Just me or the "high risk, high reward" professions seem like they don't deliver on the reward part?

[Zexanima.7851]

I've mostly played warrior and ranger in the past, while difficult in their own way, are a lot more forgiving than something like weaver or core thief. I've been delving more into the 'harder' professions in search of one that I can really grow with (I know, I know, difficulty is subjective). In particular it's been weaver, thief, and engineer (eventually rev). I've geared them out with exotic berserker armor and ascended berserker trinkets and weapons. I'll grab a build off metabattle and practice the .rotation until I'm comfortable with it. Then I test them against some harder hero points to see how they preform (like Coztic Itzel Belongings or Pile of Guano in Verdant Brink).

 

When executing a near perfect rotation on weaver or timing things exactly on thief I don't _feel_ like I'm getting any more impact out of them. On ranger I can merge -> sic' em -> quickening zephyr -> maul -> hilt bash -> maul -> wordly impact in less time than it takes to pull off the weaver rotation and it feels like it dishes out more damage. If not more damage, the difference is so small I don't notice it. This is just one example but it's generally the impression I got from the experience. Not to mention ranger/warrior it is much safer to dish out your burst. It makes me wonder, other than flavor, is there really any advantage in playing professions that demand better timing and awareness?

 

(Now I realize this doesn't take into account PvP but that takes a much longer time investment to learn and get 'comfortable' enough with a profession to form an opinion on it so I'm just basing my experience here off of PvE. Maybe when I have some more time I'll do the same thing in PvP)

[Dahkeus.8243]

Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

 

You're absolutely right. How often is a player actually under those ideal conditions though? I mean, I don't spend 100% of my time doing raid content with maximum buffs up all the time. That's only a small portion of the population. The risk and reward doesn't feel proportional to me and as a player it's import on how a profession _feels_ to play. I'm not sitting with one hand on the keyboard and another on a calculator adding up all my damage numbers as they hit (yes, I know dps meters exist). If how things felt to play were not a factor then we might as well just play SpreadSheetOnline. So this is __regarding__ how those professions come off to me in particular, regardless of their ideal benchmarks. I was just wondering if this an issue with other people or if there is more to get out of those professions that I'm missing.

[Apokriphos.7042]

Arenanet does not balance by the potential dps between classes. Instead, according to previous patch notes, they balance based on popularity. As previous poster mentioned, stonecrows shows this well. Some classes SIGNIFICANTLY outperform their role sharing counterparts, just look at reaper, sitting at just above 29000 in a solely DPS role without team support, literally right next to team support classes in snowcrow dps performance.

 

The end result of this is that GW2 developers dont intend for GW2 to have any balanced competitive formats. That isnt where they make money. Instead, you should continually switch to the flavor of the month builds that are most optimal in the game mode you play. Perhaps you will spend more gems that way.

[Iris Ng.9845]

I play weaver in fractals and raid, and have been playing ele in the instanced content since 2014. For my worth of experience, if I want to reach the maximum potential in group content, given maximum supports, I'll reach to my ele and thief. It's hard to play them well but truly rewarding so. If I join a random pug group that cannot do any mechanics, much less support, I'd just chill in my power reaper and watch the world burn.

 

Now if PvE isn't the game for you, then I guess, people pick thief for being one of the most mobile and the glassiest classes. It feels good to straddle on that thin line of getting oneshot, or oneshoting your opponent. As for ele, it's always in a strange spot. Anet doesn't want the ele stands out as a jack-of-all-trade bruiser, but continuously nerf the support builds. For what's it worth, ele is still a good support class.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

If ur talking pve daredevil with zerker gear and Assassin signet is great damage just pop signet and auto with weakening charge in mix. If ur talking pvp thief is not top tier damage unless ur opponent just stands there and doesn’t use defensive skills. With DD u will have to spam bound/vault/and auto’s if u can with weakening charge in the mix, rest of the weapons do garbage damage unless ur using a niche build for stealth backstabbing. Have fun :)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

PVE is in a weird place when it comes to profession balance. All professions need to have good DPS, but also provide other unique abilities to make them worthwhile. Things that are good in PVP like mobility, cripple, slow, and stealth are nearly useless in PVE.

