Why kill power chrono?

[Me Games Ma.8426]

@"mortrialus.3062"

Alright let me confront you with facts here:

When HoT released Tempest was a DPS god and was able to support a bit. Then they buffed the support capabilities and over time slowly nerfed dps tempest.

Then when PoF released they brought a patch that caused tempest to fall behind weaver and weaver became the best dps. Tempest as of now is still a playable dps **but** it is not the best for ele and that is whst I expect to happen to mesmer as well.

 

Chrono should stay a good power dps option until they release a dedicated pDPS spec. From that point on chrono should be a viable (but slightly worse) pick if you prefer the playstyle.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> @"mortrialus.3062"

> Alright let me confront you with facts here:

> When HoT released Tempest was a DPS god and was able to support a bit. Then they buffed the support capabilities and over time slowly nerfed dps tempest.

> Then when PoF released they brought a patch that caused tempest to fall behind weaver and weaver became the best dps. Tempest as of now is still a playable dps **but** it is not the best for ele and that is whst I expect to happen to mesmer as well.

>

> Chrono should stay a good power dps option until they release a dedicated pDPS spec. From that point on chrono should be a viable (but slightly worse) pick if you prefer the playstyle.

 

I want my permanent stealth top DPS build. Why are you ruining my flavor? Why can't I play what I want to play in the style I want to plaY?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

Mort coming in with the expert bait again.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062"

> > Alright let me confront you with facts here:

> > When HoT released Tempest was a DPS god and was able to support a bit. Then they buffed the support capabilities and over time slowly nerfed dps tempest.

> > Then when PoF released they brought a patch that caused tempest to fall behind weaver and weaver became the best dps. Tempest as of now is still a playable dps **but** it is not the best for ele and that is whst I expect to happen to mesmer as well.

> >

> > Chrono should stay a good power dps option until they release a dedicated pDPS spec. From that point on chrono should be a viable (but slightly worse) pick if you prefer the playstyle.

>

> I want my permanent stealth top DPS build. Why are you ruining my flavor? Why can't I play what I want to play in the style I want to plaY?

 

It's only bait if it's funny.

 

(and no, having multiple playstyles/options be viable does not reduce build diversity, that almost sounds like an oxymoron.)

 

You are also wrong about chronomancer flavour being about supporting, in reality the design is based on manipulating time, which fits all playstyles (see condi chrono in pvp).

 

You are also wrong about Mirage being "the dps spec". If anything it is the **condition spec**. So if anything, power suits chrono/core more.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062"

> > > Alright let me confront you with facts here:

> > > When HoT released Tempest was a DPS god and was able to support a bit. Then they buffed the support capabilities and over time slowly nerfed dps tempest.

> > > Then when PoF released they brought a patch that caused tempest to fall behind weaver and weaver became the best dps. Tempest as of now is still a playable dps **but** it is not the best for ele and that is whst I expect to happen to mesmer as well.

> > >

> > > Chrono should stay a good power dps option until they release a dedicated pDPS spec. From that point on chrono should be a viable (but slightly worse) pick if you prefer the playstyle.

> >

> > I want my permanent stealth top DPS build. Why are you ruining my flavor? Why can't I play what I want to play in the style I want to plaY?

>

> It's only bait if it's funny.

>

> (and no, having multiple playstyles/options be viable does not reduce build diversity, that almost sounds like an oxymoron.)

I think it's a fitting, sarcastic rebuttle to someone who thinks nonsense like Druid as a specializations should out DPS Soulbeast.

 

> You are also wrong about chronomancer flavour being about supporting, in reality the design is based on manipulating time, which fits all playstyles (see condi chrono in pvp).

Chronomancer flavor was always about 1. Supporting allies through time manipulation, speeding up their actions and reducing their cooldowns including resetting your own cooldowns through continuum split. Heck there's even a trait to make wells heal allies. 2. Controlling enemies through stuns, and especially the Slow condition. 3. Having a wealth of defensive options like the Shield skill as well as Well of Precognition.

