Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. > > My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. > So basically like any weapon kit in this game has worked? Yes, there is a limit to how much core game mechanics can be changed. The alternative would have been no tomes or some bastard system of part tome skills, which would have people complaining too. > @"otto.5684" said: > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning. > @"otto.5684" said: > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Rodrick.1942" said: > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > I am very surprised no one has mentioned the difference of viability comparing Vanilla Guard F1-3 to FB F1-3. Damage wise in PvP where vanilla and DH both are better at doing their job than a FB damage build which is mostly caused by the difference in F1-F3 skills. > > > > In PvE, my burning Fire Brand feels so vulnerable w/o a useful f2 and f3 to use when compared to how he used to play as vanilla burn guard in PvE. > > Also, another thing about condi FB is that when switching from axe, a huge dps loss is taken. Combining these two facts and cons makes using FB very clunky in general. It's very unrefined. > > > > I am in agreement with Obtena and Otto on the whole subject. It is execution that is gimmicky. The whole reason to compare Vanilla Guard to DH to FB F1-3s is that while Vanilla Guard and DragonHunter can use their F2+3 while doing damage, and FB can not. This renders FB F2-3 almost useless. > > Firebrand is support-oriented spec, of course it's hard to play it like pure dps guard or DH... but that doesn't means tome skill is useless. Anet give guardian an option to play support role, so why do u care about dps when you're support ? Insist to play quickbrand then tell everyone that FB sucks, lol First off, you are completely off. What weapon was introduced with FB? It was axe. What is axe used for? Condi dps.. tyvm for your opinion. But, you need to face the facts. Just because support is what it is mostly used for does not mean the base design was made for that. This just shows how much Anet is off with the balance of the game. As stated by Otto and myself when using F2+3 while equipped for damage, you lose the chance to keep dps up since those tomes over ride your skills. Meanwhile base guard can still do damage while instant casting their F2+3.. You can not argue the tomes are useless for a damage spec FB which is the base design for FB. I did not say that FB was sucks. It's just clunky and lazy design or balance which makes it feel dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. > > My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before. Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky. I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky ass design of those skills. In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec. My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1). I remember when I used to watch GW2 employees stream game play, and every time they would have hover over the skills. It was obvious they did not play the game or knew much about it. I bet it's the same for most of the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > > > > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. > > > > My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. > > > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > > > Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before. > > Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky. > > I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills. > In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+. Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though. > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec. No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break. > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1). Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker. Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > > > > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > > > > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > > > > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > > > > > > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. > > > > > > My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. > > > > > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > > > > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > > > > > Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before. > > > > Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky. > > > > I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills. > > > > In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+. > > Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though. > > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec. > > No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break. > > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1). > > Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker. > > Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice. Wow, you seem to know even less than I imagined. First off, I did not mention Guardian's spirit weapons, elite skills nor orientation. FB base design is condi via axe. this can not be argued. All I did was say that **F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH**. Again, this can not be argued. Just because you want to defend Anet does not mean Anet is in the right. Their balance has been terrible ever since vanilla, and elite specs are