EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > Thiefs do just that since release of the game. That's what 6 years already? I don't understand what bother you here, being one shot by a thief coming out of stealth without tell is something that's been here since forever. It cannot have suddenly become a huge gamebreaking issue. Is it the fact that we are out of a long period were conditions were dominant and that power now feel overwhelmingly faster at killing things? Burst is the purpose of power damages afterall. > > > > Oh but a DE isn't a one trick pony now like the old thief. > > He can alternate between a melee high spike Backstab with no tells, or a quickness + Death Judgement high spike from range that personally given my ping (avg 300) is not dodgeable - I'm not sure if others with better ping can dodge that. > > Also, he re-enters stealth easily, has better mobility to dis-engage, and can even remove reveals that are already extremely limited on other classes. > > This isn't a do or die 1-shot thief of old. > > But they are "do or die". They unleash all their damages betting an a quick down and are forced to retreat if it doesn't work. Nothing changed. Perma stealth thiefs existed way before DE. No, to be more accurate DE let us breath a bit because they don't take advantage on CC like the "old thief". I don't miss being CCed by basilic venom on the thief first strike of the burst. But maybe you do? > > In WvW, as a profession optimized for roaming with an inate high mobility and high access to disengage mechanism, the thief can build glassy. On another hand, the necromancer being inately bad at mobility and disengaging shouldn't even begin to think about building glassy in WvW. I'm sorry but this asura necromancer of yours that got 1 shot deserved it's death due to the fact that it's build wasn't adapted to it's environment. A core thief of the old days would have had the same results and we all know that. A core thief of the old days wouldn't have had issue to re-enter stealth, yeah, there is this 3 seconds reveal that can be annoying but in the old day, there wasn't this annoying "reveal debuff". > > It might be bothersome but the reality is that thiefs have had this gameplay since forever. Players in the old days adapted themselve to the "thief threat", players of the old days weren't fool enough to wander WvW defensively naked (no toughness/vitality) when they weren't using professions adapted to playing glassy. Like I said, there is nothing new and gamebreaking in the DE, just the same old thief gameplay with a bit more emphasis on retreating and a bit less on control. There was this post in the Thief's forum that explains why 1-shot DE is not the same as 1-shot Thief or DD. I think he explained things very well. 1-shot DE takes a lot less risk compared to Thief or DD. Its a bit lengthy but you could read it if you have the time. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/792448/#Comment_792448 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? Probably because for ~~some~~ most people _fun_ means that they win. And this is actually not what balance means in my opinion at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are damn near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > There was this post in the Thief's forum that explains why 1-shot DE is not the same as 1-shot Thief or DD. > I think he explained things very well. > 1-shot DE takes a lot less risk compared to Thief or DD. > Its a bit lengthy but you could read it if you have the time. > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/792448/#Comment_792448 A lengthy post indeed, but very shallow. This comment generalize core and daredevil by only argumenting on daredevil, it's almost funny. A core thief or even a Daredevil with a minimum of brain matter will abuse it's movement skill/use CnD to retreat when needed. The whole argument that leaping in a smoke field is "harder", is just some smoke powder in the eyes of the readers. As for quickness, it's value is there for skills with "cast time", skills that core and Daredevil don't have. And, honnestly, there is little difference between being one shot from stealth with and without quickness. If anything, the mark appearing on your feets tell your opponent got a 4s window of quickness, you know what's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. > > Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). > > My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are kitten near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. > > Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. I like that you mentioned a hard counter (good spellbreakers) against your hybrid mirage that you feel you would have no chance of winning against. However there is a difference from what you guys are suffering from compared to what a Necro suffers from. You guys have a possibility to build differently and still put up a good fight with a fair chance to win. Maybe a ratio of 60 to 40 in the spellbreaker's favor? Not many classes suffer from **extreme hard counters** like a Necro does and those who never really played a Necro won't really understand that feeling of helplessness. Extreme hard counters that Necro suffers from would be range and mobile classes. There is just **nothing** reliable in our kit that can allow us to build and combat this form of extreme hard counters on more even grounds. Our ratio in a fight against a range/mobile class like a good Soulbeast/Deadeye is at best 90 to 10 in their favor. **Before HOT and POF**, things were all fine with only 1 class, Rangers, at 1500 range (1800 in reality) with good mobility but not overly mobile until its impossible for a Necro to bring them into range. **During HOT**, things were still fine because Reapers with 7 seconds shroud flash + dash was good enough to keep pace with the still only 1500+ range Druid that had no real boost to its mobility (staff came at a cost of another mobility option and/or did less range damage than bow). **During POF**, Reapers 7 seconds shroud flash gets nerfed, effectively destroying the best mobility tool that necros had. Scourge itself and its portal was an even worse flop for roaming. And to add salt to injury, **Soulbeasts gained extra mobility via their pet merges with more DPS from range**, and **a new 1500 range high DPS Deadeye was introduced with more mobility added to their weapon**. Classes suffer from varying degrees of hard counters but have options to build and make the fight more favorable without things turning into an extreme hard counter. Necros? Range and Mobility extremely hard counters us and the best we can build for is a fighting