Loading.4503 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I take discipline for just fast hands, your argument is flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds). > > Then the argument from the OP that FH should be baseline because of more 'fluid' play is also flawed, because any arguments based on 'fluid' play are related to CD's and rotations, not build variety. > > Put it this way ... if swapping weapons isn't about affecting rotations and the 'feel' of faster play, then this is simply a thinly veiled attempt to get access to on swap procs. > > I'm still not seeing the 'build diversity' argument either ... because I can say for a fact that no one is taking Discipline ONLY because of FH. Even if they nerfed FH into the ground OR made it baseline, people would STILL take Discipline. If you REALLY want to go into a build diversity argument, Anet is going to have to nerf more than just FH to make people think what else they should choose. Chesus... why do you generalize what I say again? I said that 10 second weapon swap is what makes warrior rotations less smooth, less fluid, and also reacting to situations worse compared to 5 seconds weapon swap cd. The flawed argument is: "... I'm not even sure it's that significant because most weapon skill CD's are much longer than 5 seconds, or even the 9 seconds from regular swap rate.", because even if some skills have cd longer than 10 seconds, it doesn't mean people spam them off cooldown and they are not ready when you swap to another weapon set after 5 seconds. This is what I mentioned before as micro-rotations. This doesn't lead anywhere. You don't want to discuss balance point of view of FH being baseline, you just discuss mentality of wanting this change. When people want buffs, it is ALWAYS because they want something to be better, more useful, less useless, more fun, less annoying, more enjoyable, stronger, viable. The whole change is not crucial or essential for warrior to be playable, warrior is not broken in terms of not working. But that is partially thanks to Fast Hands and Discipline traitline. If you don't think that 5 second weapon swap is part of warrior's class identity, mechanics, improved rotations and performance, then you should play the class more to get better experience. Once again, the whole point of this all is to make non-Discipline builds more useful, practical, responsive to situations. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds). > > Then the argument from the OP that FH should be baseline because of more 'fluid' play is also flawed, because any arguments based on 'fluid' play are related to CD's and rotations, not build variety. > > Put it this way ... if swapping weapons isn't about affecting rotations and the 'feel' of faster play, then this is simply a thinly veiled attempt to get access to on swap procs. > > I'm still not seeing the 'build diversity' argument either ... because I can say for a fact that no one is taking Discipline ONLY because of FH. Even if they nerfed FH into the ground OR made it baseline, people would STILL take Discipline. If you REALLY want to go into a build diversity argument, Anet is going to have to nerf more than just FH to make people think what else they should choose. Gunflame Arms Defense Berserker + Rune of the Lynx? You can call it a garbage build, but at least it will be playable with baseline fast hands. Being able to reliably play gunflame with defense tree at the cost of having lower damage (because you get rid of discipline and rune of the scholar) would be nice to have for once. If THAT isn't build variety then that's just lacking common sense because it's not ABOUT making a Warrior OP build, it should just be a different combination that might affect the playstyle. Also? None of your arguments really favor "don't put in baseline fasthands" either because the "redundant" argument is also bad because DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS become tolerable to play but not OP. And the fact that you never provided any "OP" builds that will come out because of fast hands becoming baseline. There is no reason to not have baseline fast hands. Literally, there is nothing bad that will happen if you make fast hands baseline.. It won't change the "already strong builds" and that baseline fast hands + Arms Defense Berserker gunflame build (as a hypothetical example of what build variety might come out) won't really do enough damage to be OP, but might be survivable enough to be useful. But keep saying "ANET shouldn't add baseline fast hands" though, I'm 100% sure you don't have any REAL arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take > > It would change things. That is why we want it. It wouldn't cause huge balance outbreak as some people think (because as you posted, non-Discipline builds will still miss all other Discipline traits). It is just that one of the biggest reasons why non-Discipline builds are not very used/prefered/enjoyed (overall in all game modes) is because warrior just functions much better with 5 sec instead of 10 sec weapon CD. > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds). ok, say fast hands got baseline and you are now free to take another traitline. 