Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" That's what you said. I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. We'll know for sure how wrong you are once Episode 6 hits anyways. Or when Requiem: Caithe goes live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > There is no enchantment. There are flowers disintegrating off a person whose body still shows signs of plant/crystal corruption. And this person is part of a race that can grow and remove flowers from themselves at will. I'm calling it enchantment since I think that's the best word to describe it since corruption is, a corruption, it's not something positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > That's what you said. > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Mental connection doesn't necessary means corruption, the Commander had the connection for a long time. Does that mean the Commander is also corrupted? That's a really bad word to use. They need to expand their vocabulary before answering any questions because now even though "corruption" is not the correct word, you and other people believe that its canon. To be honest, the dev are basically the one making a fan fiction they are calling canon. What's canon is when the Elder Dragon corrupts your body, you are gone, your own being is gone. You are no longer in control. What happened to Caithe is no different that the Revenant taking one of the Legendary Stance where they can use the power of Mallyx but not corrupted by him. > We'll know for sure how wrong you are once Episode 6 hits anyways. Or when Requiem: Caithe goes live. I'll gladly admit if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Mental connection doesn't necessary means corruption, the Commander had the connection for a long time. Does that mean the Commander is also corrupted? That's a really bad word to use. They need to expand their vocabulary before answering any questions because now even though "corruption" is not the correct word, you and other people believe that its canon. To be honest, the dev are basically the one making a fan fiction they are calling canon. What's canon is when the Elder Dragon corrupts your body, you are gone, your own being is gone. You are no longer in control. > > What happened to Caithe is no different that the Revenant taking one of the Legendary Stance where they can use the power of Mallyx but not corrupted by him. Irrelevant vocabulary that only you care about aside, what happens to Caithe is no different than what happens to any dragon minion when they're corrupted, with the sole exception of Caithe retaining free will. Everything else has shown to be the same. It is worlds different than what revenants do, because revenants are merely borrowing power by channeling Mists energy. Their body does not change, they do not establish a permanent mental connection, they do not share magic, and the revenant controls the connection. Revenants are more akin to ritualists who summoned spirits; except revenants summon echoes (which are akin to fractals). Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done and controlled by Aurene, not Caithe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Mental connection doesn't necessary means corruption, the Commander had the connection for a long time. Does that mean the Commander is also corrupted? That's a really bad word to use. They need to expand their vocabulary before answering any questions because now even though "corruption" is not the correct word, you and other people believe that its canon. To be honest, the dev are basically the one making a fan fiction they are calling canon. What's canon is when the Elder Dragon corrupts your body, you are gone, your own being is gone. You are no longer in control. > > > > What happened to Caithe is no different that the Revenant taking one of the Legendary Stance where they can use the power of Mallyx but not corrupted by him. > > Irrelevant vocabulary that only you care about aside, what happens to Caithe is no different than what happens to any dragon minion when they're corrupted, with the sole exception of Caithe retaining free will. Everything else has shown to be the same. > Everything else has shown to be the same? Then why did you say "Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done" below? And what exactly "shown to be the same"? Were there branded Sylvari before Caithe? Of course not, because Sylvari don't get corrupted, instead they die. Mord can only corrupt their mind, but not physically. > It is worlds different than what revenants do, because revenants are merely borrowing power by channeling Mists energy. Their body does not change, they do not establish a permanent mental connection, they do not share magic, and the revenant controls the connection. Revenants are more akin to ritualists who summoned spirits; except revenants summon echoes (which are akin to fractals). > > Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done and controlled by Aurene, not Caithe. First of all, Caithe would be the first "branded" sylvari. Second, part of the lore that Sylvaris are immune to Elder Dragon corruption except Mord is now out of the window. Lastly, there is a chatter in the Forge of eye witness account of what happened to Caithe and she said; "I've got a much scarier threat on my mind... And, for the record, I'd be first in line for flowers over crystals." Which contradicts other information that Caithe transformed into crystal, partial or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Mental connection doesn't necessary means corruption, the Commander had the connection for a long time. Does that mean the Commander is also corrupted? That's a really bad word to use. They need to expand their vocabulary before answering any questions because now even though "corruption" is not the correct word, you and other people believe that its canon. To be honest, the dev are basically the one making a fan fiction they are calling canon. What's canon is when the Elder Dragon corrupts your body, you are gone, your own being is gone. You are no longer in control. > > > > > > What happened to Caithe is no different