are definetly not the most represented roamer, but I've said it before and I'm saying it again - **mirage is one of the best 1v1 classes and condi mirage in particular heavily punish those that cant condi cleanse**. I dont dispute that. But WvW isnt black and white. 1v1 is a very small aspect of it. WvW encourage group combat - in fact I would dare say that is the **point** of WvW. We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+. At the end of the day maybe you wont win a 1v1, but any class can kill assist in group combat. And coincidentally, as I've also said many times, the condi mirage is worse at that than pretty much anyone else. Other classes share similar fates, such as thief and ranger... perhaps its a pattern that good 1v1 arent really taken in group combat? *Something something balance.* They're maybe not the most represented if you are in lower tiers with a lesser population or on offpeak hours. But I assure you, they are indeed the most represented roamer in NA T1/2 between 5pm-10pm PST on weekdays. There is no definitive point to WvW. If 1v1, 2v2, or assisting an ally in a roaming fight truly was of no consequence, then why do you think there is always so much outcry when something is over performing - and then "something something balanced" *specifically* in a small setting? Death's Judgement, Full Counter, True Shot, Berserker in general, almost every aspect of Daredevil, etc: the list goes on. None of those things and similar "something something balanced" abilities were ever over performing in group combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > > > > > > > but. > > > > > > > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? > > > > > > Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 > > They are definetly not the most represented roamer, but I've said it before and I'm saying it again - **mirage is one of the best 1v1 classes and condi mirage in particular heavily punish those that cant condi cleanse**. I dont dispute that. But WvW isnt black and white. 1v1 is a very small aspect of it. WvW encourage group combat - in fact I would dare say that is the **point** of WvW. We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+. At the end of the day maybe you wont win a 1v1, but any class can kill assist in group combat. And coincidentally, as I've also said many times, the condi mirage is worse at that than pretty much anyone else. Other classes share similar fates, such as thief and ranger... perhaps its a pattern that good 1v1 arent really taken in group combat? *Something something balance.* > > They're maybe not the most represented if you are in lower tiers with a lesser population or on offpeak hours. But I assure you, they are indeed the most represented roamer in NA T1/2 between 5pm-10pm PST on weekdays. There is no definitive point to WvW. If 1v1, 2v2, or assisting an ally in a roaming fight truly was of no consequence, then why do you think there is always so much outcry when something is over performing - and then "something something balanced" *specifically* in a small setting? Death's Judgement, Full Counter, True Shot, Berserker in general, almost every aspect of Daredevil, etc: the list goes on. None of those things and similar "something something balanced" abilities were ever over performing in group combat. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Mesmer has been nerfed as well in the same patches that nerfed the rest (the loss of the 3rd jaunt charge in particular was bad, given that we already had a 50% increase in cd before). And the classes that have those skills? Pretty much all counters to each other and more than capable of hard fights between thieves, mesmers, guardians and warriors when it comes to 1v1. In fact some of them are considered hardcounters to the others and any duo of them can easily beat 1 of the others given equal skill. Well, maybe guardians is the runt but they can still be hard targets, DH traps can instakill squishes or they can built to nearly infinetly tank but in turn for being a lesser 1v1 they absolutely dominate group combat. Which leads to... something something balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > > > > > > > > > but. > > > > > > > > > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? > > > > > > > > Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 > > > They are definetly not the most represented roamer, but I've said it before and I'm saying it again - **mirage is one of the best 1v1 classes and condi mirage in particular heavily punish those that cant condi cleanse**. I dont dispute that. But WvW isnt black and white. 1v1 is a very small aspect of it. WvW encourage group combat - in fact I would dare say that is the **point** of WvW. We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+. At the end of the day maybe you wont win a 1v1, but any class can kill assist in group combat. And coincidentally, as I've also said many times, the condi mirage is worse at that than pretty much anyone else. Other classes share similar fates, such as thief and ranger... perhaps its a pattern that good 1v1 arent really taken in group combat? *Something something balance.