 

Condi Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns was a fallback option that happened when support bunker chronomancer ended up being so overpowered Arenanet smiter's booned that aspect of the spec as well as any build to ever reach that build's level of survivability and sustain ever again by nuking defensive amulets in PvP.

 

Power DPS Chronomancer was an accident that happened because of a poorly thought out attempt to keep Chronophantasma's flavor after the Phantasm update despite how fundamentally unbalancable it is. Pre-February 2018 Power PvE Chrono was never a thing.

 

> You are also wrong about Mirage being "the dps spec". If anything it is the **condition spec**. So if anything, power suits chrono/core more.

 

I'm sorry I didn't realize damaging conditions didn't do damage.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062"

> > > > Alright let me confront you with facts here:

> > > > When HoT released Tempest was a DPS god and was able to support a bit. Then they buffed the support capabilities and over time slowly nerfed dps tempest.

> > > > Then when PoF released they brought a patch that caused tempest to fall behind weaver and weaver became the best dps. Tempest as of now is still a playable dps **but** it is not the best for ele and that is whst I expect to happen to mesmer as well.

> > > >

> > > > Chrono should stay a good power dps option until they release a dedicated pDPS spec. From that point on chrono should be a viable (but slightly worse) pick if you prefer the playstyle.

> > >

> > > I want my permanent stealth top DPS build. Why are you ruining my flavor? Why can't I play what I want to play in the style I want to plaY?

> >

> > It's only bait if it's funny.

> >

> > (and no, having multiple playstyles/options be viable does not reduce build diversity, that almost sounds like an oxymoron.)

> I think it's a fitting, sarcastic rebuttle to someone who thinks nonsense like Druid as a specializations should out DPS Soulbeast.

>

> > You are also wrong about chronomancer flavour being about supporting, in reality the design is based on manipulating time, which fits all playstyles (see condi chrono in pvp).

> Chronomancer flavor was always about 1. Supporting allies through time manipulation, speeding up their actions and reducing their cooldowns including resetting your own cooldowns through continuum split. Heck there's even a trait to make wells heal allies. 2. Controlling enemies through stuns, and especially the Slow condition. 3. Having a wealth of defensive options like the Shield skill as well as Well of Precognition.

>

> Condi Chronomancer in Heart of Thorns was a fallback option that happened when support bunker chronomancer ended up being so overpowered Arenanet smiter's booned that aspect of the spec as well as any build to ever reach that build's level of survivability and sustain ever again by nuking defensive amulets in PvP.

>

> Power DPS Chronomancer was an accident that happened because of a poorly thought out attempt to keep Chronophantasma's flavor after the Phantasm update despite how fundamentally unbalancable it is. Pre-February 2018 Power PvE Chrono was never a thing.

>

> > You are also wrong about Mirage being "the dps spec". If anything it is the **condition spec**. So if anything, power suits chrono/core more.

>

> I'm sorry I didn't realize damaging conditions didn't do damage.

 

I sometimes/often agree with your posts but this is just so incredibly wrong.

The fact that there is one(!) trait that makes wells heal allies has no relevance to the theme of the specialization whatsoever. So let's go through the traits:

 

The shield is there because it fills a niche that was lacking in the Mesmer arsenal, in no way is Chronomancer designed around it (there isn't even a trait for it).

**Minors:** continuum split (every playstyle), alacrity on shatter (every playstyle esp. clone heavy shatter builds with DE for example), movement speed (every playstyle).

**Adept:** one trait for interrupt/cc builds (power), one trait for shatter builds, one trait for support builds.

**Master:** one trait for interrupt/cc builds (power), one trait for shatter builds, one trait for support builds (arguably).

**Grandmaster:** one trait for interrupt/cc builds (power), one trait for shatter builds, one trait for phantasm builds (arguably).

Do you see a pattern?

 

 

I mean, I am 100% certain I won't convince you because that is impossible in internet arguments even if I would have a figurative mountain of evidence.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

> Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

 

Tempest is not meta in fractals anymore due to lose of boons from chaos chrono

[Odik.4587]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

> > Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

>

> Tempest is not meta in fractals anymore due to lose of boons from chaos chrono

 

https://discretize.eu/builds

Im keep getting old thing... ? They had new with updated builds but cant find it anymore lol...