ratio of at best 10 to 90 in the current POF environment. And no, don't tell me to use another class because Necros are not meant for roaming. And no, don't tell me to use LOS when every other class can make fights more favorable with their existing skill-set but a Necro is forced to use the environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. > > > > Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). > > > > My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are kitten near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. > > > > Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. > > I like that you mentioned a hard counter (good spellbreakers) against your hybrid mirage that you feel you would have no chance of winning against. > However there is a difference from what you guys are suffering from compared to what a Necro suffers from. > You guys have a possibility to build differently and still put up a good fight with a fair chance to win. > Maybe a ratio of 60 to 40 in the spellbreaker's favor? > > Not many classes suffer from **extreme hard counters** like a Necro does and those who never really played a Necro won't really understand that feeling of helplessness. > Extreme hard counters that Necro suffers from would be range and mobile classes. > There is just **nothing** reliable in our kit that can allow us to build and combat this form of extreme hard counters on more even grounds. > Our ratio in a fight against a range/mobile class like a good Soulbeast/Deadeye is at best 90 to 10 in their favor. > > **Before HOT and POF**, things were all fine with only 1 class, Rangers, at 1500 range (1800 in reality) with good mobility but not overly mobile until its impossible for a Necro to bring them into range. > **During HOT**, things were still fine because Reapers with 7 seconds shroud flash + dash was good enough to keep pace with the still only 1500+ range Druid that had no real boost to its mobility (staff came at a cost of another mobility option and/or did less range damage than bow). > **During POF**, Reapers 7 seconds shroud flash gets nerfed, effectively destroying the best mobility tool that necros had. Scourge itself and its portal was an even worse flop for roaming. And to add salt to injury, **Soulbeasts gained extra mobility via their pet merges with more DPS from range**, and **a new 1500 range high DPS Deadeye was introduced with more mobility added to their weapon**. > > Classes suffer from varying degrees of hard counters but have options to build and make the fight more favorable without things turning into an extreme hard counter. > Necros? Range and Mobility extremely hard counters us and the best we can build for is a fighting ratio of at best 10 to 90 in the current POF environment. > Careful, this thread might derail into a necromancers need buffs thread. Which again is a completely different issue than certain classes being stronger at roaming. Want to ask that Souldbeast or Deadeye (we can even expand to ALL thief, deadeye, daredevil, ranger, druid and soulbeast builds) how they are fairing in WvW group content? Yes, certain classes excel at different things by their very basic design. This has been the case since release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. > > > > > > Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). > > > > > > My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are kitten near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. > > > > > > Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. > > > > I like that you mentioned a hard counter (good spellbreakers) against your hybrid mirage that you feel you would have no chance of winning against. > > However there is a difference from what you guys are suffering from compared to what a Necro suffers from. > > You guys have a possibility to build differently and still put up a good fight with a fair chance to win. > > Maybe a ratio of 60 to 40 in the spellbreaker's favor? > > > > Not many classes suffer from **extreme hard counters** like a Necro does and those who never really played a Necro won't really understand that feeling of helplessness. > > Extreme hard counters that Necro suffers from would be range and mobile classes. > > There is just **nothing** reliable in our kit that can allow us to build and combat this form of extreme hard counters on more even grounds. > > Our ratio in a fight against a range/mobile class like a good Soulbeast/Deadeye is at best 90 to 10 in their favor. > > > > **Before HOT and POF**, things were all fine with only 1 class, Rangers, at 1500 range (1800 in reality) with good mobility but not overly mobile until its impossible for a Necro to bring them into range. > > **During HOT**, things were still fine because Reapers with 7 seconds shroud flash + dash was good enough to keep pace with the still only 1500+ range Druid that had no real boost to its mobility (staff came at a cost of another mobility option and/or did less range damage than bow). > > **During POF**, Reapers 7 seconds shroud flash gets nerfed, effectively destroying the best mobility tool that necros had. Scourge itself and its portal was an even worse flop for roaming. And to add salt to injury, **Soulbeasts gained extra mobility via their pet merges with more DPS from range**, and **a new 1500 range high DPS Deadeye was introduced with more mobility added to their weapon**. > > > > Classes suffer from varying degrees of hard counters but have options to build and make the fight more favorable without things turning into an extreme hard counter. > > Necros? Range and Mobility extremely hard counters us and the best we can build for is a fighting ratio of at best 10 to 90 in the current POF environment. > > > > Careful, this thread might derail into a necromancers need buffs thread. > > Which again is a completely different issue than certain classes being stronger at roaming. Want to ask that Souldbeast or Deadeye (we can even expand to ALL thief, deadeye, daredevil, ranger, druid and soulbeast builds) how they are fairing in WvW group content? Soulbeast and even Deadeyes have found a spot in guild groups. EA guild from Kaineng runs double minstrel deadeyes for boon rips and smoke field invis blasting. And EA is a top guild. Many guilds have also begun to incorporate Soulbeast in their comps ableit in lower numbers. Having said that, I do agree that they need more buffs to their skill kit when it comes to guild/zerg fights. POF elite specs should have addressed that instead of giving them even more OP roaming specs. Just like how POF elite specs should have given Necros a stronger roaming spec instead of another OP zerg spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. > > > > > > > > Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). > > > > > > > > My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are kitten near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. > > > > > > > > Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. > > > > > > I like that you mentioned a hard counter (good spellbreakers) against your hybrid mirage that you feel you would have no chance of winning against. > > > However there is a difference from what you guys are suffering from compared to what a Necro suffers from. > > > You guys have a possibility to build differently and still put up a good fight with a fair chance to win. > > > Maybe a ratio of 60 to 40 in the spellbreaker's favor? > > > > > > Not many classes suffer from **extreme hard counters** like a Necro does and those who never really played a Necro won't really understand that feeling of helplessness. > > > Extreme hard counters that Necro suffers from would be range and mobile classes. > > > There is just **nothing** reliable in our kit that can allow us to build and combat this form of extreme hard counters on more even grounds. > > > Our ratio in a fight against a range/mobile class like a good Soulbeast/Deadeye is at best 90 to 10 in their favor. > > > > > > **Before HOT and POF**, things were all fine with only 1 class, Rangers, at 1500 range (1800 in reality) with good mobility but not overly mobile until its impossible for a Necro to bring them into range. > > > **During HOT**, things were still fine because Reapers with 7 seconds shroud flash + dash was good enough to keep pace with the still only 1500+ range Druid that had no real boost to its mobility (staff came at a cost of another mobility option and/or did less range damage than bow). > > > **During POF**, Reapers 7 seconds shroud flash gets nerfed, effectively destroying the best mobility tool that necros had. Scourge itself and its portal was an even worse flop for roaming. And to add salt to injury, **Soulbeasts gained extra mobility via their pet merges with more DPS from range**, and **a new 1500 range high DPS Deadeye was introduced with more mobility added to their weapon**. > > > > > > Classes suffer from varying degrees of hard counters but have options to build and make the fight more favorable without things turning into an extreme hard counter. > > > Necros? Range and Mobility extremely hard counters us and the best we can build for is a fighting ratio of at best 10 to 90 in the current POF environment. > > > > > > > Careful, this thread might derail into a necromancers need buffs thread. > > > > Which again is a completely different issue than certain classes being stronger at roaming. Want to ask that Souldbeast or Deadeye (we can even expand to ALL thief, deadeye, daredevil, ranger, druid and soulbeast builds) how they are fairing in WvW group content? > > Soulbeast and even Deadeyes have found a spot in guild groups. > EA guild from Kaineng runs double minstrel deadeyes for boon rips and smoke field invis blasting. > And EA is a top guild. > Many guilds have also begun to incorporate Soulbeast in their comps ableit in lower numbers. > > Having said that, I do agree that they need more buffs to their skill kit when it comes to guild/zerg fights. > POF elite specs should have addressed that instead of giving them even more OP roaming specs. > Just like how POF elite specs should have given Necros a stronger roaming spec instead of another OP zerg spec. You are still missing the point, you are calling other classes unbalanced based on a completely skewed argument. If you wanted to argue that necromancer needs more movement, then do that. Instead you are arguing that classes and builds which counter necromancer should get nerfed. Did you see Dawdler.8521 demand nerfs to spellbreaker? No, he explained how the class of choice gets hard countered and accepts that fact. Now if your class hard counters everyone else (Soulbeast is coming close to that), then we can talk. Until then, please make rational arguments based on what your goal is. If you want necomancer movement improved, then ask for that but don't take it out on other classes which just happen to be strong in that specific area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylpheed.8163 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. > > Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). > > Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. Rose tinted glasses? Uhh, no.. Just because they were strong and people complained doesn't mean much compared to now. Tbh roaming is dead due to power creep for any non-meta roaming builds. You can win if you're good at your class and the opponent is mediocre, but if they're on the same skill level or better you simply can't win the majority of the time. Pre HoT power creep, my personal non-meta builds were still able to fight or sustain fights regardless of what I was playing against (PU mesmer, thief as you stated). Was it maybe 25~40% less optimal than playing meta? Sure, but I still had a good chance at winning or having my enemy ooc through player skill. Now if you don't run the optimal meta build you're at like a 50~90% disadvantage due to power creep. One mistake? Missed a dodge? You pretty much lost the fight against any decent player because you're going to lose a majority of your hp. Let's not forget there's hardly any counter play for 5k 1500 range auto attacks for a lot of classes that aren't meta mobility machines with built in sustain and invuln/blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah its really just the same things now. De/dd, mirage, spellbreaker, holo. Very strong roamers now and in the past. The druid during HoT IMO also matches the soulbeast, its just two very different styles (sb being dps, druid sustain). > > > > > > > > > > My personal bane when running on a hybrid mirage? Spellbreakers. Really good holos I can "match" (even if they kill me it feels like I *could* kill them), really good dd/dd can get lucky but I **know** I can beat them in a head on 1v1, really good soulbeasts with melee is similar to holos. But the really good spellbreakers... Dear lord they are kitten near immortal and can kill me by sneezing at me. I know a few that has just had me turn around instead of dueling them again because I **know** I dont stand a chance. And thats with me running a high sustain build that can curbstomp other mirages, condi mirages are generally far below scourge in terms of threat level. > > > > > > > > > > Despite the above though... I really only meet a few this capable per matchup. In the current one, I know of a single spellbreaker that I hesitate