Discussion Thread: ArenaNet News of 21 February 2019 [Merged]

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > When you buy that content, you bought the content that was part of those packages, period. Anything above and beyond that is just generally funded by Gem sales. And to say you didn't get you legendary stuff is wrong ... Anet is developing and releasing that stuff. They just haven't been explicit about when it gets released ... and that's what I'm talking about. You can't impose your own timelines and then say Anet isn't delivering based on your own self-imposed expectations. That's unreasonable.

> >

>

> They explicitly stated when it would be released...that is the point you are missing. It's not self-imposed expectations. If you buy HoT because you are promised 19 new legendaries, yet you are still waiting for them after a second paid expansion...then there is something wrong.

>

 

That makes no sense ... Anet never gave us a timeline for the release of those Gen 2 legendaries EVER. There isn't anything 'wrong' with their timelines here because they never gave us any ... your just making them up in your head and imposing them. That's unreasonable.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That makes no sense ... Anet never gave us a timeline for the release of those Gen 2 legendaries EVER. There isn't anything 'wrong' with their timelines here because they never gave us any ... your just making them up in your head and imposing them. That's unreasonable.

 

From their website:

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

"We aren’t quite ready to go into all the details here, but what I can say is you will see a specific way to build precursor items on your way to a legendary. On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013"

 

Then after Anet went back on their word to release a full set of HoT Legendaries

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Legendary-weapons-6/page/3..., 63 Pages and many people all stating the same thing. You are honestly going to tell me that everyone of those people made up the release of said items?

 

Here as well...

 

So all of these people are liars?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I'm saying that you got what you paid for, so your 'rights' as a consumer of this service aren't violated.

Of course they weren't. If they were, we wouldn't be talking about complains, but about a class suit.

 

> It's imply not reasonable to be upset for not getting things that Anet didn't explicitly define that you didn't purchase.

Considering that "being upset" is an emotion, it's not reasonable by definition. It's not dictated by reason but by feelings. And while Anet's actions are definitely legal and didn't cross the line where they could be actually held rersponsible, that doesn't mean we have to like what they did. Especially if we have a reason to think they tried to mislead us about the level of commitment they had to the game they were selling.

 

And, by the way - we _do_ have the right to complain. Why? Because we (well, most of us anyway) live in a free country. Anet doesn't have to listen to us (although if the complains aren't baseless, they probably should), but if we happen to be disappointed for any reason, we have every right to say so.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That makes no sense ... Anet never gave us a timeline for the release of those Gen 2 legendaries EVER.

They actually did say near the time of the reveal (when the first preorder sale started) that those were part of the expansion. They considered legendary weapons to be one of the major HoT features then. Only later they started to say thet only some of the legendaries will be in actual release - but that was _after_ many people already paid.

 

Still, it's besides the point. Strict adherence to the letter of the deal doesn't mean everything is automatically fine and noone has any right to complain. The other party can end up disappointed due to a multitude of things that maybe weren't explicitly specified, but were implied. Like, for example, the dev studio supporting the game to the best of their ability - and being clear with customers if they decide to lower that level of support/sideline the project. Because, you know, honesty isn't exactly obligatory, but still dishonesty is generally very frowned upon. And for a good reason.

 

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I'm saying that you got what you paid for, so your 'rights' as a consumer of this service aren't violated.

> Of course they weren't. If they were, we wouldn't be talking about complains, but about a class suit.

>

> > It's imply not reasonable to be upset for not getting things that Anet didn't explicitly define that you didn't purchase.

> Considering that "being upset" is an emotion, it's not reasonable by definition. It's not dictated by reason but by feelings. And while Anet's actions are definitely legal and didn't cross the line where they could be actually held rersponsible, that doesn't mean we have to like what they did. Especially if we have a reason to think they tried to mislead us about the level of commitment they had to the game they were selling.

>

> And, by the way - we _do_ have the right to complain. Why? Because we (well, most of us anyway) live in a free country. Anet doesn't have to listen to us (although if the complains aren't baseless, they probably should), but if we happen to be disappointed for any reason, we have every right to say so.

>

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > That makes no sense ... Anet never gave us a timeline for the release of those Gen 2 legendaries EVER.

> They actually did say near the time of the reveal (when the first preorder sale started) that those were part of the expansion. They considered legendary weapons to be one of the major HoT features then. Only later they started to say thet only some of the legendaries will be in actual release - but that was _after_ many people already paid.

>

> Still, it's besides the point. Strict adherence to the letter of the deal doesn't mean everything is automatically fine and noone has any right to complain. The other party can end up disappointed due to a multitude of things that maybe weren't explicitly specified, but were implied. Like, for example, the dev studio supporting the game to the best of their ability - and being clear with customers if they decide to lower that level of support/sideline the project. Because, you know, honesty isn't exactly obligatory, but still dishonesty is generally very frowned upon. And for a good reason.

>

>

>

>

 

They might have said they are part of the expansion ... they didn't give a timeline.

