how do people decide that mirage is op? (it's not op, a defense of the cyber bullied class)

[Patrick.2987]

'You've pretty much destroyed it whether you consciously wanted to or not and this isn't me saying everything is fine, mirage is ferpectly balanced, it's me pointing out that you're removing the only thing that defines the spec and makes it any way better than core and would need something else to make it an elite spec changing the way you play.'

 

Why should it be superior to core in the first place? Maybe buff the core lines a bit and make it equal?

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> Why should it be superior to core in the first place? Maybe buff the core lines a bit and make it equal?

Remember when Anet said Elite Specs were supposed to be sidegrades? =)

 

[RedShark.9548]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> seems like these days the tension has risen due to a certain popular streamer's videos and all the peons are in an uproar with their pitchforks with the hope of getting lord arena net to once and for all completely obliterate and delete the spec mirage and their reasoning? It's " overpowered" . When asked to present arguments and when they fail to present arguments or even to understand how mirage skills even work they resort to the argument

> "" ** it's not fun to play against ** "" . Well guess what - i don't have fun playing against all sorts of cheesy bs. Fun is subjective, i have fun playing vs CONDI mirages. (not power, power is a sea animal)

>

....

>

 

Where did you get your stats from? Show us some source, you are claiming stuff left and right, that is obviously just your opinion.

 

I wonder why you rerolled every other class and stuck with one of the strongest cheesebuilds out there. Lol.

[incisorr.9502]

> @"zoomborg.9462" said:

> On a vacuum a class is determined strong or weak depending on results vs effort. Mirage gives the most value for very little effort.

>

> Lets say you're playing power mirage for example. U can do some serious burst, have great mobility and evasion but if your burst gets evaded or blocked or w/e u practically have to kite and run until its up again. U also have to deal with protection and retaliation that most tanky classes can self generate. So even though the build has much potential it depends on a lot of factors and mostly experience to get any value out of it. In other words, its unreliable and risky. It requires a lot of effort.

>

> Condi mirage doesnt have those limitations. The condi pressure is huge and non-stop, u can kitten out illusions 24/7, u can break targetting every 8 sec, confusion and torment on PvP are basically the best conditions to apply and mirage has a ton of access into those.Hell, just having illusions attacking while u afk is still enough to put significant pressure. U dont really need timing cause everything has low cd and sooner or later every class runs out of condi cleanses.Add to that the accessibily to self generating boons through chaos. Basically its OP cause it provides maximum value for low effort. I good mirage can stomp anything even 1v2s are extremely annoying. A bad mirage will still cause problems even if he's just mashing buttons with no clue. There is no other build in the game that is as effective atm.

>

> Back in the day the same was happening with d/p thief . Basically a class was considered meta or not based on if it can survive and somehow counter a thief burst. Now a class is considered good if it can somehow stand up to a mirage.

 

 

but just wrong, lol.

 

first of all condi mirage needs power else it does no dmg = wizard/carrion amulets = 2000 power = its not "condi "its hybrid already, a good part of your dmg is power dmg so you DO care about all the stuff that power does

secondly people have separated condition removal and heals/protection so none of that even matters

 

if anything look at it this way. If you can mitigate 5k power damage and 5k condi damage a power mirage has 15k damage you get 10k damage but if you get a hybrid mirage that does 10k condi and 10k power dmg it still does only 10k dmg even tho it has 25% more dmg

and now we get to the problem where condi removal is shared, its not flat mitigation obviously its skill based - if you condi remove at the beginning you mitigate **all** of it. Splitting your damage has pros and at the same time has cons, saying that power damage has it harder is blatantly false. Conditional damage is much harder to play with for that reason - its "CONDITIONAL" , it can be countered if the enemy understands the conditions and stops them

 

also lol at saying that power has to deal with retaliation when retaliation is actually much harder counter for condi than power is, because condi is many low dmg hits and retaliation counters multi-hits more than anything else

 

 

 

 

 

> @"Derm.4932" said:

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Let's summarize:

> >

> > Mirage is un-fun to play against? Check.

> >

> > Mirage is overpowered? The top 10% picks would disagree, so no.

> >

> > A ton of want to be pvp players with no skill complaining about the wrong thing? Check.

> >

> > If you want to complain that Mirage is un-fun to play against, fine. That is at least understandable.