 

Part of it might be the build. The thing about the meta builds is that they're tailor-made for specific roles, with specific support groups, against specific raid bosses. The meta builds aren't the best everywhere. For example, when I play weaver in the overworld I camp earth/fire so I can open with Sandstorm and Lava Skin. This eats the first attacks and provides a safe engagement space. In a raid, this tactic is nigh useless, but in PVE it solves a lot of problems before they happen.

 

Another part of it is the additional utilities that each class provides. Back in my pre-expansion days I would bring the thief into dungeons because, ironically, it was the safest class for me to bring. Black Powder and Smoke Screen would disable all of the enemies, letting me carry the stack single-handed. Headshot and Pistol Whip let me strip away defiance stacks to CC as necessary. All of the skill evades meant that I could solo the champions of the situation demands. Shadow Refuge let me skip dangerous enemies, and also is the best rez skill in the game if used for that purpose. These utilities don't translate well everywhere. Blinds aren't useful against a break bar, for example.

 

To talk about the weaver specifically, the biggest issue is that the profession is divided against itself. The four elements give the elementalist forward mobility, condition damage, power damage, and group heals. The problem? Only one of these is useful at any time in PVE. You can only build yourself to be good at one (believe me, I've tried). This is contrary to... nearly every other class, which is capable of being good at multiple things at once with a single cohesive build. It's quite unfortunate, but hard to balance without breaking things elsewhere. A side note is that the Staff, while not used for most raids/fractal content, still fulfills a unique niche with all of the AoE damage it does at 1200 range.

 

The weaver is probably the only class where the risk involved legitimately isn't worth it, except for punching bag bosses with plenty of group support. However, Weaver is still fun to play.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> PVE is in a weird place when it comes to profession balance. All professions need to have good DPS, but also provide other unique abilities to make them worthwhile. Things that are good in PVP like mobility, cripple, slow, and stealth are nearly useless in PVE.

>

> Part of it might be the build. The thing about the meta builds is that they're tailor-made for specific roles, with specific support groups, against specific raid bosses. The meta builds aren't the best everywhere. For example, when I play weaver in the overworld I camp earth/fire so I can open with Sandstorm and Lava Skin. This eats the first attacks and provides a safe engagement space. In a raid, this tactic is nigh useless, but in PVE it solves a lot of problems before they happen.

>

> Another part of it is the additional utilities that each class provides. Back in my pre-expansion days I would bring the thief into dungeons because, ironically, it was the safest class for me to bring. Black Powder and Smoke Screen would disable all of the enemies, letting me carry the stack single-handed. Headshot and Pistol Whip let me strip away defiance stacks to CC as necessary. All of the skill evades meant that I could solo the champions of the situation demands. Shadow Refuge let me skip dangerous enemies, and also is the best rez skill in the game if used for that purpose. These utilities don't translate well everywhere. Blinds aren't useful against a break bar, for example.

>

> To talk about the weaver specifically, the biggest issue is that the profession is divided against itself. The four elements give the elementalist forward mobility, condition damage, power damage, and group heals. The problem? Only one of these is useful at any time in PVE. You can only build yourself to be good at one (believe me, I've tried). This is contrary to... nearly every other class, which is capable of being good at multiple things at once with a single cohesive build. It's quite unfortunate, but hard to balance without breaking things elsewhere. A side note is that the Staff, while not used for most raids/fractal content, still fulfills a unique niche with all of the AoE damage it does at 1200 range.

>

> The weaver is probably the only class where the risk involved legitimately isn't worth it, except for punching bag bosses with plenty of group support. However, Weaver is still fun to play.

 

That makes sense. I still really enjoy weaver and thief, it just doesnt feel as rewarding as other professions do to me. I would love to main weaver if I knew when I got good enough I would be able to pull off really cool stuff (like good dps and team support at once). Right now it seems guardian and mesmer are on top which is unfortunate because I dont really enjoy either.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

>

> You're absolutely right. How often is a player actually under those ideal conditions though? I mean, I don't spend 100% of my time doing raid content with maximum buffs up all the time. That's only a small portion of the population. The risk and reward doesn't feel proportional to me and as a player it's import on how a profession _feels_ to play. I'm not sitting with one hand on the keyboard and another on a calculator adding up all my damage numbers as they hit (yes, I know dps meters exist). If how things felt to play were not a factor then we might as well just play SpreadSheetOnline. So this is __regarding__ how those professions come off to me in particular, regardless of their ideal benchmarks. I was just wondering if this an issue with other people or if there is more to get out of those professions that I'm missing.

