Serious Question to Anet

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Gatvin.6510" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > Engi main here.

> > >

> > > I'm going to have to agree with @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" 's points. When thief is OP, it is just flat out oppressive and shuts a lot of classes out of the game. It is the highest mobility class in the game with the greatest access to stealth, and a good burst to boot. Well-played deadeyes are basically unkillable due to the sheer amount of stealth they can access.

> > >

> > > So it's only fair that in 1v1s, they generally are pretty low on the totem pole, because in +1 engagements they are incredibly powerful, and they are able to heckle the enemy team through clever decap/capping. In the time it takes for me to reach home from spawn on engineer, a thief can cross most of the map and decap points along the way.

> > >

> > > Know what I fear most when I'm playing prot holo? Getting +1'ed by a deadeye or thief that knows what they're doing. They're able to screw with me in +1's in ways most other classes can't.

> >

> > My experience IS very different than yours. I main Elementalist, and I generally don't run anti-projectile skills outside a WvW zerg. I can safely say I've never been afraid of getting +1'd by a deadeye. If I'm already in one-shot range, I'll be more ready to hit defensive/healing cooldowns, but that's just a precaution against ANY +1. I usually kill the deadeye, then either kill, or go back to 1v1ing their buddy, and then be thankful their team didn't send a real build to back them up. Stealth doesn't help cap points, or block damage if my blind attacks hit. Same deal on my Dragon Hunter. Admittedly, my experience fighting holos is that they are very on/off in terms of its power(offensive or defensive), so its more vulnerable to well timed attacks, but any class could do that with the right stats, not just a deadeye. Its actually a very important part of how I kill holos at all.

> >

> > My experience playing Thief of most kinds, but ESPECIALLY rifle deadeye, is that if you attack at the wrong time, you do nothing and die. Its a far cry from Elementalist which usually involves maintaining a persistent area of damage and/or healing around yourself and MOSTLY avoiding the big attacks. This can MOSTLY be achieved by making sure everything but your emergency cooldowns are on cooldown, then switching elements, and then you'll MOSTLY be fine. There is no 'mostly' in thief. If one wishes to spend time playing a thief without gouging one's eyes out, you eventually learn not to attack unless you're going to actually do damage, and be as far away as possible as soon as someone notices you, because even the small attacks will kill you. Its at this point you realize that what you bring to your team is NOT high damage or mobility, but knowing what timing and positioning are. Then you realize that you can do the exact same thing, without stealth or extra mobility, on another class and ALSO be able to 1v1. Then you go back to whatever you played before. You might occasionally play deadeye still for the sake of judging how good you are at supporting your team, pressing weaknesses in your opponent's play, and seeing if the meta has shifted so you can actually play the build as much as you like the theme of the build. On the last point, you will be disappointed repeatedly. Don't play thief. That way lies only pain.

> >

> > I mean, play thief, you'll be better once you figure it out, but there will also be pain.

>

> I've played thief, not deadeye specifically though. In +1's, they're pretty deadly, especially if they know the enemy's weak points. Elementalist is a slightly different beast to fight than engineer because elementalist is constantly rotating through skills -- if you aren't moving or doing something on an ele, you're generally getting dead. However, when I'm on a prot holo, I generally can't disengage my first target and swap to the deadeye or thief quite as easily. This gives them time to set up and wait for the right opportunity to strike, which is why I dread them -- because I have to save my cooldowns for the thief specifically, when I'm already having to use them for my 1v1. Other classes have to wade right in to start dealing damage, but thief can set up a lot of its damage beforehand.

 

I remember seeing this in a guide for neverwinter nights, but the rogue archetype is comparable to landing a plane, 90% of it is the set up. I get what you're saying, but in that respect DE is doing exactly what it's supposed to do by setting up a large spike but being way less dangerous than other classes the rest of the time.

[bluri.2653]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such.

> > > >

> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it?

> > > >

> > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside.

> > > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant.

> > > >

> > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation.

> > >

> > > Do realize that most people still playing this game are running purely on power-fantasy, most of these people playing abusable cheese with no regard for the interactions and skill in the PvP modes; those players generally all quit with the blatant powercreep with the expansions. It's the same in every subsection. People insisting Mirage Cloak was fine, that ranger needs more buffs, and so on. Most posts are frankly total BS.

> > >

> > > Like the person complaining above how thief has only been nerfed yet neglects tons of CDR across several utilities, sword AA being buffed by 40%, Unload being buffed by almost 35%, and several skills facing initiative cost changes and other minor buffs. Did people forget that Dagger AA out-damaged everything the thief otherwise had, making casting skills pointless when trying to opt for kill pressure, thanks to nearly a 30% buff previously?

> > >

> > > When people complain about the thief being weak... it's going to be so long as cheesy, un-fun builds like SA Deadeye exist. Otherwise, the onus is on the other professions being downright braindead and uncounterable. It's supposed to be a class with a high skill ceiling, and anyone making the claim most of the OP's today, and builds like DA DE required a lot of skill to pull off are deluding themselves.