1) will you run defense instead of discipline in raids/fracs now? offcourse you won't 2) will you run arms now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't 3) will you run berserker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't 4) will you run spellbreaker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? ONLY in no pain no gain intsbas. as is allready the case. this is purely from a pve point of view, and i doubt it's any different from pvp. -arms? still crap for pvp -berserker? still crap for pvp -tactics? still crap for pvp only valid build that i would see myself using is strenght-defense-spellbreaker which is probably the build you play hence you want fast hands so bad. is a nerf to something that becomes baseline (nothing comes for free) worth it, to improve YOUR one build, without discipline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > If Anet ever nerfs Fast Hands, you will see the outrage. Imagine if Anet nerfed ranger's pet swapping cooldown, elementalist's attunment cd, revenant's legend swap cd, engineer's kit would have cooldown on picking kit and then droppping it, thief would get initiative regeneration nerfed, etc. Weapon swap CD nerf would affect warrior in very similar way. > Oh! I imagine easily, something like ANet removing necromancer's shroud CD reduction for example. Something like removing _lingering attunment_ for elementalist. Minions getting permanent health degen instead of a fixed duration... etc. ANet proved more than often that they are able to nerf effect that pidgeonhole some profession into a specific traitline. > Ranger has different class mechanics and utility on their weapons are more tailored around 10 second weapon cooldown. Also, ranger never had any weapon swap cooldown reduction related traits since beginning of the game. Another thing to point out is how hard is to kite warrior and ranger (of course it depends on exact builds and weapons used, but in general, it is easier to kite warrior than ranger). As full melee, warrior benefits from 5 seconds weapon swap much more. > Ranger have as much weapon wap trait related than the warrior, which make the mechanism as important for him than it is for the warrior. The issue isn't that it is a trait, it is the fact that you see this trait as mandatory. It mean that you've grown accustomed to it to such an extent that you can't imagine playing without it and thus limit you. And if a trait limit their players, I doubt that ANet answer will be: "let's make it baseline!". Otherwise, why not make elementalist's attunment linger for a few second after they switch? Why not just reduce necromancer's shroud CD? Why not give 3 more initiative point to the thief baseline? Why not make baseline the trait that make virtue of justice renewed when you kill a foe?... etc. > "The most hilarious that could happen would be ANet replacing the trait by something else and releasing an e-spec which would have the 5 seconds weaponswap CD as it's special feature." > That wouldn't be surprising at all, but it would be too noticable, gimping whole class to sell out new elite specs. Traits matters but when they become to strong it's time to remove them not to make them baseline. You see what I said in a dark light because you can't picture the warrior viable without _fast hand_ which in itself is a false assomption. _Discipline_ is a traitline oriented toward building adrenaline and swaping weapon is/was a convenient way for anet to achieve this feat for the warrior. However it doesn't mean that they can't look into different ways to achieve the same result (they may replace the "weaponswap codeline" by a "dodge codeline" or a "on using movement skill codeline" or whatever. Almost all professions have a weaponswap, warrior just happen to be the one that got the weaponswap CD reduction trait, that's all. This trait isn't a "core mechanism" of the warrior, it is a "trait" and as such allow the warrior to build toward a specific direction. The fact that this specific direction is the one that perform the best for the current warrior doesn't mean in any way that it should be made baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take > > > > It would change things. That is why we want it. It wouldn't cause huge balance outbreak as some people think (because as you posted, non-Discipline builds will still miss all other Discipline traits). It is just that one of the biggest reasons why non-Discipline builds are not very used/prefered/enjoyed (overall in all game modes) is because warrior just functions much better with 5 sec instead of 10 sec weapon CD. > > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds). > > ok, say fast hands got baseline and you are now free to take another traitline. > > 1) will you run defense instead of discipline in raids/fracs now? offcourse you won't > 2) will you run arms now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't > 3) will you run berserker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't > > 4) will you run spellbreaker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? ONLY in no pain no gain intsbas. as is allready the case. > > this is purely from a pve point of view, and i doubt it's any different from pvp. > > -arms? still kitten for pvp > -berserker? still kitten for pvp > -tactics? still kitten for pvp > > only valid build that i would see myself using is strenght-defense-spellbreaker which is probably the build you play hence you want fast hands so bad. > > is a nerf to something that becomes baseline (nothing comes for free) worth it, to improve YOUR one build, without discipline? These are absolute garbage arguments against baseline fast hands. So you'd rather have them make those specific traitlines broken then? Instead of an EASY fix yet non-broken fix? Okay how about we make Berserker's F1 unblockable, tactics shouts start healing 2ks without healing power, give arms the 100% crit on burst skill a baseline grandmaster MINOR TRAIT. Is that what you want? Broken garbage ass fixes? Also GL playing without Arms vs. block spammers such as scrapper/firebrand/guardian in PvP. Not a complete garbage tree when you have people who actually have any brain on what theorycrafting is and what "build variety" means. Arms needs a small push, not a giant buff that you are implying AND it might actually become a good trait line with baseline fast hands. It must be hard to understand that the unblockable signet makes it so that you only need to count dodges instead of paying attention to Aegis/block spam in PvP, like god the lack of common sense is disgusting. And it Arms with baseline fast hands wouldn't even be brokenly OP. STR Arms Def Core Arms Def Berserker With baseline fast hands, those builds might work AND in a non-broken state. We don't need broken powercreep anymore, we need CHANGE that will not break the game. Better that we have a Warrior update that doesn't affect the top builds but allow HORIZONTAL progression. Something that you people are disgustingly against without any real arguments. Call it redundant, call it worthless, but at least it isn't OP and annoying to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > > imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take > > > > > > It would change things. That is why we want it. It wouldn't cause huge balance outbreak as some people think (because as you posted, non-Discipline builds will still miss all other Discipline traits). It is just that one of the biggest reasons why non-Discipline builds are not very used/prefered/enjoyed (overall in all game modes) is because warrior just functions much better with 5 sec instead of 10 sec weapon CD. > > > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds). > > > > ok, say fast hands got baseline and you are now free to take another traitline. > > > > 1) will you run defense instead of discipline in raids/fracs now? offcourse you won't > > 2) will you run arms now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't > > 3) will you run berserker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't > > > > 4) will you run spellbreaker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? ONLY in no pain no gain intsbas. as is allready the case. > > > > this is purely from a pve point of view, and i doubt it's any different from pvp. > > > > -arms? still kitten for pvp > > -berserker? still kitten for pvp > > -tactics? still kitten for pvp > > > > only valid build that i would see myself using is strenght-defense-spellbreaker which is probably the build you play hence you want fast hands so bad. > > > > is a nerf to something that becomes baseline (nothing comes for free) worth it, to improve YOUR one build, without discipline? > > These are absolute garbage arguments against baseline fast hands. > > So you'd rather have them make those specific traitlines broken then? Instead of an EASY fix yet non-broken fix? > > Okay how about we make Berserker's F1 unblockable, tactics shouts start healing 2ks without healing power, give arms the 100% crit on burst skill a baseline grandmaster MINOR TRAIT. Is that what you want? Broken garbage kitten fixes? > > Also GL playing without Arms vs. block spammers such as scrapper/firebrand/guardian in PvP. Not a complete garbage tree when you have people who actually have any brain on what theorycrafting is and what "build variety" means. Arms needs a small push, not a giant buff that you are implying AND it might actually become a good trait line with baseline fast hands. It must be hard to understand that the unblockable signet makes it so that you only need to count dodges instead of paying attention to Aegis/block spam in PvP, like god the lack of common sense is disgusting. And it Arms with baseline fast hands wouldn't even be brokenly OP. > > STR Arms Def Core > Arms Def Berserker > > With baseline fast hands, those builds