coming out less polished and refined than when they were introduced. You even contradict yourself by admitting how even back then, when tomes were elites, that they were gimmicky. Btw, my mention of ele was not for pvp; no one ever played bunker ele in pve... And now, I barely play ele because of the years of nerfs to staff. Yes, ele was one of the squishiest berserkers to play in vanilla pve; I'm not sure how you think otherwise. It's fact. I planned from pre-launch to play four classes evenly, and for a time I did along with vanilla-Guard Permeating Wrath. It's sad to say that FB _along with axe_ feels less interesting and fleshed out **because of the F2+3**s than vanilla. I am completely focused on F2-3 in this thread, so please do not even mention other problems that Guardian has and blame me for disliking them. Let us not talk of PvP, unless it is the fact that burning FB is not used in PvP, because of the fact of F2+3... Which is just one example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning. > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently. The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > > > Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning. > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > > > Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently. > > The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm. > > FB F2+3 work perfectly fine in PvE and WvW. As a matter of fact, I'm predicting the skills getting nerfed with some future balance patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > I just don't get what people expect. Tomes are expanded upon the base guardian F1-3 skills. Beside the Dragonhunter F1 which can be used as a pull, I don't see those skills see more than a singular use. The alternative would have been to mix and match skills in-between tomes which would make the system unnecessarily convoluted. > > > > > > > Most tome skills are insanely overpowered, within those overpowered skills, some are stronger and see priority use. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't expect to be handed the illusion of choice ... I expect more than that. This is why FB Tomes are a massive disappointment for me. You actually said it right here; there should have been more mix and match of effects within the tomes. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example; I could use OTHER offensive skills in F1. They gave us a pull ... a 4 burning skills. I just don't think they tried hard enough. I can think of all kinds of cool things the pages could be to supplement a burning build. You don't even need to be creative about it because there are 8 other classes that do cool things that could be suitable to such a suite of skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > I give kudos to things Anet does well ... I'm also giving some hell to them on things they don't. > > > > > > > > > > I can understand that, i guess it comes down to personal preference. I enjoy the strait forward nature of guardian, DH and FB. Maybe that played a role as well, if people were suddenly given a toolkit similar to that of engineer or elementalist it might have alienated part of the core guardian player base. In a way tomes are the middle ground here, not to complex, still very strait forward in their design and connected to the guardians F1-3 basic theme. > > > > > > > > My issue is not complexity or lack of therof, but limitation. Since tomes lock you out of your weapon skills it severely limits your effectiveness in many situations. > > > > > > > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > > > > > > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > > > > > > > Unrelated note, whoever is making the changes on Anets side last 3-4 patches seems to have never played guardian before. > > > > > > Stop fighting with Cyninja, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again. He won't admit that tomes are gimmicky. > > > > > > I bet he never played vanilla guard with their elite tomes back in the day. It seems like Anet just copied and pasted the clunky kitten design of those skills. > > > > > > > In fact, I did, even played it in fractal 50 and before the initial fractal rework in 30+. > > > > Guardian was always very strait forward even with the elite tomes which were very clunky (and honestly not used all that much since back then, support builds were non existent). Even had a cleric guard for carrying people through fractals. Thanks for your baseless assumptions though. > > > > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > > In fact the whole entire Guardian profession seems off just like Elementalist. We were given support weapons with base game: staff, mace, and shield. Support was viable in PvP but not PvE. Until now people were begging Anet to make a support elite spec, since elite specs, raids, and combat trinity has come into the game via HoT. We finally get an elite spec with support aspects, but then it completely ruins the condi and main aspect of the elite spec. > > > > No, what is off is you being unhappy with how guardian feels after major reworks and redesigns to their spirit weapons, elite skills and orientation. As far as game modes, viability and usefulness: guardian is one of the few classes which have multiple desired builds in multiple game modes fulfilling multiple roles. Some people enjoy the class (like myself) because it can finally be of use, others like you do not. Tough break. > > > > > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > > My comparison to Elementalist was that the constant years of nerfs to ele's damage, since ele was #1 dps for so long. Yet, the base design allowed us to be top damage because we were the squishiest. Anet can not make up their minds, and they have no clue about the base design of all professions. They have fired so many people that we have very few who have even come from GW(1). > > > > Except elementalist was not the "squishiest" for a very long time and in-between. Elementalist bunker builds were always among the most tanky builds there were and still are (since you enjoy talking about pvp). Only difference now is that they lack the damage to kill things which makes them less viable in WvW and Spvp when going bunker. > > > > Also I was looking at guardian and it's development in pve since TC was talking about pve in case you did not notice. > > Wow, you seem to know even less than I imagined. First off, I did not mention Guardian's spirit weapons, elite skills nor orientation. FB base design is condi via axe. this can not be argued. > > All I did was say that **F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH**. Again, this can not be argued. Just because you want to defend Anet does not mean Anet is in the right. Their balance has been terrible ever since vanilla, and elite specs are coming out less polished and refined than when they were introduced. > You even contradict yourself by admitting how even back then, when tomes were elites, that they were gimmicky. > > Btw, my mention of ele was not for pvp; no one ever played bunker ele in pve... And now, I barely play ele because of the years of nerfs to staff. Yes, ele was one of the squishiest berserkers to play in vanilla pve; I'm not sure how you think otherwise. It's fact. > > I planned from pre-launch to play four classes evenly, and for a time I did along with vanilla-Guard Permeating Wrath. It's sad to say that FB _along with axe_ feels less interesting and fleshed out **because of the F2+3**s than vanilla. I am completely focused on F2-3 in this thread, so please do not even mention other problems that Guardian has and blame me for disliking them. Let us not talk of PvP, unless it is the fact that burning FB is not used in PvP, because of the fact of F2+3... Which is just one example. > Given FB F2+3 are one of the core reasons why FB is currently insanely overpowered (for pve and WvW), not sure what you want. Also your constant insults do not make you seem any smarter or more competent, just petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > Power Quick brand has a completely separate issue, lack of damage. Condi quick brand works much better. > > > > Some classes lend themselves to power, others to condition damage. Firebrand is condition in this case simply due to the nature of Tome 1 and the expansion upon the guardians theme to provide burning. > > > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > Anet is trying to make FB provide 100% quickness uptime. Other than that (and nerfing FB in PvP), they just put their heads in the sand and ignore everything else. > > > > Considering FB is still blatantly overpowered (in WvW and PvE) and can provide 100% quickness up-time with as little as 15% boon duration, I'd say who ever is doing the balance will implement way more changes which will not be to your liking. Don't get me wrong, I love FB (and guardian in general) right now, but man it's obscenely broken beyond belief currently. > > The fact that you keep switching the subject to 'well it works in this situation', shows that you are not even interested in discussing why and how FB F2+3 does not work atm. > > We should be careful ... F2 and F3 work and the skills in them as well as any hotbar skill Guardians have. There are many issues with Tomes but 'not working well' isn't one of them. Despite the issues, they are actually quite powerful skills and the fact we have access to so many, it's easy to argue they are OPed if they weren't actually held in check by the limitations they have as outlined in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Let me write out some factual numbers for everyone, so they can see how clunky it is. I am going to take Virtue of Resolve for an example. Virtue of Resolve = Instant Cast = Health gained: 1,625 + (1.4 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 600, Max Targets 5 = CD 30sec Wings of Resolve = 1sec Cast = Health gained: 3,890 + (1.2 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 240, Range 800, Combo Finisher: Leap = CD 30sec Tome of Resolve = .5sec Cast = Equipping Tome = CD 50sec + Chapter 2 = .75sec Cast = Healing Per Removed Condition: 457 + (0.77 * healing), Conditions Removed: 3, Max targets: 5, Radius: 240 = CD 50sec + Chapter 4 = .75sec Cast = Health gained: 376 (0.26 * healing), Swiftness 5 sec, Pulses: 5, Radius 360, Water-Field = CD 50sec If we say Tome of Resolve: Ch 2 cleanses 2 condis, then... [Tome of Resolve = [2sec Cast] = Health gained: 914 + 1880[=2,794], Condi removal: 2, Max targets:5, Radius: 240 to 360, Swifness 5 sec, Water-Field = [CD 50sec] ] I should not even have to say this, but let us remember there is after-cast on tome and tome skills. By the time you equip and sheath tome quickness is used up from minor trait, so I will not even include it in calculations, since after-cast makes it longer than the actual numbers told to us. You can see here; it is almost double CD and double casting time along with less healing from only using two skills from kit. By the