> >

> > Patch Note history,

> > Sword:

> > * Jan 26, 2016 Sword Auto attack has the attack point of the skill increased by .16 seconds. I guess this means the time when it registeres hits has been pushed back. Not significant

> > * Mar 27 2018 Reduced Damage overall by 14%, this means the whole auto chain. No details on what per attack hit was. Judging by Dagger's auto chain it's likely massive hits for the first two blows.

> > Summery, Information is not correct according to actual sources.

> >

> > They hurt skill 2 to prevent the thief from popping in and out too quickly. Removed the stun break on Shadow Return and gave it a delay. The skill also had infinite range for some reason, which we all agree was kitten.

> > They increased the damage to 3 and made it unblockable. But the damage is only increased if the target does not have boons. Good luck.

> >

> > So... that three.... Which is where the big kitten damage is supposed to be.

> > Flanking Strike:

> > * Oct 2012 First Strike is Unblockable.

> > * April 2013 Now Evade and delivers one strike. Reduced ini cost from 4 to 3. Now toggles for 5 seconds to second skill. Improved reliability of flanking strike (one of the few rare bug fixes thieves get that benefits them.) (removed unblockable by the way)

> > * Aug 2013 Removed a redundant damage fact.....?

> > * April 2014 updated skill facts to show bonus damage from combined training (no longer exists).

> > * Sep 2014 Skill must now succuesfully hit target to switch to second skill. Increased in cost back to 4 again.

> > * Jun 2015 Dual wield skill buff stuff. No longer get benefits from movement speed.

> > * Aug 2017 Now unblockable again.

> >

> > I don't feel like listing the history of the second skill. In short...

> > It got the cost adjusted from 1ini to 2 ini. Then back down to 1 again.

> > Two years after introduction it now steals two instead of 1 boon.

> > And the cost went back up to 2 ini again.

> > And then it got a damage bonus of 20% only if the target doesn't have any boons in 2017... which is long after the fact that most classes can generate boons like crazy. So the damage spike is rarely seen.

> >

> > Long story short... Total skill cost is 6.

> >

> > Unload:

> > * Sep 2014 Increased speed of the skill by 20.

> > * Jun 2015 Specialization update *ALL SKILLS CATEGORIZED AS DUAL WIELD* damage increase by 5%

> > * sep 2015 Increased damage increased per shot by 26%

> > * April 106 Skill now grants 1 might for 8 seconds for striking an enemy.

> > * May 2016 Skill now refunds 2 ini if ALL ATTACKS HITS

> > * Jul 2018 July, Initiative cost between game modes split. PvP and WvW costs 6 ini and refunds only 1 if all attacks hits. PvE cost is 5 but refunds 2 if all attacks hit.

> > Summary: Unload did get buffed, so you're not wrong. However, no one is using it, and I guess Guess anet doesn't understand why. The initiative cost is high, the refund only counts if all attacks deal damage (Which they never do in pvp). And in a pool of 12 (15 with Trickery) you're only casting this twice before being unable to do anything else. What made the skill dependable in PvP was Ricochet. The skill only had one self synergy and that was with black powder... which the combo all together cost 11 out of your 12 initiative. But with ricochet, you had a decent chance of the bullet bouncing off to other targets and applying combo field effects.

> >

> > Initiative Mitigation, most of it you need to trait for.

> > 1 every 10 seconds from Infiltrators signet. **IF** a thief carries it, its not for the passive.

> > Upper hand in Acrobatics. 1 ini for a single evade every 5 seconds.

> > Trickery Trait: Kleptomaniac: Stealing restores 2 ini.

> > Trickery Trait Preparedness: Changes ini pool from 12 to 15.

> > Trickery Trait Quick Pockets: restores only 3 ini for swapping weapons.

> > Shadow Arts Trait Shadow's Rejuvination: 1 initiative for every 3 seconds in stealth...

> >

> > So... as you can see... cost is kinda important to a thief. And it usually decides what we do and what we don't use. Also the play style. And with the poor reward you get for actually fighting... you can see why thieves go for certain traits. We can only use two or three skills at most before running out. Which is why the Auto attack damage was a huge concern.

>

> And many other skills, like Body Shot, were also buffed.

>

> Initiative costs are okay to be fair high if the skills are high-impact.

>

> Which they used to be, and against anything but the FoTM/optimal builds, they still very much are.

>

> The thief's plight is the powercreep on other professions; they do too much today and can't be quickly dispatched and/or outplayed like is supposed to happen on thief as a whole. Comparable builds are cheese because that's what it takes.

>

> I'm really sick and tired of explaining why answering the power of other professions with more power on the thief is bad. The thief's very fundamental design prohibits it alongside most of the other non-optimal builds in the game being overly-punished as a consequence. I'm not saying bad builds, either - just non-optimal.

>

> Like, you can buff the thief to hell and back and it won't mean anything in the context of the potency of existing bunkers - particularly due to their ease of play - unless you make thief numerically busted such that they at higher skill echelons become better than anything else in the game by a wide margin, which ultimately benefits nobody in the end.

>

> It comes down to the other professions. They *have* to be nerfed.

