Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Kiroshima.8497]

Personally, I'd rather they just add the ability to let you have access to both burst skills at all times (new F skill), and using the burst of the weapon not equipped swaps to it, putting both bursts on a global cd (the previous burst has a longer cd so you can't instant swap back without using something like the berserker heal since that recharges burst skills).

 

Then leave fast hands as discipline only still since there's a base warrior alternative.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > if you really believe that on weapon swap trait serious, then i don't know

> > the bait was beyond obvious, and even then it wasn't even a complete lie

>

> So how can I take you serious now? What if this all is just less obvious bait?

 

and since you asked earlier for my tactic-rework

 

 

 

TACTICS TRAITLINE

 

-minor tier 1: determined revival stays as it is

 

-major tier 1: leg specialist will be replaced with the new trait "not on my watch!". when striking a target in stealth, apply lesser "on my mark" on them. 3 seconds reveal, 5 stacks of vulnerability 20 seconds cooldown (untraited)

 

-major tier 1: quick breathing. reduce cooldown on warhorn skills by 2.5% for every unqiue ally around you (cap 10). warhorn skills have an increased number of targets (10)

*the swiftness on charge gets replaced with superspeed (6 seconds) and every second it removes 1 movement impairing condition (cripple, chill, immobilize and torment)

*call to arms now gives vigor for 5 second, removes only 2 conditions (weakness and slow) and inspire allies affected by calls of arms to do +5% dmg for 5 seconds. the blast finnisher and the unblockable stays.

 

-major tier 1: empowered stays as it is +1% dmg per boon (cap 12) is a good trade-off

 

-minor tier 2: revivers might will be replaced with the new trait "i will avenge you!"

upon succesfully reviving an ally, the reviver (warrior) gets an outgoing damage bonus of +10% that will last for 5 seconds. the revived one will get an incomming damage reduction bonus of -10% incomming damage that will last for 5 seconds.

 

-major tier 2: shrug it off will stay, but the required conditions for it to trigger have increased from 1 to 4. to compensate, the shake it off used by this trait will now remove 3 conditions instead of 1. 60 seconds cooldown (untraited)

 

-major tier 2: burning arrows is replaced (more ideal moved to arms traitline) with "rally to the banner" the banner trait that will come over from discipline. 150 stats to group 225 stats to warrior.

 

-major tier 2: quartermaster will fill in the spot of empower allies (that is now reworked in a minor).

quartermaster will give an additional charge to all skills that use the "ammo function" this includes both weapon skills and utility skills(shake it off will have 3 charges,etc etc)

 

-minor tier 3: inspiring pressence: allies around the warrior will fight harder and deal increased damage (+5%) this replaces empower allies(target ally cap of 10)

 

-major tier 3: vigorous shouts has been reworked to "go for the eyes!" allies affected by your shouts (regular shouts or lesser variants) will now do increased critical hit damage on their next attack and inflict blind for 3 seconds (duration to apply both blind/critical hit damage lasts for 3 seconds aswell) (+15% increased critical hit damage) aditionally shouts still gain their 20% reduced cooldowns and will still heal allies affected by them. the "inflict blind will have an internal cooldown of 10 seconds to avoid blind spamming

 

-major tier 3: phalanx strenght. any boon you (the warrior) gives itself, is now shared with allies within a 450 range radius (50% duration for allies, ally cap of 5)

 

-major tier 3: powerful synergy. when making a combo finnisher, get all combo effects (leap,blast,projectile and whirl)

 

 

in case u haven't noticed i made the traitline in 3 paths

 

1) upper path is utility-shout based (not on my watch, shake it off and go for the eyes)

2) middle path is group support based (warhorn, banners, phalanx strenght)

3) bottom path is self enhancement based (empower,quartermaster and powerful synergy)

 

the minor traits aid the warrior in team fights (which they were lacking at). better effects on reviving and enhancing allies around the warrior

 

the new phalanx strenght would be ideal to share resistance, stability and you name it greatly increasing the warrior's usefullness in teamfights

 

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > I'm really not sure why you guys keep trying to reason with cryorion. At this point he just looks like a bad troll -it doesn't matter what you'll say, he'll avoid whatever he wants, twist your words and then claim you said nothing for the past 8 pages of this thread. Personally, I'm done, have fun :D

>

> Honestly, my favourite ending to this movie is where Anet doesn't give everyone FH, then goes and nerfs Discipline because the tryhards made a case for how great it is. Not my favorite because it makes everything awesome, but because it's a great example that shows stubborn people how little they understand about the game.