to engage solo. Going 2v1, 3v1 etc against that bane is enough to win unless my allies are weaksauce. in which case you'll probably see a "roaming spellbreaker outmanned" video on youtube followed by claims of a class being OP. Thats WvW "balance" for you. Cherry picked victories. > > > > > > > > I like that you mentioned a hard counter (good spellbreakers) against your hybrid mirage that you feel you would have no chance of winning against. > > > > However there is a difference from what you guys are suffering from compared to what a Necro suffers from. > > > > You guys have a possibility to build differently and still put up a good fight with a fair chance to win. > > > > Maybe a ratio of 60 to 40 in the spellbreaker's favor? > > > > > > > > Not many classes suffer from **extreme hard counters** like a Necro does and those who never really played a Necro won't really understand that feeling of helplessness. > > > > Extreme hard counters that Necro suffers from would be range and mobile classes. > > > > There is just **nothing** reliable in our kit that can allow us to build and combat this form of extreme hard counters on more even grounds. > > > > Our ratio in a fight against a range/mobile class like a good Soulbeast/Deadeye is at best 90 to 10 in their favor. > > > > > > > > **Before HOT and POF**, things were all fine with only 1 class, Rangers, at 1500 range (1800 in reality) with good mobility but not overly mobile until its impossible for a Necro to bring them into range. > > > > **During HOT**, things were still fine because Reapers with 7 seconds shroud flash + dash was good enough to keep pace with the still only 1500+ range Druid that had no real boost to its mobility (staff came at a cost of another mobility option and/or did less range damage than bow). > > > > **During POF**, Reapers 7 seconds shroud flash gets nerfed, effectively destroying the best mobility tool that necros had. Scourge itself and its portal was an even worse flop for roaming. And to add salt to injury, **Soulbeasts gained extra mobility via their pet merges with more DPS from range**, and **a new 1500 range high DPS Deadeye was introduced with more mobility added to their weapon**. > > > > > > > > Classes suffer from varying degrees of hard counters but have options to build and make the fight more favorable without things turning into an extreme hard counter. > > > > Necros? Range and Mobility extremely hard counters us and the best we can build for is a fighting ratio of at best 10 to 90 in the current POF environment. > > > > > > > > > > Careful, this thread might derail into a necromancers need buffs thread. > > > > > > Which again is a completely different issue than certain classes being stronger at roaming. Want to ask that Souldbeast or Deadeye (we can even expand to ALL thief, deadeye, daredevil, ranger, druid and soulbeast builds) how they are fairing in WvW group content? > > > > Soulbeast and even Deadeyes have found a spot in guild groups. > > EA guild from Kaineng runs double minstrel deadeyes for boon rips and smoke field invis blasting. > > And EA is a top guild. > > Many guilds have also begun to incorporate Soulbeast in their comps ableit in lower numbers. > > > > Having said that, I do agree that they need more buffs to their skill kit when it comes to guild/zerg fights. > > POF elite specs should have addressed that instead of giving them even more OP roaming specs. > > Just like how POF elite specs should have given Necros a stronger roaming spec instead of another OP zerg spec. > > You are still missing the point, you are calling other classes unbalanced based on a completely skewed argument. If you wanted to argue that necromancer needs more movement, then do that. Instead you are arguing that classes and builds which counter necromancer should get nerfed. > > Did you see Dawdler.8521 demand nerfs to spellbreaker? No, he explained how the class of choice gets hard countered and accepts that fact. Now if your class hard counters everyone else (Soulbeast is coming close to that), then we can talk. Until then, please make rational arguments based on what your goal is. If you want necomancer movement improved, then ask for that but don't take it out on other classes which just happen to be strong in that specific area. I was just explaining to him that his form of hard counter is not the same form of extreme hard counter that a Necro goes through. I'm not using it to support why the 3 OP classes need to be balanced. You're right that I am derailing the thread with that. It doesn't make my main post about these classes needing to be balanced invalid though. I can fight condi mirages no problem. But doesn't mean that a class/build can fight it makes it an okay class. I added mirages into the top 3 OP classes not because I can't fight them. I can. But they are just overtuned, similar to how Reapers were overtuned during HOT with the 3 bleeds on chill trait before it was nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Sylpheed.8163" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > > > > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > > > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > > > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > > > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > > > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > > > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > > > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > > > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. > > > > Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). > > > > Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. > > Rose tinted glasses? Uhh, no.. Just because they were strong and people complained doesn't mean much compared to now. Tbh roaming is dead due to power creep for any non-meta roaming builds. You can win if you're good at your class and the opponent is mediocre, but if they're on the same skill level or better you simply can't win the majority of the time. Pre HoT power creep, my personal non-meta builds were still able to fight or sustain fights regardless of what I was playing against (PU mesmer, thief as you stated). Was it maybe 25~40% less optimal than playing meta? Sure, but I still had a good chance at winning or having my enemy ooc through player skill. Now if you don't run the optimal meta build you're at like a 50~90% disadvantage due to power creep. One mistake? Missed a dodge? You pretty much lost the fight against any decent player because you're going to lose a majority of your hp. Let's not forget there's hardly any counter play for 5k 1500 range auto attacks for a lot of classes that aren't meta mobility machines