that the Revenant taking one of the Legendary Stance where they can use the power of Mallyx but not corrupted by him. > > > > Irrelevant vocabulary that only you care about aside, what happens to Caithe is no different than what happens to any dragon minion when they're corrupted, with the sole exception of Caithe retaining free will. Everything else has shown to be the same. > > > > Everything else has shown to be the same? Then why did you say "Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done" below? > > And what exactly "shown to be the same"? Were there branded Sylvari before Caithe? Of course not, because Sylvari don't get corrupted, instead they die. Mord can only corrupt their mind, but not physically. > > > It is worlds different than what revenants do, because revenants are merely borrowing power by channeling Mists energy. Their body does not change, they do not establish a permanent mental connection, they do not share magic, and the revenant controls the connection. Revenants are more akin to ritualists who summoned spirits; except revenants summon echoes (which are akin to fractals). > > > > Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done and controlled by Aurene, not Caithe. > > First of all, Caithe would be the first "branded" sylvari. > Second, part of the lore that Sylvaris are immune to Elder Dragon corruption except Mord is now out of the window. > Lastly, there is a chatter in the Forge of eye witness account of what happened to Caithe and she said; "I've got a much scarier threat on my mind... And, for the record, I'd be first in line for flowers over crystals." Which contradicts other information that Caithe transformed into crystal, partial or not. Sylvari are made from Mordremoth's plant corruption. You cannot convert something into what it already is. And Mordremoth did not corrupt their minds, he brainwashed them. Otherwise, Sylvari returning from the Mordrem Guard would have been impossible. Caithe is the first branded Sylvari. And dreamers are still immune to being forcibly corrupted. Had Aurene not asked nicely Caithe would have simply died. Also, I have no idea how you think that quote contradicts anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Mental connection doesn't necessary means corruption, the Commander had the connection for a long time. Does that mean the Commander is also corrupted? That's a really bad word to use. They need to expand their vocabulary before answering any questions because now even though "corruption" is not the correct word, you and other people believe that its canon. To be honest, the dev are basically the one making a fan fiction they are calling canon. What's canon is when the Elder Dragon corrupts your body, you are gone, your own being is gone. You are no longer in control. > > > > > > > > What happened to Caithe is no different that the Revenant taking one of the Legendary Stance where they can use the power of Mallyx but not corrupted by him. > > > > > > Irrelevant vocabulary that only you care about aside, what happens to Caithe is no different than what happens to any dragon minion when they're corrupted, with the sole exception of Caithe retaining free will. Everything else has shown to be the same. > > > > > > > Everything else has shown to be the same? Then why did you say "Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done" below? > > > > And what exactly "shown to be the same"? Were there branded Sylvari before Caithe? Of course not, because Sylvari don't get corrupted, instead they die. Mord can only corrupt their mind, but not physically. > > > > > It is worlds different than what revenants do, because revenants are merely borrowing power by channeling Mists energy. Their body does not change, they do not establish a permanent mental connection, they do not share magic, and the revenant controls the connection. Revenants are more akin to ritualists who summoned spirits; except revenants summon echoes (which are akin to fractals). > > > > > > Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done and controlled by Aurene, not Caithe. > > > > First of all, Caithe would be the first "branded" sylvari. > > Second, part of the lore that Sylvaris are immune to Elder Dragon corruption except Mord is now out of the window. > > Lastly, there is a chatter in the Forge of eye witness account of what happened to Caithe and she said; "I've got a much scarier threat on my mind... And, for the record, I'd be first in line for flowers over crystals." Which contradicts other information that Caithe transformed into crystal, partial or not. > > Sylvari are made from Mordremoth's plant corruption. You cannot convert something into what it already is. And Mordremoth did not corrupt their minds, he brainwashed them. Otherwise, Sylvari returning from the Mordrem Guard would have been impossible. > Modrem Guards are physically larger then typical Sylvari thus being Modremoth's "plant corruption" has been physically converted. Thus I disagree with you. Also, Corrupting their mind = brainwashing Mordrem Guard changing back to regular Sylvari is not physically impossible since the Sylvari can change their appearance at will. This is why Modremoth can only corrupt their mind and not their body. > Caithe is the first branded Sylvari. And Sylvari are still immune to being forcibly corrupted. Had Aurene not asked nicely Caithe would have simply died. Also, I have no idea how you think that quote contradicts anything. > Corruption is corruption willingly accepted or not. The physiology of the Sylvari will deteriorate and they will die when corrupted. Now if this is no longer true just to push the new story narrative, then they have successfully broke their own lore. EDIT: As for the chatter, they saw Caithe grew flowers and not crystals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > > > That's what you said. > > > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. Of course, it is. Corruption: "the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased." If I turn a rock into a cookie it doesn't matter how much you like the latter, I have irreparably change something in defiance of