 

100% agree, I feel like I say everytime "I think thief has never been this strong ever DRD/Core" has nothing to do with it being weak right now it's just everything else is buffed to hell and the right answer is not to buff thief to meet them.

 

But ANET just keeps going the other direction so we are stuck in an endless loop. (See scrapper before the tonedown again)

 

Only things I can agree with is QoL fixes for thief

[saerni.2584]

I was told recently DE is OP because it can permastealth.

 

When I pointed out the recent nerf reduced the easy no-skill permastealth ability of DE i was told it didn’t matter, even the ability to expend significant resources (while doing no damage) is OP.

 

Then he blocked me because I guess he didn’t like being challenged on his ability to think (I didn’t insult him and he was the one who first messaged me).

 

Honestly, I think most players are like that guy. It doesn’t matter if thief can generally only +1 because other classes are better at 1v1. It doesn’t matter that any other competent DPS build can pull off a +1. Stealth is something that other players refuse to acknowledge doesn’t stop them and 90% of other classes from having a more than fair chance of killing the thief or forcing them to run away. Sure the thief got away. But to be fair running away isn’t a great pvp tactic, because the thief wasted time and cooldowns in the process.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I was told recently DE is OP because it can permastealth.

>

> When I pointed out the recent nerf reduced the easy no-skill permastealth ability of DE i was told it didn’t matter, even the ability to expend significant resources (while doing no damage) is OP.

>

> Then he blocked me because I guess he didn’t like being challenged on his ability to think (I didn’t insult him and he was the one who first messaged me).

>

> Honestly, I think most players are like that guy. It doesn’t matter if thief can generally only +1 because other classes are better at 1v1. It doesn’t matter that any other competent DPS build can pull off a +1. Stealth is something that other players refuse to acknowledge doesn’t stop them and 90% of other classes from having a more than fair chance of killing the thief or forcing them to run away. Sure the thief got away. But to be fair running away isn’t a great pvp tactic, because the thief wasted time and cooldowns in the process.

 

It's been the same argument for years tbh, so honestly this doesn't surprise me at all.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Its It's strange with all these advantages thief has it's literally considered widely as a +1 class due to its poor capabilities to fight an opponent toe to toe without resorting to stealth one shot attempts through MBS etc, again resulting in salt. Maybe if all the non thief players refrained from complaining every time they got killed by a thief maybe they wouldn't have been repeatedly nerfed until either several resets or cheap one shot attempts would be needed to down an opponent. This also limits the viable builds/weapons thief can use to be effective. Having a class that's used solely for its mobility to decap and having to attack already engaged opponents to down them without being at a disadvantage is not balanced no matter the class mechanics nor is it fun for the player or the opponent. Mobility isn't the advantage for thief these days given the mobility of other classes now nor is stealth,even scrapper has easier access to long duration stealth on a low cooldown.thief has a few decent burst but its general dps needs increased to fall in line with today's version of the game or the dps/sustain needs to be shaved down on classes across the board which is unlikely.

 

I love that the 1 shot isn't even all that strong. It's like 6k backstab. All that set up for just 1 measely 6k. A sic em ranger instagibs most things. Like 25k worth of dps, so does rev, power Chrono. Then we have 6k backstab that requires a combo to stealth, to hit within a few seconds and steal on the right time from behind. Lol. Fuck that. I basically quit hief n played something else. It's just stuipd. Life in gw2 is just wait better when not thief.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Its It's strange with all these advantages thief has it's literally considered widely as a +1 class due to its poor capabilities to fight an opponent toe to toe without resorting to stealth one shot attempts through MBS etc, again resulting in salt. Maybe if all the non thief players refrained from complaining every time they got killed by a thief maybe they wouldn't have been repeatedly nerfed until either several resets or cheap one shot attempts would be needed to down an opponent. This also limits the viable builds/weapons thief can use to be effective. Having a class that's used solely for its mobility to decap and having to attack already engaged opponents to down them without being at a disadvantage is not balanced no matter the class mechanics nor is it fun for the player or the opponent. Mobility isn't the advantage for thief these days given the mobility of other classes now nor is stealth,even scrapper has easier access to long duration stealth on a low cooldown.thief has a few decent burst but its general dps needs increased to fall in line with today's version of the game or the dps/sustain needs to be shaved down on classes across the board which is unlikely.

>

> I love that the 1 shot isn't even all that strong. It's like 6k backstab. All that set up for just 1 measely 6k. A sic em ranger instagibs most things. Like 25k worth of dps, so does rev, power Chrono. Then we have 6k backstab that requires a combo to stealth, to hit within a few seconds and steal on the right time from behind. Lol. kitten that. I basically quit hief n played something else. It's just stuipd. Life in gw2 is just wait better when not thief.

 

Yeah I left thief to after almost 3 yrs, I to found life in the game more enjoyable after the switch which was hard cuz had so much completed on thief but oh well just doing it all again on my guard and rev.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Honestly I've mained thief since 2013, I'm more likely to change game than change main at this point. That said, thief has been nerfed repeatedly to appease other players, so I have no problems playing builds that annoy people and just smiling when they complain. They literally asked for it.