might work AND in a non-broken state. > > We don't need broken powercreep anymore, we need CHANGE that will not break the game. > > Better that we have a Warrior update that doesn't affect the top builds but allow HORIZONTAL progression. Something that you people are disgustingly against without any real arguments. Call it redundant, call it worthless, but at least it isn't OP and annoying to deal with. i see you in every thread with your "gunflame" build its a troll build that works vs new players, nothing else my arguments are garbage because they are not yours, that should be the tldr like not trying to make fun off you, but i have yet to see the first arms warrior in plat 2. arms, is a joke traitline and will allways be. edit: hold on i take everything back!! arms is the best.....for gathering, thank god we have dual wielding to speed up gathering animations aswell, maybe i need to report this "bug" and see the only useful thing arms has, get fixed since you were all about "fixing" i just read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 And no, it's not just making "arms" work even though, as I've said before, it's ACTUALLY an okay traitline that needs a small push. Strength + Tactics + Defense Berserker + Tactics + Defense might be interesting Yeah, call them useless, but some people might enjoy them? That's the whole point is to have fun with builds without being annoyingly OP? Literally the least evil patch that they can give to Warrior is by making weapon swaps baseline 5 seconds. And just because you "don't see" the build variety that might come out and you might see "baseline fast hands" as Arms and Tactics still being useless, THAT isn't a reason for ANET to not consider baseline fast hands. That is a garbage reason and you literally wasted your time when you specifically implied it "won't really change anything" at least in YOUR eyes. Literally you keep using discipline, go ahead. But some people will get bored enough to find other builds that don't involve it. Just because YOU don't feel like finding a build that might work without discipline, that is a FAIL REASON to say that baseline fast hands should not be in the game. The ONLY time that baseline fast hands should not be in the game if there will be an OP build that will come out of it, name me one? You can't. And "redundant" is a fail reason because THERE WILL BE PEOPLE who might want to try playing without discipline (It IS possible but baseline fast hands would be the biggest oomph that won't break the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > And no, it's not just making "arms" work even though, as I've said before, it's ACTUALLY an okay traitline that needs a small push. > > Strength + Tactics + Defense > > Berserker + Tactics + Defense might be interesting > > Yeah, call them useless, but some people might enjoy them? That's the whole point is to have fun with builds without being annoyingly OP? > > Literally the least evil patch that they can give to Warrior is by making weapon swaps baseline 5 seconds. > > And just because you "don't see" the build variety that might come out and you might see "baseline fast hands" as Arms and Tactics still being useless, THAT isn't a reason for ANET to not consider baseline fast hands. That is a garbage reason and you literally wasted your time when you specifically implied it "won't really change anything" at least in YOUR eyes. Literally you keep using discipline, go ahead. But some people will get bored enough to find other builds that don't involve it. Just because YOU don't feel like finding a build that might work without discipline, that is a FAIL REASON to say that baseline fast hands should not be in the game. > > The ONLY time that baseline fast hands should not be in the game if there will be an OP build that will come out of it, name me one? You can't. And "redundant" is a fail reason because THERE WILL BE PEOPLE who might want to try playing without discipline (It IS possible but baseline fast hands would be the biggest oomph that won't break the game). > tldr , my way or the highway making fast hands baseline and people not wanting to use discipline again -condi bannerslave/condi berserkers not able to spam longbow f1 anymore..bye bye dps -core war running without discipline, no more axe mastery..bye bye dps -spellbreaker as i allready said, runs without discipline ONLY if no pain no gain frac. having no fast hands is of zero issue in that case or please show me all the threads "i need to strip boons/cc because i can't without fast hands" what other build, that is not your gunflame build, would benefit in pve? none,look above and yes "some people might enjoy it" same with the rifle wars, longbow rangers that apply to my groups. i wish them all the best, and even politly inform them when the next world boss is up before i kick them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Almost all professions have a weaponswap, warrior just happen to be the one that got the weaponswap CD reduction trait, that's all. This