EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > Ok, so, like I basically had to ask in the other thread that got Necro'ed up today, what is _the one class we're all allowed to play for your so called perfect world?_ We can and should be allowed to play all classes in all modes with as much balance as possible and that is what I would like to envision future balances and e-specs to be like. Curtailing of broken unhealthy builds like perma invis deadeye using quickness + death judgment + 1-shot backstab that is contesting keep and killing players running out of spawn with zero tells, high condi spike with high reapplication rate mirage which takes 8-9 condi management tools to break even, longest range Soulbeast with insane mobility... These classes need more group/aoe related skills for their future e-specs to help integrate them better into zergs, while taking some hits to their individual spike/survival skills. And Vice-Versa, classes like Necros, Guards etc. need future e-specs that help improve their roaming/dueling capacity while taking some hits to their group/aoe related skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > Why are you roaming with what we call a sitting duck? > To create videos to nerf other specs to become sitting ducks too to be able to do what this game is created for: fighting others! > > Imagine a game where everyone can run away from everything. > > Deadeye and soulbeast defending players need a world of deadeyes and soulbeasts where no one can kill each other until they realize how ignorant they are and how much "fun" the game is for their "victims". DE is on the nerf train at least, and most of the people defending it are not esteemed thief players... mostly the opposite. To be honest, I think the matchup is only as bad as it is now (lowered damage, blockable DJ last patch) just because of the SR mobility/sustain nerfs. It probably should and always will favor the DE, but being unable to flicker shroud and really capitalize on 6s Charge is the major player here imho. Tried to go to ranger forums to reason with people. My literally-factual post was removed and infracted for offending people. Almost everyone there is completely belligerent that soulbeast is not just balanced, but downright underpowered and really hard to play. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ I've taken the mindset of not really caring to have fun in-game anymore because honestly it's just really not worthwhile. I'll surf zergs if I'm really bored, but really nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > Ok, so, like I basically had to ask in the other thread that got Necro'ed up today, what is _the one class we're all allowed to play for your so called perfect world?_ > > We can and should be allowed to play all classes in all modes with as much balance as possible and that is what I would like to envision future balances and e-specs to be like. I too would like a unicorn and single payer health care for all. Look, I like roaming, but even I know WvW and PvP are _team game modes._ If I want pure solo, I take it to PvE and don't ask for everyone and everything to be nerfed cause I don't like their fun. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Tried to go to ranger forums to reason with people. > > My literally-factual post was removed and infracted for offending people. > Almost everyone there is completely belligerent that soulbeast is not just balanced, but downright underpowered and really hard to play. > **What?** I play Soulbeast more than Mesmer these days now just cause the rotation is stupid easy and I'm getting to old for dance dance revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 hmmm directions are unclear, better nerf necros again across the board in all 3 game modes, PVE, PvP, and WvW. and disguise them as buffs but in reality they are nerfs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > * Deadeye using quickness + death judgement from invis = undodgeable > * Deadeye was contesting keep and backstabbing people running out of spawn from invis which is just unhealthy for the game And the deadeye also instantly died when someone else sneezed on it - that's why you rallied. This video shows nothing of the unbalances of WvW. Quite the contrary, it shows why those builds are totally ineffective: - The deadeye died on kill. Any roamer class of sufficient skill could have blown him up in a 1v1 just as he could them and he would have died if a group looked at him wrong. Is so much stealth annoying? Yes. But they're not capping keeps while stealthed, are they? - The mirage couldnt take you down fast enough before reinforcements came, because he's using slowkitten condis which are only good against solo classes without condi cleanse, necros not so much and they are about as good against groups as a tormented wet noodle. A power mirage would probably have beaten you down to half hp before the condi mirage even started attacking you and stomped before they arrive, but I digress. - The soulbeast ran away from you because he probably knew he would last approximately 3 seconds in melee, especially if he was frontloaded with damage and have little cleanse. Now, you where on a necro so you couldnt give real chase and he is mobile enough to get away true, but had he faced another roamer like say a mirage, thief, rev, another ranger, DH, well literally anything with decent amount of skill and teleport skills, he would probably have had a fight. Your video is