nature. Caithe is already irradiated plant matter, making her crystalline only adds to the abnormality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > > > > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > > > > > That's what you said. > > > > > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > > > > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. > > Of course, it is. Corruption: "the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased." > > If I turn a rock into a cookie it doesn't matter how much you like the latter, I have irreparably change something in defiance of nature. Caithe is already irradiated plant matter, making her crystalline only adds to the abnormality. That's a bad example -- it's still a rock. Calling a rock a cookie is a misnomer. The rule that ArenaNet set up for themselves based on their lore is that, if Sylvari gets corrupted, they die. Since Caithe didn't die, it is not a corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > > > > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > > > > > > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > > > > > > > That's what you said. > > > > > > > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > > > > > > > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. > > > > Of course, it is. Corruption: "the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased." > > > > If I turn a rock into a cookie it doesn't matter how much you like the latter, I have irreparably change something in defiance of nature. Caithe is already irradiated plant matter, making her crystalline only adds to the abnormality. > > That's a bad example -- it's still a rock. Calling a rock a cookie is a misnomer. > > The rule that ArenaNet set up for themselves based on their lore is that, if Sylvari gets corrupted, they die. Since Caithe didn't die, it is not a corruption. I said turning, not calling. Once a dragon/champion turns one thing into another it has been corrupted. It can't change back. And what Anet implied was Sylvari die when corrupted because of the protection of the Dream. They also said the connection to the Dream is mediated by each Sylvari and the Pale Tree. This shouldn't be difficult to understand. Caithe is twice corrupted, first by the Pale Tree, now by Aurene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. The only difference between the two being that the Elder Dragons use this power to dominate and enslave their victims against their will.. where as Aurine enhanced Caithe without striping her of her free will and only with Caithes consent. If we managed to make a super serum that greatly enhanced our physical abilities at the cost of our appearance and could be abused to control our minds.. would it be seen as mutilation/corruption or would it be seen as an enhancement? That would depend entirely on how it was used. To willing participants it would be positive enhancement with many benefits. To unwilling participants it would be seen as mutilation and a gross corruption of their being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > > > > > > > > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > > > > > > > > > That's what you said. > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. > > > > > > Of course, it is. Corruption: "the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased." > > > > > > If I turn a rock into a cookie it doesn't matter how much you like the latter, I have irreparably change something in defiance of nature. Caithe is already irradiated plant matter, making her crystalline only adds to the abnormality. > > > > That's a bad example -- it's still a rock. Calling a rock a cookie is a misnomer. > > > > The rule that ArenaNet set up for themselves based on their lore is that, if Sylvari gets corrupted, they die. Since Caithe didn't die, it is not a corruption. > > I said turning, not calling. Once a dragon/champion turns one thing into another it has been corrupted. > The transformation of a human to branded is not a transformation of a rock to a cookie. A branded human is still human that just happen to be corrupted with branding. So your rock is still a rock that you simply covered with mud to make it look like cookie chips. Thus calling it a cookie is a misnomer otherwise it's non sequitur. Either way it's a bad example. > And what Anet implied was that Sylvari die when corrupted because of the protection of the Dream. They also said the connection to the Dream is mediated by each Sylvari and the Pale Tree. This shouldn't be difficult to understand. Being immune to corruption and dying instead is also very simple to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > The only difference between the two being that the Elder Dragons use this power to dominate and enslave their victims against their will.. > where as Aurine enhanced Caithe without striping her of her free will and only with Caithes consent. > > If we managed to make a super serum that greatly enhanced our physical abilities at the cost of our appearance and could by abused to control our minds.. would it be seen as mutilation/corruption or would it be seen as an enhancement? > That would depend entirely on how it was used. > To willing participants it would be positive enhancement with many benefits. > To unwilling participants it would be seen as mutilation and a gross corruption of their being. > Infusions are temporary. Corruption is not. If you remove all the dragon magic from corrupted matter it will kill whatever it was, and not revert it back to its original form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Everything else has shown to be the same? Then why did you say "Caithe's *transformation,* on the other hand, is physical and permanent and done" below? What part is unclear there? That second line is about comparing it to revenant legends, not dragon corruption, which is physical, permanent, and controlled by the relevant dragon. > And what exactly "shown to be the same"? Were there branded Sylvari before Caithe? Of course not, because Sylvari don't get corrupted, instead they die. Mord can only corrupt their mind, but not physically. Technically, Mordremoth