trait isn't a "core mechanism" of the warrior, it is a "trait" and as such allow the warrior to build toward a specific direction. The fact that this specific direction is the one that perform the best for the current warrior doesn't mean in any way that it should be made baseline. A 5 second weapon swap is part of warrior mechanism. Without it, the adrenaline and bursts usage are limited, rotations and APM is limited, combat adaptation is limited. It is not only that we are used to this for many years. It is also that builds without Fast Hands are significantly worse to play in unpredictable situations. You would know that if you played both Discipline and non-Discipline builds and was aware of the difference. You are just being ignorant (same as Obtena) and propose nerf instead without truly realizing how impactful it would be. What about the other way around? As some people here noted, most people would probably still stick to Discipline builds because Discipline traitline has other very useful traits. BUT the whole thing is about making other builds to be more usable. Some builds simply can't work well without faster weaponswap. Let me ask you a question unrelated to this thread and the issue: Why is it that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, competetive with Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Elementalist, Soulbeast, Chronomancer, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 This is totaly crazy idea. Since as a suppirt chrono I have to play inspiration for improved signet of inspiration then anet shpuld make it base version so i can have diferent traitline (and have more then 20k dps as a support chrono) Or since i play weaver all the time (and not core or tempest) then just make weaver new base ele so i can take "4th" traitline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 This is totaly crazy idea. Since as a suppirt chrono I have to play inspiration for improved signet of inspiration then anet shpuld make it base version so i can have diferent traitline (and have more then 20k dps as a support chrono) Or since i play weaver all the time (and not core or tempest) then just make weaver new base ele so i can take "4th" traitline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > tldr , my way or the highway > > making fast hands baseline and people not wanting to use discipline again > > -condi bannerslave/condi berserkers not able to spam longbow f1 anymore..bye bye dps > -core war running without discipline, no more axe mastery..bye bye dps > -spellbreaker as i allready said, runs without discipline ONLY if no pain no gain frac. having no fast hands is of zero issue in that case or please show me all the threads "i need to strip boons/cc because i can't without fast hands" > > what other build, that is not your gunflame build, would benefit in pve? none,look above > > and yes "some people might enjoy it" same with the rifle wars, longbow rangers that apply to my groups. i wish them all the best, and even politly inform them when the next world boss is up before i kick them People would still play Discipline builds. Reason? Versatile Rage, Warrior's Sprint, Doubled Standards/Brawler's Recovery, Versatile Power, Axe Mastery/Burst Mastery. Fast Hands being baseline would mostly affect PvP/WvW and group support/utility oriented builds. Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to swap weapons faster and adapt/react to things faster? Would it be game breaking? Balance destroying? If yes, feel free to explain, how. For PvE, Banner Boonbreaker build is much enjoyable to play with FH, mace/mace + axe/axe with 5 second cooldown works very well. You wouldn't be stuck on mace/mace, when the breakbar is broken and everyone bursts the boss. But nowadays, chronos/renegades take care of boons because core warrior is just that much better overall (better CC, better dps) and bubble was gutted in PvE in latest balance patch. Another PvE build that could work much better would be Strength, Arms, Spellbreaker. Yes, it contradicts in a way that Spellbreaker doesn't use Discipline traitline with other traits (like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, etc), but the gain from Signet Mastery trait (Signet of Ferocity bonus) and Sundering Burst trait is that impactful, especially when soloing stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > Almost all professions have a weaponswap, warrior just happen to be the one that got the weaponswap CD reduction trait, that's all. This trait isn't a "core mechanism" of the warrior, it is a "trait" and as such allow the warrior to build toward a specific direction. The fact that this specific direction is the one that perform the best for the current warrior doesn't mean in any way that it should be made baseline. > > A 5 second weapon swap is part of warrior mechanism. Without it, the adrenaline and bursts usage are limited, rotations and APM is limited, combat adaptation is limited. It is not only that we are used to this for many years. It is also