 

Look, the bottomline is that these things people are 'upset' about are not expectations Anet set. If you can't see that, you don't get what a set expectation actually IS. Anet never said when Gen 2 legendaries were to be released as example. Frankly, from what we can see, they were overly ambitious. So they scaled back and are still delivering that content ... that's not something to be upset about ... that's commendable. We are probably lucky they didn't outright cancel the whole idea and just implement Gen 2 legendaries like Gen 1. If these kinds of things are such a significant issue to people, speak with your wallet.

 

I think the most egregious thing about this discussion is the concept that people feel justified to create their own ideas of how Anet was supposed to do something, then get all upset about how Anet actually did or didn't do that thing ... for what amounts to mostly free content where Anet never set an expectation for delivery in the first place. That's absolutely ridiculous.

[mauried.5608]

No one is forced to play this game .

If you are upset with the game or you dont like the game , or dont like the Company that makes it then DONT PLAY IT.

Its not rocket science.

 

[Ryou.2398]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> No one is forced to play this game .

> If you are upset with the game or you dont like the game , or dont like the Company that makes it then DONT PLAY IT.

> Its not rocket science.

>

 

No one is also forced to agree with anyone's opinion this is a public forum if you people do not like their opinions on what they and do not have a right to be upset about then do not read these kinds of posts, I am applying to the same logic as these comments.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> They might have said they are part of the expansion ... they didn't give a timeline.

If you're buying a meal in a restaurant, they also don't give you a timeline. And yet somehow i feel you wouldn't be so understanding if you got told, after you paid, that the meal may be ready somewhere within a year. Please, do wait patiently, no reason to complain.[/sarcasm]

 

>

> Look, the bottomline is that these things people are 'upset' about are not expectations Anet set.

The people are upset because they fully expected for Anet to put more than a token effort into developing their own MMORPG. And Anet did nothing to defuse such apparently too high expectations.

 

> Anet never said when Gen 2 legendaries were to be released as example.

They listed them among major features of HoT expac. I don't think an expectation that a major feature of an expac will be released as part of said expac is unreasonable.

 

> Frankly, from what we can see, they were overly ambitious. So they scaled back and are still delivering that content ... that's not something to be upset about ... that's commendable.

See the restaurant example. Maybe it was too ambitious for the establishment to sell meals when they are yet to hire a cook, but hey, they realized that and decided to scale back. And they are still going to give you that meal, in a year or so. That's commendable, right?

 

> I think the most egregious thing about this discussion is the concept that people feel justified to create their own ideas of how Anet was supposed to do something, then get all upset about how Anet actually did or didn't do that thing ... for what amounts to mostly free content where Anet never set an expectation for delivery in the first place. That's absolutely ridiculous.

No. What's absolutely ridiculous is the thought that scaling down development _without informing customers beforehand_ is commendable and not something anyone could reasonably dislike. And that we're not allowed to complain about it.

 

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

~snip~

>

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> > There's one thing you're missing...there's probably a fair number of players that wouldn't consider any other game out there, because there isn't any other game like GW2, not matter what people might say. It is still very much it's own animal.

>

> I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Yes, there are people that stay loyal to a company but is settling for less because there's nothing "better", what you want? It's concerning to see a company lose anyone, let alone 35% of their employees in one go. All we can do is wait and see but if you've been with the game or following it over the past six years you should be able to see the decline.

>

>

What don't you understand, GW2 is not a cookie cutter MMORPG, you can't just go play another MMO out there and get the same experience or the same feel, that's what I'm taking about. As for seeing a decline over the last 6 years, I've been around from the very beginning...no wait, before the very beginning, played GW1 from the first E3FE and it was good at what it did. I also did not expect them to make a second version of that specific genre, I fully expected the second game to be more open world and lean towards the more "traditional" MMO style, but with an ArenaNet take. I also have taken the view that the quality has improved significantly between S1 and S4, unlike a lot of people, I don't expect to be offered the moon, I tend to keep my expectations grounded in reality(of what can and can't be done).

 

I'm also not talking about staying loyal to the company, but loyal to the game.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> They might have said they are part of the expansion ... they didn't give a timeline.

>

They actually did as I've already shown you.

 

> Look, the bottomline is that these things people are 'upset' about are not expectations Anet set. If you can't see that, you don't get what a set expectation actually IS. Anet never said when Gen 2 legendaries were to be released as example. Frankly, from what we can see, they were overly ambitious. So they scaled back and are still delivering that content ... that's not something to be upset about ... that's commendable. We are probably lucky they didn't outright cancel the whole idea and just implement Gen 2 legendaries like Gen 1. If these kinds of things are such a significant issue to people, speak with your wallet.

 

Once again they did. At the time of HoT's announcement they used legendaries as one (of many) selling points. They did this knowing full well that they couldn't actually deliver on said feature by release. They even acknowledge this later on after all the backlash... where they state how long it takes them to design and implement a SINGLE legendary. So, how can you advertise your product knowing full well that you can't deliver on it? If HoT is six months away and you are promising an entire new set upon release (19 weapons) and you know it takes you 2-4 months to make ONE, how can you, in good faith sell players on the fact that they will have an entire new set upon release? That is wrong on so many levels.

