celestial gear doesn't exist in competitive/Spvp pvp?

[Erebus.7568]

I think it would be a major boon to the Spvp to allow celestial gear in Spvp for multiple reasons:

1. it gives more overall stats so overall it is just better stats wise, meaning at perfect play it is likely more powerful. However, because it is an all stats gear it eliminates the "broken/op/super Meta" builds setups and equalizes the playing field vastly more as those multiplier/stacking of very few specific stats which then becomes ridiculously OP compared to any other build setup won't be completely steamrolling people in Cele as their overall stats are simply higher.

2. it allows for less bunker builds while still allowing for longer and more rl skill dependent fights, as the heavy burst is vastly decreased in their effectiveness.

3. it allows for a gameplay where you allow for less "cheesy" gameplay(which is always more enjoyable for everyone except the cheesy player, including the audience watching it), as in cele gear you won't get instantly gimped or instantly gimp yourself due to pure build+stats choices vs. any build setup. so you will have far better chances of allowing your rl skills to show your worth (while still not forcing bunker build).

4. it makes ALL abilities important and good to use, making a much wider array of utility+elite skills usable for a wider range of builds, allowing for a more personal playstyle (which again translated into more rl skill dependency as one play style is not VASTLY superior to another).

5. etc.

 

which is why I truly believe Cele gear should be introduced to Spvp, as i think overall it would be a vast improvement to the gameplay and feel, as well as allowing both high skilled and low skilled players a far more overall enjoyable experience.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

I believe celestial was removed because it caused issues with some builds being too OP such as with Ele and Engi.

[Shirlias.8104]

Yep. Hybrid builds were more op than they are now, so there's no way they'll introduce it again.

[Alatar.7364]

Celelestial was removed because it allowed for very OP and Bunker builds.

I would rather throw myself down the cliff than see CeleEle rule the world again.

[Erebus.7568]

that seems weird.

as if equalizing stats distribution to all stats will make builds really OP then it sounds more like a problem with the overall class design as an equal amount of stats in each "stats category" should equal out to the same power increase.

this should properly be a main focus of the balance team imho :)

[Shirlias.8104]

it was indeed releated to the amount of stats provided by the neck, but more than that a problem of bunker/dps.

Celestial allowed some classes ( ele and engi the most ) to deal dmg while protect emselves.

Currently we have different problems, but it's clear that bringing back the old celestial neck is not the solution.

[OlrunTheBlade.1486]

Celestial was more powerful because it gave more stat points. They could add it back to the game if they reduced the bonus stat points you gained from it. The Celestial builds weren't even definitively better; they were just easier to play. A Celestial build fills every role, so rotations are easier. Team fights depend less on focusing the correct target or peeling for and supporting each other. Even back when Celestial was meta, you could run comps with limited use of it. It was just harder. And regardless of whether or not it's balanced in competitive play, easier builds are stronger in queues. That's just how it works. So... yeah... they could add a weakened Celestial Amulet back if they wanted.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

It was might stacking on cele builds that put cele builds over the edge.

Essentially here was the problem:

* A build runs cele so it stats around bunker spec. 100% pure defensive.

* A build sets itself up to stack might and maintain it.

* Cele already provides a mediocre boost to power/prec/condi damage.

* The might stacking to 25 = +750 to power and condi.

* Now figure out how to manage fury uptime with those 25 might stacks.

* All resulting in a bunker that deals way more damage than it should in both phys and condi. Making other build structures obsolete.

 

It wasn't Celestial stats that were broken, it was might stacking.

Removing Celestial was just the easiest route to gut the problem.

 

[Shirlias.8104]

But at this point there's no reason in putting a weakened Celestial Amulet.

[OlrunTheBlade.1486]

It gives players more options. More options always do make balance more difficult. It's a trade off.

[Shirlias.8104]

yeah i mean. the less, the better.

[OlrunTheBlade.1486]

Less options isn't better. It's easier.

[Shirlias.8104]

Nope, it's better.

Think about something like street fighter.

Players able only to chose the class.

 

The developers would have an infinitely more balanced game to work with, and there wont be definitely wrong moves.

The problem here is that the players have to decide if the want personalization or balance.

They can't have both.

 

ofc i would select balance overall.

9 classes to switch with is far enough in exchange for a more balanced game

[OlrunTheBlade.1486]

Most players generally want more customization and flexibility in an MMO. It's not a fighting game.

[Erebus.7568]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> Nope, it's better.

> Think about something like street fighter.

> Players able only to chose the class.

>

> The developers would have an infinitely more balanced game to work with, and there wont be definitely wrong moves.

> The problem here is that the players have to decide if the want personalization or balance.

> They can't have both.

>

> ofc i would select balance overall.

> 9 classes to switch with is far enough in exchange for a more balanced game

 

I think that what he meant with "easier" is when you only have 1 class and 1 build and 1 stats setup, you don't need to balance at all since everyone is exactly the same.

for every increase to either class, build, stats setup amount it gets exponentially more complexed to balance (therefore normally you see stuff like TTK balance, or other such spreadsheet balancing techniques. as it quickly becomes impossible to balance without, which is what I kind of feel happened in gw2).

 

but easier to balance doesn't equal "better gameplay" the two are not that connected, as one is the gameplay experience of the player and the other is the ability of the devs to know proper balancing techniques and have enough overview and skill to use it for proper balancing.

the fewer options you get the more you are forced into a specific playstyle and the more likely it is that the playstyle isn't your preferred style which means you are not having as much fun as you could if you have had the option to play your preferred style.

 

that is also why you see most devs go with the classic class setup and trinity, as they pretty much cover all the main play styles different people like and still limits them enough to do balance reasonably easy.

 

when all that is said, I do also believe the complexity of allowing "all playstyles on all classes, with all types of stats, with all types of ranges and setups, give too much for it to reasonably be balanced, as there are simply too many tweaks to counter what you meet. making it very meta-build heavy and very cheesy in the builds available. as meeting a complete counter build would make you instantly lose and instant win if you meet a build you completely counter.

 

personally, i Love the class setup where it is arch type classes+playstyle and all skills are always available, as it leads to the most balanced pvp generally as well as the full knowledge of exactly what an enemy has to do with and then becomes all about figuring out how to counter/survive that ^^

however as GW2 dev team seems to have something against "long range, magic users=long ranged CC+AOE+bursty classes) I am pretty sure I would dislike if they went that route and suddenly all classes (especially the Elementalist) could only be melee/mid ranged in pvp... although it is almost already like that (almost every fight is fought at under 600 range, max 900 if we really get freaky ;P )