couldn't even corrupt their mind. The Dream has protected sylvari, while allowing Aurene's "transformation" through, but it's still the same effect that Kralkatorrik does on anything else. Body turns to crystal, a mental connection is formed, and the effected individual begins using crystal magic (just as Caithe turned her dagger into a crystalline sword). The only difference between what Aurene did, and what Kralkatorrik did, is that Aurene didn't dominate Caithe's mind. That's it. > First of all, Caithe would be the first "branded" sylvari. > Second, part of the lore that Sylvaris are immune to Elder Dragon corruption except Mord is now out of the window. > Lastly, there is a chatter in the Forge of eye witness account of what happened to Caithe and she said; "I've got a much scarier threat on my mind... And, for the record, I'd be first in line for flowers over crystals." Which contradicts other information that Caithe transformed into crystal, partial or not. Without the Dream to protect the sylvari, there would be no immunity. It's not really "out the window" because it's still there. The Dream just chose to let Aurene's through - the only logical explanation we can deduce for why atm is because Aurene didn't try to dominate Caithe's mind. I don't see how that line at all contradicts Caithe turning into crystal. You're also taking the discussion a bit out of context; that line is ultimately saying "I'd prefer to be branded by Aurene than Kralkatorrik", but that's not saying the obviously crystalline flowers aren't crystals, it's saying that the person would prefer crystals that look like flowers over the sharp, jagged crystals of Kralkatorrik. If you look at Aurene's branding, you'll note that none of it has sharp points, it's all smooth, unlike Kralkatorrik's branding. Thus "flower over crystals". > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Modrem Guards are physically larger then typical Sylvari thus being Modremoth's "plant corruption" has been physically converted. Thus I disagree with you. Also, > Corrupting their mind = brainwashing > > Mordrem Guard changing back to regular Sylvari is not physically impossible since the Sylvari can change their appearance at will. This is why Modremoth can only corrupt their mind and not their body. We've already discussed this. The Mordrem Guard's physical appearance has been confirmed by a dev - [here's a link, *again*](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329) - to just be Mordremoth dictating the sylvari's natural ability to change their appearance. It is not corruption. And there is a difference between traditional brainwashing via subtle whispering into the mind (what Mordremoth did before just bombarding those who didn't turn initially with thoughts), and forcibly removing an individual's free will. Dragon corruption isn't really brainwashing. It's brain**wiping**. > Corruption is corruption willingly accepted or not. The physiology of the Sylvari will deteriorate and they will die when corrupted. Now if this is no longer true just to push the new story narrative, then they have successfully broke their own lore. > > EDIT: > As for the chatter, they saw Caithe grew flowers and not crystals. They say her grow crystal flowers. Those are crystal flowers, no ands ifs or buts about it. Hell, you even said so before with your "enchanted" talk. And sylvari not being immune to corruption is actually rather obvious, as you merely need to circumvent what prevents corruption - i.e., the Dream. By all evidence, if we throw Malyck or some other sylvari from his tree, who has no connection to the Dream, in front of an Elder Dragon, that sylvari **will** be corrupted. And the same goes for any mordrem, risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, or whatever the hell the DSD's minions end up being called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > > > > > > That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, [you can see](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Aurene_and_Caithe.jpg) that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away. > > > > > > > > > > > > "In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal" > > > > > > > > > > > > That's what you said. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling you you're wrong. Some of her actual flesh did turn to crystal. She didn't just turn blue. And the devs outright stated that Caithe was branded. It's find if you develop headcanon for fan fiction, but that doesn't make it canon. Canon is that Caithe was corrupted, not "enchanted". Caithe was given a mental connection with Aurene, and her flesh turned to crystal; the only difference besides color between Aurene corrupting Caithe, and Kralkatorrik corrupting people, is that Aurene didn't use that mental connection to dominate and destroy Caithe's free will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Caithe is Caithe, they she's not corrupted. Using the word "corruption" to describe what happen to her is not intuitive. > > > > > > > > Of course, it is. Corruption: "the process by which something is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased." > > > > > > > > If I turn a rock into a cookie it doesn't matter how much you like the latter, I have irreparably change something in defiance of nature. Caithe is already irradiated plant matter, making her crystalline only adds to the abnormality. > > > > > > That's a bad example -- it's still a rock. Calling a rock a cookie is a misnomer. > > > > > > The rule that ArenaNet set up for themselves based on their lore is that, if Sylvari gets corrupted, they die. Since Caithe didn't die, it is not a corruption. > > > > I said turning, not calling. Once a dragon/champion turns one thing into another it has been corrupted. > > > > The transformation of a human to branded is not a transformation of a rock to a cookie. A branded human is still human that just happen to be corrupted with branding. So your rock is still a rock that you simply covered with mud to make it look like cookie chips. Thus calling it a cookie is a misnomer otherwise it's non sequitur. Either way it's a bad example. There