Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Sigmoid.7082]

This is exactly like the time necromancers asked to have vital persistence made baseline because it was so good that they have to take soul reaping for the one trait regardless of build. Because it "would increase build diversity" and "buff underused builds with other traitlines"

 

Anet literally came out and said:

"One of the biggest changes for necromancers in this patch is the change to the Vital Persistence trait. Previously, this trait reduced the rate at which life force decayed while in shroud and was too powerful compared to the other two traits in the same tier. We've changed the functionality of this trait in order to provide a different option that is easier to track and is more competitive with other traits in the same tier. "

Before nuking the trait with an orbital nerf laser.

 

So many parallels to draw here. Be careful what you are drawing attention too and what you are asking for.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> Dare I ask again: If it is about build diversity, why not implement alternatives? To improve other set ups?

>

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Nothing changes for Discipline builds, thus no powercreep.

>

> Oh, there will be a powercreep. For anyone not using Discipline. And now, please. Don't demand other people to debate on how much would change and what exact build might turn out problematic. If there wasn't any improvement, you wouldn't ask for it. On the contrary, you - or anyone desiring such a change - should provide more facts why it would be all right or is the the optimal solution for an issue. More than 'It would be nice and just feels more fluid.' or 'There are scenarios where I'm easier outplayed without FH.'.

>

> This discussion isn't about creating build diversity or smoother gameplay. Otherwise people would be discussing specific issues with the class and be more open-minded for alternatives. There is no credibility in the stated reasoning. In the end, it's just about wanting some candy in form of Fast-Hands. And being upset if people won't hand it out.

>

> People disagree with the request. Feel free to neglect their opinion. This won't change their stance on the topic.

>

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > EDIT: Another thing, with this idea of toning down good stuff to be on par with bad stuff instead of buffing bad stuff to be on par with good stuff, why is it then, that Anet buffed Reaper, Scraper, etc? The idea behind this is the same. If your goal is to lower powercreep in this game, we are not heading this direction obviously.

>

> Then we'd be talking about buffing Berserker.

 

"And now, please. Don't demand other people to debate on how much would change and what exact build might turn out problematic."

I don't demand anything. I ask to explain properly and precisely, but people avoid that for some reason. How can I take someone's arguments seriously, when they avoid answering proper questions?

 

Trust me in this one, I want FH baseline because of rotation fluidity and smoothness the most and I believe it would significantly help non-Discipline builds without breaking them and it would not affect Discipline builds at all (except new minor trait). This is not about feel. This is about experience after playing with 10 second and 5 second weapon swap. Some builds just don't work well because of 10 second weapon swap. Some builds straight require Discipline traitline for its other traits.

There is nothing like "I have this secret non-Discipline build that will be super strong and I can easy kill everything". I even thought about possible build combinations with FH baseline and wrote it in detail in another thread and asked people where in that is powercreep.

 

"This discussion isn't about creating build diversity or smoother gameplay. Otherwise people would be discussing specific issues with the class and be more open-minded for alternatives."

This is exactly what I want and actually do. I wrote examples, ask questions. But instead of talking about how impactful FH baseline would be, possibilities, etc,

we talk about why all arguments to want this change are not valid enough. I think this is just the lack of profesion knowledge, some people commenting here probably have warrior as an alt and swap to it only where there is need for bannerslave and deal support chrono/druid-like dps.

[BlackTruth.6813]

And people still can't find a "legitimate" reason to say why Baseline fast hands should stay out of the game.

 

100% garbage arguments still getting thrown out in opposition to baseline fast hands. "Don't demand people to debate how much would change and what exact build might turn out problematic" THAT is a cop-out and a fail argument

 

Why can't you just say "I can't find an OP/problematic build that will come out for PvP if baseline fast hands were to be implementend, but I will say don't add baseline fast hands to the game anyways" This is how people sound like in this thread, no REAL arguments but will argue against it anyways, effectively wasting our time.

 

Because honestly, THAT would be the only time that logically should not allow fast hands baseline to be in the game, if a problematic build were to come out.

 

Stay classy, logic is hard.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

 

So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

What advantage? That warrior gives up all Discipline traits (except Fast Hands)? There goes my statement "acting like warrior would get whole Discipline traitline as baseline".

