Will mesmer ever be nerfed? Or will the class continue to be anet's favorite child?

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > Does the head of the balance team play mesmer or something?

>

> I'll never get these "Favorite child" remarks when historically mesmer was not all that favored, and under-performed to where pro players ran thief in tournaments instead of mesmer; and there was massive dev bias against it. Until HoT dropped (or arguably the specialization re-work and even then) mesmer was taken for portal.

 

So basically what you are saying is that the last time Mesmer wasn't meta was three and a half years ago.

 

>After Chronobunk was nerfed (only allowed to live 1 season, and rightfully so) it was taken for portal and double moa until PoF.

Mesmer was more than combat capable post chronobunker. Condi Chrono had plenty of damage. Condi Mesmer in general has been meta in some form or another since season 2.

 

 

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

>

> I have no idea what skills Mirage has but I feel like it has too many ways to avoid damage and I think those skills need adjusting

 

This is what's wrong with the game and its forums, y'all.

 

"I don't know anything about this class, but nerf it!" I see it all the time. Condi ambush mirage needs a tone-down but that's about it.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Ziggityzog.7389" said:

> Just played vs another wonderful condi spam and hide, dodge, evade all damge for 2 minutes, spam the screen with clutter, Mesmer. As a necro i wish i could hide, dodge , evade, and be invulnerable for 2-3 minutes while spamming non stop conditions and copies of myself. But then again im not a noob looking to claim to be good.

>

> Well it's official mesmer is the favorite of anet and it's really been annoying moreso in the last few months with more Mirages and Chronos popping up like scourges at PoF start. No skill needed but high reward.

>

> I know pvp is non competitive and has no chance of being that since season 5 or maybe pre HoT. If i don't see big changes to mesmer then I'm dropping my gw1 and gw2 hat off for Anthem the game that just came out. I'll wait for gw1 remastered 4k or Guild Wars 3 if it's that hard to make a class not be able to 1v4 people just by spam and hiding.

 

Zog I gotta ask, as a necro main, how the hell are making the top boards. I always see you around the top 100 even tho you hate conquest lmao.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said:

> > Just played vs another wonderful condi spam and hide, dodge, evade all damge for 2 minutes, spam the screen with clutter, Mesmer. As a necro i wish i could hide, dodge , evade, and be invulnerable for 2-3 minutes while spamming non stop conditions and copies of myself. But then again im not a noob looking to claim to be good.

> >

> > Well it's official mesmer is the favorite of anet and it's really been annoying moreso in the last few months with more Mirages and Chronos popping up like scourges at PoF start. No skill needed but high reward.

> >

> > I know pvp is non competitive and has no chance of being that since season 5 or maybe pre HoT. If i don't see big changes to mesmer then I'm dropping my gw1 and gw2 hat off for Anthem the game that just came out. I'll wait for gw1 remastered 4k or Guild Wars 3 if it's that hard to make a class not be able to 1v4 people just by spam and hiding.

>

> Zog I gotta ask, as a necro main, how the hell are making the top boards. I always see you around the top 100 even tho you hate conquest lmao.

 

I dont make the "top" due to not wasting time on ranked ?. Had legendary when it mattered in seasons 1-4 even playing mostly solo and vs teams. Even got my 102-09 season going solo hehe.

 

It's not like ranked matters since the wintrade wars began.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Ziggityzog.7389" said:

> > @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > > @"Ziggityzog.7389" said:

> > > Just played vs another wonderful condi spam and hide, dodge, evade all damge for 2 minutes, spam the screen with clutter, Mesmer. As a necro i wish i could hide, dodge , evade, and be invulnerable for 2-3 minutes while spamming non stop conditions and copies of myself. But then again im not a noob looking to claim to be good.

> > >

> > > Well it's official mesmer is the favorite of anet and it's really been annoying moreso in the last few months with more Mirages and Chronos popping up like scourges at PoF start. No skill needed but high reward.

> > >

> > > I know pvp is non competitive and has no chance of being that since season 5 or maybe pre HoT. If i don't see big changes to mesmer then I'm dropping my gw1 and gw2 hat off for Anthem the game that just came out. I'll wait for gw1 remastered 4k or Guild Wars 3 if it's that hard to make a class not be able to 1v4 people just by spam and hiding.

> >

> > Zog I gotta ask, as a necro main, how the hell are making the top boards. I always see you around the top 100 even tho you hate conquest lmao.