are instances where corruption is still in the process of converting an entity. Some Icebrood are covered in ice but have some original tissue left. However, this is temporary. Eventually, the entire form is replaced. There are other instances where corruption is sculpted into an entity at the direction of a dragon/champion. Caithe was made from scratch using Mordremoth's magic and then part of her form was converted into crystal using Kralkatorriks. We will get to see how much of plant is replaced by crystal. > > > And what Anet implied was that Sylvari die when corrupted because of the protection of the Dream. They also said the connection to the Dream is mediated by each Sylvari and the Pale Tree. This shouldn't be difficult to understand. > > Being immune to corruption and dying instead is also very simple to understand. They aren't immune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > The only difference between the two being that the Elder Dragons use this power to dominate and enslave their victims against their will.. > where as Aurine enhanced Caithe without striping her of her free will and only with Caithes consent. > > If we managed to make a super serum that greatly enhanced our physical abilities at the cost of our appearance and could be abused to control our minds.. would it be seen as mutilation/corruption or would it be seen as an enhancement? > That would depend entirely on how it was used. > To willing participants it would be positive enhancement with many benefits. > To unwilling participants it would be seen as mutilation and a gross corruption of their being. Exactly what I've been trying to say. Thank you. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The transformation of a human to branded is not a transformation of a rock to a cookie. A branded human is still human that just happen to be corrupted with branding. So your rock is still a rock that you simply covered with mud to make it look like cookie chips. Thus calling it a cookie is a misnomer otherwise it's non sequitur. Either way it's a bad example. That's just asinine semantics and you're really contradicting yourself at this point. Branded humans are no longer flesh and blood. They can barely be called humans. They're crystalline elementals that were once human, but are no longer so. Their very insides are no longer flesh, their bodies literally comprise of three things: decayed skin, stone, and crystal. Sometimes just two: crystal and stone. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > Infusions are temporary. Corruption is not. If you remove all the dragon magic from corrupted matter it will kill whatever it was, and not revert it back to its original form. Depends on the type of infusing you're talking about. If you're talking about [these infusions](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion), then obviously yes, it is temporary. If you go by [this infusion](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Infusion), then no, it is indeed permanent. But if you go by the definition of the word, then really it can be either or, but in general it leans towards the permanent side. That said, dragon corruption [isn't](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint) [really](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twitchy) [permanent](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mawdrey). At least the mental effects of it aren't. For all intents and purposes, the jury's still out on whether the physical side is - though given that, as Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster showed, dragon minions can be corrupted and based on Caithe, the physical side seems to be a 'permanent until overridden' situation, but we can't really be 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > Infusions are temporary. Corruption is not. If you remove all the dragon magic from corrupted matter it will kill whatever it was, and not revert it back to its original form. > > Depends on the type of infusing you're talking about. If you're talking about [these infusions](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion), then obviously yes, it is temporary. If you go by [this infusion](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Infusion), then no, it is indeed permanent. But if you go by the definition of the word, then really it can be either or, but in general it leans towards the permanent side. > > That said, dragon corruption [isn't](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint) [really](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twitchy) [permanent](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mawdrey). At least the mental effects of it aren't. For all intents and purposes, the jury's still out on whether the physical side is - though given that, as Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster showed, dragon minions can be corrupted and based on Caithe, the physical side seems to be a 'permanent until overridden' situation, but we can't really be 100% sure. For the purposes of whether Caithe has sponteanously reverted back to pure plant following Aurene's death, permanent until overriden is good enough. The topic is why she lost her flowers. Did she destroy them herself as Sylvari are fully capable, or did Aurene's death do something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > By all evidence, if we throw Malyck or some other sylvari from his tree, who has no connection to the Dream, in front of an Elder Dragon, that sylvari **will** be corrupted. And the same goes for any mordrem, risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, or whatever the hell the DSD's minions end up being called. I believed this to be the case too, but now I’m second guessing because the devs are saying this now: “Dragon Minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons. That's why the Sylvari are immune to Zhaitan's magic in Orr.” Was the Pale Tree being that unreliable narrator? Giving the player the reason why the Sylvari weren’t returning as Risen. Yes yes it’s the dream protecting them because if you remember that conversation takes place before Sylvari