> > If you want to argue that Mirage is overpowered? Neither the picks, nor the statistics support this so: learn to play (ideally make a mirage and play the class yourself to finally understand it).

>

> 

>

 

not sure how old this quote is but lol at only looking at 20 players xd

 

there were 2 mirages in the current top 4 teams and both of them lost and weren't even remotely impactful in their games

 

i've never defended mirage in the past because even i agree that it was op in the past i've even made threads to complain about it in the past but it stopped being op awhile ago and that can be seen everywhere

 

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> mirage is fine, dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine.

>

> I only hope that next expansion the other classes get something as equally broken such as walking through terrain or 450 teleports on dodge through walls because "balanced, L2P scrubs"..

> Maybe thief becomes invulnerable while stealthed?

> Maybe Ele can summon a storm to cover an entire map that instagibs people?

> just some ideas for classes to break combat parameters like Mesmer can currently achieve, that should "balance" the game a little lol

 

 

i watched a holo streamer yesterday and he got hit by a cc and he didn't get cced cus he had stability. In my mind (as a mirage player) cc skills are so obvious because you have to react to them while other classes just facetank cus of stability

 

dodging while stunned isn't "broken "for that exact reason, you dont have the same defensive options as others and those are your defensive options and at the same time this is your offensive option so if you use it for defense then you have much worse offense

 

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> To quote A-net: "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements." The defense options aren't going anywhere.

> They will continue to tone down the damage, and people will continue to die and cry because they don't outplay it.

 

i didn't know they said that but that's the exact vibe the concept of a "mirage" gives and at the same time the class has no protection or stability or vigor any more so if they were to nerf it even further it would just stop working completely. The only good defense mirage has is taking the chaos traitline and then it has no damage instead, it's a high risk high reward and not low risk high reward like people attempt to imply

 

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> This topic illustrates the huge problem of the forum, which is top players arguing with lower placed players, although both are right.

>

> Incisorr is right, mirages aren't so good at top level because all 5 players do know how to play against it , and have builds for it.

> However, people saying mirage is OP are probably playing in gold or below, where it usually takes 1 player or 1 bad setup to lose to any mirage or double mirage team.

> Note that this is the same issue for reaper or scourge. I mean, i had games at 1000 rating past seasons where all my team would drop like flies to a mesmer or a necro i could kill within 4 seconds. That's clearly a l2p issue, but i'm still not sure it should be so easy for an average player to beat so easily other average players only thanks to build.

>

> If i had to give my point of view, from a competitive perspective, mirage is ok. However, this is simply not fun playing against double mirages, or mirages + scourges in ranked because it's completly out of control for me

 

if you balance the game over people who can't commit x hours to your game then you're doing it wrong

 

i think the game should always be balanced over higher levels of play and that also gives a reason for lower level people to learn to play

 

if you can't drive a car you can't expect the roads and rules to revolve around you

if you can't do x job you can't expect them to hire you and change the job for it to fit you, it only makes sense

 

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> Where did you get your stats from? Show us some source, you are claiming stuff left and right, that is obviously just your opinion.

>

> I wonder why you rerolled every other class and stuck with one of the strongest cheesebuilds out there. Lol.

 

 

i literally wrote why i stuck with mirage in my first post.. didn't i? Also despite sticking to it i probably still have less playtime on it than i do on other classes

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > This topic illustrates the huge problem of the forum, which is top players arguing with lower placed players, although both are right.

> >

> > Incisorr is right, mirages aren't so good at top level because all 5 players do know how to play against it , and have builds for it.

> > However, people saying mirage is OP are probably playing in gold or below, where it usually takes 1 player or 1 bad setup to lose to any mirage or double mirage team.

> > Note that this is the same issue for reaper or scourge. I mean, i had games at 1000 rating past seasons where all my team would drop like flies to a mesmer or a necro i could kill within 4 seconds. That's clearly a l2p issue, but i'm still not sure it should be so easy for an average player to beat so easily other average players only thanks to build.

> >

> > If i had to give my point of view, from a competitive perspective, mirage is ok. However, this is simply not fun playing against double mirages, or mirages + scourges in ranked because it's completly out of control for me

>

> if you balance the game over people who can't commit x hours to your game then you're doing it wrong

>

> i think the game should always be balanced over higher levels of play and that also gives a reason for lower level people to learn to play

>

> if you can't drive a car you can't expect the roads and rules to revolve around you

> if you can't do x job you can't expect them to hire you and change the job for it to fit you, it only makes sense

 

You cannot compare 1v1 situations to several people situation. Pretty much like in a class where everyone has 25% at his maths exam and one had 95%. If someone managed to get 95%, then it's a " learn and practice " issue, though it's pretty sure the teacher will tell that the exam was too hard.