with built in sustain and invuln/blocks. All of what you described can be attributed way more to the maturity of the player base and availability of outside guides and builds, then power creep. Don't get me wrong, power creep certainly has affected the game (it's not unique to any 1 class though). The fact that people go to metabattle and pick up a flavor of the month build for roaming today though is not something affected by in game balance. As far as the complaint thread, they were just as dramatic back then as they are now, so there is certainly no difference in that area. That's not even getting into the entire pre condition damage era in vanilla or the only condition damage era after. People have been whining always, it's in some people's nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Sylpheed.8163" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > > > > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > > > > > > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > > > > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > > > > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > > > > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > > > > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > > > > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > > > > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > > > > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. > > > > > > Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. > > > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). > > > > > > Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. > > > > Rose tinted glasses? Uhh, no.. Just because they were strong and people complained doesn't mean much compared to now. Tbh roaming is dead due to power creep for any non-meta roaming builds. You can win if you're good at your class and the opponent is mediocre, but if they're on the same skill level or better you simply can't win the majority of the time. Pre HoT power creep, my personal non-meta builds were still able to fight or sustain fights regardless of what I was playing against (PU mesmer, thief as you stated). Was it maybe 25~40% less optimal than playing meta? Sure, but I still had a good chance at winning or having my enemy ooc through player skill. Now if you don't run the optimal meta build you're at like a 50~90% disadvantage due to power creep. One mistake? Missed a dodge? You pretty much lost the fight against any decent player because you're going to lose a majority of your hp. Let's not forget there's hardly any counter play for 5k 1500 range auto attacks for a lot of classes that aren't meta mobility machines with built in sustain and invuln/blocks. > > All of what you described can be attributed way more to the maturity of the player base and availability of outside guides and builds, then power creep. > > Don't get me wrong, power creep certainly has affected the game (it's not unique to any 1 class though). The fact that people go to metabattle and pick up a flavor of the month build for roaming today though is not something affected by in game balance. > > As far as the complaint thread, they were just as dramatic back then as they are now, so there is certainly no difference in that area. That's not even getting into the entire pre condition damage era in vanilla or the only condition damage era after. People have been whining always, it's in some people's nature. Classes who have always been princes and princesses of the roaming scene, staying in their diamond palaces, put on pedestals and always been looking down on the other less-blessed class, hold on to their ideals of being above the silly squabbles and rages of the commoners. Its like a rich man telling a poor man, money is not the most important thing in life, and scoffs at those low-lifes who struggle and complain daily about the lack of money. Yes, the rich man may be right, but standing at the lofty height built by his piles of gold, it is just a reaction that lacks 'putting himself in the shoes of others'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Sylpheed.8163" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > > > > > > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > > > > > > > > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > > > > > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > > > > > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > > > > > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > > > > > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > > > > > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > > > > > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > > > > > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. > > > > > > > > Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. > > > > > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). > > > > > > > > Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. > > > > > > Rose tinted glasses? Uhh, no.. Just because they were strong and people complained doesn't mean much compared to now. Tbh roaming is dead due to power creep for any non-meta roaming builds. You can win if you're good at your class and the opponent is mediocre, but if they're on the same skill level or better you simply can't win the majority of the time. Pre HoT power creep, my personal non-meta builds were still able to fight or sustain fights regardless of what I was playing against (PU mesmer, thief as you stated). Was it maybe 25~40% less optimal than playing meta? Sure, but I still had a good chance at winning or having my enemy ooc through player skill. Now if you don't run the optimal meta build you're at like a 50~90% disadvantage due to power creep. One mistake? Missed a dodge? You pretty much lost the fight against any decent player because you're going to lose a majority of your hp. Let's not forget there's hardly any counter play for 5k 1500 range auto attacks for a lot of classes that aren't meta mobility machines with built in sustain and invuln/blocks. > > > > All of what you described can be attributed way more to the maturity of the player base and availability of outside guides and builds, then power creep. > > > > Don't get me wrong, power creep certainly has affected the game (it's not unique to any 1 class though). The fact that people go to metabattle and pick up a flavor of the month build for roaming today though is not something affected by in game balance. > > > > As far as the complaint thread, they were just as dramatic back then as they are now, so there is certainly no difference in that area. That's not even getting into the entire pre condition damage era in vanilla or the only condition damage era after. People have been whining always, it's in some people's nature. > > Classes who have always been princes and princesses of the roaming scene, staying in their diamond palaces, put on pedestals and always been looking down on the other less-blessed class, hold on to their ideals of being above the silly squabbles and rages of the commoners. > Its like a rich man telling a poor man, money is not the most important thing in life, and scoffs at those low-lifes who struggle and complain daily about the lack of money. > Yes, the rich man may be right, but standing at the lofty height built by his piles of gold, it is just a reaction that lacks 'putting himself in the shoes of others'. You do realize the exactly same can be said about guardian and necromancer about WvW fights right? Funny how a classes base design lends its self to different game modes... 