are confirmed to be dragon minions. Maybe the dream protection only involves Mordremoth, hence why Scarlet and Aerin were just converted to serving Mordremoth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > By all evidence, if we throw Malyck or some other sylvari from his tree, who has no connection to the Dream, in front of an Elder Dragon, that sylvari **will** be corrupted. And the same goes for any mordrem, risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, or whatever the hell the DSD's minions end up being called. > > I believed this to be the case too, but now I’m second guessing because the devs are saying this now: > > “Dragon Minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons. That's why the Sylvari are immune to Zhaitan's magic in Orr.” > > Was the Pale Tree being that unreliable narrator? Giving the player the reason why the Sylvari weren’t returning as Risen. Yes yes it’s the dream protecting them because if you remember that conversation takes place before Sylvari are confirmed to be dragon minions. > > Maybe the dream protection only involves Mordremoth, hence why Scarlet and Aerin were just converted to serving Mordremoth. Given that the Pale Tree is not our only source (Ogden and also, far more importantly due to when it was said, HoT promotions [such as this one](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/) which wouldn't be unreliable narrator and takes place after the reveal), I kind of figured that the dev who said that on GuildChat just forgot about that barely mentioned bit of lore. Given how often devs tend to forget other tidbits during forum chats, etc., it wouldn't be unusual or surprising. The Dream actually served as the way Mordremoth got to sylvari. By all indication, it prevented corruption, but was what allowed that mass telepathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > > > The only difference between the two being that the Elder Dragons use this power to dominate and enslave their victims against their will.. > > where as Aurine enhanced Caithe without striping her of her free will and only with Caithes consent. > > > > If we managed to make a super serum that greatly enhanced our physical abilities at the cost of our appearance and could by abused to control our minds.. would it be seen as mutilation/corruption or would it be seen as an enhancement? > > That would depend entirely on how it was used. > > To willing participants it would be positive enhancement with many benefits. > > To unwilling participants it would be seen as mutilation and a gross corruption of their being. > > > > Infusions are temporary. Corruption is not. If you remove all the dragon magic from corrupted matter it will kill whatever it was, and not revert it back to its original form. Well that depends on the kind of infusion and removeal processes I guess.. some infusons are temporary but some are permanent. Glint was freed from her corruption yet survived so we know it's possible.. likewise the Pale Tree is also a purified Dragon Minion herself.. as are the Sylvari race. And when Aurine died Caithe's body changed.. flowers wilted etc which again is something new as the only changes known to effect dragon minions after their master dies is that they typically become unhinged and often feral.. like monsters.. while some remain loyal and only a rare few regain their senses which again is something we do not fully understand.. but in all those cases their bodies and mutations.. abilities etc do not change as far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > That's what I've been saying. It is more like an enchantment (infusion of magic) rather than a corruption. If we look at a weapon, a sword, and you infuse it with fire magic, it doesn't corrupt the sword thus when the magic ends, the sword remain intact. Now if the sword is corrupted by magic, it starts to corrode and changes in form, thus even if the magic fades away, the sword is now deformed. So it is not very convincing that Caithe is corrupted even with good intention because corruption destroys and never gentle. > The only difference between the two being that the Elder Dragons use this power to dominate and enslave their victims against their will.. > where as Aurine enhanced Caithe without striping her of her free will and only with Caithes consent. > Yes enhanced using magic, aka enchantment. Totally agree. > If we managed to make a super serum that greatly enhanced our physical abilities at the cost of our appearance and could be abused to control our minds.. would it be seen as mutilation/corruption or would it be seen as an enhancement? > That would depend entirely on how it was used. > To willing participants it would be positive enhancement with many benefits. > To unwilling participants it would be seen as mutilation and a gross corruption of their being. > Not necessarily always the case. For instance, Captain America is willing and got the benefits while Spiderman is unwilling and also got the benefits. Also, there are many willing soldiers subjected to the super soldier serum after Capt. American that didn't receive the benefits. In GW2, many sons of Svanir are willing yet they are no different than those who are corrupted unwillingly. So I really doubt that consent is the key here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > By all evidence, if we throw Malyck or some other sylvari from his tree, who has no connection to the Dream, in front of an Elder Dragon, that sylvari **will** be corrupted. And the same goes for any mordrem, risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, or whatever the hell the DSD's minions end up being called. > > > > I believed this to be the case too, but now I’m second guessing because the devs are saying this now: > > > > “Dragon Minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons. That's why the Sylvari are immune to Zhaitan's magic in Orr.” > > > > Was the Pale Tree being that unreliable narrator? Giving the player the reason why the Sylvari weren’t returning as Risen. Yes yes it’s the dream protecting them because if you remember that conversation takes place before Sylvari are confirmed