>

> Frankly, I don't get how the other great example with Necro - Vital Persistence change doesn't already show it to these people but hey ... I guess it's got to happen at a more personal for them to listen. I guess being angry is required to learn something. /shrug

 

You and others ignored parts that are very important (e.g. splitting minor grandmaster trait in Discipline into two parts = no powercreep for Discipline traitline AT ALL, but that directly refutes your claims about Discipline powercreep, so better ignore it, right?). You should read all posts, I don't care at this point. I asked you multiple times to sum things up as simple as possible, but you refused both times. So there is an attempt to simplfy and clear things a bit for better clarity and less confusion.

 

When I ask for precise examples where else would be powercreep in detail, YOU AVOIDED IT EVERY SINGLE TIME. How is this irrelevant, when you and others claim there would be powercreep? How can you claim something without even being able to state proper and precise examples?

Stay ignorant if you wish. If you are unable to come up with specifics as asked, it only shows that you are unable to think about the issue from warrior point of view. And this applies to more people than you ;) There is a reason why I call you ignorant and it is not only because I disagree with your arguments. But better play victim to get some empathy from other ignorant people :)

It is because you are unable to answer certain questions and as an excuse you say that it is "irrelevant". It is not.

 

Edit: Another thing I noticed, if you are so surprised/ just realized, that Discipline and Fast Hands are so strong, that 5 second weapon swap is to game changing for warrior and even propose nerf NOW, that is indicator that you are not that familiar and experienced with the profession enough. How can you refute this?

[Sobx.1758]

AH KITTEN, this is like some kind of a global scale cataclism, I don't want to watch, but I can't look away :grimace:

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Edit: Another thing I noticed, if you are so surprised/ just realized, that Discipline and Fast Hands are so strong, that 5 second weapon swap is to game changing for warrior and even propose nerf NOW, that is indicator that you are not that familiar and experienced with the profession enough. How can you refute this?

 

Just a reminder that I already wrote about it 3 pages ago, but instead of commenting on it, you decided to run away and make a new thread instead:

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/882979/#Comment_882979

*(it seems linking comments on this forum might be kittened up a bit, if it sends you to a bottom of the page, you have to literally press on the URL bar on that page and press enter to be moved directly to the comment, spaghetti code btw)*

 

Nobody ""just discovered FH is so strong"", almost everyone on warrior uses it because everyone knows how strong it is, it seems you're the only one in denial about it -but only when it's convenient for you for the sake of the ""argument"". It's funny because you **know how stupidly strong FH is**, you literally claim that not taking discipline spec is gimping yourself **because of no FH** and then you say that "hey, disci spec isn't just about FH!". Of course it's not, but that's a huge power of it. I think the bottom line here is: stop being a hypocrite.

 

Come to think about it, I'm 99% sure I could answer to almost anything you keep writing by just linking previous posts from this thread alone, because it's just going in circles. Too bad I don't think that's worth the effort :D

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> AH KITTEN, this is like some kind of a global scale cataclism, I don't want to watch, but I can't look away :grimace:

>

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Edit: Another thing I noticed, if you are so surprised/ just realized, that Discipline and Fast Hands are so strong, that 5 second weapon swap is to game changing for warrior and even propose nerf NOW, that is indicator that you are not that familiar and experienced with the profession enough. How can you refute this?