I will ask you again and politely, I don't demand it, but it would help our discussion: Please tell me exact and precise build, trait/traitline synergy or situation, where the powercreep would prevail.

 

The new minor trait can be something minor e.g. gain adrenaline (5) when entering combat; gain 3 seconds of swiftness when hitting multiple (3-5) enemies at the same time, with cooldown 10-15 seconds, etc), or something even spicy - Fury is now more effective, providing 25% crit chance bonus instead of 20%, but I assume this is HUGE POWERCREEP and warrior is suddenly unkillable beast that obliterates everything using one skill and no one can stop them.

___

**Important note**

Let's sum this up as simple as possible:

 

You want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality.

Your argument: not big enough reason.

 

I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline.

Your argument: powercreep.

My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc.

Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

 

This is why we are running in cricle. Correct me if this is wrong.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Such a bad argument, "it increases powercreep" but the same people who are "against" baseline fast hands (who said the change was redundant and doesn't really change anything) also said what is the point of not using discipline even with baseline fast hands. NO CONSEQUENCES THEY SAY LMAO.

 

Now you know who are the people that can't be taken seriously.

 

Nice try hypocrites. Next argument, but let me make this easy for you.

 

How is STR ARMS DEF core warrior broken op, assuming baseline fast hands is implemented?

 

P.S I really like how the argument shifts from "don't put in the game, it's a redundant change that won't change" into "it's powercreep that will ruin the game"

 

When somebody changes their story a lot, it really shows that they cannot be taken seriously. BASELINE FAST HANDS did not give Warrior instant cast burst, stealth, or evade spam. Facts don't care about your feelings, use REAL facts such as game mechanics. Not feelings based changing my story constantly.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> How is STR ARMS DEF core warrior broken op, assuming baseline fast hands is implemented?

 

Some people's logic is that buffing something, even if it wouldn't be op, just simple act of improving something, is powercreep and is unhealthy for the game.

They don't seem to realize how exactly it would impact warrior builds, which builds would be how much more stronger, etc. They conveniently look at its surface and don't want to go deeper.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

>

> So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

 

Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

 

I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

Also if people are saying that this will be "broken in PvE" that's just flat out pathetic. Literally people are worked up over PvE when this game is basely even challenging than something such as Path of Exile? LOL. Like nothing will probably change in PvE anyways.

 

And NOBODY is asking for the fast hand trait to be replaced by an INSTANT CAST BURST/EVADE/free unblockable. Just a 2% damage increase on weapon swap for 2 seconds could be fine. Or like fury on weapon swap for 2 seconds could be good enough to replace fast hands when weapon switch becomes baseline.

 

You can strawman harder than that. Legit nobody asked for a god tier trait to replace fast hands, and that's what you're worked up about. That's just pathetic. What some of us are trying to accomplish is MAYBE some arms + def + berserker or str + arms + def warrior MIGHT become tolerable to play, and guess what? Those builds wouldn't really be OP.

[sneakytails.5629]

This request for Fast Hands to become baseline has come up before, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Warrior Runes were suggested at that time and immediately dismissed as an alternative. I was a bit skeptical about the dismissal by so many Warriors last time, and I still am today.

 

Base weapon swap is 9 seconds, with Warrior Runes it brings weapon swap down to 7 seconds which puts it close to the Burst cooldown of 8 seconds if you are not running Discipline and getting Versatile Power. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

Warriors with Disipline are getting a faster burst recharge via Versatile Power at 6 3/4 seconds this meshes up well with the Fast Hands Weapon swap of 5 seconds. Also reasonable.

 

There is also nothing stopping a Warrior from using Warrior Runes and the Discipline traitline. This brings weapon swap down to a paltry 3.9 seconds and burst recharge down to 6 3/4 seconds. Where are all the Warriors running this combo? Because its too fast of a cooldown, thats why.

 

Personally I like the Weapon Swap theme of the Disciple traitline and Fast Hands should stay there.

 

There is nothing stopping you from using Warrior Runes which puts your Burst in line with your Weapon Swap when not running Fast Hands.

 

5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> This request for Fast Hands to become baseline has come up before, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Warrior Runes were suggested at that time and immediately dismissed as an alternative. I was a bit skeptical about the dismissal by so many Warriors last time, and I still am today.