 

Its very easy to have those special conditions. If you play both classes on top level then benchmarks comes into play but if you are not on top level then usualy easier options become more powerfull. Not to mention power soulbeast might do more damage during your written combo then weaver in the same time but after that your dps drops because you finished your burst and weaver is still bursting.

[Dadnir.5038]

There is no such thing as "high risk, high reward professions", There might be "high risk, high reward builds" thought. With the proper builds/gameplay, thiefs or elementalists can be decently effective with virtually no risk involved. Meta builds are meant to be the most effective tactic available in the hands of experienced players. It's true that some meta build are easier to play than other but that's all that can be said.

[Tman.6349]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> >

> > You're absolutely right. How often is a player actually under those ideal conditions though? I mean, I don't spend 100% of my time doing raid content with maximum buffs up all the time. That's only a small portion of the population. The risk and reward doesn't feel proportional to me and as a player it's import on how a profession _feels_ to play. I'm not sitting with one hand on the keyboard and another on a calculator adding up all my damage numbers as they hit (yes, I know dps meters exist). If how things felt to play were not a factor then we might as well just play SpreadSheetOnline. So this is __regarding__ how those professions come off to me in particular, regardless of their ideal benchmarks. I was just wondering if this an issue with other people or if there is more to get out of those professions that I'm missing.

>

> Its very easy to have those special conditions. If you play both classes on top level then benchmarks comes into play but if you are not on top level then usualy easier options become more powerfull. Not to mention power soulbeast might do more damage during your written combo then weaver in the same time but after that your dps drops because you finished your burst and weaver is still bursting.

 

The burst is the comparison...

[Tman.6349]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> I've mostly played warrior and ranger in the past, while difficult in their own way, are a lot more forgiving than something like weaver or core thief. I've been delving more into the 'harder' professions in search of one that I can really grow with (I know, I know, difficulty is subjective). In particular it's been weaver, thief, and engineer (eventually rev). I've geared them out with exotic berserker armor and ascended berserker trinkets and weapons. I'll grab a build off metabattle and practice the .rotation until I'm comfortable with it. Then I test them against some harder hero points to see how they preform (like Coztic Itzel Belongings or Pile of Guano in Verdant Brink).

>

> When executing a near perfect rotation on weaver or timing things exactly on thief I don't _feel_ like I'm getting any more impact out of them. On ranger I can merge -> sic' em -> quickening zephyr -> maul -> hilt bash -> maul -> wordly impact in less time than it takes to pull off the weaver rotation and it feels like it dishes out more damage. If not more damage, the difference is so small I don't notice it. This is just one example but it's generally the impression I got from the experience. Not to mention ranger/warrior it is much safer to dish out your burst. It makes me wonder, other than flavor, is there really any advantage in playing professions that demand better timing and awareness?

>

> (Now I realize this doesn't take into account PvP but that takes a much longer time investment to learn and get 'comfortable' enough with a profession to form an opinion on it so I'm just basing my experience here off of PvE. Maybe when I have some more time I'll do the same thing in PvP)

 

pvp builds are not meant to be used, or even exercised, in a PvE context. There are different builds for the different modes b/c of inherent game mode factors/mechanics that make a build meta for a certain game mode (forgoing traits/skills/traitlines to take things that have a 10 cap limit as opposed to 5 or a 2600 base toughness for example). You're only gonna and up wondering why this bucket of oranges isn't like this bucket of apples if you try to approach builds in this game in this manner.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Tman.6349" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > > Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> > > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > >

> > > You're absolutely right. How often is a player actually under those ideal conditions though? I mean, I don't spend 100% of my time doing raid content with maximum buffs up all the time. That's only a small portion of the population. The risk and reward doesn't feel proportional to me and as a player it's import on how a profession _feels_ to play. I'm not sitting with one hand on the keyboard and another on a calculator adding up all my damage numbers as they hit (yes, I know dps meters exist). If how things felt to play were not a factor then we might as well just play SpreadSheetOnline. So this is __regarding__ how those professions come off to me in particular, regardless of their ideal benchmarks. I was just wondering if this an issue with other people or if there is more to get out of those professions that I'm missing.

> >

> > Its very easy to have those special conditions. If you play both classes on top level then benchmarks comes into play but if you are not on top level then usualy easier options become more powerfull. Not to mention power soulbeast might do more damage during your written combo then weaver in the same time but after that your dps drops because you finished your burst and weaver is still bursting.