>

> Just a reminder that I already wrote about it 3 pages ago, but instead of commenting on it, you decided to run away and make a new thread instead:

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/882979/#Comment_882979

> *(it seems linking comments on this forum might be kittened up a bit, if it sends you to a bottom of the page, you have to literally press on the URL bar on that page and press enter to be moved directly to the comment, spaghetti code btw)*

>

> Nobody ""just discovered FH is so strong"", almost everyone on warrior uses it because everyone knows how strong it is, it seems you're the only one in denial about it -but only when it's convenient for you for the sake of the ""argument"". It's funny because you **know how stupidly strong FH is**, you literally claim that not taking discipline spec is gimping yourself **because of no FH** and then you say that "hey, disci spec isn't just about FH!". Of course it's not, but that's a huge power of it. I think the bottom line here is: stop being a hypocrite.

>

> Come to think about it, I'm 99% sure I could answer to almost anything you keep writing by just linking previous posts from this thread alone, because it's just going in circles. Too bad I don't think that's worth the effort :D

 

Oh yea, it was after I said I was not going to discuss here anymore, but then threads got merged, I joined again and I didn't look at replies in between that.

I "ran" away to discuss about what you are unable to. What would you do, if you asked someone something, but they would avoid it all the time and even call it irrelevant? That was the point of the different thread.

I will ask you only one thing to make things simpler without making walls of text: Why do you think FH baseline is not good alternative way to improve non-Discipline builds? If possible, please try to sum it up as simple as possible, so I can and will answer as simple as possible, too.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > AH KITTEN, this is like some kind of a global scale cataclism, I don't want to watch, but I can't look away :grimace:

> >

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > Edit: Another thing I noticed, if you are so surprised/ just realized, that Discipline and Fast Hands are so strong, that 5 second weapon swap is to game changing for warrior and even propose nerf NOW, that is indicator that you are not that familiar and experienced with the profession enough. How can you refute this?

> >

> > Just a reminder that I already wrote about it 3 pages ago, but instead of commenting on it, you decided to run away and make a new thread instead:

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/882979/#Comment_882979

> > *(it seems linking comments on this forum might be kittened up a bit, if it sends you to a bottom of the page, you have to literally press on the URL bar on that page and press enter to be moved directly to the comment, spaghetti code btw)*

> >

> > Nobody ""just discovered FH is so strong"", almost everyone on warrior uses it because everyone knows how strong it is, it seems you're the only one in denial about it -but only when it's convenient for you for the sake of the ""argument"". It's funny because you **know how stupidly strong FH is**, you literally claim that not taking discipline spec is gimping yourself **because of no FH** and then you say that "hey, disci spec isn't just about FH!". Of course it's not, but that's a huge power of it. I think the bottom line here is: stop being a hypocrite.

> >

> > Come to think about it, I'm 99% sure I could answer to almost anything you keep writing by just linking previous posts from this thread alone, because it's just going in circles. Too bad I don't think that's worth the effort :D

>

> Oh yea, it was after I said I was not going to discuss here anymore, but then threads got merged, I joined again and I didn't look at replies in between that.

> I "ran" away to discuss about what you are unable to. What would you do, if you asked someone something, but they would avoid it all the time and even call it irrelevant? That was the point of the different thread.

 

That's what you KEEP DOING. Duh, that's literally what you're doing right now. How can you even lack self-awareness so much?

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

>But better play victim to get some empathy from other ignorant people :)

 

Ah, it's also intersting how you read when I tell you to stop playing victim, but refuse to answer to anything I wrote there and then you literally try to use it against others. You must be trolling. :)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Edit: Another thing I noticed, if you are so surprised/ just realized, that Discipline and Fast Hands are so strong, that 5 second weapon swap is to game changing for warrior and even propose nerf NOW, that is indicator that you are not that familiar and experienced with the profession enough. How can you refute this?

 

That doesn't make sense ... Anet came to the **same** conclusion on Necro with Vital Persistence. Game changes are simply about how Anet wants to direct the game, not what some players claim needs to happen because they are 'experienced'. If you continually make the claim that FH is gamechanging for ANY warrior build, your down the path to nerfville.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

 

ill take this challenge if we can call a truce for a bit.

furious burst - reduce cd to 10s.

opportunist - gain 10 adren when gaining fury.

deep strikes - gain 10% damage and condition damage when you have fury.

burst precision - gain 50% increased critical hit chance for bursts and for 5s after a burst (regardless of it landing or not).