 

There are other things too, like back around the EOTM Beta, Nevermore's Raven Staff was datamined and players asked if it was one of the new legendaries that were promised. So even back in 2013/2014 at least some of the assets for the Gen 2 legendaries already existed.

 

Then once they scrapped the legendary journey after Chuka, instead of releasing the weapons in batches, they decided to tie them to PoF LW Episodes...So a feature promised and sold with HoT is locked behind PoF content.

 

So no, I don't think it's commendable to lie to your customers and not fully deliver on a product. It's one thing to run into issues and have to go back to the drawing board. It's another to sell something you know you don't have. It's wrong, distasteful and deceptive.

 

> I think the most egregious thing about this discussion is the concept that people feel justified to create their own ideas of how Anet was supposed to do something, then get all upset about how Anet actually did or didn't do that thing ... for what amounts to mostly free content where Anet never set an expectation for delivery in the first place. That's absolutely ridiculous.

 

Actually, the only egregious thing is that you are the one making baseless claims. You are deciding that Anet never gave a timeline when in fact they did. When being presented with evidence that proves contrary to your stance, you still won't even acknowledge that you may be mistaken. It seems that you are so blinded by the fact you enjoy the game or developer that you refuse to acknowledge any shortcomings they may have. The unfortunate part is that ideally the players voicing their concerns want the same thing as you, to see the game do well. Yet, you are so focused on standing your ground you seem to miss that point entirely.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> What don't you understand, GW2 is not a cookie cutter MMORPG, you can't just go play another MMO out there and get the same experience or the same feel, that's what I'm taking about. As for seeing a decline over the last 6 years, I've been around from the very beginning...no wait, before the very beginning, played GW1 from the first E3FE and it was good at what it did. I also did not expect them to make a second version of that specific genre, I fully expected the second game to be more open world and lean towards the more "traditional" MMO style, but with an ArenaNet take. I also have taken the view that the quality has improved significantly between S1 and S4, unlike a lot of people, I don't expect to be offered the moon, I tend to keep my expectations grounded in reality(of what can and can't be done).

> I'm also not talking about staying loyal to the company, but loyal to the game.

 

I'm not quite sure what to say here other than the fact that numbers don't lie. You may be okay with the current state of the game but it does not change what is still going on around you. I don't think any MMORPG is the same as any other, none give you the same experience. BDO has a targetless system where you have to aim where you want to direct your skills, classes locked behind race/gender, skills that chain based on how you use them. FFXIV has a more tactical system that's less spammy. B&S has Aerialish style combat, etc, etc. Every MMO is unique. GW2 happens to be on the more casual side which allows players to hop in and out of it pretty easily. It's combat is also fairly fluid which is fun for a lot of people.

 

Also, your experience with GW1 in this scenario is irrelevant because we are only referring to what is happening in GW2. I don' think players are not grounded in reality when a company sells them a product offering, X, Y, Z features and they expect to receive those. If you go to a restaurant and order a burger off the menu, you expect to receive what you paid for. So, if they brought you a bun with a meat patty but no pickles, onions, tomatoes, or cheese you have every right to be upset. The same goes for this product.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > They might have said they are part of the expansion ... they didn't give a timeline.

> >

> They actually did as I've already shown you.

>

> > Look, the bottomline is that these things people are 'upset' about are not expectations Anet set. If you can't see that, you don't get what a set expectation actually IS. Anet never said when Gen 2 legendaries were to be released as example. Frankly, from what we can see, they were overly ambitious. So they scaled back and are still delivering that content ... that's not something to be upset about ... that's commendable. We are probably lucky they didn't outright cancel the whole idea and just implement Gen 2 legendaries like Gen 1. If these kinds of things are such a significant issue to people, speak with your wallet.

>

> Once again they did. At the time of HoT's announcement they used legendaries as one (of many) selling points. They did this knowing full well that they couldn't actually deliver on said feature by release. They even acknowledge this later on after all the backlash... where they state how long it takes them to design and implement a SINGLE legendary. So, how can you advertise your product knowing full well that you can't deliver on it? If HoT is six months away and you are promising an entire new set upon release (19 weapons) and you know it takes you 2-4 months to make ONE, how can you, in good faith sell players on the fact that they will have an entire new set upon release? That is wrong on so many levels.

>

> There are other things too, like back around the EOTM Beta, Nevermore's Raven Staff was datamined and players asked if it was one of the new legendaries that were promised. So even back in 2013/2014 at least some of the assets for the Gen 2 legendaries already existed.

>

> Then once they scrapped the legendary journey after Chuka, instead of releasing the weapons in batches, they decided to tie them to PoF LW Episodes...So a feature promised and sold with HoT is locked behind PoF content.

>

> So no, I don't think it's commendable to lie to your customers and not fully deliver on a product. It's one thing to run into issues and have to go back to the drawing board. It's another to sell something you know you don't have. It's wrong, distasteful and deceptive.

>

> > I think the most egregious thing about this discussion is the concept that people feel justified to create their own ideas of how Anet was supposed to do something, then get all upset about how Anet actually did or didn't do that thing ... for what amounts to mostly free content where Anet never set an expectation for delivery in the first place. That's absolutely ridiculous.