showing the balance of how WvW truly works, not the imbalance. In any situation if you had a partner they wouldnt have had a chance. That's how the ever present need for players work, that's how group combat is designed and that's why WvW is WvW and not sPvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > * Deadeye was contesting keep and backstabbing people running out of spawn from invis which is just unhealthy for the game I've seen this been done since release... Contesting keep is a valid strategy to keep the ennemy zerg worried about Keep and create some opportunity to take keep. While killing people in this open field FFA that WvW is, have always been a thing. Now, the fact that the thief do both at the same time increase even more the strategical value of this thief. I don't think you can say that it's "unhealthy" for the game, it's definitely a valid strategy. This thief work positively for it's server success even if it's extremly annoying for the players that face him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > Quickness death judgement from invis? > Quickness back-stab from invis? > Needs balancing. This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > * Deadeye was contesting keep and backstabbing people running out of spawn from invis which is just unhealthy for the game > > I've seen this been done since release... Contesting keep is a valid strategy to keep the ennemy zerg worried about Keep and create some opportunity to take keep. While killing people in this open field FFA that WvW is, have always been a thing. > > Now, the fact that the thief do both at the same time increase even more the strategical value of this thief. I don't think you can say that it's "unhealthy" for the game, it's definitely a valid strategy. This thief work positively for it's server success even if it's extremly annoying for the players that face him. Which is why we send roamers after such a target - one class/build creates the need for another class/build to counter it, with someone of equal or better skills or backed up by a party. Its the same as meta zerg vs meta zerg, just smaller scale. Over the years, the amount of "jobs" in WvW have just gotten less and less. We already have sentries spotting players, tower having constant balloons and automaticly upgrading T3 keeps that can practicly be left alone because nothing short of a zoneblob bother to take them, while the expontially increasing PPT means the dominating server can lean back and chill. Whats next? AI fighting for us so we can just watch? At least fights would be balanced, I guess. Unless the AI favors mirage. It probably does. Mirage OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"syszery.1592" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > Needs balancing. > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) But imagine if he did it to me in the open with no NPCs around? I would still likely have died if he just went back into invis and tried again :o Thing is we can read the circumstances of my video but it doesn't make what the perma invis DE can do okay. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? Its like...so what if I won? This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > Needs balancing. > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > Its like...so what if I won? > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > Its like...so what if I won? > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. Thiefs do just that since release of the game. That's what 6 years already? I don't understand what bother you here, being one shot by a thief coming out of stealth without tell is something that's been here since forever. It cannot have suddenly become a huge gamebreaking issue. Is it the fact that we are out of a long period were conditions were dominant and that power now feel overwhelmingly faster at killing things? Burst is the purpose of power damages afterall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > Thiefs do just that since release of the game. That's what 6 years already? I don't understand what bother you here, being one shot by a thief coming out of stealth without tell is something that's been here since forever. It cannot have suddenly become a huge gamebreaking issue. Is it the fact that we are out of a long period were conditions were dominant and that power now feel overwhelmingly faster at killing things? Burst is the purpose of power damages afterall. Oh but a DE isn't a one trick pony now like the old thief. He can alternate between a melee high spike Backstab with no tells, or a quickness + Death Judgement high spike from range that personally given my ping (avg 300) is not dodgeable - I'm not sure if others with better ping can dodge that. Also, he re-enters stealth easily, has better mobility to dis-engage, and can even remove reveals that are already extremely limited on other classes. This isn't a do or die 1-shot thief of old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. To each their own I guess. Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. HOT wasn't too bad. But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > Thiefs do just that since release of the game. That's what 6 years already? I don't understand what bother you here, being one shot by a thief coming out of stealth without tell is something that's been here since forever. It cannot have suddenly become a huge gamebreaking issue. Is it the fact that we are out of a long period were conditions were dominant and that power now feel overwhelmingly faster at killing things? Burst is the purpose of power damages afterall. > > Oh but a DE isn't a one trick pony now like the old thief. > He can alternate between a melee high spike Backstab with no tells, or a quickness + Death Judgement high spike from range that personally given my ping (avg 300) is not dodgeable - I'm not sure if others with better ping can dodge that. > Also, he re-enters stealth easily, has better mobility to dis-engage, and can even remove reveals that are already extremely limited on other classes. > This isn't a do or die 1-shot thief of old. But they are "do or die". They unleash all their damages betting an a quick down and are forced to retreat if it doesn't work. Nothing changed. Perma stealth thiefs existed way before DE. No, to be more accurate DE let us breath a bit because they don't take advantage on CC like the "old thief". I don't miss being CCed by basilic venom on the thief first strike of the burst. But maybe you do? In WvW, as a profession optimized for roaming with an inate high mobility and high access to disengage mechanism, the thief can build glassy. On another hand, the necromancer being inately bad at mobility and disengaging shouldn't even begin to think about building glassy in WvW. I'm sorry but this asura necromancer of yours that got 1 shot deserved it's death due to the fact that it's build wasn't adapted to it's environment. A core thief of the old days would have had the same results and we all know that. A core thief of the old days wouldn't have had issue to re-enter stealth, yeah, there is this 3 seconds reveal that can be annoying but in the old day, there wasn't this annoying "reveal debuff". It might be bothersome but the reality is that thiefs have had this gameplay since forever. Players in the old days adapted themselve to the "thief threat", players of the old days weren't fool enough to wander WvW defensively naked (no toughness/vitality) when they weren't using professions adapted to playing glassy. Like I said, there is nothing new and gamebreaking in the DE, just the same old thief gameplay with a bit more emphasis on retreating and a bit less on control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > To each their own I guess. > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > HOT wasn't too bad. > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. Sorry, still not seeing it. EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzurag.7506 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 but these builds are glass cannons and are easily killed when focused /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylosi.6503 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Most of the players in WvW don't roam, they zerg (be it with public com or as a guild), hence the most broken classes in WvW are Firebrand, Herald and Scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NecroSummonsMors.7816 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Nothing gonna change about DE, soulbeast or condi mirage, so keep that in mind that they've the upper hand vs necro on open field. As an hardcore core necro player, yes i roam with it in www, I've a big advice use the shroud 5 reveal please. It's so usefull especially vs deadeye. There a point in the video where you get the deadeye with the mark of chillblains, it was worth it to try and reveal him, because he will one hit your shroud anyway. Btw you did well vs the condi mirage, imho you would have killed him anyway. For what concert soulbeast, long ranged projectiles are a pain since the beginning of the game, dont chase ranger you already looking for an unfair fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > To each their own I guess. > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. Against a Perma invis DE? Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. Fun? No, its dumb. The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said: > Nothing gonna change about DE, soulbeast or condi mirage, so keep that in mind that they've the upper hand vs necro on open field. > As an hardcore core necro player, yes i roam with it in www, I've a big advice use the shroud 5 reveal please. It's so usefull especially vs deadeye. There a point in the video where you get the deadeye with the mark of chillblains, it was worth it to try and reveal him, because he will one hit your shroud anyway. > Btw you did well vs the condi mirage, imho you would have killed him anyway. For what concert soulbeast, long ranged projectiles are a pain since the beginning of the game, dont chase ranger you already looking for an unfair fight. I try not to use shroud 5 until he has at least shadow stepped once because otherwise he can break out of its range easily and remove reveal. Even then, when I fight better DEs, getting shroud 5 on them after their shadow step is also useless because they just spam rifle 4 twice till they are out of range of your shroud 5 again :'( So much mobility, stealth, range and DPS on a single class...no wonder I'm more attracted to zerging these days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > Against a Perma invis DE? > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > Fun? No, its dumb. > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. Why can't we have balanced AND fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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