>

> Base weapon swap is 9 seconds, with Warrior Runes it brings weapon swap down to 7 seconds which puts it close to the Burst cooldown of 8 seconds if you are not running Discipline and getting Versatile Power. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

>

> Warriors with Disipline are getting a faster burst recharge via Versatile Power at 6 3/4 seconds this meshes up well with the Fast Hands Weapon swap of 5 seconds. Also reasonable.

>

> There is also nothing stopping a Warrior from using Warrior Runes and the Discipline traitline. This brings weapon swap down to a paltry 3.9 seconds and burst recharge down to 6 3/4 seconds. Where are all the Warriors running this combo? Because its too fast of a cooldown, thats why.

>

> Personally I like the Weapon Swap theme of the Disciple traitline and Fast Hands should stay there.

>

> There is nothing stopping you from using Warrior Runes which puts your Burst in line with your Weapon Swap when not running Fast Hands.

>

> 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways.

 

From a PvP perspective:

 

Warrior runes are clunky, you lose out Rune of the Lynx for mobility (If you're not going to use Warrior Sprint, which I'm okay not being baseline but I'm not okay losing mobility as a Melee class with high casting times) if you want to make.a legitimate build. Losing mobility means people are just going to run in a straight line and avoid EVERYTHING you do. Not having mobility is brutal on Warrior dude, it's not THAT easy to play it vs. actual players.

 

And don't say use Signet of Rage, there is no point in picking that over Rampage.

 

It would be easier to just make Fast Hands baseline and then replace it with a non-broken trait on discipline. NOBODY is asking for a potentially catastrophic buff, were trying to increase build diversity and trait combinations in the LEAST catastrophic way as possible.

 

Nothing is wrong about trying to make Berserker/Tactics/Defense or Str + Arms + Defense tolerable to play but not OP for example.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

> >

> > So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

>

> Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

>

> I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

 

How nice that you ignore what I wrote after that because it is inconvenient for your flawed arguments :)

I will post it again and again until you reply to that:

 

I am asking you again and politely: Please tell me exact and precise build, trait/traitline synergy or situation, where the powercreep would prevail.

 

**Important note**

Let's sum this up as simple as possible:

 

You want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality.

Your argument: not big enough reason.

 

I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline.

Your argument: powercreep.

My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc.

Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

 

This is why we are running in cricle. Correct me if this is wrong.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

> > >

> > > So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

> >

> > Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

> >

> > I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

>

>

> **Important note**

> Let's sum this up as simple as possible:

>

> You want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

> My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality.

> Your argument: not big enough reason.

>

 

Like, nobody ASKED for instant cast burst, and evade spam. And these people are worked up. Legit can't fail harder than that. It's disgusting XD

 

Accusing people of "comprehension issues" when they are the ones who don't understand anything, my god the hypocrisy is real.

 

Yes you can play Arms + Def + Berserker gunflame without fast hands, but GIVING it fast hands wouldn't hurt and would be a QoL fix that isn't catastrophic: It does more good than harm.

 

Like that guy man. Jesus XD keep feeding the "against fast hands" argument with 100% garbage arguments, comprehension issues rofl, hypocrite.

[sneakytails.5629]

We live or die by our Bursts (or lack thereof when they are denied) not Weapon Swap ,or Movement Speed. Those are secondary factors not the main one. Stop saying otherwise. Burst is our main mechanic not weapon swap.

 

You want your weapon swap to be close to your burst recharge. You have a 5 second weapon swap if Fast Hands is Baseline and a 8 second Burst recharge when not running Discipline. That's actually clunky.

 

I loose my Warriors Sprint whenever I swap to my Rifle all the time, you get used to it. I dont even run Bulls Charge or GreatSword, you should be using those to close the gaps and using those to start a burst.

 

I would be okay with the Baseline Weapon Swap recharge at 7 seconds (2 seconds faster than non Warriors), close to non disc-burst recharge of 8 seconds. Then 5 second Weapon Swap Fast Hands could still stay in the Discipline tree where it belongs.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

> > >

> > > So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

> >

> > Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

> >

> > I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

>

> How nice that you ignore what I wrote after that because it is inconvenient for your flawed arguments :)

> I will post it again and again until you reply to that:

>

> I am asking you again and politely: Please tell me exact and precise build, trait/traitline synergy or situation, where the powercreep would prevail.