time I get healed, most of the time a mob can do greater damage while I am not able to up keep any damage. I would also HAVE TO take scepter for ranged, or else I would be stationary in water field getting rest of the heals I need. If someone uses all melee like myself with Axe/Torch and Sword/Focus, then you would have to use Chapter1 of Resolve instead of Chapter4 and get less healing. Or, one could use focus#5 which takes more coordination with which weapon set is current and CDs, then I'm all out of blast finishers for a fire field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 The above numbers say that Tomes are weak. If Anet got rid of the after-cast and doubled quickness from minor trait, maybe it would not be so weak, but then the support build would be even more powerful. You see, Anet has pigeon-holed themselves into a balancing issue. It goes beyond clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 What they should do is something like Daredevil's Grandmaster Traits, and let burning guards take only ToJ, and leave the other tomes off. They would have to create new mechanics for F2+3 though for the replacements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 ^comment about a new trait function, and what if, tomes 2+3 would become one cast skills that would have effects of chapter2 & chapter 3 combined with a cast time of maybe 1 to 1.25 sec? that would probably be fun to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > Let me write out some factual numbers for everyone, so they can see how clunky it is. > I am going to take Virtue of Resolve for an example. > > Virtue of Resolve = Instant Cast = Health gained: 1,625 + (1.4 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 600, Max Targets 5 = CD 30sec > Wings of Resolve = 1sec Cast = Health gained: 3,890 + (1.2 * healing), Self condi removal: 2, Radius 240, Range 800, Combo Finisher: Leap = CD 30sec > > Tome of Resolve = .5sec Cast = Equipping Tome = CD 50sec > + Chapter 2 = .75sec Cast = Healing Per Removed Condition: 457 + (0.77 * healing), Conditions Removed: 3, Max targets: 5, Radius: 240 = CD 50sec > + Chapter 4 = .75sec Cast = Health gained: 376 (0.26 * healing), Swiftness 5 sec, Pulses: 5, Radius 360, Water-Field = CD 50sec > > If we say Tome of Resolve: Ch 2 cleanses 2 condis, then... > [Tome of Resolve = [2sec Cast] = Health gained: 914 + 1880[=2,794], Condi removal: 2, Max targets:5, Radius: 240 to 360, Swifness 5 sec, Water-Field = > [CD 50sec] ] > > I should not even have to say this, but let us remember there is after-cast on tome and tome skills. By the time you equip and sheath tome quickness is used up from minor trait, so I will not even include it in calculations, since after-cast makes it longer than the actual numbers told to us. You can see here; it is almost double CD and double casting time along with less healing from only using two skills from kit. By the time I get healed, most of the time a mob can do greater damage while I am not able to up keep any damage. I would also HAVE TO take scepter for ranged, or else I would be stationary in water field getting rest of the heals I need. > > If someone uses all melee like myself with Axe/Torch and Sword/Focus, then you would have to use Chapter1 of Resolve instead of Chapter4 and get less healing. Or, one could use focus#5 which takes more coordination with which weapon set is current and CDs, then I'm all out of blast finishers for a fire field. > You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version. Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod the Fox.2368 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Asum.4960" said: > You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version. > Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost. I like how you try to argue and have no ground to do so. You can not argue with my comparison and facts. All changes from Tome of Resolve chp2 and chp4 were pvp only changes. We are talking about PvE. Tome of Resolve changes include: December 11, 2018_The base cooldown of this skill has been increased from 40 seconds to 50 seconds. November 07, 2017_Firebrand tome skills now set each other on a 0.5-second cooldown upon equip. Your argument does not stand with the current time nor the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > You realise the Tomes were heavily nerfed multiple times due to them being way to strong, which is how we got to the current version. > > Which still work great and do exactly what they are intended to by the way, provide greater support with a bigger opportunity cost. > > I like how you try to argue and have no ground to do so. You can not argue with my comparison and facts. > > You mean how you compare a single skill from DH to a tome with up to 5 uses, which has skills like Eternal Oasis and Shining River in it? Yes, very scientific and irrefutable... Not even the people who dislike the implementation of the tome skills in this thread agree with you that they are under-powered. Firebrands performance in both PvE and WvW at the minimum (where tomes are an integral part of the builds) would seem to contradict you on a daily game play basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrick.1942 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 I know your whole point is using F2 - F3 will drop down dps. Compare to core guard and DH, yes I agree FB's F2 and F3 bring nothing good for dps especially if you use power build.