>

> Actually, the only egregious thing is that you are the one making baseless claims. You are deciding that Anet never gave a timeline when in fact they did. When being presented with evidence that proves contrary to your stance, you still won't even acknowledge that you may be mistaken. It seems that you are so blinded by the fact you enjoy the game or developer that you refuse to acknowledge any shortcomings they may have. The unfortunate part is that ideally the players voicing their concerns want the same thing as you, to see the game do well. Yet, you are so focused on standing your ground you seem to miss that point entirely.

 

Hey, if you don't like it, don't patronize the game.I don't see what isn't reasonable here .. if Anet need to adjust their plans because their original plans aren't feasible for whatever reason, then so be it ... they didn't set any specific expectations for what we were getting anyways. The fact still remains that Anet does not set expectations about what they deliver when; at best those statements in the links you provided are vague; they aren't giving enough details to say Anet set expectations of exactly what we are getting when.

 

It's also really disingenuous to think Anet purposefully lies to you if something doesn't go they way you think it should either. Not forgetting none of us actually paid for that content as well ... but that's how entitlement works right? Complain when free stuff doesn't fit your own ideas of what you think you should get when you think you should get it? That's one big axe to grind right there.

 

 

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Hey, if you don't like it, don't patronize the game.I don't see what isn't reasonable here .. if Anet need to adjust their plans because their original plans aren't feasible for whatever reason, then so be it ... they didn't set any specific expectations for what we were getting anyways. The fact still remains that Anet does not set expectations about what they deliver when; at best those statements in the links you provided are vague; they aren't giving enough details to say Anet set expectations of exactly what we are getting when.

>

> It's also really disingenuous to think Anet purposefully lies to you if something doesn't go they way you think it should either. Not forgetting none of us actually paid for that content as well ... but that's how entitlement works right? Complain when free stuff doesn't fit your own ideas of what you think you should get when you think you should get it? That's one big axe to grind right there.

>

>

 

You flat out ignore everything you don’t agree with. You don’t have a single objective point in any single reply you’ve made to me. You CHOOSE to ignore evidence right in front of you. To top it off you act as if this game is a privilege and the player base should praise every scrap they are given...it’s ludicrous.

 

According to you the entire game is free and no one should ever have an opinion, except you and your opinion is apparently fact - even though you have nothing to back up what you state.

 

God forbid someone holds a developer accountable for features they pay for in a product.

 

So you win, you are the biggest troll I have ever come across. Hope it was worth it, enjoy reigning over a pile of nothing.

 

[Obtena.7952]

So my point that Anet didn't set detailed expectations for those items isn't objective enough for you? The fact that there is no way for someone to exchange their money for those specific items .... also not objective? There you have it I guess.

[blackheartgary.8605]

okay... i just want to ask a few questions from this very peaceful community that holds no ill will towards anyone and enjoys a healthy debate.

first, does the community expect, demand, are entitled to, answers about every single thing that the company releases, changes, or promotes about this game?

second, Does the community feel like not a single word has been uttered from the developers regarding a single release/change/promotion?

Third, do the people on this thread truly feel cheated or lied to by the company selling them product that they are choosing to buy?

I am making no hostile attacks, I am making not a single question directed towards a single person, and i am not making a single threatening comment.

I legitimately wanna know the answers.

I ask them because, with no attempt to sound rude intended, while i enjoy a healthy debate, I think after 17 pages of a thread we get down to brass tax, ask what the community wants, then get exact answers from the community.

IMO, it sounds like the community is asking for complete Transparency. it sounds like the community feels entitled to this Transparency.

I could be completely wrong, and yanno what? that's okay. Being wrong means i get to learn something new.

 

 

[Roquen.5406]

> @"blackheartgary.8605" said:

> okay... i just want to ask a few questions from this very peaceful community that holds no ill will towards anyone and enjoys a healthy debate.

> first, does the community expect, demand, are entitled to, answers about every single thing that the company releases, changes, or promotes about this game?

 

No, the community would like more transparency. As paying customers they have a right to know what their money is getting them and in light of what just happened people are a bit on edge and hesitant. When you buy a car do you just shell out money and you leave the lot with "features" to be added later? No, you sit down and go over exactly what you are paying for and you drive off with exactly that.

 

> second, Does the community feel like not a single word has been uttered from the developers regarding a single release/change/promotion?

 

Who said this? People want MORE communication, which is never a bad thing. Companies have entire departments devoted to this. There are cases where Anet does speak up but more often than not it seems their communication is reactive...only chiming in when there is an uproar. Once again, it's not unreasonable to want more communication from the game they are part of and supporting.

 

> Third, do the people on this thread truly feel cheated or lied to by the company selling them product that they are choosing to buy?

 

Your word choice is interesting here...they aren't upset that Anet sold them a product. They are concerned about what their money is getting them AND the future of the game, something they clearly want to spend MORE time with. Once again, let's say you paid for a burger at a restaurant. You ordered a BLT (Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato) but you were only served a burger with a bun and lettuce, would you be okay with that? You are still getting a burger in this case but it's not quite what you paid for.