that builds without Fast Hands are significantly worse to play in unpredictable situations. > You would know that if you played both Discipline and non-Discipline builds and was aware of the difference. You are just being ignorant (same as Obtena) and propose nerf instead without truly realizing how impactful it would be. What about the other way around? As some people here noted, most people would probably still stick to Discipline builds because Discipline traitline has other very useful traits. BUT the whole thing is about making other builds to be more usable. Some builds simply can't work well without faster weaponswap. > > Let me ask you a question unrelated to this thread and the issue: Why is it that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, competetive with Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Elementalist, Soulbeast, Chronomancer, etc? Well granted that warrior is not the one with the worst power dps potential what exactly are you trying to prove with this question? Especially why is it related to _fast hand_? Thought, I can entertain and answer: Warrior does have high passive/active offensive support while being able to dish out an average amount of dps. The fact that it is "offensive support" make it mandatory to take for dps build and thus in order to "balance" damage/utility it can be seen as natural that warrior don't have exceptionnal dps on par with the top dps that sacrifice everything to dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > But keep saying "ANET shouldn't add baseline fast hands" though, I'm 100% sure you don't have any REAL arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the game Well, I haven't seen a good reason presented for Anet to do it yet. Again, the burden of proof isn't on justifying the current implementation. That simply doesn't make sense. "Because it wouldn't hurt to do" or "it would be nice" isn't a compelling reason for Anet to do all the work required to not only make FH baseline, but to backfill the now empty trait spot. You people need to think a little more about why this needs to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 yeah lol the argument saying "well this is so good I cant live without it so give it to everyone for free" is nonsensical. you pay for water. you pay for electricity. if these floodgates were opened, then every player in the game would riot for their main classes own freebies. if anything, buff bad trait lines. making things baseline adds a lot more power creep than it does diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > And if you don't see that giving a fast hands trait as an inherent class passive is a straight up buff to the whole class then I'm not sure what to tell you. > > There you go. You said that FH would be straight up buff to whole class, which is true. I know what I said that's why I don't understand your previous answer, which made no sense and completely disregarded what I said before. >And it is actually what we want. I was just pointing out that it is pretty obvious, what else do you think making FH baseline is going to do (thus I wrote "nerfing or fixing warrior?")? wow, no shit that's what you want, who would have thought. Pulling out the most use trait out of the tree and making it baseline so you don't have to make any compromises anymore, that's super logical! (to be 100% clear: no, it's not. Your argument "we should do it because it's good" is still just a pile of nonsense disregarding pretty much everything there is about balancing concept) I still don't see in what world asking me: >Do you think that making FH baseline is... nerfing or fixing warrior? after I repeatedly wrote it's a huge buff to the whole class makes any sense. Because it doesn't and just sounds like a suggestion that I don't know it would be a buff. Which -and I'm getting tired of repeating that- is very obviously wrong. >The change is obviously huge QoL for all non-Discipline builds And -AGAIN- that's not a "QoL change", it's a huge buff. Two different things. > It is very interesting to see, how some people are suddenly vocal about warriors wanting Fast Hands baseline. No, people playing a class wanting huge undeserved buffs to the said class is not "new". Not here and not in any other class' subforum. It happens everywhere and what's interesting is that people don't understand (or don't want to understand?) that if "it's so good that it's getting picked over anything else" then pulling it as an inherent class passive is the last thing that should be done. But hey, fuck logic right? > I am still waiting for exact examples of builds, traitline/trait combinations that you think would be too strong/broken with FH baseline. You should be able to provide some (if there are any) by yourself if you are skilled enough and know what you are talking about. You might want to reread the thread, buddy. > I already wrote why FH should be baseline (passive), but as I want you to understand it correctly here we go again: the main reason why make Fast Hands