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

> > > Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

> >

> > Tempest is not meta in fractals anymore due to lose of boons from chaos chrono

>

> https://discretize.eu/builds

> Im keep getting old thing... ? They had new with updated builds but cant find it anymore lol...

 

It's in "gr8" now. Still good, but can't be compared to dh, sb, weaver anymore. And chrono can't be as well after nerfs.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

> > > > Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

> > >

> > > Tempest is not meta in fractals anymore due to lose of boons from chaos chrono

> >

> > https://discretize.eu/builds

> > Im keep getting old thing... ? They had new with updated builds but cant find it anymore lol...

>

> It's in "gr8" now. Still good, but can't be compared to dh, sb, weaver anymore. And chrono can't be as well after nerfs.

 

Found it finally . I was playing with good static for a while and ele swapped to tempest at some fractals while CHRONO is still marked as 'great' even without nerf and share same spot with tempest :joy:

[Safandula.8723]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > His assumption chronomancer is about being completely support spec are coming from wells ?

> > > > > Tempest is 1 of meta builds (in fractals at least). Who say its BAD?

> > > >

> > > > Tempest is not meta in fractals anymore due to lose of boons from chaos chrono

> > >

> > > https://discretize.eu/builds

> > > Im keep getting old thing... ? They had new with updated builds but cant find it anymore lol...

> >

> > It's in "gr8" now. Still good, but can't be compared to dh, sb, weaver anymore. And chrono can't be as well after nerfs.

>

> Found it finally . I was playing with good static for a while and ele swapped to tempest at some fractals while CHRONO is still marked as 'great' even without nerf and share same spot with tempest :joy:

 

Chrono shines at few bosses, but the main problem is its CD on cs. For example on Arti cm, with good dps and fast cc breaking, u won't get ur cs for next phase. But this nerf is rly not needed imo

[Solis.4915]

Power Chrono was amazing in the short time i got to use it. R.I.P

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I never liked Chrono DPS. Chronomancer is the support build that buffs allies with quickness and alacrity as well as having tons of defensive options. Mirage is the DPS spec. Elite specializations need to be balanced around unique niches for them to be in a healthy state. This is like if Druids were suddenly the best ranger DPS build. It's not healthy for the game's balance if Druid does both it's role and Soubleast's role better than Soulbeast did.

 

pChrono is power dps, Mirage is condi dps, they can coexist just fine. And it's not like mirage is struggling, it's the meta pick for several raid bosses.

 

And you realise this us not limited to mesmer, right? Firebrand can be both support and condi dps, same for Renegade. In general, all classes should have capable builds for both power and condi, Mirage alone is not enough.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > The initial class burp was all focused on support chrono and mirage, and then you have this here sneaky little change:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "• Signet of the Ether: This skill's recharge time now begins at the same time as phantasm skills are recharged."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? Why completely kill dps chrono without any compensatory buff? Even a nerf to Danger Time without at least reworking it so that it becomes a lot more realistic to take in pve scenarios, since slow uptime is quite limited.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The dps numbers were perfectly in-line with the rest of the meta, the rotation was fun and engaging, and we are not going to get a new expansion for quite a while, so it's not like mesmer was going to get a power spec any time soon. So of course the most logical thing to do was kill power chrono. To say that I'm extremely disappointed is putting it lightly.

> > > > >

> > > > > I never liked Chrono DPS. Chronomancer is the support build that buffs allies with quickness and alacrity as well as having tons of defensive options. Mirage is the DPS spec. Elite specializations need to be balanced around unique niches for them to be in a healthy state. This is like if Druids were suddenly the best ranger DPS build. It's not healthy for the game's balance if Druid does both it's role and Soubleast's role better than Soulbeast did.