 

the burst precision change is kind of lazy but I cant think of any other way of buffing it without changing it altogether. maybe have it so bursts always crit and recharge 50% faster if they fail to hit (basically a buffed versatile power tho so idk).

 

[melandru.3876]

what if:

 

everything burst related goes to strenght

everything weapon swap related goes to discipline

everything supportive related goes to tactics

everything weapon related goes to arms

 

that would mean:

 

arms gets forceful greatsword, axe mastery, etc etc every weapon-trait they could bundle it and call it "master at arms" make it a grandmaster trait that will affect every weapon. like this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Mists

you only get the effect of the weapon (weapons in case of multiple equiped) in use so no more passive ferocity, passive power and the likes. but the benefit would be. more upgraded weapons, and free trait slots to further build out

 

that would make arms the weapon specialisation trait.

-----------------

 

everything burst related to strenght, to make that the raw damage trait (mostly the traits from arms that would move to strenght, and got a slight rework or a merge)

 

------------------------------------------

 

eveything supportive related goes to tactics so banners, warhorns, shouts

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

>

> ill take this challenge if we can call a truce for a bit.

> furious burst - reduce cd to 10s.

> opportunist - gain 10 adren when gaining fury.

> deep strikes - gain 10% damage and condition damage when you have fury.

> burst precision - gain 50% increased critical hit chance for bursts and for 5s after a burst (regardless of it landing or not).

>

> the burst precision change is kind of lazy but I cant think of any other way of buffing it without changing it altogether. maybe have it so bursts always crit and recharge 50% faster if they fail to hit (basically a buffed versatile power tho so idk).

>

 

-Opporunist is just so bad compared to signet mastery you would have to do something drastic, the unblockable is too strong.

-Burst precision - The first idea is going to kill eviscerate/gunflame builds, it's not going to work... don't change it. Would be much better if it stayed as is. 50% crit chance for burst skills AFTER burst is really bad. **Your 2nd idea might be okay,** but then you make Eviscerate/Gunflame near god tier and is ACTUALLY powercreep in a way. Gunflame and Eviscerate are borderline viable and is actually in an okay spot right now. If your 2nd idea is implemented, then Arms simply replaces Strength and is potentially a lot stronger.

-I was thinking of buffing deep strikes as well to 10% condition/10% power damage, but **then it just replaces Strength if I go this route.** Over time, the unblockable became so much more valuable to me (and CAN be more valuable than reckless dodge, reduced rampage) if played right.

-Furious Burst - should've been 5 seconds ICD from the beginning

 

I don't know what to feel tbh, if you just buff Arms or Tactics, then it simply replaces Strength in the current meta.

 

 

Tbh I need to just change the question to.. **how do you incentivize a 9 second weapon swap build at this point.** But it's kinda dumb because this requires an EVEN MORE potentially evil route (Giving Warrior an F2, attack speed increase, instant cast, some stupid garbage that will actually have great potential of ruining the game). This is why it's actually hard to discard fast hands baseline because every other route is LEGIT catastrophic.

 

People are going to get bored eventually if it's just replacing one trait and not replacing into 3 other combinations.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> snips

the reasoning behind opportunist is that it sort of replaces burst mastery. burst precision still gets the 50% for the initial burst, duration probably needs toned down.

anyway I don't disagree with strength being replaced if bad trait lines were buffed. discipline has been too good for so long cuz of the functionality it provides. imo theres gotta be a way to reach a good middle ground with buffing other trait lines, its a tight rope but its possible. I think the best way to do this is to (obviously buff the respective trait lines core philosophy) but also add some of the functionality that discipline provides into other places. for example, a bit of condi management, more adren gain, and possibly making versatile power baseline (not the might gain part) so all bursts have a 6s cd. I think that's the only baseline buff I could agree too.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > snips

> the reasoning behind opportunist is that it sort of replaces burst mastery. burst precision still gets the 50% for the initial burst, duration probably needs toned down.

