So...now that the layoffs are hitting.

[Luclinraider.2317]

Can we finally get proper competitive PvP? You know....what made GW1 the success it was.

Implement 2v2 and 3v3 ranked arenas, and in that specific game mode (All SPvP) remove the downed system entirely.

No one plays WoW for anything more than the Arena system...and it's still doing great. GW2 has the potential to have Esport level PvP if they would just implement the proper modes, achieve some form of at least decent balance, and get rid of the horrid downed state within PvP. Downed works in WvW, Raid, Dungeon, and Open World...but it has ALWAYS been the biggest flaw of SPvP.

GW2 and Anet are now NC's lowest performing game/branch and as we all know, NC's lowest performer is usually on its last year or 2 before being shut down.

You can't get much worse than where we are....it's time to at least give the right moves a try.

[Blocki.4931]

I'm kinda speechless how tone deaf this thread is and honestly I don't think that deserves a proper answer.

 

Since I don't want to get infracted however I will just ask you this:

 

Really? That's the one thing they need to change? Also last I've checked they were among the highest, not lowest performing games? Or was what they talked about in the other thread entirely wrong? Honestly I have no idea anymore, but GW2 is very, very far from shutting down as of right now.

[Yamazuki.6073]

Unsure if you browse the internet with your eyes closed, but...

-ArenaNet already wasted resources hopping on the hopeless e-sports wagon. Most games as well, see Blizzard and how not even their money made it work for them.

-PvP is unpopular among the GW2 playerbase, and "balance" doesn't exist in online pvp games when ever there's too many different options; no matter what, there will be an imbalance

-GW2 is not NCsofts least performing game, it has been consistent for 3 years, where as BNS, Lineage, and Lineage 2 has seen a decline over the last 3 years. Other regions also see worse performance too.

 

 

If you really want a competitive environment, there's already other games that offer that with zero/nearly zero focus on pve.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> Can we finally get proper competitive PvP? You know....what made GW1 the success it was.

> Implement 2v2 and 3v3 ranked arenas, and in that specific game mode (All SPvP) remove the downed system entirely.

> No one plays WoW for anything more than the Arena system...and it's still doing great.

 

Yeah, no. Arena and WoW spvp is successful if you consider a couple of thousand viewers with a player base of millions is good.

 

> @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> GW2 has the potential to have Esport level PvP if they would just implement the proper modes, achieve some form of at least decent balance, and get rid of the horrid downed state within PvP. Downed works in WvW, Raid, Dungeon, and Open World...but it has ALWAYS been the biggest flaw of SPvP.

 

There hasn't been an Esports level MMO, or close to Esports level MMO, ever. As in never ever so far. The game type (MMOs) does not lend its self to Esports due to a lot of factors which go directly against Esports.

 

> @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> GW2 and Anet are now NC's lowest performing game/branch and as we all know, NC's lowest performer is usually on its last year or 2 before being shut down.

> You can't get much worse than where we are....it's time to at least give the right moves a try.

 

Making things up or being unable to properly analyze financial statements does not make your point in any way better.

 

Am I opposed to more spvp content or better balance/changes which would improve spvp? Absolutely not, getting this game mode improved would be amazing. Not based on incorrect and strait up false assumptions though.

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Yamazuki.6073" said:

> Unsure if you browse the internet with your eyes closed, but...

> -ArenaNet already wasted resources hopping on the hopeless e-sports wagon. Most games as well, see Blizzard and how not even their money made it work for them.

> -PvP is unpopular among the GW2 playerbase, and "balance" doesn't exist in online pvp games when ever there's too many different options; no matter what, there will be an imbalance

> -GW2 is not NCsofts least performing game, it has been consistent for 3 years, where as BNS, Lineage, and Lineage 2 has seen a decline over the last 3 years. Other regions also see worse performance too.

>

>

> If you really want a competitive environment, there's already other games that offer that with zero/nearly zero focus on pve.

 

Actually, the problem lies in the fact that GW1 would offer you basic competitive things in game, such as an explicit leaderboard and ranking system( anyone knew which was his rank amongst all players, regarding individual or guild), automated tournaments on swiss rounds, and in game replays so you could watch best tournaments matchs.

 

GW1 was probably in advance amongst all games because it offered lot of competitive points, and none do exist in GW2, or even many other games. The actual system that do exist, regarding ELO and seasons, can be good, but creates too many frustrations and is only made to keep top players at their spot, average players at their spot, etc..