 

Actually, i do entirely agree with you concerning mirage. But let's be honest, just give a shot at several games in gold division, you will see the frustration. It's clearly possible to win and end up climbing, but it's really not fun after a few seasons. It's clearly not the same when you do x seasons starting at platinum , and when you do x seasons starting between 1000 and 1300.

 

[Zenix.6198]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> >

> > 

> >

>

> not sure how old this quote is but lol at only looking at 20 players xd

>

 

I dont think this data is just from 1 AT with 20 players.

It rather suggests a certain number of ATs over a certain timespan.

Would be nice to have some confirmation of this from a Dev.

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > mirage is fine, dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine.

> >

> > I only hope that next expansion the other classes get something as equally broken such as walking through terrain or 450 teleports on dodge through walls because "balanced, L2P scrubs"..

> > Maybe thief becomes invulnerable while stealthed?

> > Maybe Ele can summon a storm to cover an entire map that instagibs people?

> > just some ideas for classes to break combat parameters like Mesmer can currently achieve, that should "balance" the game a little lol

>

> OK so "dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling is not fine." So lets say we do what you ask and remove that ability, where do you think that leaves mirage?

>

> Without Infinite horizon clones do nothing so this makes infinite horizon almost mandatory, not that it's any different given how aweful the alternatives are. If Infinite Horizon gets changed then it would be an issue.

> Mirage cloak then ends up being a slightly better dodge just because on paper it lasts 0.25s longer and because you can't cast in it you only get to use ambush skills in the last 0.5s of mirage cloak.

>

> At that point even renegade looks better than mirage and I am not joking either.

>

> So if you do remove that what are you going to make the spec into? You've pretty much destroyed it whether you consciously wanted to or not and this isn't me saying everything is fine, mirage is ferpectly balanced, it's me pointing out that you're removing the only thing that defines the spec and makes it any way better than core and would need something else to make it an elite spec changing the way you play.

>

> Edit: Forgot to say yes dodging while CC'd shouldn't be a thing.

 

Ambush skills?

Its my personal opinion that Mirage cloak should be cosmetic and EM reverted. (would function like every other dodge for X trait)

Thief has a cool dodge animation but it doesn't do anything for example unless you trait for it..

Arcane dodges for Ele

Symbol for Nec and so on

 

im not fussed if people share that ideal or not but making Mirage Cloak a cosmetic would also seem to solve most complaints..

 

Good news is I don't think anyone has to worry about the idea being implemented, I mean why pick mine when theres so many other good ideas that are more important to PvP population and so forth

[apharma.3741]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> 'You've pretty much destroyed it whether you consciously wanted to or not and this isn't me saying everything is fine, mirage is ferpectly balanced, it's me pointing out that you're removing the only thing that defines the spec and makes it any way better than core and would need something else to make it an elite spec changing the way you play.'

>

> Why should it be superior to core in the first place? Maybe buff the core lines a bit and make it equal?

 

Actually what was suggested would make the line worse than any core line on mesmer. I'm all for making it a side step and a different play style but it has to be a different play style which removing mirage cloaks ability to "dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling." would do. Think about it, you'd then have a dodge that doesn't move you and gives you ambush skills in the last 0.5s after your dodge.

 

That's the entire trait line more or less. The utility skills might give some more dodges but considering no-one actually uses any of them except illusionary ambush it's safe to say they're no better than core for what they give.

 

Either way if you want to remove the ability to essentially do anything while dodging you're going to have to do a fair bit of reworking as that's the core aspect of the elite spec.

[Patrick.2987]

Condi thief used to use dodges offensively aswell so that argument is pretty stupid. You have good condition application even if you use ur dodges defensively. Mirage also offers more than dodging while stunned, you have another healskilloption, new utilities, a defensive conditionweapon and you do not move while dodging, detargeting, mirrors etc. To say this is the only thing mirage offers is just wrong. Keep in mind there are other specs also in need of a nerf which makes mirage stronger by itself but to say it needs buffs is just mindblowing.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> Condi thief used to use dodges offensively aswell so that argument is pretty stupid. You have good condition application even if you use ur dodges defensively. Mirage also offers more than dodging while stunned, you have another healskilloption, new utilities, a defensive conditionweapon and you do not move while dodging, detargeting, mirrors etc. To say this is the only thing mirage offers is just wrong. Keep in mind there are other specs also in need of a nerf which makes mirage stronger by itself but to say it needs buffs is just mindblowing.