>

> The burst is the comparison...

 

Simple facts. Soulbeast is all about burst. Weaver has huge burst but also high dps.

Benchmark show dps and not burst. If you want dps look at benchmark. If you want something else then look at another site.

I raid with sc member when raiding with my guild and he easily reaches 30k dps on weaver on 1st xera platform. It is possible

[Tman.6349]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Tman.6349" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > > > Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > > >

> > > > You're absolutely right. How often is a player actually under those ideal conditions though? I mean, I don't spend 100% of my time doing raid content with maximum buffs up all the time. That's only a small portion of the population. The risk and reward doesn't feel proportional to me and as a player it's import on how a profession _feels_ to play. I'm not sitting with one hand on the keyboard and another on a calculator adding up all my damage numbers as they hit (yes, I know dps meters exist). If how things felt to play were not a factor then we might as well just play SpreadSheetOnline. So this is __regarding__ how those professions come off to me in particular, regardless of their ideal benchmarks. I was just wondering if this an issue with other people or if there is more to get out of those professions that I'm missing.

> > >

> > > Its very easy to have those special conditions. If you play both classes on top level then benchmarks comes into play but if you are not on top level then usualy easier options become more powerfull. Not to mention power soulbeast might do more damage during your written combo then weaver in the same time but after that your dps drops because you finished your burst and weaver is still bursting.

> >

> > The burst is the comparison...

>

> Simple facts. Soulbeast is all about burst. Weaver has huge burst but also high dps.

> Benchmark show dps and not burst. If you want dps look at benchmark. If you want something else then look at another site.

> I raid with sc member when raiding with my guild and he easily reaches 30k dps on weaver on 1st xera platform. It is possible

 

and if you want bursts look how easily it falls apart. sustained vs burst was obviously the hangup I was pointing out

[Tman.6349]

saying x is still bursting in regards to to a sustain rotation is obviously off the mark

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

 

Except thief was never meant to be DPS. And I never asked for thief to be high dps. Though they did say they balanced based on popularity, which is an asinine way of doing things. As for Ele's dps, it's based on their AOEs hitting the same mob more than a few times. Which kinda makes sense... but not in a PvP scenario.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Elem/weaver suffers its own starting design. A glassy-hybrid class.

Weapon skills / attunement with differents roles : heal, sustain, CC, DPS ..., You have an All-In-One.

But specs are focused too on respective attunement/element, not on utility skills and general gameplay/buff.

Utility skills have low impact on DPS and sustain (except pve may be*) because of that; and weapon skills suffer from long CD, long cast, weak dmg/factor.

 

This was godlike in 2014-2015, but now most of others professions have seen powercreep and rework and they have seen their straights DPS, Support and sustain met, on contrary to elem who still need to spec attunements one by one and swap them to change roles. And one attunement is no more even enough for a role (that why Arcane is mandatory in 99% of builds)

And by roles, I mean roles, for example when you swap to water attunement you already lose DPS, CC etc, but also lose half your traits in fire/air/earth specs, and vice versa. You don't see "Rifle spec, Mace spec, staff spec" in others profession, in no way as pronounced.

In Pve, this is good: high DPS high burst, but long rotation, easily interrupted if you need CC, heal, kite .... and no boonstrip, no boon share, no panic skill (without inttreuption of rotation) ... still very squishy today with new fractal instabilities likes -30% HP or +5% dmg per boons, etc.

 

Where people see twice as much skills than others, elem see twice as much skills than others to expect the same result.

This is not "high risk, high reward" but "high ability, expect same reward".

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

>

> Except thief was never meant to be DPS. And I never asked for thief to be high dps. Though they did say they balanced based on popularity, which is an asinine way of doing things. As for Ele's dps, it's based on their AOEs hitting the same mob more than a few times. Which kinda makes sense... but not in a PvP scenario.

 

Actually thief was soposed to be high dps,high mobility,low sustain high burst. High mobility,low sustain and medium to low burst leads to a disaster that its is. Ask urself in any game mode what does thief offer?nothing but a low amount of mediocre buffs for itself and damage. It lends nothing to its allies and is why other than strait zerker DD being used for dps in raids cuz its rotation is auto spam brainless thief isn’t used at all because it offers nothing but dps and other classes even do that better