To me, MMO's PvP isn't so bad, the issue is that most are trying to make a system similar to non MMO's games, and that cannot work.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Let's say these layoffs did spell the end for GW2(and I don't think they do.) Why would Arenanet start putting resources into the most underpopulated and neglected branch of the game in an attempt to save GW2 as a whole? Also, is downstate really that big a deal? We've got paid wins, bots, terrible balancing, a fundamentally broken ranked arena, broken matchmaking, duo stackers, pip-farmers, afkers, etc. Plenty more pressing matters that'd have a far greater positive impact if corrected.

[Vayne.8563]

As the original Guild Wars 1 evolved, it moved away from PvP and towards PvE. The last two expansions didn't really update PvP at all. My guess is that's because Anet found there were more people interested in PvE by percentage. The game was originally designed to be a PvP game and the PvE end game was added due to the number of people PvEing. From what I understand Anet didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was.

 

When Guild Wars 2 was announced, Anet barely spoke about PvP at all by design for the first year. At one of the Gamescon panels it was stated the reason for this was to make sure people knew it wasn't going to be a PvP focused game. Seems to me, your opinion on what made Guild Wars 1 successful might not stand up to closer inspection.

[BadMed.3846]

Can we stop bringing layoffs into forum drama please?

[HUSKAR.2506]

anet is to busy creating a new living world episode that no one cares about

[Ziggityzog.7389]

If they took GW1 pvp in it's whole with Random arenas, team arenas, HA/HoH, Battle Alliances and so forth. Then just took gw2 graphics on top. This would have been a esport game since 2013 not long after launch. There was a epic esport level of gaming in Gw1 in many forms way before it was a thing. But we have circlequest non competitive pvp and that's it nothing else. TDM is in fact a competitive game mode, babysitting 3 circles on the ground is not.

 

Hopefully they can spend some resources on fixing pvp now.

[OriOri.8724]

Competitive PvP in GW2 will always be held back by the horrid state of power creep in this game. Every class, every build just does too much stuff now. It all needs to be dialed back, for every class.

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> Competitive PvP in GW2 will always be held back by the horrid state of power creep in this game. Every class, every build just does too much stuff now. It all needs to be dialed back, for every class.

 

It's been held bck bcuz Anet to afraid to take risks. Risk means spend loads of $$$ to switch the game mode from what it is & scratch off the old one. To bad..but that's what happens when you think your playing it safe.

[Jibz.2094]

I miss pre HoT pvp.

[Luclinraider.2317]

Seem's I've struck a nerve with some people....

My intentions are to try and make the game better if that make your all feel any better.

I personally barely play anymore due to the horrible PvP scene. None of my friends have played in 4+ years due to the down system in PvP, and their PvE is lacking compared to other big PvE MMO's.

I just feel like GW2 has the potential to be one of the big PvP MMO's if it just moved some of the pieces around is all.

[Mathias.9657]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > Can we finally get proper competitive PvP? You know....what made GW1 the success it was.

> > Implement 2v2 and 3v3 ranked arenas, and in that specific game mode (All SPvP) remove the downed system entirely.

> > No one plays WoW for anything more than the Arena system...and it's still doing great.

>

> Yeah, no. Arena and WoW spvp is successful if you consider a couple of thousand viewers with a player base of millions is good.

>

> > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > GW2 has the potential to have Esport level PvP if they would just implement the proper modes, achieve some form of at least decent balance, and get rid of the horrid downed state within PvP. Downed works in WvW, Raid, Dungeon, and Open World...but it has ALWAYS been the biggest flaw of SPvP.

>

> There hasn't been an Esports level MMO, or close to Esports level MMO, ever. As in never ever so far. The game type (MMOs) does not lend its self to Esports due to a lot of factors which go directly against Esports.

>

> > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > GW2 and Anet are now NC's lowest performing game/branch and as we all know, NC's lowest performer is usually on its last year or 2 before being shut down.

> > You can't get much worse than where we are....it's time to at least give the right moves a try.

>

> Making things up or being unable to properly analyze financial statements does not make your point in any way better.

>

> Am I opposed to more spvp content or better balance/changes which would improve spvp? Absolutely not, getting this game mode improved would be amazing. Not based on incorrect and strait up false assumptions though.