* > > > > They're maybe not the most represented if you are in lower tiers with a lesser population or on offpeak hours. But I assure you, they are indeed the most represented roamer in NA T1/2 between 5pm-10pm PST on weekdays. There is no definitive point to WvW. If 1v1, 2v2, or assisting an ally in a roaming fight truly was of no consequence, then why do you think there is always so much outcry when something is over performing - and then "something something balanced" *specifically* in a small setting? Death's Judgement, Full Counter, True Shot, Berserker in general, almost every aspect of Daredevil, etc: the list goes on. None of those things and similar "something something balanced" abilities were ever over performing in group combat. > I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. That's unfortunate. I suggest re-reading my reply keeping in mind the context of the post I was replying to. >Mesmer has been nerfed as well in the same patches that nerfed the rest (the loss of the 3rd jaunt charge in particular was bad, given that we already had a 50% increase in cd before). The lightest of nerfs that did not affect the class in any noticeable way - very much unlike the nerfs to other roaming/small scale builds >And the classes that have those skills? Pretty much all counters to each other and more than capable of hard fights between thieves, mesmers, guardians and warriors when it comes to 1v1. In fact some of them are considered hardcounters to the others *Highly* subjective and based almost exclusively on opinion; not relevant here, as those arguments belong elsewhere and devolve immediately to build vs. build with rampant goalpost movement, rather than your blanket statement of class vs. class. Though to continue on this - it is widely agreed upon that nothing counters Mirage. >and any duo of them can easily beat 1 of the others given equal skill. Nobody has disputed this... >Well, maybe guardians is the runt but they can still be hard targets, DH traps can instakill squishes or they can built to nearly infinetly tank but in turn for being a lesser 1v1 they absolutely dominate group combat. Which leads to... something something balance. What is group combat to you? Because DH absolutely *does not* dominate large group combat. It's not even in the top 10 of builds. In the context of the post I replied to, you *clearly* implied that group combat is large scale, thus why you specifically included how roaming classes are not included in those groups. You're often a voice of reason on these forums, but it seems whenever a discussion regarding the over-tuned nature of Mirage pops up, your arguments start getting riddled with hypocrisy, incredibly biased information or misinformation, and blatant goalpoast moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I’m in a very active na server and every third players a mirage or mes so they definitely are well represented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > I’m in a very active na server and every third players a mirage or mes so they definitely are well represented NA has zergs of mesmer? o.O I'll have to double check with Roy next time he's on, that's pretty crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > What is group combat to you? Because DH absolutely *does not* dominate large group combat. It's not even in the top 10 of builds. In the context of the post I replied to, you *clearly* implied that group combat is large scale, thus why you specifically included how roaming classes are not included in those groups. There are no guardians in zergs? When I talk about classes I dont limit myself to builds. I was talking about dh being a good duelist and firebrands being tanky supports in duos+ (ie same as zerg builds, small guilds run this all the time) - they're all guardians. People choose what they want. Smaller groups (5-10) usually turn into zerg meta pretty quickly while a good group of 2-4 can beat any other combo as long as its composed of players that can play their builds well and pile onto the right target. Thats why roamers usually dont lay claim to a strict class meta among the 3 top tiers. Because good players and tactics still matter. All classes can 1v1 each other. If condi mirages gives roamers problems, they bring something that can bloody beat them. I said *"We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+"* so how I was *clearly* implying that group combat is large scale I dont know. I'm starting to think that the problem here instead is that NA still hasnt figured out power meta... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > What is group combat to you? Because DH absolutely *does not* dominate large group combat. It's not even in the top 10 of builds. In the context of the post I replied to, you *clearly* implied that group combat is large scale, thus why you specifically included how roaming classes are not included in those groups. > There are no guardians in zergs? When I talk about classes I dont limit myself to builds. I was talking about dh being a good duelist and firebrands being tanky supports in duos+ (ie same as zerg builds, small guilds run this all the time) - they're all guardians. People choose what they want. Smaller groups (5-10) usually turn into zerg meta pretty quickly while a good group of 2-4 can beat any other combo as long as its composed of players that can play their builds well and pile onto the right target. Thats why roamers usually dont lay claim to a strict class meta among the 3 top tiers. Because good players and tactics still matter. All classes can 1v1 each other. If condi mirages gives roamers problems, they bring something that can bloody beat them. > > I said *"We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+"* so how I was *clearly* implying that group combat is large scale I dont know. > > I'm starting to think that the problem here instead is that NA still hasnt figured out power meta... You say you don't limit yourself to builds in these discussions? > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > And coincidentally, as I've also said many times, the condi mirage is worse at that than pretty much anyone else. Other classes share similar fates, such as thief and ranger... perhaps its a pattern that good 1v1 arent really taken in group combat? I don't even have to comment on that quote, it effectively puts your own foot in your mouth on its own, but in case anyone doesn't understand why: Chronomancer (A Mesmer, so not to limit just to builds, right?) is very welcome in all squads. Your attempt at a jab towards NA is seemingly out of nowhere, and is the sign of desperate attempt to derail a losing argument. Please point out where I mentioned condi mirages in any of my posts you replied to. *You* mentioned condi Mirage. Then *you* started arguing as if that was the focal point. I simply mentioned how Mirage is the most represented roamer, regardless of what off-peak hours you take notice of or low-populated tier you happen to play on. Thank's for your input, but your hypocrisy and goalpost movement don't have any place in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: >I don't even have to comment on that quote, it effectively puts your own foot in your mouth on its own, but in case anyone doesn't understand why: Chronomancer (A Mesmer, so not to limit just to builds, right?) is very welcome in all squads. > > Your attempt at a jab towards NA is seemingly out of nowhere, and is the sign of desperate attempt to derail a losing argument. Please point out where I mentioned condi mirages in any of my posts you replied to. *You* mentioned condi Mirage. Then *you* started arguing as if that was the focal point. I simply mentioned how Mirage is the most represented roamer, regardless of what off-peak hours you take notice of or low-populated tier you happen to play on. > > Thank's for your input, but your hypocrisy and goalpost movement don't have any place in this discussion. Condi mirage seem to constantly be the complaint, but ok quick question then: is it power mirage that's the most common NA roamer? If we where talking about power mirages, sorry. If we are talking about power vanilla mesmers being the most common NA roamer, sorry again (for the poor mesmers). I was talking about how people pick a good 1v1 build - regardless of what that build is - which is more often than not a mediocre group combat build. The more damage you want in 1v1, the worse it has a tendancy to become at taking the pressure of group combat. People that complain about these 1v1 has a tendancy to run something meta in the other direction, therein lie the self imposed restrictions. Chronomancer are not "very welcome" in squads. They are *tolerated* that's about it. Guardians, revs, necros, those are welcomed. Chronomancer is an afterthought on the level of "do we have a veil? No veil? Ok lets push anyway." or "why arent you on a scourge we need more dps". I rate it on the same level as a scrapper with the "our backline is dying but we need more firebrands to push deeper" approach. Nobody welcomes them, if the zerg wins because of them it's the firebrands that won it for them. Always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > I’m in a very active na server and every third players a mirage or mes so they definitely are well represented > > NA has zergs of mesmer? o.O > > I'll have to double check with Roy next time he's on, that's pretty crazy. No zergs are mostly few fb with 15 or so scourges and rest mixed classes as per the usual but see a lot of mes,mirage and Chronos on the sidelines and roaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > I’m in a very active na server and every third players a mirage or mes so they definitely are well represented > > > > NA has zergs of mesmer? o.O > > > > I'll have to double check with Roy next time he's on, that's pretty crazy. > > No zergs are mostly few fb with 15 or so scourges and rest mixed classes as per the usual but see a lot of mes,mirage and Chronos on the sidelines and roaming So basically every 3rd player isn't a mesmer then, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Yeah if someone tells u an exact representation thier lying,u special or somthing? Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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