 

> I am making no hostile attacks, I am making not a single question directed towards a single person, and i am not making a single threatening comment.

> I legitimately wanna know the answers.

> I ask them because, with no attempt to sound intended, while i enjoy a healthy debate, I think after 17 pages of a thread we get down to brass tax, ask what the community wants, then get exact answers from the community.

> IMO, it sounds like the community is asking for complete Transparency. it sounds like the community feels entitled to this Transparency.

> I could be completely wrong, and yanno what? that's okay. Being wrong means i get to learn something new.

>

So overall, people are looking for more communication and transparency and others are looking for a roadmap. Does Anet have to deliver on these things? No, but it could be a nice show of good faith. I personally don't think it's unreasonable to ask to be communicated with. In fact I think an open line of communication could help ease people's worries.

 

I guess there's another side to this in that maybe people shouldn't invest so much in a game (emotionally). But that passion is what keeps people supporting the game. Sure, everyone could play the game for some months, hop off and move to the next but if too many people did there wouldn't be anyone left to support it.

 

I've said it before but that's why the quality of the relationship between the customer and business is important. Anet provides a product that the players get to enjoy and in return they support the game, so that Anet can keep doing what it's passionate about. Without one or the other it doesn't work.

 

**Bear in mind this is my opinion - I am not speaking as if my word is fact but just how I have observed things unfold.**

[blackheartgary.8605]

Thank you.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"blackheartgary.8605" said:

> > okay... i just want to ask a few questions from this very peaceful community that holds no ill will towards anyone and enjoys a healthy debate.

> > first, does the community expect, demand, are entitled to, answers about every single thing that the company releases, changes, or promotes about this game?

>

> No, the community would like more transparency. As paying customers they have a right to know what their money is getting them and in light of what just happened people are a bit on edge and hesitant. When you buy a car do you just shell out money and you leave the lot with "features" to be added later? No, you sit down and go over exactly what you are paying for and you drive off with exactly that.

>

> > second, Does the community feel like not a single word has been uttered from the developers regarding a single release/change/promotion?

>

> Who said this? People want MORE communication, which is never a bad thing. Companies have entire departments devoted to this. There are cases where Anet does speak up but more often than not it seems their communication is reactive...only chiming in when there is an uproar. Once again, it's not unreasonable to want more communication from the game they are part of and supporting.

>

> > Third, do the people on this thread truly feel cheated or lied to by the company selling them product that they are choosing to buy?

>

> Your word choice is interesting here...they aren't upset that Anet sold them a product. They are concerned about what their money is getting them AND the future of the game, something they clearly want to spend MORE time with. Once again, let's say you paid for a burger at a restaurant. You ordered a BLT (Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato) but you were only served a burger with a bun and lettuce, would you be okay with that? You are still getting a burger in this case but it's not quite what you paid for.

>

> > I am making no hostile attacks, I am making not a single question directed towards a single person, and i am not making a single threatening comment.

> > I legitimately wanna know the answers.

> > I ask them because, with no attempt to sound intended, while i enjoy a healthy debate, I think after 17 pages of a thread we get down to brass tax, ask what the community wants, then get exact answers from the community.

> > IMO, it sounds like the community is asking for complete Transparency. it sounds like the community feels entitled to this Transparency.

> > I could be completely wrong, and yanno what? that's okay. Being wrong means i get to learn something new.

> >

> So overall, people are looking for more communication and transparency and others are looking for a roadmap. Does Anet have to deliver on these things? No, but it could be a nice show of good faith. I personally don't think it's unreasonable to ask to be communicated with. In fact I think an open line of communication could help ease people's worries.

>

> I guess there's another side to this in that maybe people shouldn't invest so much in a game (emotionally). But that passion is what keeps people supporting the game. Sure, everyone could play the game for some months, hop off and move to the next but if too many people did there wouldn't be anyone left to support it.

>

> I've said it before but that's why the quality of the relationship between the customer and business is important. Anet provides a product that the players get to enjoy and in return they support the game, so that Anet can keep doing what it's passionate about. Without one or the other it doesn't work.

>

> **Bear in mind this is my opinion - I am not speaking as if my word is fact but just how I have observed things unfold.**

 

Yes, it is your opinion, which everyone is allowed to give, however, if you've been around since the beginning of GW2 then you might recall the early days when they were very transparent and communicated a lot of their intentions as to what was being worked on and upcoming. You also might recall the huge backlash from said community when some of those things didn't happen, mind you, nothing was ever promised in stone as coming, just that it was being worked on and when ArenaNet said they couldn't deliver "X" there was an uproar with people literally saying...you said we would get, blah, blah, blah. Just how many times do you think a company is going to keep telling the community they're working on X, Y, and Z, then only come to realize they can't delivery X and Z but only Y. The company then tells the community, sorry, we are unable to deliver X and Z, but we can deliver Y(without a time frame, just that it can be done)...and the community turns right around and blasts the company and devs for "promising" to deliver X and Z and now they're going back on their "promise"(when no such promise was made). That's the reason we have the communication protocol we have now...is it ideal, does it make players happy...in a nutshell, no, but it is what we have and I and many others have put the blame on the community itself for the situation we're in regarding communication.