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Swagger.1459 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Sylpheed.8163" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is actually the point of the video? The Deadeye was annoying but never brought you in trouble (except when you switched to that Asura Necro with full glass gear and (accidentally?) double tapped F1). You had a good start and best chances to win the duel against the Mirage.. And chasing a Soulbeast like that is obviously never going to go well for someone with such poor mobility as Necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean...why focus on the necro... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm showing why perma invis needs to be balanced...why quickness + death judgement from invis is undodgeable...why it is unhealthy for perma invis thief to contest keep and 1-shot backstab players running out of spawn...why condi mirage has so much condi spike application that I had to run 8-9 anti-condi tools just to break even...why soulbeast has so much mobility for such a long range high spike DPS class... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that glass necro was not a double tap F1. You can't do that now because they added a short CD to prevent double tapping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was running Unholy Sanctuary which activates my health when I take a lethal blow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what happened was...Backstab from invis with zero tells takes out my entire HP and > Unholy Santuary activates turning on my Shroud > **Deadeye continues attacking with quickness and takes out my entire shroud as well.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not react in time because normal people need more reaction time when an attack comes out from invis with no tells and with quickness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness death judgement from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickness back-stab from invis? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needs balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This ~~is a lie~~ makes me wonder ~~and~~ because one can clearly see this in the video: At 13020 Life-force your Death Shroud goes on cd which means that you canceled it. If you had reacted properly this would be an easy win even with 134 HP given that the Deadeye just died to the NPC's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oooh you're right. I didn't notice that. I must have clicked it when I saw him appear after Unholy Sanctuary already activated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I feel better that the passive life-saver trait could have given me a fighting chance =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Not that it makes it okay for 1-shot backstabs from stealth with no tells of course. I mean what kind of gameplay are we promoting here right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its like...so what if I won? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This sort of perma-invis high spike with no tells or with quickness that makes it undodgeable...not healthy... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So given that you were basically able to go toe to toe with some of the stronger roaming builds (played by bad players) on a class and build which is bad at roaming. Which class exactly needs nerfing or re-balancing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All you did show is how people scream balance and nerf based on skewed match-ups and poor skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing this video shows is: people should first look at their own performance and how to improve before looking at other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So...you're okay if a perma invis DE walks up behind you while you were roaming and 1-shots you with no tells? =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I mentioned above, rather than look at the circumstances of the video and what my necro is doing, look at what these classes can do and ask yourself if they are broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given there are roaming builds which would destroy the Deadeye no matter when he jumps them, yes, I'm fine with this 1 trick pony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To each their own I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I'm not okay with promoting this sort of skill-less gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > I roam for rewarding fights but when fights turn out this way without me being able to see and do something before a chunk of my health gets torn off, I just shake my head. > > > > > > > > > > > Its like seriously, I want to see or sense it coming and be able to react accordingly, instead of only knowing and reacting after a huge chunk was torn off my HP. > > > > > > > > > > > Oh and DE isn't a one-trick pony. Its a class loaded with mobility, stealth and DPS all rolled into one. > > > > > > > > > > > Things used to be more balanced and skill-based before HOT/POF for all classes. > > > > > > > > > > > HOT wasn't too bad. > > > > > > > > > > > But POF just skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep to new heights that have created unbalanced classes/builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the DE is built for perma stealth, most of what you wrote does not apply. DE glass builds live off of their ganks on zerg builds which pass by or bad other roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DE glassy build not only sacrifices self-sustain (not needed when the gank works out) but also has to now take invisibility skills for permanent invisibility (if that is desired, permanent invis is certainly not required to pull off the build). It makes him a target for any roaming build which has minimum sustain on a player who can react. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is this match-up based on though? Your roaming glass build necromancer? Are DE now supposed to get balanced around bottom of the barrel builds? Necromancer is already a bad roamer (which has nothing to do with DE but with its bad mobility) and this just gets worse against a highly mobile class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, still not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: just to be absolutely upfront. I have never roamed on thief, DD or DE and I have been picked off on my scourge multiple times on the way to meet up the zerg with a win rate of 1 win to 2 deaths in favor of the DE, me running full trailblazer. Still not an issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > > > > > > > > > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > > > > > > > > > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > > > > > > > > > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > > > > > > > > > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because that's how thief is built. I never said it's fun, I said it's balanced. Why does necromancer get to have high hit points, a defensive shroud, life leech, etc.? Because it has terrible movement and other disadvantages. Yet its strengths make it great at WvW and ZvZ combat since launch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Something being not fun and something being unbalanced are 2 different issues which people all to often mix up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > You sound like you're playing a full dire build with passive traits that saves you so you're not put off by these things. > > > > > > > > > Which is fine, but just because someone can survive and fight back, doesn't make the perma-stealth mechanic OKAY. > > > > > > > > > You see what I'm driving at? It doesn't matter if there are builds and classes that can fight back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm running full trailblazer as mentioned, on a class which is innate bad at roaming yet I still manage to win some fights (granted against bad Deadeyes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > **Your reasoning is like okay I take a hit, I survive, I know its here now and I react to fight back.** > > > > > > > > > My point is, **why should I even take that hit without even knowing the DE was around** in the first place? > > > > > > > > > So much for skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My reason is: if I was built around roaming and taking out Deadeyes, I would have options to do so on certain classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > Good rewarding mechanics allow you to see a burst coming and react to defend yourself. > > > > > > > > > Against a Perma invis DE? > > > > > > > > > Heh...you eat the burst first then you react. > > > > > > > > > Fun? No, its dumb. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, it's not fun, but is it balanced? What is your argument and should fun or balance be the deciding factor on how to balance (or both?)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > > > > > The perma stealth mechanic itself is counter-intuitive to skilled rewarding gameplay. > > > > > > > > > Stealth at least can be sensed to an extent like 3-4 seconds duration. > > > > > > > > > Perma? How are you going to sense let alone see it coming at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, permanent stealth is a trade off for other utilities and skills. No thief or deadeye has basic permanent stealth. You are again confusing something which is fun or not fun to play against with balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why can't we have balanced AND fun? > > > > > > > > > > > > Never said we couldn't, but those are 2 very different arguments and approaches. Unfortunately, most of the time when people complain about balance, they actually mean fun. Doesn't help the issue. > > > > > > > > > > Actually we or maybe just me have been derailing off the topic of my thread haha... > > > > > My topic wasn't just looking at perma invis issue. > > > > > Its everything combined on 3 classes that is breaking the balance (and making things unfun). > > > > > DPS creep. Mobility creep. Stealth creep. > > > > > All fully amplified in Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts which made things unbalanced. > > > > > There was a time before HOT and POF when there wasn't actually a division between classes perceived to be strong at roaming and classes perceived to be punching bags. > > > > > HOT wasn't so bad after a few balance patches. > > > > > POF catapulted Deadeyes, Mirages and Soulbeasts into the stratosphere as the elite roaming classes and then paupers classes like the necro start taking shape. > > > > > > > > Strongly disagree, those are rose tinted glasses. > > > > > > > > There has always been classes perceived as to strong and strong roamers. Thief, PU mesmer, warrior, engineer just to name a few. People were whining just as much about those classes in vanilla as they are whining now. Again, sometimes justified, most often only based on fun factor. Stealth specifically was always a big issue for people (not only in this game). > > > > > > > > Though I will give you Soulbeasts, they are a very strong at the moment. Then again, a well played Holo is still my personal bane. > > > > > > Rose tinted glasses? Uhh, no.. Just because they were strong and people complained doesn't mean much compared to now. Tbh roaming is dead due to power creep for any non-meta roaming builds. You can win if you're good at your class and the opponent is mediocre, but if they're on the same skill level or better you simply can't win the majority of the time. Pre HoT power creep, my personal non-meta builds were still able to fight or sustain fights regardless of what I was playing against (PU mesmer, thief as you stated). Was it maybe 25~40% less optimal than playing meta? Sure, but I still had a good chance at winning or having my enemy ooc through player skill. Now if you don't run the optimal meta build you're at like a 50~90% disadvantage due to power creep. One mistake? Missed a dodge? You pretty much lost the fight against any decent player because you're going to lose a majority of your hp. Let's not forget there's hardly any counter play for 5k 1500 range auto attacks for a lot of classes that aren't meta mobility machines with built in sustain and invuln/blocks. > > > > All of what you described can be attributed way more to the maturity of the player base and