 

The power creep prevails because you're basically giving every warrior build an extra trait. The non-Discipline warriors get FH trait as baseline ... the Discipline warriors get a new trait to replace the now baseline FH trait. Therefore, it's EVERY build.

 

It's really disingenuous to not acknowledge this. Don't worry though ... I don't have a hang up about power creep; I didn't even bring it up, though I can see why people would. My hang up is that the reasons given to change FH to baseline are trivial and not compelling and actually point to the alternate solution that Discipline could be inline for being nerfed ... the parallels to the Vital Persistence event with necro traitline SR are uncanny. But I guess you think ignoring that means it doesn't happen, or can't happen to warrior.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> There is also nothing stopping a Warrior from using Warrior Runes and the Discipline traitline. This brings weapon swap down to a paltry 3.9 seconds and burst recharge down to 6 3/4 seconds. Where are all the Warriors running this combo? Because its too fast of a cooldown, thats why.

> There is nothing stopping you from using Warrior Runes which puts your Burst in line with your Weapon Swap when not running Fast Hands.

> 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways.

 

There is also that thing called sigils which proc on weapon swap (9 second cooldown). Currently, they work flawlessly for 10 second and 5 second weapon swap cd. You can reliably predict when you swap weapons that you get their proc. With swap times shorter than 5 seconds, things will get harder to track. Like when you swap weapons off cooldown twice, you won't get sigil proc. Other thing is that it is just not worth at all. A 4 sec weapon swap (compared to 5 sec weapon swap) is not beneficial at all. Rotations and their fluidity, smoothness won't change at all. It is just not worth. There are much better rune choices.

 

Unless you are spellbreaker, you shouldn't spam your bursts off cooldown right away, but you want to wait to get max adrenaline to deliver highest damage (that depends on specific situations of course). Sometimes you can't even land them as usually warrior uses melee weapons. Same applies for other skills, too.

What matters is how fast you can access weapon skills that are on the other weapon set when they are off cooldown. If you don't spam all your skills off cooldown and leave some for near-future use, 5 second cooldown is that great trait which gives this rotation fluidity and gives warrior ability to adapt to in-combat situations much faster. That is one of the reasons why people take Discipline traitline and why non-Discipline builds don't work that well compared to Discipline builds. Now some ignorant people call this trait overpowered and prefer nerfs to it/whole Discipline traitline. What a time to be alive.

[sneakytails.5629]

Weapon swap should be aligned with Burst not sigils.

 

If you make base Weapon Swap 7 seconds (2 seconds faster) it aligns better with a 8 second burst that non-dics warriors have.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> We live or die by our Bursts (or lack thereof when they are denied) not Weapon Swap ,or Movement Speed. Those are secondary factors not the main one. Stop saying otherwise. Burst is our main mechanic not weapon swap.

>

> You want your weapon swap to be close to your burst recharge. You have a 5 second weapon swap if Fast Hands is Baseline and a 8 second Burst recharge when not running Discipline. That's actually clunky.

>

> I loose my Warriors Sprint whenever I swap to my Rifle all the time, you get used to it. I dont even run Bulls Charge or GreatSword, you should be using those to close the gaps and using those to start a burst.

>

> I would be okay with the Baseline Weapon Swap recharge at 7 seconds (2 seconds faster than non Warriors), close to non disc-burst recharge of 8 seconds. Then 5 second Weapon Swap Fast Hands could still stay in the Discipline tree where it belongs.

>

>

 

Stow weapon/faking out with weapon swap says hi? It won't ALWAYS be at an 8 second cd if you had half a brain on what "high skill cap" Warriors looks like. I will GLADLY get rid of discipline for an STR ARMS DEF eviscerate build. **Fake out potential IS VERY discipline exclusive atm** (You get to fake out Eviscerate more often WITH fast hands, hence it is PIDGEON HOLED into discipline). That is boring and it pidgeonholes Warrior into discipline because a non-discipline build does not have 5 second weapon swap. Do you not understand how Stow weapon, F1, and weapon swaps work? Sometimes you can even use weapon swap to fake people out with Evsiecerate. THAT is what we are trying to make for non-discipline builds as well. But someone who lacks mechanical knowledge is more credible than somebody who actually uses game mechanics as evidence. That would be a GREAT QoL fix to eviscerate builds where people don't want to run discipline all the time.