 

As for people that bought gems and thought they were helping to support GW2, you were and are, but the money went to ArenaNet, the company, not to GW2 the game, so what they did with that money was for them to determine it's best use...it didn't work out so you go back to the drawing board. Welcome to the world of business, almost all consumer goods companies work this way...any company that produces a product used by people(and getting right down to it that's what game companies are) will almost always take some of the revenue from their existing products and put them into R&D, otherwise eventually you'll go out of business without something new to offer your customers.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> ~snippy snip~

 

Per your first point, yes I remember that and I (and many others) appreciated the extra communication back then. Even if I may not have agreed with them on certain things from time to time, it was nice to know that they cared enough to share their plans with us. I also think that it's important to look at this from a different perspective. You keep putting the onus on the players for some reason.

 

Gen 2 legendaries are a perfect example of this. Anet had been working on some system(s) since around 2013 for new legendary weapons, the raven skin was data-mined back then (so at least some parts of the skins may have existed because we had proof of at least one). They mentioned that they had to go back to the drawing board a few times and eventually those legendaries got pushed into HoT. They directly marketed the weapons as HoT legendaries and that we would get a full set with HoT. The closer it got to release the more this changed, from 19 to 16 to 4 to 3 and then releases in small handfuls. Then post-release, they got postponed indefinitely and then tied to releases without the crafting journey quest line and ultimately one per PoF LW Episode when it got down to it. To put that into perspective, something that was sold as a first expansion item has still not been fully released over a year into the second expansion.

 

At some point they explained the process of the legendary journey and how it essentially takes many months to do just ONE. If you know that it takes you let's say two months to design and implement a single weapon. How...in good faith...can you promise to deliver 19 of them upon release when it's only six months away - the math just does not add up. So, here we have a case of Anet marketing and selling something that they knew full well they could not deliver by release but they still used it as selling point.

 

The reason I bring this up is because this was a situation that Anet put themselves in and it understandably backfired. Unfortunately, Anet has a track record of promising things that they can't always deliver on. Whether it's because they are overly ambitious, mismanaged, getting pressure from their parent company to release things on certain dates, I couldn't tell you but I can tell you that it is not the fault of the player-base.

 

So, in your examples if X, Y, and Z are things Anet knew they couldn't deliver on then that is mishandled on their end and I'm not sure why you would punish the player in this case. I'm not sure where you and other posters keep getting "Anet never set dates in stone, just stated we are working on X." because that is false you cannot sell a product on hope, you need something tangible. Also, your "everyone complained when they did do that!", is anecdotal. For every player that complained there were just as many that appreciated the open line of communication.

 

For your second point, you and others keep making this comparison. Let's make it really simple, without a player-base (their customers) there is no game - no game - no company. So it would behoove a company to do right by their player-base so that they can keep supporting it. You can argue the semantics of how a company works but that's the bottom-line. No one has a problem with a company deciding to put money into R&D. The problem that people have is doing so at the expense of your main product. They literally siphoned teams to other projects for 2-3-4-5 YEARS and from all that time there wasn't something tangible enough for NCSoft to say - okay. They don't scrap years of work if something can come of it. You could see the game suffering in all aspects. And ultimately that is where the issue lies.

[hellsqueen.3045]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> ~snip~

> >

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> >

> > > There's one thing you're missing...there's probably a fair number of players that wouldn't consider any other game out there, because there isn't any other game like GW2, not matter what people might say. It is still very much it's own animal.

> >

> > I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Yes, there are people that stay loyal to a company but is settling for less because there's nothing "better", what you want? It's concerning to see a company lose anyone, let alone 35% of their employees in one go. All we can do is wait and see but if you've been with the game or following it over the past six years you should be able to see the decline.

> >

> >

> What don't you understand, GW2 is not a cookie cutter MMORPG, you can't just go play another MMO out there and get the same experience or the same feel, that's what I'm taking about. As for seeing a decline over the last 6 years, I've been around from the very beginning...no wait, before the very beginning, played GW1 from the first E3FE and it was good at what it did. I also did not expect them to make a second version of that specific genre, I fully expected the second game to be more open world and lean towards the more "traditional" MMO style, but with an ArenaNet take. I also have taken the view that the quality has improved significantly between S1 and S4, unlike a lot of people, I don't expect to be offered the moon, I tend to keep my expectations grounded in reality(of what can and can't be done).

>

> I'm also not talking about staying loyal to the company, but loyal to the game.

 

I think some people also have flawed expectations of GW2 when coming from GW1 and I think it became and extremely noticeable with Path Of Fire and many people being disappointed in the handling of the Crystal Desert and expected to see more about the events from Nightfall and people still coping with all of that and to that I say, the Crystal Desert is exactly as it should be with GW2 and there shouldn't be all that much with Nightfall events about there.

This is because if you look at a timeline on the GW2 wiki:

Nightfall Campaign Begins: 1075 AE

Your characters personal story story: 1325 AE

Events of Path of Fire: 1330 AE

 

They have had more than 200 years to recover from that, what do people think they did for 200 years? Sat around waiting for the Commander to show up who likely wasn't even born yet to come help?