> > > >

> > > > Yea it's definitely not healthy if support build would make high dps, but what's ur problem with chrono in zerk dealing meta dps? I don't think chronophantasma was meant to be support trait. It s good for game if 1 spec can do multiple roles

> > >

> > > Chronophantasma was originally built in a way that was only good on support because for PvE Power mesmer before Path of Fire you never wanted to shatter your phantasms. You let them ramp up with Phantasmal Force and leave them be. Where as support frequently did shatter for things like Continuum Split, Distortion, and Distraction.

> > >

> > > Chronophantasma effectively doubling the damage of phantasms was a poorly thought out attempt to try and keep the flavor of old chronophantasma and never really made sense. A lot of things about the phantasm update weren't particularly well thought out.

> >

> > OK but still what's ur problem with specs having more than 1 role. It would be bad for build diversity

>

> What's going to be bad for diversity is if the next mesmer elite spec is a dedicated high DPS less bursty power spec and has absolutely no place in the game because if you want Power DPS Chronomancer will be better.

 

We won't have an expansion for at least 2 years, this is a bad argument. If the next spec is a proper power spec, then chrono can be support only, but until that happens there's no reason to go 2 years without having a viable power build for mesmer.

[otto.5684]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The initial class burp was all focused on support chrono and mirage, and then you have this here sneaky little change:

> > > >

> > > > "• Signet of the Ether: This skill's recharge time now begins at the same time as phantasm skills are recharged."

> > > >

> > > > Why? Why completely kill dps chrono without any compensatory buff? Even a nerf to Danger Time without at least reworking it so that it becomes a lot more realistic to take in pve scenarios, since slow uptime is quite limited.

> > > >

> > > > The dps numbers were perfectly in-line with the rest of the meta, the rotation was fun and engaging, and we are not going to get a new expansion for quite a while, so it's not like mesmer was going to get a power spec any time soon. So of course the most logical thing to do was kill power chrono. To say that I'm extremely disappointed is putting it lightly.

> > >

> > > I never liked Chrono DPS. Chronomancer is the support build that buffs allies with quickness and alacrity as well as having tons of defensive options. Mirage is the DPS spec. Elite specializations need to be balanced around unique niches for them to be in a healthy state. This is like if Druids were suddenly the best ranger DPS build. It's not healthy for the game's balance if Druid does both it's role and Soubleast's role better than Soulbeast did.

> >

> > Yea it's definitely not healthy if support build would make high dps, but what's ur problem with chrono in zerk dealing meta dps? I don't think chronophantasma was meant to be support trait. It s good for game if 1 spec can do multiple roles

>

> Chronophantasma was originally built in a way that was only good on support because for PvE Power mesmer before Path of Fire you never wanted to shatter your phantasms. You let them ramp up with Phantasmal Force and leave them be. Where as support frequently did shatter for things like Continuum Split, Distortion, and Distraction.

>

> Chronophantasma effectively doubling the damage of phantasms was a poorly thought out attempt to try and keep the flavor of old chronophantasma and never really made sense. A lot of things about the phantasm update weren't particularly well thought out.

 

This is absolutely wrong design philosophy. Originally, core provided of all three facets; power, condi and support. Elites were supposed to add different play style, not a different functionality. If you do different functionality then you are admitting that Elites are nothing more than a gimmick where Anet recycled then power creepred existing content. Is that the case?

 

Also, it is not uncommon (at least in PvE. PvP builds are fucking mess) that one elite provides more than one build. Example, FB and renegade. Should we nerf these too?! Chrono is not the only elite that have (or had now) damage and support PvE builds.

[Levetty.1279]

mortrialus has been complaining about Mesmer having a DPS build ever since they got one. He normally does it under the guise of 'PvP balance' but can't quite articulate why they can't do skill splits if that's the case. Glad to see he is finally admitting he just hates Mesmer.

[flog.3485]

Just wondering, after reading most of the comments, can't you play a full DPS core mesmer ?

[tim.4596]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> The initial class burp was all focused on support chrono and mirage, and then you have this here sneaky little change:

>

> "• Signet of the Ether: This skill's recharge time now begins at the same time as phantasm skills are recharged."