 

Uhh GW1 was definitely esport level pvp, and much better than any MMO in history it was ahead of its time and abandoned for this crap before big streaming. Its a wonder why all ex-GW1 players are in competitive games like LoL or Dota. Because GW2 pvp was a massive fail. WoW is literally esports with its arena, that is fact so you can't even deny it. Their views on last championship was 32k.. This also during their worst xpansion in history next to WoD..

 

Even their mythic dungeons are esport now, who the hell else can claim that with pve lol.

 

Anet could have gone esports level if they just listened to their players and veterans of the franchise. Toned down particles, remove cancer, add better defined roles and GvG ala GW1. But nah.. they just kept the same trash until esport literally DROPPED them because they wre going nowhere, now that is seriously sad.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > > Can we finally get proper competitive PvP? You know....what made GW1 the success it was.

> > > Implement 2v2 and 3v3 ranked arenas, and in that specific game mode (All SPvP) remove the downed system entirely.

> > > No one plays WoW for anything more than the Arena system...and it's still doing great.

> >

> > Yeah, no. Arena and WoW spvp is successful if you consider a couple of thousand viewers with a player base of millions is good.

> >

> > > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > > GW2 has the potential to have Esport level PvP if they would just implement the proper modes, achieve some form of at least decent balance, and get rid of the horrid downed state within PvP. Downed works in WvW, Raid, Dungeon, and Open World...but it has ALWAYS been the biggest flaw of SPvP.

> >

> > There hasn't been an Esports level MMO, or close to Esports level MMO, ever. As in never ever so far. The game type (MMOs) does not lend its self to Esports due to a lot of factors which go directly against Esports.

> >

> > > @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> > > GW2 and Anet are now NC's lowest performing game/branch and as we all know, NC's lowest performer is usually on its last year or 2 before being shut down.

> > > You can't get much worse than where we are....it's time to at least give the right moves a try.

> >

> > Making things up or being unable to properly analyze financial statements does not make your point in any way better.

> >

> > Am I opposed to more spvp content or better balance/changes which would improve spvp? Absolutely not, getting this game mode improved would be amazing. Not based on incorrect and strait up false assumptions though.

>

> Uhh GW1 was definitely esport level pvp, and much better than any MMO in history it was ahead of its time and abandoned for this kitten before big streaming. Its a wonder why all ex-GW1 players are in competitive games like LoL or Dota. Because GW2 pvp was a massive fail. WoW is literally esports with its arena, that is fact so you can't even deny it. Their views on last championship was 32k.. This also during their worst xpansion in history next to WoD..

>

 

GW1 was not a MMO.

 

WoW being esports is like saying having 0.1% of your player base watching your competitive content is a success. Even within the esports scene it's tiny and insignificant.

 

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> Even their mythic dungeons are esport now, who the hell else can claim that with pve lol.

>

 

Sure, the WoW pve scene is big enough and popular enough. GW2 pve content sees a lot more views too compared to the Spvp. How is this helping your point?

 

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> Anet could have gone esports level if they just listened to their players and veterans of the franchise. Toned down particles, remove cancer, add better defined roles and GvG ala GW1. But nah.. they just kept the same trash until esport literally DROPPED them because they wre going nowhere, now that is seriously sad.

 

No they couldn't have, not with a MMO. Again, there is no MMO game with serious Spvp content. Never has been so far.

 

This is directly related with conflicting design elements which make a good MMO versus a good competitive game which is fun to watch.

[Mathias.9657]

You can't deny literal facts, just search their esport events on their website lmao and saying GW1 was not an MMO is just grasping at straws xD

 

Try again bbygurl, just because you believe something doesn't make it true :astonished:

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> You can't deny literal facts, just search their esport events on their website lmao and saying GW1 was not an MMO is just grasping at straws xD

 

GW1 wasn't an MMO. It was never considered an MMO. It had no characteristics of a MMO. You are literally oblivious what MMO means or are trolling.

 

Diablo is also no MMO, neither is Counterstrike or League of Legends.

 

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> Try again bbygurl, just because you believe something doesn't make it true :astonished:

 

So when given facts (WoW's Spvp scene is tiny, so are the rewards for the competitions) and explanations, your go to is insults and unconstructive personal attacks. Yet I am the immature one?