to be dragon minions. > > > > Maybe the dream protection only involves Mordremoth, hence why Scarlet and Aerin were just converted to serving Mordremoth. > > Given that the Pale Tree is not our only source (Ogden and also, far more importantly due to when it was said, HoT promotions [such as this one](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/) which wouldn't be unreliable narrator and takes place after the reveal), I kind of figured that the dev who said that on GuildChat just forgot about that barely mentioned bit of lore. Given how often devs tend to forget other tidbits during forum chats, etc., it wouldn't be unusual or surprising. > > The Dream actually served as the way Mordremoth got to sylvari. By all indication, it prevented corruption, but was what allowed that mass telepathy. I think there’s a couple things to note from what the Pale Tree says. From a Sylvari, they ask why they have been immune to dragon corruption, which was a key point to why the Sylvari were effective in Orr, which stated time and time again through the campaign. The Pale Tree obviously doesn’t say oh the reason none of the Sylvari came back as Risen is because your dragon minions. She states oh yes it’s because I protect you from within the dream, this is probably very true for Mordremoth, But probably not to Zhaitan. At this point, Sylvari aren’t known to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree doesn’t want to give up this secret, and never does, since she been in a bad state since Season 2. The player has to find it out from the truth seeds as well as from Caithe. So while the dream protects Sylvari, it probably only protects them from Mordremoth converting them. While the other dragons, they would simply die. Essentially the Pale Tree is trying to give a reason for the why Sylvari are immune, without giving away that they are the Jungle dragon’s minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > > > That's what I've been saying. It is more like an enchantment (infusion of magic) rather than a corruption. If we look at a weapon, a sword, and you infuse it with fire magic, it doesn't corrupt the sword thus when the magic ends, the sword remain intact. Now if the sword is corrupted by magic, it starts to corrode and changes in form, thus even if the magic fades away, the sword is now deformed. So it is not very convincing that Caithe is corrupted even with good intention because corruption destroys and never gentle. Caithe was "changed in form". It's not some mere enchantment that could be removed. her crystalline matter is permanent now. Just as a risen/unchained's rotten matter is permanent, or a branded's crystalline matter is permanent. Which is what Teratus was saying. Yet you agree while disagreeing. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I think there’s a couple things to note from what the Pale Tree says. > > From a Sylvari, they ask why they have been immune to dragon corruption, which was a key point to why the Sylvari were effective in Orr, which stated time and time again through the campaign. The Pale Tree obviously doesn’t say oh the reason none of the Sylvari came back as Risen is because your dragon minions. She states oh yes it’s because I protect you from within the dream, this is probably very true for Mordremoth, But probably not to Zhaitan. At this point, Sylvari aren’t known to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree doesn’t want to give up this secret, and never does, since she been in a bad state since Season 2. The player has to find it out from the truth seeds as well as from Caithe. > > So while the dream protects Sylvari, it probably only protects them from Mordremoth converting them. While the other dragons, they would simply die. > > Essentially the Pale Tree is trying to give a reason for the why Sylvari are immune, without giving away that they are the Jungle dragon’s minions. In the article I linked, it states: _"[...] only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence."_ The only thing that "the protection of the Pale Tree" could be is the Dream, yet Mordremoth very explicitly exploits this as his primary means for his "call". So it very clearly isn't protection against Mordremoth, which is also what the Pale Tree suggested: that Mordremoth is capable of bypassing the protection she gives. The Pale Tree (and Ogden) do suggest in S2 that Mordremoth is capable of bypassing that protection due to sylvari being plants and Mordremoth being the Elder Plant Dragon, but we learn the real reason is because Mordremoth is connected to the Dream too. This means that the "protection from the Pale Tree" does not "only protects them from Mordremoth converting them" since Mordremoth is the one which the protection does **not** work against. It should also be noted that sylvari are never stated to be corrupted by Mordremoth either - at least not in those promotions for HoT - instead it is always called "Mordremoth's influence". Influence rather than corruption is a rather interesting change in terminology, and no doubt ties into the fact that as we see during Buried Insight, even while Mordremoth lived they merely needed to be separated from his ability to telepathically communicate via the Dream with the Mordrem Guard for them to become capable of returning to their old selves (so long as no fool does what Canach did and push them back to Mordremoth's given mentality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > > > > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > > > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > > > > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > > > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > > > > > > That's what I've been saying. It is more like an enchantment (infusion of magic) rather than a corruption. If we look at a weapon, a sword, and you infuse it with fire magic, it doesn't corrupt the sword thus when the magic ends, the sword remain intact. Now if the sword is corrupted by magic, it starts to corrode and changes in form, thus even if the magic fades away, the sword is now deformed. So it is not very convincing that Caithe is corrupted