Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > Desperate Decoy just gives stealth and a clone, stealth that often gets cancelled immediately. Aside from evasive mirror you need to reevaluate your definition of passive. Desperate decoy and Defy pain aren't all that different in functionality and neither should really exist. Nearly every similar passive has been nerfed or removed outright besides Desperate decoy across all classes. > @"Solori.6025" said: > I was just about to comment this exact thing. Apparently using a skill or doing an action to cause an effect is now a passive. > Spvp community 2k19 I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives _per se._ But there are ways to get chaos armor without actually applying it yourself which will still grant the protection; which, if you do nothing to activate the effect, that's how i'd arrive at calling it a passive. I refuse to call Infinite Horizon an active style of play personally when you all you have to do is grant yourself mirage cloak to get the effect. It's not much different from ranger's protection on dodge, or warrior's 3k damage dodge rolls. I'm not that technical. As to Soften the Fall; I was just calling it annoying. Trying to help explain why this is about Soulbeast, not Warrior. Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > Did we forget Warrior has a free balance stance and a free Endure Pain on passive? Who said that Warrior is less cancerous? They are the MAIN culprits to passive garbage like those traits mentioned above. > > > > > > > > Both Soulbeast and certain Warrior traits are cancer. > > > > > > I always find it funny that people find a way to complain about those two warrior passives, especially on threads that have nothing to do with warrior. > > > > > > While I agree that NO passive-trait play should exist in the game, the truth is most Spellbreakers take strength over defense now, and even the ones that play defense know how bad those passives are. > > > > > > Defy pain is a 90s internal cooldown for a glorified stunbreak that; more often than not, doesn't even get used as a stunbreak, and doesn't do anything against conditions. It only lasts 2 seconds because unlike many other passives in the game; it actually got multiple nerfs. That's 88 seconds of downtime(or 87.5 with Last Stand.) > > > Last stand, also 90 second cooldown; is a little bit more useful as it usually triggers in situations where it's actually useful, but it still has counterplay options like condition and corrupting the stability into fear. The incredibly long internal cooldown should also be considered, as it's still over 80 seconds of downtime. Most defense warriors are still going to take Rousing Resilience over this anyway. > > > > > > If you want the true culprit to passive garbage, look no further than mirage. > > > Desperate decoy has never been touched despite having an effect similar to Defy Pain at half the internal cooldown. > > > Evasive mirror gives them an infinite amount of reflects, also not tuned. > > > Infinite Horizon, chaotic dampening, illusionary membrane. All strong passives that don't get touched. > > > > > > I get Boonbeast isn't much different, what with their passives giving them insane weakness/protection uptime that stacks with their stances, and that annoying muddy terrain they drop every 25 seconds, but that's why people are here complaining about that and not warrior. > > > > > Desperate Decoy just gives stealth and a clone, stealth that often gets cancelled immediately. Aside from evasive mirror you need to reevaluate your definition of passive. > > I was just about to comment this exact thing. Apparently using a skill or doing an action to cause an effect is now a passive. > Spvp community 2k19 I've never liked desperate decoy. Honestly my biggest experience with it is it just interrupting my safe stomps. I and I just don't notice when it pops in a fight. I would 10,000% love to see it changed into something more tangibly useful and less passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Desperate Decoy just gives stealth and a clone, stealth that often gets cancelled immediately. Aside from evasive mirror you need to reevaluate your definition of passive. > > Desperate decoy and Defy pain aren't all that different in functionality and neither should really exist. Nearly every similar passive has been nerfed or removed outright besides Desperate decoy across all classes. > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > I was just about to comment this exact thing. Apparently using a skill or doing an action to cause an effect is now a passive. > > Spvp community 2k19 > > I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives _per se._ But there are ways to get chaos armor without actually applying it yourself which will still grant the protection; which, if you do nothing to activate the effect, that's how i'd arrive at calling it a passive. > I refuse to call Infinite Horizon an active style of play personally when you all you have to do is grant yourself mirage cloak to get the effect. It's not much different from ranger's protection on dodge, or warrior's 3k damage dodge rolls. I'm not that technical. > As to Soften the Fall; I was just calling it annoying. Trying to help explain why this is about Soulbeast, not Warrior. > > Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. Desperate Decoy literally interrupts your actions and does not provide immunity to power damage. The stealth will 9/10 times get cancelled almost immediately. Yes the ways you get chaos armor without you doing it completely alone are through combos. Which almost always requires you to perform an action unless someone else blasts an ethereal field which almost all of are available to only Mesmer, so chances are the Mesmer put down the field and someone else blasted it, which is not passive. Ah yes Infinite Horizon is so passive all you have to do is actively dodge or use one of your utility skills. I forgot how passive it was to do either of those. I personally think it's so passive when I use Blink to break a stun. This isn't to say I approve of passive gameplay but your comparisons and references are absurd. And for Illusionary Membrane my counterpoint is, are you now going to rail against every trait that provides a boon when a condition is met? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Desperate Decoy just gives stealth and a clone, stealth that often gets cancelled immediately. Aside from evasive mirror you need to reevaluate your definition of passive. > > Desperate decoy and Defy pain aren't all that different in functionality and neither should really exist. Nearly every similar passive has been nerfed or removed outright besides Desperate decoy across all classes. > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > I was just about to comment this exact thing. Apparently using a skill or doing an action to cause an effect is now a passive. > > Spvp community 2k19 > > I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives _per se._ But there are ways to get chaos armor without actually applying it yourself which will still grant the protection; which, if you do nothing to activate the effect, that's how i'd arrive at calling it a passive. > I refuse to call Infinite Horizon an active style of play personally when you all you have to do is grant yourself mirage cloak to get the effect. It's not much different from ranger's protection on dodge, or warrior's 3k damage dodge rolls. I'm not that technical. > As to Soften the Fall; I was just calling it annoying. Trying to help explain why this is about Soulbeast, not Warrior. > > Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. Whether you refuse to call something active or not is irrelevant ,as the nature of skills that gain an effect from activating them is active in every sense of the word. Infinite horizen, warrior dodge for damage, ranger dodge for prot, engi vent heat, even ele's dodge trait. Is all active. Calling it passive is just stupid, sorry if that is harsh, but its the truth. Calling something that requires active skill usage (be it a dodge, an attack, or utility) a passive is stupid. No one should have to convince anyone of that, because it should be common sense. Edit: And on the note of desperate decoy. I really hope anet changes the trait to be something useful, passive stealth gain that usually ends up getting you killed can die in a fire. It's literally my least favorite trait and I would REJOICE when it is replaced with ANYTHING other than what it is currently. IF you want to make a thread about how OP you think Desperate Decoy is I would be all for supporting you in the hopes that it gets entirely redesigned to be something worth even looking at as a trait choice. Edit2: As not ot further derail this thread. B O O N B E A S T! discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > Desperate Decoy literally interrupts your actions and does not provide immunity to power damage. The stealth will 9/10 times get cancelled almost immediately. > Yes the ways you get chaos armor without you doing it completely alone are through combos. Which almost always requires you to perform an action unless someone else blasts an ethereal field which almost all of are available to only Mesmer, so chances are the Mesmer put down the field and someone else blasted it, which is not passive. Ah yes Infinite Horizon is so passive all you have to do is actively dodge or use one of your utility skills. I forgot how passive it was to do either of those. I personally think it's so passive when I use Blink to break a stun. > > This isn't to say I approve of passive gameplay but your comparisons and references are absurd. And for Illusionary Membrane my counterpoint is, are you now going to rail against every trait that provides a boon when a condition is met? I have nothing further to say on Desperate Decoy really. Like I said before, passive like that AND Defy Pain shouldn't exist. Period. I could really care less about the effectiveness of either skills. It's all the more reason to add entirely new traits over these rather than give them ludicrously long cooldowns and call it fixed. I'm not railing on any passives that proc multiple boons on thresholds. I was just telling the person who I was replying to that other classes have far more than Warrior's two. One of which being Boonbeast; which they mentioned nothing of, on a thread about Boonbeast mind you. Personally I think the extra protection and AOE weakness that procs just on taking damage is a far more annoying and easy to trigger passive than _just about _anything mesmer and mirage have despite all their passive play. But in the end, what do I know? I'm stupid because I don't consider Infinite Horizon a very "active" trait. hehe xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Desperate Decoy literally interrupts your actions and does not provide immunity to power damage. The stealth will 9/10 times get cancelled almost immediately. > > Yes the ways you get chaos armor without you doing it completely alone are through combos. Which almost always requires you to perform an action unless someone else blasts an ethereal field which almost all of are available to only Mesmer, so chances are the Mesmer put down the field and someone else blasted it, which is not passive. Ah yes Infinite Horizon is so passive all you have to do is actively dodge or use