 

Detargeting is not unique to mirage it's on base skills. And please, the only decent skills you get from Mirage are Illusionary Ambush, False Oasis and at one point Jaunt. The rest of them are incredibly low impact garbage. He didn't say it needed buffs, he said if you remove the entire theme of the spec (dodging while casting etc) what are you going to replace it with? Since Ambushing after your dodge ends would be more or less pointless and dodging at that point would be a big glowing purple sign saying 'interrupt me in a second'

[Patrick.2987]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > Condi thief used to use dodges offensively aswell so that argument is pretty stupid. You have good condition application even if you use ur dodges defensively. Mirage also offers more than dodging while stunned, you have another healskilloption, new utilities, a defensive conditionweapon and you do not move while dodging, detargeting, mirrors etc. To say this is the only thing mirage offers is just wrong. Keep in mind there are other specs also in need of a nerf which makes mirage stronger by itself but to say it needs buffs is just mindblowing.

>

> Detargeting is not unique to mirage it's on base skills. And please, the only decent skills you get from Mirage are Illusionary Ambush, False Oasis and at one point Jaunt. The rest of them are incredibly low impact garbage. He didn't say it needed buffs, he said if you remove the entire theme of the spec (dodging while casting etc) what are you going to replace it with? Since Ambushing after your dodge ends would be more or less pointless and dodging at that point would be a big glowing purple sign saying 'interrupt me in a second'

 

You forgot to mention axe.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > > Condi thief used to use dodges offensively aswell so that argument is pretty stupid. You have good condition application even if you use ur dodges defensively. Mirage also offers more than dodging while stunned, you have another healskilloption, new utilities, a defensive conditionweapon and you do not move while dodging, detargeting, mirrors etc. To say this is the only thing mirage offers is just wrong. Keep in mind there are other specs also in need of a nerf which makes mirage stronger by itself but to say it needs buffs is just mindblowing.

> >

> > Detargeting is not unique to mirage it's on base skills. And please, the only decent skills you get from Mirage are Illusionary Ambush, False Oasis and at one point Jaunt. The rest of them are incredibly low impact garbage. He didn't say it needed buffs, he said if you remove the entire theme of the spec (dodging while casting etc) what are you going to replace it with? Since Ambushing after your dodge ends would be more or less pointless and dodging at that point would be a big glowing purple sign saying 'interrupt me in a second'

>

> You forgot to mention axe.

 

Axe has one impactful skill please don't try to deflect. Answer the question.

[Patrick.2987]

To answere your question i am fine with casting while dodging which is strong already, not moving while dodging, which is strong in jumping puzzles and against torment but stomping ressing while dodging and dodging while beeing stunned encourages bad play. Mirages even eat the stuns on purpose and dodge the followup damage. How do you punish bad play on mirage when you can not shut him down after he misplayed? I am fine with having good mobility even high evade uptime and condi damage.

 

Still i think the condition output is too bursty (no ramp up time at all) and bad plays should get possibly punished. It should be a good sidenoder or roamer like condichrono was, but right now it is just condichrono next level and so are many other specs. Too much reward, too forgiving, high defense, mobility and damage all in one is over the top and bad play gets rewarded.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> To answere your question i am fine with casting while dodging which is strong already, not moving while dodging, which is strong in jumping puzzles and against torment but stomping ressing while dodging and dodging while beeing stunned encourages bad play. Mirages even eat the stuns on purpose and dodge the followup damage. How do you punish bad play on mirage when you can not shut him down after he misplayed? I am fine with having good mobility even high evade uptime and condi damage.

>

> Still i think the condition output is too bursty (no ramp up time at all) and bad plays should get possibly punished. It should be a good sidenoder or roamer like condichrono was, but right now it is just condichrono next level and so are many other specs. Too much reward, too forgiving, high defense, mobility and damage all in one is over the top and bad play gets rewarded.

 

So now we're getting to the meat and potatoes.

 

You don't think they should be able to dodge while CC'd, me too, we're in agreement on this.