>

> I dont make the "top" due to not wasting time on ranked ?. Had legendary when it mattered in seasons 1-4 even playing mostly solo and vs teams. Even got my 102-09 season going solo hehe.

>

> It's not like ranked matters since the wintrade wars began.

 

Ah, I see.

I just had to ask because I could have sworn I saw 'ziggityzog' on the boards this season, but that could just be me assuming it is you instead of being someone else that has the same name.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Prob similar name

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> >

> > I have no idea what skills Mirage has but I feel like it has too many ways to avoid damage and I think those skills need adjusting

>

> This is what's wrong with the game and its forums, y'all.

>

> "I don't know anything about this class, but nerf it!" I see it all the time. Condi ambush mirage needs a tone-down but that's about it.

 

Well not really, theres not really a class besides mirage that when i duel it I'm like "fuck when can i actually hit this dude?" You also never see mirages kiting they just need to use their skills while you see all other classes trying their hardest to kite and use the map to survive. I also never said anything like "I don't know how this class works but nerf it" I don't know the skills and traits by heart, but it's clear they have way too much damage avoiding abilities and you just need to duel them not actually now all their skills for that

[Solori.6025]

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

>

> I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

 

Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

 

 

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> >

> > I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

>

> Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

>

>

 

Doesn't change the fact that mirage has too many skills to avoid damage? I don't need to learn the names I just need to count how many times a mirage goes invul during a duel that's plenty

[phokus.8934]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> >

> > I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

>

> Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

>

>

 

But it's easier to complain about things you don't know about. Case in point, Snellibee.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> > >

> > > I have no idea what skills Mirage has but I feel like it has too many ways to avoid damage and I think those skills need adjusting

> >

> > This is what's wrong with the game and its forums, y'all.

> >

> > "I don't know anything about this class, but nerf it!" I see it all the time. Condi ambush mirage needs a tone-down but that's about it.

>

> Well not really, theres not really a class besides mirage that when i duel it I'm like "kitten when can i actually hit this dude?" You also never see mirages kiting they just need to use their skills while you see all other classes trying their hardest to kite and use the map to survive. I also never said anything like "I don't know how this class works but nerf it" I don't know the skills and traits by heart, but it's clear they have way too much damage avoiding abilities and you just need to duel them not actually now all their skills for that

 

If you don't know their skills and how they work, as well as how they function with traits, you're simply not up to snuff on the class, and shouldn't be calling for changes one way or another.

 

Why complain without trying out the class to learn how they tick. I can beat most (average) condi ambush mirages just because I took time to learn their class. The top tier ones are impossible to beat, which is why — yes — they need a tone-down, but if you don't know why they need a tone-down, you shouldn't be calling for one.

[Solori.6025]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> > >

> > > I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

> >

> > Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

> >

> >

>

> But it's easier to complain about things you don't know about. Case in point, Snellibee.

 

Yup. Prime example of who Anet listens to when they fail to address the actual issues of condi mirage.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> > > >

> > > > I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

> > >

> > > Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > But it's easier to complain about things you don't know about. Case in point, Snellibee.

>

> Yup. Prime example of who Anet listens to when they fail to address the actual issues of condi mirage.

 

However, let's not forget this not only goes for condi mirage but also for other classes like spellbreaker, DE and stuff. :tongue:

 

But yeah, I mean, there _is_ plenty of good and constructive feedback and suggestions in the forums. But there seems to be a habit of either listening to a noisy majority or... maybe more own thoughts and data than we think? I don't know, but I doubt it.

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > I'm not going to say "L2P", but I do get a feeling a lot of people are unaware of or forget the basic concepts for dealing with Mesmers:

> > >

> > > * "Condi spam" - This is currently a bit oppressive from certain condi-Mirage builds, but condi-cleanse and resistance are also through the roof right now. People just seldom put it into their builds and RIP when they get condi bombed.

> > > * "Clone spam" - Unlike pets and minions, clones are paper. They pop with most AOEs, cleaves, and auto-attacks. Swatting them will not only hamper the Mesmer's damage output, it'll make it easier to focus on the real Mesmer.