 

Btw, you still "didn't" provide a legitimate argument against baseline fast hands. Basically your fail argument is "I'm having trouble with the rotations if we were to have baseline fast hands with an 8 second burst because I don't know what Stow weapon is or I don't know what to do within that time period"

 

THAT my friend is a fail argument AGAINST fast hands baseline.

 

You're the only one who has this problem. Good Warriors won't have it, you're probably not a real Warrior main anyways.

 

But say ANET stops listening to fail arguments and we had baseline fast hands. We could be having builds such as (From a PVP perspective):

 

STR ARMS DEF

ARMS DEF ZERKER

STR DEF SB (Which is kinda already a thing to some people)

While still having KEEPING the current builds we already have strong and untouched.

 

All the baseline fast hands people are asking for is build variety. 5 Second weapon swap will ALLOW that because Warrior's skill cap SHOULD be the faking outs with stow and weapon swaps. And your argument that says "your rotation will be messed up if YOU take baseline fast hands without discipline" only works for you, not for other people. **One thing becoming clunky for you does not become CLUNKY for other people, hence why your argument is legitimately FAIL and VERY selfish. And if you think that will be clunky for me, you are DEAD wrong because I will find a way. I'm not some random low theorycrafting Warrior main like someone I know**

 

Next.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

> > > >

> > > > So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

> > >

> > > Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

> > >

> > > I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

> >

> > How nice that you ignore what I wrote after that because it is inconvenient for your flawed arguments :)

> > I will post it again and again until you reply to that:

> >

> > I am asking you again and politely: Please tell me exact and precise build, trait/traitline synergy or situation, where the powercreep would prevail.

>

> The power creep prevails because you're basically giving every warrior build an extra trait. The non-Discipline warriors get FH trait as baseline ... the Discipline warriors get a new trait to replace the now baseline FH trait. Therefore, it's EVERY build.

>

> It's really disingenuous to not acknowledge this.

 

We are equalizing warrior builds. Powercreep is when you buff something already strong to be even stronger and make it overpowered. And as I wrote (which you ignored again), if minor trait is minor enough, Discipline build will not feel any difference (and people playing against it).

It is really disingenuous that you still ignore other parts of my reply that would help us to move forward. You just generalize it because it is easier and more convenient. Or maybe because you are unable to provide us with anything specific?

So again:

 

I am asking you again and politely: Please tell me exact and precise build, trait/traitline synergy or situation, where the powercreep would prevail.

 

**Important note**

Let's sum this up as simple as possible:

 

You want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality.

Your argument: not big enough reason.

 

I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline.

Your argument: powercreep.

My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc.

Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

 

This is why we are running in cricle. Correct me if this is wrong.

[Obtena.7952]

You can argue whatever definition you want on power creep. I could care less what you call it; I see no reason to simply give every warrior build a free trait, then turn around and rally around the idea that it improves diversity or whatever you want to say it does. Warrior, as a class at large, does not need such a thing, just because it's improved or nice. You need a REALLY strong reason to buff warrior as a whole class and I'm just not seeing you tell us what that reason is, other than trivial ones like "it's better" or "it would be nice". It's not just a build or a trait we are talking about ... the WHOLE CLASS is getting a buff with this proposal.

 

Again, many of the arguments you have can lead to concluding Discipline should be nerfed. There is a HUGE problem with any proposal that can make two different people come to completely opposed solutions. I really don't see what circle you think we are running in .. I see you copy and pasting previous posts and not engaging in the discussion ... that just sounds to me like your just continually running into a wall.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> You can argue whatever definition you want on power creep. I could care less what you call it; I see no reason to simply give every warrior build a free trait, then turn around and rally around the idea that it improves diversity or whatever you want to say it does.

>

> You need a REALLY strong reason to buff warrior as a whole class and I'm just not seeing you tell us what that reason is, other than trivial ones like "it's better" or "it would be nice". It's not just a build or a trait we are talking about ... the WHOLE CLASS is getting a buff with this idea.

>

> Again, many of the arguments you have can lead to concluding Discipline should be nerfed, not to buff the whole warrior class. There is a HUGE problem with any proposal that can make two different people come to completely opposed solutions.