You think the condition output of it is too bursty, I agree and I think some of it needs toning down.

The confusion is OK because it's gone in 2-3s and the DoT is almost non existent. I Personally would say torment should either be removed or reduced in stacks, would you agree?

 

I don't agree with the not being able to dodge while stomping and rezzing tbh but I think the above 2 certainly need addressing first then see how it is, would you agree with that?

[Patrick.2987]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > To answere your question i am fine with casting while dodging which is strong already, not moving while dodging, which is strong in jumping puzzles and against torment but stomping ressing while dodging and dodging while beeing stunned encourages bad play. Mirages even eat the stuns on purpose and dodge the followup damage. How do you punish bad play on mirage when you can not shut him down after he misplayed? I am fine with having good mobility even high evade uptime and condi damage.

> >

> > Still i think the condition output is too bursty (no ramp up time at all) and bad plays should get possibly punished. It should be a good sidenoder or roamer like condichrono was, but right now it is just condichrono next level and so are many other specs. Too much reward, too forgiving, high defense, mobility and damage all in one is over the top and bad play gets rewarded.

>

> So now we're getting to the meat and potatoes.

>

> You don't think they should be able to dodge while CC'd, me too, we're in agreement on this.

> You think the condition output of it is too bursty, I agree and I think some of it needs toning down.

> The confusion is OK because it's gone in 2-3s and the DoT is almost non existent. I Personally would say torment should either be removed or reduced in stacks, would you agree?

>

> I don't agree with the not being able to dodge while stomping and rezzing tbh but I think the above 2 certainly need addressing first then see how it is, would you agree with that?

 

Suggestion for torment would be make it not deal much damage when standing still, same as the confusion rework.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > > To answere your question i am fine with casting while dodging which is strong already, not moving while dodging, which is strong in jumping puzzles and against torment but stomping ressing while dodging and dodging while beeing stunned encourages bad play. Mirages even eat the stuns on purpose and dodge the followup damage. How do you punish bad play on mirage when you can not shut him down after he misplayed? I am fine with having good mobility even high evade uptime and condi damage.

> > >

> > > Still i think the condition output is too bursty (no ramp up time at all) and bad plays should get possibly punished. It should be a good sidenoder or roamer like condichrono was, but right now it is just condichrono next level and so are many other specs. Too much reward, too forgiving, high defense, mobility and damage all in one is over the top and bad play gets rewarded.

> >

> > So now we're getting to the meat and potatoes.

> >

> > You don't think they should be able to dodge while CC'd, me too, we're in agreement on this.

> > You think the condition output of it is too bursty, I agree and I think some of it needs toning down.

> > The confusion is OK because it's gone in 2-3s and the DoT is almost non existent. I Personally would say torment should either be removed or reduced in stacks, would you agree?

> >

> > I don't agree with the not being able to dodge while stomping and rezzing tbh but I think the above 2 certainly need addressing first then see how it is, would you agree with that?

>

> Suggestion for torment would be make it not deal much damage when standing still, same as the confusion rework.

 

I was personally thinking of removing it almost entirely from the class except for maybe maim the disillusion trait and replacing the torment with bleed or poison rather than reworking torment at it's functional level. The same thought has crossed my mind though on more than one occasion.

[darwinslittlehelper.7182]

This thread....

 

I think it would be best if ArenaNet looked to suggestions from apharma.3741 and a few others. Condi Mirage IS overpowered, and does need nerfs, but wildly hacking away does not help, and likely will just break other things. Other professions also need adjustment. But for Mesmer-

 

1)I will add my vote to removing torment from their pile of condis and replacing with something else- I don't think it is healthy for the game for one class to have the capacity to put large stacks of both situational punishing conditions on opponents.

 

2)They should not be able to dodge while stunned. Being able to without any investment negates or even rewards poor play.

 

The two above points are a consistant problem with mirage, since beta. Further balancing is difficult with them in place.

 

3)I could go on about other things that I think are a problem, but others may not see it the same way . Full disclosure, I became pretty casual with PVP, and for a number of seasons have been uncaring of rank or placement. I am not a great player by any means, but improve if I play more. I don't afk or try to lose, and if I get tilted, I do something else. Not caring has become easier, because the same problems that has stuck pvp in this place have not been solved or mitigated.