> > > * "Can't find/target the real Mesmer" - See above. Also: amateur/sloppy Mesmers (there are a lot of them these days jumping on the bandwagon or trying to "see what the fuss is about") aren't so good at hiding among their clones by keeping still. They run and hop around like they're playing Holo or War. Use that to your advantage. As for stomps: Don't try to stomp when the Mes first goes down; just keep hitting them. After they stealth/port, the second downed Mesmer that appears is the real one. 100% every time. The inexperienced will fall for the decoy. Those who know how this works, won't. Perfect example of a micro "L2P" issue.

> > >

> > > There are many more tips from much better players than me, but I think these are some of the key basics. Other than maybe condi application getting toned down (which would be the right nerf), I don't think these mechanics will change with tomorrow's balance patch.

> >

> > Besides that, the issue is that matchs are too dependent on mesmers. If it was from a 1v1 point of view, mirage has surely a few issues, but that's it. Unfortunately, this is a 5v5. There are too many matchs involving 2 mirages on both sides( + necros ), and if my mirages cannot win their 1v1's, the match usually ends into a lose, regardless on how i'm performing.

>

> That's interesting because those in [this](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/69382/thief-hate/p1 "this") discussion suggest matches turn on which team has the better thief. Since both professions are usually responsible for side nodes (albeit in different manners), and this requires additional skills beyond combat such as map awareness, I suppose it makes sense that both can have extra influence on match outcome, for better or worse. I do think map awareness, rotation, and knowing when to engage and disengage is more impactful than 1v1 prowess though.

 

From my point of view, matchs with these setups quite often look like 1 mirage close 1 mirage far 1 scourge mid. No matter if you snowball, manages to rotate very well, outplay, at some point you will require your mesmers to hold 1v1 and the others to not drop like flies to the scourge(s).

 

Even when involving thieves, soulbeastss, holos or stuff, matchs generally look really fair, even when losing because you still can find ways of " remontada " or understand why you lost. When i'm facing mirages and scourges, this isn't really fun ending a match 500-480 against terrible players only because you cannot cap skyhammer/stillness due to builds. There are also several matchs ending into a huge snowball where you cannot do anything and this isn't fun neither since you cannot kill these builds 1v1 , 2v2 or 5v5 so easily after being rolled on first fight.

[whoknocks.4935]

The problem with their balance patches about mesmer and mirage is hitting the wrong things.

In the latest patch they nerfed axe2 POWER damage by 30%, on a condi weapon...Seems a joke, but it's not.

 

Overall it's true that mirage received lots and lots of nerfs, but if it is still top 1vs1 specs it means it got barely nerfed in comparison to all other specs.

 

Look warrior, those can be called real nerfs who made warrior completely fade out of the pvp meta already the next day after the balance.

 

This being said even holosmith and boonbeast deserve a big nerf, but definitely mirage the biggest to be on par of the other specs.

[Lilyanna.9361]

A lot of the PoF specs need cooldown nerfs tbh.

 

Compared to the nerfed HoT skills and core skills, the cooldowns on some of the utilities and weapons is fcking bonkers. And I will say this again, nerfing the direct mirage traits is not the answer anymore. The only trait that needs to be touched in mirage is the dodge while CC.

 

What they need to do is start delving into the/CORE/ stuff because the CORE traits are pushing them over the top when it comes to condi. The power side? Eh, I can only think of one power trait that needs to be touched and after that I think they would be relatively okay. And trust me, I DO NOT like the Mesmer class. I hate the visual clutter, the theme, everything. I will admit it. But, I do understand targeting random traits or useless utilities is not gonna properly balance them either.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > > Does the head of the balance team play mesmer or something?

> >

> > I'll never get these "Favorite child" remarks when historically mesmer was not all that favored, and under-performed to where pro players ran thief in tournaments instead of mesmer; and there was massive dev bias against it. Until HoT dropped (or arguably the specialization re-work and even then) mesmer was taken for portal.

>

> So basically what you are saying is that the last time Mesmer wasn't meta was three and a half years ago.

>

> >After Chronobunk was nerfed (only allowed to live 1 season, and rightfully so) it was taken for portal and double moa until PoF.

> Mesmer was more than combat capable post chronobunker. Condi Chrono had plenty of damage. Condi Mesmer in general has been meta in some form or another since season 2.

>

>

 

I’m saying it’s not A-nets favourite. Also I did point out it’s **Historical** underperformance.

 

And I don’t disagree that it had a meta presence in HoT. Sure it did damage but the other options for the meta especially any medium class had a lot more on point sustain options compared to any condi chrono meant to deal damage, and got known much more for swinging team fights with double Moa while maintaining its all important portal.