(the longer FB stay on tomes, the worse for dps). But you must realize that A net defined FB as support-oriented spec, from your POV (damage dealer) yeah it is useless; from support's POV, these tomes are overpowered. So you don't have to complain about this "F2-3 is useless in comparison to vanilla-guard and DH" , because we all know that FB's not designed as pure dps spec. Condi build still have its space , but definitely not for power build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 @"Tormod the Fox.2368" You can easily get into the tomes and quickly use 5+4 and then drop it, or get a reflect bubble, or whatever you need on FB, even on a Power Build, without losing much DPS, all while gaining a much greater benefit than core or DH Virtues provide. Tomes provide greater versatility and support for a slightly increased cost of opportunity if using them as DPS, while giving support builds free access to mass condi cleanse, healing and boon support. If you can't appreciate the Tomes, such as the ability to flip 25 conditions into boons while also increasing all received healing by 33% with one button press, you have no idea how to play FB properly, nor do you understand it's design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said: > The above numbers say that Tomes are weak. If Anet got rid of the after-cast and doubled quickness from minor trait, maybe it would not be so weak, but then the support build would be even more powerful. You see, Anet has pigeon-holed themselves into a balancing issue. It goes beyond clunky. Writing out numbers doesn't demonstrate how clunky or weak Tome skills are. Any of the skills are as good as hot bar skills available, so they certainly aren't weak, especially considering you can stack any of them to get massive benefit. The 'clunky' isn't about cast times or animations or anything like that. Clunky is a terrible word to describe it. It's more about the redundancy of effects and uniform access, regardless of choices a player makes to use them. Let me describe a scenario that shows what I believe 'clunky' means. he ICD on the tomes are ... 30-50 seconds. The ICD on the skills in them ... much shorter. I think that's backwards. The TOME ICD should be short, the tome skill ICD should be long. Of course, that leads to other issues but if ICD durations were reversed, it would allow players to have more thoughtful use of the skills as needed without fear of being locked out. Anet missed that opportunity because they DIDN'T change the flavour of Tomes on FB ... they simply expanded what they already did without thinking how they would get used. They traded thoughtful play for ... bursts on stacked effects. I guess they just wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod.5018 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 How does numbers and facts not show weakness? You guys have no logic. The above comparison of each Resolve skill shows that Tomes not only take longer but heal for less. It's also too situational which equals gimmicky. If one did not have the two condis CH. 2 does nothing; if using CH. 1 instead of CH. 2, then you heal for even less. You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Tormod.5018" said: > You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall. That doesn't mean much. Just posting numbers/facts/whatever you want to call them doesn't demonstrate it's weak. Furthermore, the Tome has a context; indicating it's 'weak' implies you THINK you understand the context that Anet has granted these healing powers to the Tome. This thread shows you don't. But we have a good hint at the intent; just look at what the skills do. What we can tell is that FB F2 is about team healing and cleansing. Yes, it's situational, yes tomes have flaws but if you think it's 'weak' to cleanse and heal your team in this game the amounts available in F2, then it seems your experience isn't wide enough. THAT is why just posting numbers and facts doesn't show it's weak; context and intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Tormod.5018" said: > How does numbers and facts not show weakness? You guys have no logic. The above comparison of each Resolve skill shows that Tomes not only take longer but heal for less. It's also too situational which equals gimmicky. If one did not have the two condis CH. 2 does nothing; if using CH. 1 instead of CH. 2, then you heal for even less. > > You are arguing against facts. You might as well hit your head against a wall. Glad to see you back after getting banned. The fact is, you get 5-8 skill uses instead of one, and you seem to look at them from a very selfish point of view. Is Wing's of Resolve a great and convenient to use skill when running around alone, yes. Does it have some uses in high end content for clutch healing and reaching mechanics, yes. Does it absolutely pale in comparison to the team support that Tome of Resolve provides, also yes. Again, the Tome provides more healing, drastically more and party wide Condition Cleanse/Conversion and boon support in trade for a bigger time investment to get there. If you still can't grasp that then I don't really see a point in continuing this conversation. If you want to keep comparing a single Tome autoattack or skill with the purpose to cleanse conditions from the entire party on a 4 sec CD, with a single 30 Second CD high impact skill, then go ahead. But maybe stop lecturing people about "facts", if you don't understand the design and mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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