 

To wit- Damage is too high. Defenses are too frequent. Condition clears negate most condition application too easily, invalidating most condition play unless multi- condi burst. Too many skills do far too much, for little cost of investment. Some defenses such as health investment have been massively overwhelmed by powercreep, while evades have become more powerful. Long chains of evading while doing massive damage should not exist. AoE is frequent, easy and ubiquitous. Many, many skills seem to have an AoE or cleave component, just because they do. These problems are not exclusive to Mesmer, but all professions to some degree. TTK is ludicrously short much of the time, and there is not much feedback on what exactly happened. Visual noise is a mess. I have tried to interest others into PvP, people far more invested in this kind of competition than I, but I keep getting some version of what I wrote above. "great basis, good potential- what happened to this game? I would rather play …(insert other pvp) if they can't sort this out"

 

 

If ArenaNet wants the perception of PvP to change, they must be willing to make the big changes to professions and modes. Otherwise, the decline will continue, and the many, many people who could be playing PvP will not be interested.

 

My two cents

 

[BlueCar.1587]

I agree that pretty much every single of the other meta specs is toxic for the game (if it's a single skill like dagger or the sheer amount of boons or dmg) but the thing is that mirage is fundamentally broken because of the way his dodge works, it will never be balanced if dodge is spammable af, one of the main dmg sources and available even while casting other skills like healing skill. (Almost the same goes for deadeye dodge)

[apharma.3741]

> @"darwinslittlehelper.7182" said:

> This thread....

>

> I think it would be best if ArenaNet looked to suggestions from apharma.3741 and a few others. Condi Mirage IS overpowered, and does need nerfs, but wildly hacking away does not help, and likely will just break other things. Other professions also need adjustment. But for Mesmer-

>

> 1)I will add my vote to removing torment from their pile of condis and replacing with something else- I don't think it is healthy for the game for one class to have the capacity to put large stacks of both situational punishing conditions on opponents.

>

> 2)They should not be able to dodge while stunned. Being able to without any investment negates or even rewards poor play.

>

> The two above points are a consistant problem with mirage, since beta. Further balancing is difficult with them in place.

>

> 3)I could go on about other things that I think are a problem, but others may not see it the same way . Full disclosure, I became pretty casual with PVP, and for a number of seasons have been uncaring of rank or placement. I am not a great player by any means, but improve if I play more. I don't afk or try to lose, and if I get tilted, I do something else. Not caring has become easier, because the same problems that has stuck pvp in this place have not been solved or mitigated.

>

> To wit- Damage is too high. Defenses are too frequent. Condition clears negate most condition application too easily, invalidating most condition play unless multi- condi burst. Too many skills do far too much, for little cost of investment. Some defenses such as health investment have been massively overwhelmed by powercreep, while evades have become more powerful. Long chains of evading while doing massive damage should not exist. AoE is frequent, easy and ubiquitous. Many, many skills seem to have an AoE or cleave component, just because they do. These problems are not exclusive to Mesmer, but all professions to some degree. TTK is ludicrously short much of the time, and there is not much feedback on what exactly happened. Visual noise is a mess. I have tried to interest others into PvP, people far more invested in this kind of competition than I, but I keep getting some version of what I wrote above. "great basis, good potential- what happened to this game? I would rather play …(insert other pvp) if they can't sort this out"

>

>

> If ArenaNet wants the perception of PvP to change, they must be willing to make the big changes to professions and modes. Otherwise, the decline will continue, and the many, many people who could be playing PvP will not be interested.

>

> My two cents

>

 

That last part would be good to put in the "Is damage too high?" thread as feedback to the developers.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > 'You've pretty much destroyed it whether you consciously wanted to or not and this isn't me saying everything is fine, mirage is ferpectly balanced, it's me pointing out that you're removing the only thing that defines the spec and makes it any way better than core and would need something else to make it an elite spec changing the way you play.'

> >

> > Why should it be superior to core in the first place? Maybe buff the core lines a bit and make it equal?

>

> Actually what was suggested would make the line worse than any core line on mesmer. I'm all for making it a side step and a different play style but it has to be a different play style which removing mirage cloaks ability to "dodging while stunned / casting / rezzing / stomping / channelling." would do. Think about it, you'd then have a dodge that doesn't move you and gives you ambush skills in the last 0.5s after your dodge.

>

> That's the entire trait line more or less. The utility skills might give some more dodges but considering no-one actually uses any of them except illusionary ambush it's safe to say they're no better than core for what they give.