 

None of this has to do with favouritism, and it’s meta position still revolved around a utility and an elite.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> > >

> > > I have no idea what skills Mirage has but I feel like it has too many ways to avoid damage and I think those skills need adjusting

> >

> > This is what's wrong with the game and its forums, y'all.

> >

> > "I don't know anything about this class, but nerf it!" I see it all the time. Condi ambush mirage needs a tone-down but that's about it.

>

> Well not really, theres not really a class besides mirage that when i duel it I'm like "kitten when can i actually hit this dude?"

 

Boonbeasts, Holos, Guardians, and Weavers can seem nigh undamageable for disturbingly long times too.

 

> You also never see mirages kiting they just need to use their skills while you see all other classes trying their hardest to kite and use the map to survive. I also never said anything like "I don't know how this class works but nerf it" I don't know the skills and traits by heart, but it's clear they have way too much damage avoiding abilities and you just need to duel them not actually now all their skills for that

 

I mean Mirage is a dueling class. So it should be good at dueling right? Boonbeast and Holo are also dueling classes and excel at it. Since the December balance update, Boonbeast is hands down the top dueling class.

 

Ever tried to damage a competent Boonbeast with their long list of perma boons filling the UI, perma protection, regen, pet merge, no consequences for pet dying, all while doing 3K+ damage autos at 1500 range?

 

There are also guardian builds that just sit there with seemingly perma-block tanking everything you can throw at them.

 

Mirages absolutely do have to kite and use LoS, especially power builds. People only see "evaded" flash on screen and think Mirages are untouchable but forget that (1) Mirage's main attacks (ambushes) are tied to dodging, so both their offense and defense must be budgeted around endurance; (2) they have the same two dodges at any moment that every class has (except Daredevil, which has three); (3) they have one of the lowest Vigor up times following major nerfs to it; (4) while they can have higher vitality, they have mediocre toughness and healing--so evasiveness is really all they have for sustain. They may be relatively hard to hit, but when they do get hit it hurts a lot.

 

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Flandre.2870" said:

> > > > only thing that needs to be nerfed is scepter block (increase cd by like 6 sec), secpter 3 ( lower dmg down the line) and chaos traitline just add more icd on kitten then its fine

> > >

> > > I have no idea what skills Mirage has..

> >

> > Go learn them and rejoin the discussion when you are more informed?

> >

> >

>

> Doesn't change the fact that mirage has too many skills to avoid damage? I don't need to learn the names I just need to count how many times a mirage goes invul during a duel that's plenty

 

Damage _avoidance_ is Mirage's signature. Just as damage _absorption_ is that of bunkers. Two means to the same end: damage mitigation. Neither is inherently problematic. But people perhaps feel less "cheated" and still take some satisfaction at landing hits on bunkers, even if little to no damage is actually taken, because hey, at least they hit right?

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> (...) (3) they have one of the lowest Vigor up times following major nerfs to it; (4) while they can have higher vitality, they have mediocre toughness and healing--so evasiveness is really all they have for sustain. (...)

 

Just a quick sidenote:

1. The current meta build for mirage uses chaos and has a quite high vigor uptime (still less than perma vigor thieves and stuff of course).

2. It also uses sage's amulet for sustain.

 

Still, they are not the best duelist and can definitely get hurt. Didn't want to disagree with your post, just point out these two things. :smile:

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> Damage _avoidance_ is Mirage's signature. Just as damage _absorption_ is that of bunkers. Two means to the same end: damage mitigation. Neither is inherently problematic. But people perhaps feel less "cheated" and still take some satisfaction at landing hits on bunkers, even if little to no damage is actually taken, because hey, at least they hit right?

 

Just because a class has a signature doesn't mean they need to be ridiculously good at it? Thiefs signature is being stealthy yet everyone is crying about how much stealth DE has? Elementalists signature is high damage yet Weaver has probably one of the lowest damage outputs in the game?

 

The problem with Mirage is that you can't deal damage to them, but at the same time they're pumping condi on you like they don't even have to try. They have so many skills that allow them to be offensive whilst being defensive and what the fuck is that kind of design? You're literally a god if you can be both at the same time.

 

Imagine giving all classes attacks during evading and a fuckload of invuls, blinks and stealth. The Mesmer mains will come to the forums to talk about how OP it is.