> anyway I don't disagree with strength being replaced if bad trait lines were buffed. discipline has been too good for so long cuz of the functionality it provides. imo theres gotta be a way to reach a good middle ground with buffing other trait lines, its a tight rope but its possible. I think the best way to do this is to (obviously buff the respective trait lines core philosophy) but also add some of the functionality that discipline provides into other places. for example, a bit of condi management, more adren gain, and possibly making versatile power baseline (not the might gain part) so all bursts have a 6s cd. I think that's the only baseline buff I could agree too.

 

no, just no

 

if you make versatile power baseline (all bursts on 6 skill cooldown) then that could potentially put berserker (warrior elite spec) in a powercreep-position

they could run str/def/berserker or str/arms/berserker or even def/arms/berserker and benefit alot from their f1 burst skills which would be on a 3.25 cd when in berserk (12 sec cd)

 

greatsword + mace/shield (because mace is actually good in berserk, the f1 skullgrinder is miles superior to skull crack) would be in an insanely good spot without

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNApeRnMdAlkideAuhAkigFiA7t4ucruGBgIQPD5EkDeeA-jpBHAB2s/AAHCg5fAA5XGo5TAg4HBAA

 

can you imagine what this build would be capable off? (primal burst skill would be 3.25 sec, not 4 sec if u make it baseline)

that's right without discipline

 

pure cc madness, broken as fock like at hot release when mace/shield + longbow was meta

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> snips

0.75s isn't a big deal. berserker wouldn't be op with this, it needs all the help it can get.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > snips

> 0.75s isn't a big deal. berserker wouldn't be op with this, it needs all the help it can get.

 

incorrect, 0.75s is a very big deal, that means 4 mace bursts in a single berserk

if you are fighting on point, how do you plan on dealing with all that cc? not to forget the condis (most noticably blind) also skullgrinder is a 300 leap, it rarely if ever misses target

mace f1,mace 3, shield 4, rampage, enough sustain, enough dmg

 

they are allready complaining about rampage cc, it will just get worse

 

 

 

berserker isn't as bad as people try to make it look like, it just needs a tiny push to be on par

the main issue atm is: it's in the shadow of both core war, and spb

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> snips

alright, well... the solution is simple. increase berserker bursts cd by a bit.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > snips

> alright, well... the solution is simple. increase berserker bursts cd by a bit.

 

that would then be a massive nerf, as they allready nerfed berserker adrenaline bars to be worth 1 tier instead of 3

if you increase burst cd then it's near impossible to keep 3 stacks of berserker's power/adrenal health

 

it's not that easy to balance it

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> that would then be a massive nerf, as they allready nerfed berserker adrenaline bars to be worth 1 tier instead of 3

> if you increase burst cd then it's near impossible to keep 3 stacks of berserker's power/adrenal health

 

if berserker bursts were increased by 1 sec it would still be possible to do 3 bursts in a single go.

anyway I don't want to argue these minor details any longer so have at it sir.

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > if you really believe that on weapon swap trait serious, then i don't know

> > > the bait was beyond obvious, and even then it wasn't even a complete lie

> >

> -major tier 3: vigorous shouts has been reworked to "go for the eyes!" allies affected by your shouts (regular shouts or lesser variants) will now do increased critical hit damage on their next attack and inflict blind for 3 seconds (duration to apply both blind/critical hit damage lasts for 3 seconds aswell) (+15% increased critical hit damage) aditionally shouts still gain their 20% reduced cooldowns and will still heal allies affected by them. the "inflict blind will have an internal cooldown of 10 seconds to avoid blind spamming

>

 

This is potentially catastrophic. Blind spam is stupid, I don't know how you can't call this powercreep when there will be no point in slow builds.

 

10 Seconds of internal cool down but potentially able to affect 5 people is still blind spam plus it heals? Burst should counter shouts, but then blind spam potentially makes it harder.

 

Basically making high casting time builds pointless IS a form of powercreep that is evil.

 

Also shake it off with 3 charges lol... the game needs LESS stun breaks, not more. Also... sanctuary runes going to be disgusting if shouts get 3 charges.

 

Tactics can be actually aids if not careful.