 

Not to every warrior build, only to those which are used significantly less, to improve their practicality :)

This week, you learned how important, strong and overpowered Fast Hands and Discipline traitline are. Warrior is now so broken and unkillable. /s

[Obtena.7952]

No, that's incorrect ... it affects EVERY warrior build because FH trait would need to be replaced with something else. I already explained this. Can I just assume you ignore my posts at this point?

 

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No, that's incorrect ... it affects EVERY warrior build because FH trait would need to be replaced with something else. I already explained this. Can I just assume you ignore my posts at this point?

 

"And as I wrote (which you ignored again), if minor trait is minor enough, Discipline build will not feel any difference (and people playing against it)."

 

This was in my 2nd previous post :)

[BlackTruth.6813]

I will re-direct this thread, **clearly responding to people with fail arguments is a waste of time.**

 

I will "argue" against myself and say that (for example) Arms Def Zerker gunflame might become an "evil" build if they implement baseline fast hands

 

**Fake Me**: "Okay, so Arms Def Zerker with gunflame plus baseline fast hands might be OP in sPvP or WvW. Now you get to play Rifle with a DEFENSE spec and now you can probably burst people for a lot of damage while being very survivable. You're basically a Warrior who can burst people from afar and STILL be able to tank point with OP rampage. Why should they make fast hands baseline when this "powercreep" overpowered build might happens? Why should we make Arms Def Zerker gunflame playable when it has so many unblockables and can potentially be anti-fun? 10k unblockables take no skill to land"

 

**Real Me**: From an sPvP perspective, you lose shield? If you take shield with Rifle you lose mobility? Instead of tanking the gunflame, learn to obstruct instead? At the cost of being able to burst people from afar, you also. In order to spam gunflame reliably, you need to use Signet of Fury and the berserker heal. And because there is a lot of block spam that is going on already, you would probably have to use signet of might as well to proc the 2nd signet of might to make gunflame even remote-ly viable. So even with the Defense tree, you would still die within seconds if people played it correctly. If you get rid of the signets, you get block spammed to death without being a real issue and you lack any way to pressure the enemy team. Compared to a STR DEF DISC Warrior, you would have a hard time disengaging fights and holding a point, therefore it would STILL BE balanced because GUNFLAME REQUIRES A LOT OF SACRIFICES ALREADY. Okay, now you get "fake out" potential with Axe + Rifle if you do get the baseline fast hands to mind game cancel eviscerates, NOW you lose mobility and can't really rotate to points and disengage reliably.

 

Also, Soulbeast almost does the same thing but better. We didn't even ask for evade spam, and instant cast, why are you worked up?

 

THIS is how we move the argument, not shutting the discussion down with "8 second burst is clunky for me with a 5 second weapon swap because I'm bad" or it's "redundant and won't change anything anyways" or "ALL THE SUDDEN MY ARGUMENT IS POWERCREEP WHEN MY OTHER PREMISE WAS REDUNDANT (LOL)"

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > No, that's incorrect ... it affects EVERY warrior build because FH trait would need to be replaced with something else. I already explained this. Can I just assume you ignore my posts at this point?

>

> "And as I wrote (which you ignored again), if minor trait is minor enough, Discipline build will not feel any difference (and people playing against it)."

>

> This was in my 2nd previous post :)

 

That's just a dishonest response. You don't know what FH will be replaced with and even if it's minor significance, I'm still right ... EVERY build is impacted by the proposal; it's a class-wide buff. Besides, if it's minor enough, then why is it unreasonable for Anet to consider nerfing it to move Discipline to a more appropriate level so that the other traitlines become more meaningful choices? That argument doesn't go away just because it's a minor trait.

[BlackTruth.6813]

"You don't know what they will replace it with" here is the catch, there is a chance that ANET will not repeat the same mistakes. There is ALWAYS a chance that they will simply replace it with a non-significant trait if baseline fast hands is implemented.

 

The fact that it HASN'T happened yet and you're using that as an excuse to shut down the debate is ridiculous.

 

And before you call somebody dishonest, look at the mirror. "Fast hands baseline is redundant" but in the next sentence "It is actually powercreep with no trade-off" when nobody asked for the replacement trait to be something overpowered and that there is a good chance ANET will replace it with something BALANCED after the mass layoffs.

 

Next.