[Feedback] Shadowstrike Changes 3-5-19

[Turk.5460]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > DrD vs. DE?

>

> He was talking about malice so I assume we are both on DE.

 

Oh, I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. How does the change feel on DrD vs. on DE. I couldn't get in to try yesterday.

[saerni.2584]

I haven’t tried the DrD version. A few people were running it but other than a few people doing random stuff I didn’t see anyone sticking with it too much.

 

I did fight more P/D thieves than I have in a while though. :D

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> The questions for feedback:

> 1. Does the implemented flip skill provide additional lethality to P/D?

 

No - For a single target condition build, this is clunkier than the previous iteration since it slows the application of Torment in exchange to stacks of Bleed. For the same cost of 4 init, I could stack Torment multiple times which is more potent than Bleed when target is moving.

 

The new iteration now allows for changing targets. I can Shadow Strike target #1, Repeater to target #2. However, the cost of 4 init for Repeater is not worth it. For the same cost, I can stack Torments from the previous iteration.

 

Yes - For a power build, which is really odd for a P/D, this provides additional damage output.

 

Conclusion - From a condition build stand point, this is a huge nerf since Repeater is such a bad skill. However, from a hybrid stand point, this is actually a good buff.

 

> 2. Does the implemented flip skill do enough overall damage?

 

Physically, yes.

Condition, no.

Torment is more lethal for the same cost of 4 init.

SS->dodge fwd->SS->dodge fwd->SS->Steal->SS is now a thing of the past. This combo deals more overall damage than the current iteration since it can be applied in a short amount of time. Repeater slows everything down by a lot.

 

> 3. Does the implemented flip skill do enough power damage?

 

No. A single shot from the old Shadow Strike deals more damage.

Yes. Shooting 5 bullets mean there are 5 chances to get a crit hit.

 

> 4. Does the implemented flip skill do enough and/or the right kind of condition effects?

 

The attack speed of Repeater should be as fast as Sneak Attack. At it's current iteration, half of the Repeater's bleed stacks can be dodged.

 

> 3. Does the implemented flip skill do its damage quickly enough?

 

No. A lackluster performance worst than Sneak Attack.

 

> 4. Does the implemented flip skill cost an appropriate amount of initiative?

 

No. It should cost 2 init OR make the bleed stacks double if all shots hit the same target.

 

> 5. Does the implemented flip skill remain active/available for an appropriate length of time after landing a Shadowstrike?

 

It remains active for 4 seconds even after use. It's bad for my condition build, but as a hybrid, it's good.

 

My overall take on this is; If Arenanet is aiming to make P/D a hybrid, then they have accomplished that goal. But if they intend to keep this as a condition build, then they've just killed it. I deal more damage using P/D with power gear, which is really sad.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> @"dDuff.3860" Repeater **now **costs 4 initiative and **takes 1.25 seconds to channel**.

 

This is a huge change that makes the skill actually justifiable. At 1.75s it'd be hot garbage.

Shaving half a second from the cast makes the skill go from being comparable to AAs to a fair degree better.

 

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"dDuff.3860" Repeater **now **costs 4 initiative and **takes 1.25 seconds to channel**.

>

> This is a huge change that makes the skill actually justifiable. At 1.75s it'd be hot garbage.

> Shaving half a second from the cast makes the skill go from being comparable to AAs to a fair degree better.

>

 

Still too slow. They should just make it flat 1s casting time.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Lots of talk here from a PvP perspective, but I'm kinda curious if this makes any difference in raw DPS for a P/D build vs a D/D condi build in PvE. Away from game for a while or else I'd test myself.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Lots of talk here from a PvP perspective, but I'm kinda curious if this makes any difference in raw DPS for a P/D build vs a D/D condi build in PvE. Away from game for a while or else I'd test myself.

 

The new D/P Shadow Strike cannot compete with D/D's Death Blossom. D/D can stack bleed faster than D/P and it cost cheaper too. Not to mention, DB is AoE.

[Turk.5460]

P/D DE works pretty well in WvW 1v1. However, 1v1 encounters as a Thief have dropped off almost completely in the two days since Warclaw was introduced. P/D DE isn't very effective in a group setting, even if it's as small as 3v3, and it certainly does not outshine other Thief builds in outnumbered encounters.

[babazhook.6805]

I really do not forsee getting enough feedbackon this in WvW for the next little while. The place is out of whack with all the newcomers and warclaw stuff. It next to impossible to get the 1v1 's in and group fights just have too many new to the game on either side.

[babazhook.6805]

I had a bit more time to play with this so some thoughts and suggestions as it pertains to WvW.

 

Firstly , I like the idea of a cascade type skill to enhance the dual wield of given weapon sets. It adds a few more choices to the build from a tactical point of view while at the same time ensuring we do not end up in a situation where the p/d thief just spams one skill as in the p/p build because that skill just does so much more then any other in the set.

 

At the same time it my feeling there just not enough oomph to the skill. It close but needs a wee bit more. While some have suggested a lowering of channel time coupled with lower INI cost , I favor a bit more bite in the skill itself. That added bite should come with some downside be it soon running out of ini if relied on too much or the ability for an enemy to react and counter. At the same time there has to still be situations were using a p/d #4 , #5 or P/d #2 preferable.

 

I really favor the idea of reward for being able to complete the entire 5 shot channel of the 1.25 second repeater shot. This should be over and above the 5 bleeds with damage that currently exists.

 

In form repeater would be very much like the mother skill of shadowstike and diivded into two parts. In shadowstrike if the initial attack not blocked etc it cascades into that port away with added pistol shot. What I would suggest for Repeater is a 6th bullet. It only fired IF the first 5 hit. That 6th bullet will apply a diiferent effect if it hits and some suggestions include....

 

A Return of Cursed Bullet. This tracks the opponent for a damage component on hit and converts two boons into conditions.

 

A 1/4 second stun. This adding a stun to the set so as to use on PI builds, Pressure strike builds or just as an added defensive measure.

 

5 More bleeds. If the first 5 shots hit for bleeds the 6th hits for an added 5.

 

Do added damage and garner a boon. As example the sixth shot might have a damage component 20 percent higher then each single existing shot of the repeater skill and add 2 seconds quickness.

 

I do NOT want to see the skill get to the point were it the only one we end up using. It my feeling that the danger of this skill with my suggestions would not become OP just as long as the INI cost not too low and enemies have the time of avoiding at least part of the shots so as to try and ensure the sixth bullet does not fire. I do think the payoff for the sixth bullet should be substantial enough to make it worthwhile.

[saerni.2584]

I agree the skill could just have more damage and the cost or channel time would be fine.

 

What I’ve also been noticing is you can more easily use a combo of Shadowstrike, Dancing Dagger and Repeater to stack malice currently. Having a skill that isn’t as easy to completely avoid as Dancing Dagger is a big help to consistent pressure and building up malice.

 

I’ve also been weighing what the “best form” of the flip skill is. I think, after much consideration, that four seconds duration is fine as long as it can only be used once. Or, stow weapon should cancel the Repeater skill “boon.”

 

First, it is easier to justify the skill doing good damage if it can’t be spammed. I want it to do more damage so this is an easy trade off imo. Second, four seconds does let you use Repeater or hold it back if the enemy uses a block or evade skill. Third, this kind of change makes it possible to stow weapons and recast Shadowstrike in an emergency.

 

If damage and flexibility are improved I think it would make the set much better, especially for newbies picking it up for the first time.