 

And after researching a ton of law with my guild in the past few days, there is a lot of stuff that lines up. While GW2 doesn't always cover the lore from the first game, there is tons of it there and a lot of it is really well done and leaves you with a lot to think about.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> Yes, it is your opinion, which everyone is allowed to give, however, if you've been around since the beginning of GW2 then you might recall the early days when they were very transparent and communicated a lot of their intentions as to what was being worked on and upcoming.

That stopped at launch. Remember, that 3 months later it took a massive backlash for Anet to deign to say anything about their reason for Ascended, and even then they were really evasive about it (like claiming ascended gear was a part of original plan, which we learned few years later wasn't true). That moment probably marks the point when any communication between the devs and the players went really, really bad. And it's only a moment when it was _noticed_, because it really happened before. Ascended, afer all, were something that completely surprised the community, even though it wasn't something Anet made in a week.

 

> You also might recall the huge backlash from said community when some of those things didn't happen

You might also recall that the backlash wasn't really because those things didn't happen. It was because they suddenly _stopped communicating_, and people didn't know some of the stuff has been abandoned/delayed. Until they were accidentally told that _a year later_, in passing. At the moment when Anet communication was already at its lowest and people were already dissappointed by that.

 

In short, it was always bad communication that was at the root of all the things you speak of.

 

> As for people that bought gems and thought they were helping to support GW2, you were and are, but the money went to ArenaNet, the company, not to GW2 the game, so what they did with that money was for them to determine it's best use...

Yeah. We know. We also know that what they decided to use those money for might have been good for the company, but was definitely bad for _GW2 players_.

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > ~snippy snip~

 

> At some point they explained the process of the legendary journey and how it essentially takes many months to do just ONE. If you know that it takes you let's say two months to design and implement a single weapon. How...in good faith...can you promise to deliver 19 of them upon release when it's only six months away - the math just does not add up. So, here we have a case of Anet marketing and selling something that they knew full well they could not deliver by release but they still used it as selling point.

>

I'm just going to focus on this right here. HoT was in development for 2 years, 24 months and I'm pretty confident that a new set of Legendaries was part of the design from the beginning. That's 19 weapons and their corresponding crafting journey needed to be completed, now, 19 out of 24 sounds reasonable, but as we all found out it took far longer to create not only the weapons themselves but the whole "legendary journey" to obtain those weapons and it had to be scaled back because it was taking so long per weapon. We can argue back and forth whether or not ArenaNet was marketing something they couldn't deliver, but in the end it's going to be a matter of semantics, as they got closer to release they realized they wouldn't be able to complete the entire process for each weapon in time, so they scaled back the number to be included at release. Then they decided to completely scrap the whole legendary journey part and started all over from the beginning on how the rest of the collection would be obtained, at this point HoT was already released and any future legendary weapons would be indefinitely postponed while they came up with a new method of acquisition. Was the communication from ArenaNet about this change perfect, was there any...yes and no, and like with anything else in this world, you can't please everyone.

 

I presume we can also agree that the number of people who complain on the forums and Reddit are actually a minority of the customer base, most but not all, players are in what is called the "silent majority". We could go on and on and on about this, but in the end we're just going to keep disagreeing because we have a difference of opinions on what amount or kind of communication from ArenaNet we should see and get.

 

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > Yes, it is your opinion, which everyone is allowed to give, however, if you've been around since the beginning of GW2 then you might recall the early days when they were very transparent and communicated a lot of their intentions as to what was being worked on and upcoming.

> That stopped at launch. Remember, that 3 months later it took a massive backlash for Anet to deign to say anything about their reason for Ascended, and even then they were really evasive about it (like claiming ascended gear was a part of original plan, which we learned few years later wasn't true). That moment probably marks the point when any communication between the devs and the players went really, really bad. And it's only a moment when it was _noticed_, because it really happened before. Ascended, after all, were something that completely surprised the community, even though it wasn't something Anet made in a week.

>

> > You also might recall the huge backlash from said community when some of those things didn't happen

> You might also recall that the backlash wasn't really because those things didn't happen. It was because they suddenly _stopped communicating_, and people didn't know some of the stuff has been abandoned/delayed. Until they were accidentally told that _a year later_, in passing. At the moment when Anet communication was already at its lowest and people were already disappointed by that.

>

> In short, it was always bad communication that was at the root of all the things you speak of.