availability of outside guides and builds, then power creep. > > > > Don't get me wrong, power creep certainly has affected the game (it's not unique to any 1 class though). The fact that people go to metabattle and pick up a flavor of the month build for roaming today though is not something affected by in game balance. > > > > As far as the complaint thread, they were just as dramatic back then as they are now, so there is certainly no difference in that area. That's not even getting into the entire pre condition damage era in vanilla or the only condition damage era after. People have been whining always, it's in some people's nature. > > Classes who have always been princes and princesses of the roaming scene, staying in their diamond palaces, put on pedestals and always been looking down on the other less-blessed class, hold on to their ideals of being above the silly squabbles and rages of the commoners. > Its like a rich man telling a poor man, money is not the most important thing in life, and scoffs at those low-lifes who struggle and complain daily about the lack of money. > Yes, the rich man may be right, but standing at the lofty height built by his piles of gold, it is just a reaction that lacks 'putting himself in the shoes of others'. Again, it’s more constructive to come up with ideas that provide more roaming tools in the toolbox for Necro. Complaining about other classes will not improve the state of Necro. And you better expect some nerfs to come with buffs because of balance... And we are talking wvw here (ya know, the mode primarily designed for mass battles not 1v1 dueling), so just like you hope for better roaming capabilities, all the classes you complain about want their fair share of tools to be as useful as necro in groups. These other classes will also need improvements for the spvp scene so they can better compete with Necros... who have the highest win rates in spvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > There was this post in the Thief's forum that explains why 1-shot DE is not the same as 1-shot Thief or DD. > > I think he explained things very well. > > 1-shot DE takes a lot less risk compared to Thief or DD. > > Its a bit lengthy but you could read it if you have the time. > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/792448/#Comment_792448 > > A lengthy post indeed, but very shallow. This comment generalize core and daredevil by only argumenting on daredevil, it's almost funny. A core thief or even a Daredevil with a minimum of brain matter will abuse it's movement skill/use CnD to retreat when needed. The whole argument that leaping in a smoke field is "harder", is just some smoke powder in the eyes of the readers. As for quickness, it's value is there for skills with "cast time", skills that core and Daredevil don't have. And, honnestly, there is little difference between being one shot from stealth with and without quickness. If anything, the mark appearing on your feets tell your opponent got a 4s window of quickness, you know what's coming. CnD to retreat? Uhh.... what? You do know CnD is OH dagger 5 - the worst thief weapon that is only ever run by masochists and condi thieves - and requires a hit to land every time to gain stealth, right? There is no disengaging via CnD in any meaningful capacity that isn't a waste of resources more than necessary. Even if swapping weapons to shortbow, it's better to just double IArrow and use evasion from Disabling Shot or a normal dodge during IArrow's trajectory timers considering one IArrow won't be enough to disengage from most professions/most builds, necro included. Leaping the smoke field is definitively weaker than abusing Silent Scope and has substantially more counterplay because the smoke field is usually visible, and for a thief to pull ahead on initiative requires a minimum of two leaps per cast of BP keeping them in the same area for a few moments. Silent Scope allows the DE to acquire stealth with absolutely zero visual tell and doesn't require a marked target, either. One can Meld -> SScope -> SScope while moving into melee (12s stealth, +50% movespeed from SA) -> weapon swap -> Mark at melee range (+4s stealth) -> Quickness-cancel aftercast delay on Mark -> Backstab without ever leaving an indicator until after the backstab animation has started (being marked) or stopping moving with OOC capped movespeed. And there's still plenty of fuel left in the tank for things like BP, SoA, HiS, Meld 2, and the entirety of D/P if desired for further stealth. To get 16s of stealth from core/DrD you need to spend the same amount of resources and ~10 initiative while leaving the visible smoke field on the ground and triple-leaping it which occupies 4s of basically doing nothing. Even despite the fact D/P SA DrD has few counters, it still has them. DE is a whole different beast. It's only not so noticeable because most people playing DE are bad at it, because it does the opposite of encourage high-octane skilled play that the best thieves often look for when having fun. The only thing I really agree with you on is that quickness isn't really the issue at hand with DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** Hold on ... why is this problem? WvW isn't some gentlemanly duel with pistols at dawn. Why you should have to lose a chunk of HP without knowing it's coming? There are lots of reasons: maybe you didn't play strategically to avoid it; maybe you didn't anticipate it would happen and how you would react to it; maybe you didn't consider the risk/reward profile of what you were doing that day. Let's be clear: what you are describing is a perfectly reasonable event in this kind of game mode. Let's not pretend it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodesh.2851 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 > You're not seeing it because you're not getting my point. > I'm not okay roaming around, not seeing any enemy, then suddenly get a chunk of my HP torn off. > Then I go OH a Deadeye is here. > I want to be able to see my foe coming, and react accordingly to defend myself. > **Why should I have to lose a chunk of HP without even knowing its coming?** Oh you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find, you get what you need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 _edit: Sorry, I was confused by my 10 opened forum tabs and posted in the wrong thread._ :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psaro.6178 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 On my Necro, I rather fight Condi Mirage than perma steal DeadEye or Boon Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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