one of your utility skills. I forgot how passive it was to do either of those. I personally think it's so passive when I use Blink to break a stun. > > > > This isn't to say I approve of passive gameplay but your comparisons and references are absurd. And for Illusionary Membrane my counterpoint is, are you now going to rail against every trait that provides a boon when a condition is met? > > I have nothing further to say on Desperate Decoy really. Like I said before, passive like that AND Defy Pain shouldn't exist. Period. I could really care less about the effectiveness of either skills. It's all the more reason to add entirely new traits over these rather than give them ludicrously long cooldowns and call it fixed. > > I'm not railing on any passives that proc multiple boons on thresholds. I was just telling the person who I was replying to that other classes have far more than Warrior's two. One of which being Boonbeast; which they mentioned nothing of, on a thread about Boonbeast mind you. Personally I think the extra protection and AOE weakness that procs just on taking damage is a far more annoying and easy to trigger passive than _just about _anything mesmer and mirage have despite all their passive play. > > But in the end, what do I know? I'm stupid because I don't consider Infinite Horizon a very "active" trait. hehe xd I laughed when you compared Defy Pain and Desperate Decoy and tried to insinuate that the latter is somehow better. This trait basically says "get revealed and intrrupt stomps/healing skills on a 60 second cooldown!" it is absolute trash. You say >I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives per se. Then you go on to say >Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. But this makes little sense, because as far as I can see, the only other thing you mention is Illusionary Membrane. And no, I won't change your mind, that is essentially impossible, because you already made it up before engaging in discussion. Just because Warrior is a simplistic/basic, doesn't mean it is difficult. Warrior is just as cancer as the other professions. The fact alone that Warrior is the most overstatted profession with top HP pool plus heavy armor makes this true, let alone any of the other shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > I laughed when you compared Defy Pain and Desperate Decoy and tried to insinuate that the latter is somehow better. This trait basically says "get revealed and intrrupt stomps/healing skills on a 60 second cooldown!" it is absolute trash. > Actually I said they're both trash because they both belong to a style of play that revolves around doing absolutely nothing for them to work. Unless you consider me stating that Desperate Decoy hasn't been nerfed and has a shorter CD unlike every other similar stunbreak threshold passive in the game, or those that have been replaced, as me relenting that it's better than the rest. It wasn't meant to imply that it's stronger, it's just the truth. > You say > >I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives per se. > Then you go on to say > >Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. > But this makes little sense, because as far as I can see, the only other thing you mention is Illusionary Membrane. > > And no, I won't change your mind, that is essentially impossible, because you already made it up before engaging in discussion. > > Just because Warrior is a simplistic/basic, doesn't mean it is difficult. Warrior is just as cancer as the other professions. The fact alone that Warrior is the most overstatted profession with top HP pool plus heavy armor makes this true, let alone any of the other kitten. Already gave my thoughts on all three of those skills I mentioned because; like I say, they AREN'T passives _per se._ And to be fair I just called Soften the Fall annoying, because; this is a thread about **Boonbeast** or Soulbeast at the very least, and personally I don't consider the changes enough to make it any less annoying. Not so long as it still pulses slow on top of everything else. Illusionary Membrane is a passive boon proc that can be triggered by health threshold, but really; that's just one example. Evasive Mirrors on Mesmer and Protective Ward on Ranger are much worse examples. They might function differently to Defy Pain and Desperate decoy, but they're still passives. That was the only thing predecided before this conversation began, because that's fact. If you have anything you'd like to add, you're more than welcome to share as that's what the forums are for, and I promise that i'll listen. I'd only recommend that if you have a criticism for another class like Warrior, you bring it to an appropriate thread or make your own. This thread's been derailed enough at just one irrelevant mentioning of two traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Changing the definition of a word to fit a narrative? Shocking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > I laughed when you compared Defy Pain and Desperate Decoy and tried to insinuate that the latter is somehow better. This trait basically says "get revealed and intrrupt stomps/healing skills on a 60 second cooldown!" it is absolute trash. > > > > Actually I said they're both trash because they both belong to a style of play that revolves around doing absolutely nothing for them to work. Unless you consider me stating that Desperate Decoy hasn't been nerfed and has a shorter CD unlike every other similar stunbreak threshold passive in the game, or those that have been replaced, as me relenting that it's better than the rest. It wasn't meant to imply that it's stronger, it's just the truth. The reason it hasn't been nerfed unlike some