>

~snip~

 

You're correct, and there was a segment of the community that knew all those things before the vast majority(not talking about partners or media or YouTubers, but "others" that had inside information)of which I was once a part of, and a select few of those would take it upon themselves to blab to the community either before or after the fact, knowing full well they were breaking a commitment they had made to ArenaNet to keep quiet. Communication is usually a two way street, but I have this perspective from own personal thoughts about the subject. I actually follow the ArenaNet model, only slightly modified, I'll talk about something, but if you assume or don't listen, you can forget about hearing something from me again...now people might say that's petty or vindictive, but my time is limited and I don't want to waste it on those that don't pay attention or misconstrue what I say. For me, I don't really care what's coming up in this game or what changes are being made...it's not like this is Fallout 76 where it's a complete disaster and pretty much still rather unplayable until the devs get their kitten together...for that I needed to see the roadmap. For this game, I know there's a storyboard that had the entire outline of the story from beginning to end on it, are they still loosely adhering to that storyboard...well, that I don't know and personally doesn't matter, as long as the story appears to be cohesive I'm fine with the way things are. Of course, that's just my opinion and might not reflect what others want to see, which is fine with me, I just play the game to have fun, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> You're correct, and there was a segment of the community that knew all those things before the vast majority(not talking about partners or media or YouTubers, but "others" that had inside information)of which I was once a part of, and a select few of those would take it upon themselves to blab to the community either before or after the fact, knowing full well they were breaking a commitment they had made to ArenaNet to keep quiet.

Not sure what's your point here. Did they communicate with the community (as opposed to selected few)? No, they didn't. Did they stop communicating with the community long before the things you brought up originally happened? Yes, they did.

 

All the problems you brought up were caused by lack of communication, and could have been solved if Anet was actually better in that regard. Unfortunately, the times when they were actually at those levels _ended_ with GW2 launch (or, more precisely, with the last beta event preceding the launch). In this, GW1 was way superior.

 

> Communication is usually a two way street, but I have this perspective from own personal thoughts about the subject. I actually follow the ArenaNet model, only slightly modified, I'll talk about something, but if you assume or don't listen, you can forget about hearing something from me again... now people might say that's petty or vindictive, but my time is limited and I don't want to waste it on those that don't pay attention or misconstrue what I say.

Then you're probably not running business where it is important to have good communication with your clients (because success of your business depends heavily not only on its quality, but also on how it is _perceived_). Besides, you obviously don't really act that way at all (or you would no longer be posting on these forums).

 

> For me, I don't really care what's coming up in this game or what changes are being made...it's not like this is Fallout 76 where it's a complete disaster and pretty much still rather unplayable until the devs get their kitten together...for that I needed to see the roadmap.

You don't care, but many do. For me, i am lacking a lot of info that is crucial for me in order to decide whether to continue investing my time and feelings in this game, or is it the time when i should say goodbye. And i'm pretty sure that the fact that Anet is withholding that info is pretty deliberate on their side - they know that some of their decisions won't be liked, so they want to delay players learning of this (and possibly leaving) for as long as possible.

Personally, i consider this to be quite dishonest. Even if it may be a good business in the short term, it definitely doesn't help with building trust between players and devs. Quite the opposite.

 

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> ~snippity snip~

> I'm just going to focus on this right here. HoT was in development for 2 years, 24 months and I'm pretty confident that a new set of Legendaries was part of the design from the beginning. That's 19 weapons and their corresponding crafting journey needed to be completed, now, 19 out of 24 sounds reasonable, but as we all found out it took far longer to create not only the weapons themselves but the whole "legendary journey" to obtain those weapons and it had to be scaled back because it was taking so long per weapon. We can argue back and forth whether or not ArenaNet was marketing something they couldn't deliver, but in the end it's going to be a matter of semantics, as they got closer to release they realized they wouldn't be able to complete the entire process for each weapon in time, so they scaled back the number to be included at release. Then they decided to completely scrap the whole legendary journey part and started all over from the beginning on how the rest of the collection would be obtained, at this point HoT was already released and any future legendary weapons would be indefinitely postponed while they came up with a new method of acquisition. Was the communication from ArenaNet about this change perfect, was there any...yes and no, and like with anything else in this world, you can't please everyone.

>

 

Well first of all new legendaries were in the works back in 2012/2013 before HoT was ever a thing - remember they were going to be introduced for free into the core game. They had some idea that they scrapped. Eventually they started with the legendary system they introduced into HoT. But there was no back to the drawing board, they scrapped the quest part and just made it like Gen 1 - materials and some map parts. The problem is that when they announced HoT they already knew how intensive the process was and at that point they only had a few even "close" to done. Yet, they still marketed them - that is where the issue lies.

 

[Game of Bones.8975]

I haven’t been keeping up on the whole employee firing saga so excuse me if this has already been discussed, I couldn’t find it in another post.

 

I know there were a sizable number of ANET employees let go recently, but the game will still go on as planned. Does this mean those permanent positions are being replaced with temporary (project-based) employees? I’ve seen it at many other companies. In order to cut overhead, they use contractors or contingent workers to handle certain jobs and then they go away when that job is done.

 

If they are cutting their employee base by nearly half without replacing them, I’d like to see their business model for the next 3-5 years.

 

What's the future hold for ANET and us?

 

[Randulf.7614]

Various people were laid off or took voluntary redundancy due to other "unannounced projects" being canned. What has essentially happened is that everyone who is still left has been re-merged back into the development of GW2 exclusively rather than doing other things. There will be re-structuring of teams and priorities no doubt.

 

As for contractors, contigency workers and so forth, that info falls under the remit of "none of our business", but it seems unlikely given they still have a very sizeable team of people there and those who left will likely be replaced by those coming back in from the other projects.