>

> Why? Why completely kill dps chrono without any compensatory buff? Even a nerf to Danger Time without at least reworking it so that it becomes a lot more realistic to take in pve scenarios, since slow uptime is quite limited.

>

> The dps numbers were perfectly in-line with the rest of the meta, the rotation was fun and engaging, and we are not going to get a new expansion for quite a while, so it's not like mesmer was going to get a power spec any time soon. So of course the most logical thing to do was kill power chrono. To say that I'm extremely disappointed is putting it lightly.

 

While I appreciate the fact that Anet is trying to make other support class viable, I would rather that they buff other class and stop hard nerfing Chrono. Invulnerability on distortion got removed, CC got completely destroyed, and now we can't DPS. At this point, I am only curious. What's next ?

 

I'd like to suggest that removing quickness or alacrity might be the way to go to completely kill the class. Just in case Anet was wondering what to nerf next.

 

 

[Unknown.3976]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Just wondering, after reading most of the comments, can't you play a full DPS core mesmer ?

 

Core mes has no access to Chronophantasma.

[flog.3485]

> @"Unknown.3976" said:

> > @"flog.3485" said:

> > Just wondering, after reading most of the comments, can't you play a full DPS core mesmer ?

>

> Core mes has no access to Chronophantasma.

 

Is it really a problem though with low cooldown on sword off-hand and double disenchanter with mimic ?

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> > @"Unknown.3976" said:

> > > @"flog.3485" said:

> > > Just wondering, after reading most of the comments, can't you play a full DPS core mesmer ?

> >

> > Core mes has no access to Chronophantasma.

>

> Is it really a problem though with low cooldown on sword off-hand and double disenchanter with mimic ?

 

But chrono has access to the same exact stuff, on top of Continuum Split and Chronophantasma. Continuum Split was effectively 2 Signets of the Ether and 1 Gravity Well pre-nerf, now it's one Signet less, and Chronophantasma doubles the effectiveness on all your phantasm skills.

 

That been said, base mesmer if I recall correctly benchmarked about 5k lower than chrono before this patch, now the difference should be a lot smaller since the nerf only affects chrono.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Is it really a problem though with low cooldown on sword off-hand and double disenchanter with mimic ?

I think there’s a significant difference between being able to summon up to 28 phantasms (split combo + chronophantasma) compared to 8 as part as your **burst**, which is probably one of the biggest reasons you’d play power dps. Although full dps core mes has probably the most actual dmg modifiers, the fact that phantasms have such low cd (as you have stated) means that CP will usually win because it gets to be used so much, at least for PvE.

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> now it's one Signet less

It’s not one signet less, it’s just way more complex to pull of since it requires more clones and coordination now since all components must be off CD at the same time.

[Xyonon.3987]

Dw, dps Chrono is still fine, just no longer broken. Everyone lost ~2k dps due to Banner nerfs, Chrono recieved a rather small nerf besides that - Signet of the Ether's impact was just overestimated. The current dps is still around 42k opener and 35k final number (raid realistic buffs on golem). It's absolutely fine and dandy.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> Dw, dps Chrono is still fine, just no longer broken. Everyone lost ~2k dps due to Banner nerfs, Chrono recieved a rather small nerf besides that - Signet of the Ether's impact was just overestimated. The current dps is still around 42k opener and 35k final number (raid realistic buffs on golem). It's absolutely fine and dandy.

 

Which makes this change to Danger Time even worse since it impacts WvW and PvP more than the indented target...

[zencow.3651]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> > Dw, dps Chrono is still fine, just no longer broken. Everyone lost ~2k dps due to Banner nerfs, Chrono recieved a rather small nerf besides that - Signet of the Ether's impact was just overestimated. The current dps is still around 42k opener and 35k final number (raid realistic buffs on golem). It's absolutely fine and dandy.

>

> Which makes this change to Danger Time even worse since it impacts WvW and PvP more than the indented target...

 

Pretty sure it was aimed more at WvW/PvP where the lost time + danger time was too powerful.