>

> Either way if you want to remove the ability to essentially do anything while dodging you're going to have to do a fair bit of reworking as that's the core aspect of the elite spec.

 

Which is why I hope next expansion a class can fly or walk through terrain because its a spec design ?

 

Mirage Cloak opens the door to these possibilities you know..

 

I dont fault anyone for defending mirage cloak either because If Ele next expansion was given a skill to summon a cloud to fly on and instantly travel somewhere (dbz reference), I would be saying the same stuff, "its class design, its balanced, theres counters" and the rest of it.

 

ontop of that, Im fully aware that when I play Mirage, Im only playing the spec for the Mirage Cloak funtion of what I listed earlier, I dont chose that spec for Axe or Deception skills or ambush skills, I chose it purely for the Mirage Cloak function so I do agree that making Mirage Cloak a cosmetic will butcher the class design but it will also make the class a side step in choice rather than a complete upgrade to core/chrono..

 

balance is a tricky subject... But it should be black and white when it comes to combat parameters that everyother player and spec is refined too and built around.

[Shadow Order.7258]

> @"Aktium.9506" said:

> > @"Patrick.2987" said:

> > Why should it be superior to core in the first place? Maybe buff the core lines a bit and make it equal?

> Remember when Anet said Elite Specs were supposed to be sidegrades? =)

>

 

That shit don't sell expansions

[Burnfall.9573]

(No mesmer player(s) is/are not the creator nor the designer of mesmer. They shall not to be held responsible nor to be blamed for mesmer toxicity)

--Enjoy video--((not mine))

 

'On this video you see me playing the condi mirage aka i am not the best mesmer player!'

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> (No mesmer player(s) is/are not the creator nor the designer of mesmer. They shall not to be held responsible nor to be blamed for mesmer toxicity)

> --Enjoy video--((not mine))

>

> 'On this video you see me playing the condi mirage aka i am not the best mesmer player!'

>

>

 

The best part of this vid, is when he dies to a 360 Maul

 

Had me rollin

[Daishi.6027]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > To quote A-net: "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements." The defense options aren't going anywhere.

> > They will continue to tone down the damage, and people will continue to die and cry because they don't outplay it.

>

> i didn't know they said that but that's the exact vibe the concept of a "mirage" gives and at the same time the class has no protection or stability or vigor any more so if they were to nerf it even further it would just stop working completely. The only good defense mirage has is taking the chaos traitline and then it has no damage instead, it's a high risk high reward and not low risk high reward like people attempt to imply

 

I disagree with Chaos line being the only good defense.

 

For long term reliable survivability at the cost of even more offense sure, but with the dueling + mirage lines alone you have you have the tools to outplay anyone if you know what you are doing, however vice versa everyone who knows what they are doing has the tools to outplay you. Because as you've seen and have probably noted, the options available aren't as vast as other people make it out to be when complaining. (and have even less than some other builds, if you are really adept at dodging a Daredevil will get hit even less, and be harder to lock down.)

 

Cooldowns almost never line up one to one, nor should they. But with the use of terrain, and mobility when baiting and avoiding enemy "I win" buttons you even any playing field.

Just as a tip and an example for my point, if I end up in a 1v1 with a mirage as my war, if they have already used their blink I can with with rampage after forcing out jaunts with things like whirling attack. If they try to run with mirage leap I will catch them and they will have no dodges, even with energy it's not enough and I win. If they face me head on, unless I have really low HP because I failed to dodge their bursts I win. Of course this means vs a fresh opponent I have to actively make them use their blink and at least one jaunt.

 

There are a lot of victory conditions vs typical mirages that many people don't realize, if you learn what they are you can play around it, and if your opponent is smart they will play around you while you're trying to play around their victory condition.

[dominik.9721]

 

How do we decide that mirage is op?

Because people like Flänby would be gold again without mirage and irrelevant since 2012 like they used to be.

 

Btw. the only reason you don't see so much mirages in top 10 leaderboard or mAT is because nearly every single good mesmer main does not play anymore.

If Misha, Frostball and Hesleth would still play consistently, they would sit top 10 every single season and would win every single mAT like they used to win every single ESL-tournement.

 

But what is left in the game is players like you who 1v3s random players easily on far due to the fact that mirage is completly broken but complains about core guard because you are unable to execute a single proper dodge 3 seconds after focus 5.