 

The biggest Esports events and scenes which are carrying Esports are:

- fighting games

- shooters

- mobas

- strategy games

 

All of those games have certain characteristics associated with them which are not common or go directly against MMO design. That's not me making this up, it's simple fact.

 

EDIT: Prize Pools for Esports in 2018: https://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

WoW is the first MMO and comes in at place 254. That's 253 games, most of which are represented multiple times, above it. If I did an actual break down of value in those prize pools, this would become even worse since that 254th spot is hilariously low compared to the ones above. WoW's Esports scene is insignificant. The only reason it is represented at all is its huge player base and as mentioned, even within that player base, no one gives a kitten.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

What's wrong with downed state in sPvP? Serious question.

 

As for putting effort and resources into PvE versus PvP... Well, particularly in light of recent events (layoffs), I imagine near-term focus will be on the most profitable game modes, and I think we know what that means. Maybe PvP becomes profitable if overhauled to eSport status, but that's probably not something that can happen any time soon, if ever.

[Lucentfir.7430]

> @"HUSKAR.2506" said:

> anet is to busy creating a new living world episode that no one cares about

 

Well i mean it's obvious more people care about LS more than Spvp, you can't tell me I'm wrong about that can you? ;)

[HUSKAR.2506]

> @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> > @"HUSKAR.2506" said:

> > anet is to busy creating a new living world episode that no one cares about

>

> Well i mean it's obvious more people care about LS more than Spvp, you can't tell me I'm wrong about that can you? ;)

 

I think that people only care about LS because it's the only thing that this game have to offer. Improve old content, like doing more CMs on old raid bosses and dungeons, create more Hot Join modes for sPvP like 2v2s and 3v3s, more AT's and a Weekly tournament for GvGs ( AT format but for 15v15) . Also the price of gems in this game is INSANE for simple cosmetics that MOST of people buy for free with gold in-game. Raid/pve players want challenges, pvp players want better balancing and game modes, wvw players want GvG system and a solution to the skill lag

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > You can't deny literal facts, just search their esport events on their website lmao and saying GW1 was not an MMO is just grasping at straws xD

>

> GW1 wasn't an MMO. It was never considered an MMO. It had no characteristics of a MMO. You are literally oblivious what MMO means or are trolling.

>

> Diablo is also no MMO, neither is Counterstrike or League of Legends.

 

 

Just want to hit on this... Guild Wars 1 is classified as a MMORPG. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

Edit- It’s also listed on steam as a mmo

 

Now, whether you think it is a MMO is irrelevant when it’s listed as a mmo.

 

Diablo is an action role playing game. It’s a different genre of game. LoL is a MOBA.

 

So rather than arguing that GW 1 is or isn’t a mmo because you don’t believe it is just go off how the game is listed.

 

[Xstein.2187]

Wow, this is a pretty depressing comment section.

 

1. PvP didn't make money for Anet because their little Esports experiment didn't work.

2. This caused Anet to basically give up making money on PvP

3. Not making money on PvP caused Anet to neglect PvP

3. Therefore, with PvP neglected, less people played PvP

4. Less people playing PvP incentivized Anet to put less money or resources into PvP

5. PvP was even more neglected. Therefore, even less people played PvP

 

The problem with this is that Esports was the only way that Anet attempted to make money off PvP. What they need to do is separate the PvP related teams so that they are responsible for both PvP content AND making money off of PvP. They basically need to be their own business.

Some other ways they could make money include:

 

1. Selling new maps in the gem store instead of giving them away for free.

2. Selling new game modes

3. Selling elite specs separately from the expansions, or even selling completely different elite specs instead (this would potentially fix power creep since the specs are handled completely differently than the PvE specs)

4. Selling custom PvP maps

 

At least this way if PvP made money, they would have a reason to care about balance and maintaining a high PvP player population, just like how right now they care about maintaining a high PvE player population. However, in order to do this in the first place, the game would need to be properly balanced and they would need to introduce something larger to attract new players, like a new game mode. And Yes, this might even involve incentivizing PvEers with reasons to try out PvP again.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > > You can't deny literal facts, just search their esport events on their website lmao and saying GW1 was not an MMO is just grasping at straws xD

> >

> > GW1 wasn't an MMO. It was never considered an MMO. It had no characteristics of a MMO. You are literally oblivious what MMO means or are trolling.

> >

> > Diablo is also no MMO, neither is Counterstrike or League of Legends.