even with good intention because corruption destroys and never gentle. > > Caithe was "changed in form". It's not some mere enchantment that could be removed. her crystalline matter is permanent now. Just as a risen/unchained's rotten matter is permanent, or a branded's crystalline matter is permanent. > > Which is what Teratus was saying. Yet you agree while disagreeing. > What I understand Teratus is saying is that Aurene is not an Elder Dragon yet, thus her "branding" does not corrupt. The reason why the branded minions are corrupted is due to the amount of magic that was infused into their system. It's the difference between someone using steroids for medical purposes with regulated amount of dosage and someone who are overdosed with steroids where you can see some physiological deformation. A small amount of infused magic is enough to enhance, but not enough to deform, which what I've said using the enchanted sword example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > I agree that it's only really defined as corruption because there has never been a positive way to view the process. > > > > > > We simply do not understand what Aurine did to caithe.. nor do we fully understand dragon corruption in general. > > > Until recently we've only ever seen elder dragons using this magic to enslave and dominate and that's likely where the term corruption was defined. > > > > > > If you really break it down.. you could probably make an argument that this dragon corruption is actually some form of infusion based magic.. > > > Aurine infused Caithe with her own magic.. enhancing her in ways we don't fully understand yet.. and the same could be said for the Elder Dragons who infuse their minions with new powers and abilities.. enhancing them. > > > > > > > That's what I've been saying. It is more like an enchantment (infusion of magic) rather than a corruption. If we look at a weapon, a sword, and you infuse it with fire magic, it doesn't corrupt the sword thus when the magic ends, the sword remain intact. Now if the sword is corrupted by magic, it starts to corrode and changes in form, thus even if the magic fades away, the sword is now deformed. So it is not very convincing that Caithe is corrupted even with good intention because corruption destroys and never gentle. > > Caithe was "changed in form". It's not some mere enchantment that could be removed. her crystalline matter is permanent now. Just as a risen/unchained's rotten matter is permanent, or a branded's crystalline matter is permanent. > > Which is what Teratus was saying. Yet you agree while disagreeing. > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I think there’s a couple things to note from what the Pale Tree says. > > > > From a Sylvari, they ask why they have been immune to dragon corruption, which was a key point to why the Sylvari were effective in Orr, which stated time and time again through the campaign. The Pale Tree obviously doesn’t say oh the reason none of the Sylvari came back as Risen is because your dragon minions. She states oh yes it’s because I protect you from within the dream, this is probably very true for Mordremoth, But probably not to Zhaitan. At this point, Sylvari aren’t known to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree doesn’t want to give up this secret, and never does, since she been in a bad state since Season 2. The player has to find it out from the truth seeds as well as from Caithe. > > > > So while the dream protects Sylvari, it probably only protects them from Mordremoth converting them. While the other dragons, they would simply die. > > > > Essentially the Pale Tree is trying to give a reason for the why Sylvari are immune, without giving away that they are the Jungle dragon’s minions. > > In the article I linked, it states: > > _"[...] only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence."_ > > The only thing that "the protection of the Pale Tree" could be is the Dream, yet Mordremoth very explicitly exploits this as his primary means for his "call". So it very clearly isn't protection against Mordremoth, which is also what the Pale Tree suggested: that Mordremoth is capable of bypassing the protection she gives. The Pale Tree (and Ogden) do suggest in S2 that Mordremoth is capable of bypassing that protection due to sylvari being plants and Mordremoth being the Elder Plant Dragon, but we learn the real reason is because Mordremoth is connected to the Dream too. This means that the "protection from the Pale Tree" does not "only protects them from Mordremoth converting them" since Mordremoth is the one which the protection does **not** work against. > > It should also be noted that sylvari are never stated to be corrupted by Mordremoth either - at least not in those promotions for HoT - instead it is always called "Mordremoth's influence". Influence rather than corruption is a rather interesting change in terminology, and no doubt ties into the fact that as we see during Buried Insight, even while Mordremoth lived they merely needed to be separated from his ability to telepathically communicate via the Dream with the Mordrem Guard for them to become capable of returning to their old selves (so long as no fool does what Canach did and push them back to Mordremoth's given mentality). Yeah, I wanted to use the word converting here, rather then corruption, whether it’s a better term or not, I’m not sure. This protection we keep hearing about, perhaps why it’s not 100% effective against Mordremoth is perhaps because the Pale Tree has been injured and is semi conscious at this point. We also have Aerin, who is apparently soundless now and is less connected to the Dream, now being converted by Mordremoth, which if the above theory was correct, should not have been converted or at the very least, would have been harder to convert. The Pale Tree advises that these Sylvari aren’t protected as well and leaves them vulnerable. I feel like a lot of this Dream, protection, the call and all that gets really really messy when you try to sort through it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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