of the others is because it is vastly weaker, and this cannot just be conveniently ignored. And this should be obvious. > > > You say > > >I suppose Infinite Horizon, Chaotic Dampening, and Soften the Fall aren't passives per se. > > Then you go on to say > > >Beyond that, everything I mentioned or reference is a passive in the most literal sense. Change my mind. > > But this makes little sense, because as far as I can see, the only other thing you mention is Illusionary Membrane. > > > > And no, I won't change your mind, that is essentially impossible, because you already made it up before engaging in discussion. > > > > Just because Warrior is a simplistic/basic, doesn't mean it is difficult. Warrior is just as cancer as the other professions. The fact alone that Warrior is the most overstatted profession with top HP pool plus heavy armor makes this true, let alone any of the other kitten. > > Already gave my thoughts on all three of those skills I mentioned because; like I say, they AREN'T passives _per se._ And to be fair I just called Soften the Fall annoying, because; this is a thread about **Boonbeast** or Soulbeast at the very least, and personally I don't consider the changes enough to make it any less annoying. Not so long as it still pulses slow on top of everything else. As I said, saying "beyond that, everything I mentioned ... is a passive" is a strange statement considering the **only other thing you mentioned** is Illusionary Membrane (when talking about Mirage). So what you mean to say we should "change your mind" on the fact that Illusionary Membrane is a passive, which it obviously is. It is just disingenuous to say "If you want the true culprit to passive garbage, look no further than mirage" **1.** as if Mesmer/Mirage is the end-all-be-all of passive gameplay and **2.** as if passives are what makes Mirage strong (it is clearly not). > > Illusionary Membrane is a passive boon proc that can be triggered by health threshold, but really; that's just one example. Evasive Mirrors on Mesmer and Protective Ward on Ranger are much worse examples. They might function differently to Defy Pain and Desperate decoy, but they're still passives. That was the only thing predecided before this conversation began, because that's fact. If you have anything you'd like to add, you're more than welcome to share as that's what the forums are for, and I promise that i'll listen. I'd only recommend that if you have a criticism for another class like Warrior, you bring it to an appropriate thread or make your own. This thread's been derailed enough at just one irrelevant mentioning of two traits. "I'd only recommend that if you have a criticism for another class like Warrior, you bring it to an appropriate thread or make your own. This thread's been derailed enough at just one irrelevant mentioning of two traits." Hilarious, as you went on a rant defending War/attacking Mes. Of course **you** can do it, but I shouldn't respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > It is just disingenuous to say "If you want the true culprit to passive garbage, look no further than mirage" **1.** as if Mesmer/Mirage is the end-all-be-all of passive gameplay and **2.** as if passives are what makes Mirage strong (it is clearly not). > "I'd only recommend that if you have a criticism for another class like Warrior, you bring it to an appropriate thread or make your own. This thread's been derailed enough at just one irrelevant mentioning of two traits." > Hilarious, as you went on a rant defending War/attacking Mes. Of course **you** can do it, but I shouldn't respond. I think you're missing context here. "Passive garbage" was just me quoting the person who started derailing this conversation in the first place. It's the words they used to describe Warrior, and it doesn't reflect how I actually feel about mesmer/mirage. If you scroll up, you can see that I even mention that was probably their intent to begin with as it has little to do with Boonbeast and Soulbeast. Nobody is saying you can't respond. I thought i'd of encouraged the exact opposite by saying that's what the forums are for. Oops, sorry. As I said; it's just a recommendation, as this thread has turned from a discussion about Boonbeast, to a discussion about Warrior/Mirage. I'll admit i'm just as guilty there, and i'm a big hypocrite, but I have made some attempt to stay on topic. All 3 classes have passives in the truest sense. Some more than others, in the truest sense. The person who started this highlighted Defense Warrior's 2 passive procs. Even if you don't count Chaotic Dampening and Infinite Horizon. Even ignoring that Defense Spellbreaker has fell out of play to some extent, Rousing Resilience is meta, and that the stronger Tetherbreaker has 0 passive trait procs. Condition Sage Mirage still has more instrumental passives with: **Illusionary Membrane, Evasive Mirror, and Deceptive Decoy.** If someone is going to start ranting about Warrior passives in a discussion on Boonbeast, then I think it's fair to use Mesmer as example too, and that's really all i'm doing. I think passive proc'd traits are lazy regardless of class. That's why I say Defy Pain, Protective Ward, and Last Stand shouldn't exist either. All terrible boring traits. It's not an attack on Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Apparently, designers prefer soulbeast.soulbeast need to reduce one pet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lociaz.4027 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 > @"Safandula.8723" said: > yep, no nerfs to holo and boonbeast are kinda weird Im with ya 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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