>

>

> Just want to hit on this... Guild Wars 1 is classified as a MMORPG. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

> Edit- It’s also listed on steam as a mmo

>

> Now, whether you think it is a MMO is irrelevant when it’s listed as a mmo.

>

> Diablo is an action role playing game. It’s a different genre of game. LoL is a MOBA.

>

> So rather than arguing that GW 1 is or isn’t a mmo because you don’t believe it is just go off how the game is listed.

>

 

"Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft. "

 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

 

Thats literally the first sentence, from the *official* wiki.

 

 

Edit:

And just in case anyone questions who or what controls and host the information on the official wiki--

"What is this website about?

Guild Wars Wiki is the official English language wiki for Guild Wars. It is hosted by ArenaNet for the Guild Wars community to be managed and shaped by the community."

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > > You can't deny literal facts, just search their esport events on their website lmao and saying GW1 was not an MMO is just grasping at straws xD

> >

> > GW1 wasn't an MMO. It was never considered an MMO. It had no characteristics of a MMO. You are literally oblivious what MMO means or are trolling.

> >

> > Diablo is also no MMO, neither is Counterstrike or League of Legends.

>

>

> Just want to hit on this... Guild Wars 1 is classified as a MMORPG. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild_Wars

> Edit- It’s also listed on steam as a mmo

>

> Now, whether you think it is a MMO is irrelevant when it’s listed as a mmo.

>

> Diablo is an action role playing game. It’s a different genre of game. LoL is a MOBA.

>

> So rather than arguing that GW 1 is or isn’t a mmo because you don’t believe it is just go off how the game is listed.

>

 

Solori.6025 already beat me to it with directing to the official GW1 wiki.

 

So we now have conflicting statements on wikipedia (a platform which is maintained by multiple individuals and which can occasionally be wrong or broad). We could get into who is more correct over what (I would tend to gravitate to the official wiki over the general one, but that is obviously due to it supporting my point), or we could compare which factors apply and which do not. As to Steam, their definition of MMO is very wide to say the least and mostly only used to advertise a game with an additional feature, hardly worth mentioning as a hard fact (don't believe me, take a look at what games are tagged as Massively Multiplayer).

 

My examples were not chosen at random. Diablo and the Diablo franchise has more in common from a game design with Guild Wars 1 than most other games and definitely more in common than MMORPGS. (Limited amount of skills, a limited amount of players per instance, huge hub areas, limited trade, etc.)

 

League of Legends was chosen since it is synonymous with Esports growing out of its infant shoes alongside games like Counterstrike, Dota and StarCraft. The competitive aspects in League share similarities with Guild Wars 1 even though it's a different genre. Clear roles within a given team composition, horizontal power progression, easy to follow and understand game play, lane like structures with objectives. LoL shares more similarities with GW1 than most MMORPGs.

 

One could take the approach and argue that the term Massive Multiplayer Online Game has shifted by now and incorporates more games similar to Guild Wars 1 (limited in scope of players in the open world, sometimes no open world at all, less grind and limited amount of skills, etc.) when looking at some looter shooter games like Destiny. To that I would simply state: none of those games have produced a successful Esports game yet.

 

> @"HUSKAR.2506" said:

> > @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> > > @"HUSKAR.2506" said:

> > > anet is to busy creating a new living world episode that no one cares about

> >

> > Well i mean it's obvious more people care about LS more than Spvp, you can't tell me I'm wrong about that can you? ;)

>

> I think that people only care about LS because it's the only thing that this game have to offer. Improve old content, like doing more CMs on old raid bosses and dungeons, create more Hot Join modes for sPvP like 2v2s and 3v3s, more AT's and a Weekly tournament for GvGs ( AT format but for 15v15) . Also the price of gems in this game is INSANE for simple cosmetics that MOST of people buy for free with gold in-game. Raid/pve players want challenges, pvp players want better balancing and game modes, wvw players want GvG system and a solution to the skill lag

 

The people who buy those cosmetics for gold are not buying them for free. They are buying them with the time invested into acquiring said gold, while others are subsidizing their time spent in game by choosing the opposite, converting gems purchased with money to circumvent the time spent in game acquiring gold.

 

The simple fact that the gem-gold ratio maintains balanced would suggest that neither side vastly outperforms the other (from an absolute perspective of gems and gold entering the exchange).