baseline is to improve non-Discipline builds and make them more practical and responsive to situations. Pulling it out of the discipline builds is an illogical way to go about it that -hey, I'll write it again until you stop pretending you can't see it- and denies every rule of balancing games/builds/classes/etc. Faster weapon swap is tied to that spec for a reason and if anything, the spec could be nerfed. Also cutting the swap time in half would "improve any class/build and make them more practical and responsive to situations". Because it's strong as fuck. Not just forr warrior. Not just for specific builds. But, AGAIN, keep pretending you don't know that (because if you're not even pretending and ACTUALLY believe what you're writing then it's just sad). > I have great question for you: Why is it that Discipline builds are played WAY MORE than non-Discipline builds (especially PvP/WvW)? Is it because Fast Hands are too strong? Or is it because warrior functions much better with 5 seconds weapon swap cooldown? To add, other Discipline traits just add even more "QoL" when it comes to managing and spending adrenaline, clearing conditions, etc. Is it really a "great question"? Is it even a serious question? wtf. The answerr to that is so obvious that it hurts that you think it's some "cluch argument" that can catch anyone offguard and you write like you believe it is, huh. It's **EXACTLY** because it's so strong, give that trait to almost **ANY** class and they'll shit themselves from happiness. I already wrote why, but I guess you like when people repeat stuff to you. It's especially strong in pvp/wvw builds, because that's where you throw your raid rotations out of the window and start **responding to what people do**. Which means you don't need or even want to use all your skills off cooldown and **not being locked out of a skillset for 10 seconds** helps with that. And of course "warrior functions much better with 5 second weapon swap cooldown", due to how the game works **any other class with weapon swap would function better**. I already wrote about that, how many times do you want me to repeat it while you ask the questions I already answered? Seriously, am I getting failtrolled right now? And -**again**- you don't understand what "QoL" is. >You should play and feel both Discipline and non-Discipline builds in WvW/PvP to see how drastic the difference is. No, s/he shouldn't, anyone who understands how this game works (even at the very basic level) understands how stupidly strong that trait is and it would be just as strong for other classes. The fact that you fail to understand that and try to """prove""" (like there's any need for that <.< ) to people that it's so unbelievably strong is just baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > "Because it wouldn't hurt to do" or "it would be nice" isn't a compelling reason for Anet to do all the work required to not only make FH baseline, but to backfill the now empty trait spot. You people need to think a little more about why this needs to happen. This way, there is literally no reason to improve anything in this game. If improving underwhelming/useless builds to be more useful and practical is not big enough reason to make them better, then there is no valid reason you will be satisfied with ever. Your arguments do not come from experience with the class, but rather from being convinced that "people who want something to be better, want it to be better just beacuse and they are wrong". We already mentioned reasons (in more detail than just simplified "to be better"). I really think that lack of class knowledge and not realizing how this change would have impact on the class itself is the main reason why you are unable to focus more on balance point of view instead of reasons why to implement such change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > tldr , my way or the highway > > > > making fast hands baseline and people not wanting to use discipline again > > > > -condi bannerslave/condi berserkers not able to spam longbow f1 anymore..bye bye dps > > -core war running without discipline, no more axe mastery..bye bye dps > > -spellbreaker as i allready said, runs without discipline ONLY if no pain no gain frac. having no fast hands is of zero issue in that case or please show me all the threads "i need to strip boons/cc because i can't without fast hands" > > > > what other build, that is not your gunflame build, would benefit in pve? none,look above > > > > and yes "some people might enjoy it" same with the rifle wars, longbow rangers that apply to my groups. i wish them all the best, and even politly inform them when the next world boss is up before i kick them > > People would still play Discipline builds. Reason? Versatile Rage, Warrior's Sprint, Doubled Standards/Brawler's Recovery, Versatile Power, Axe Mastery/Burst Mastery. > Fast Hands being baseline would mostly affect PvP/WvW and group support/utility oriented builds. > Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to swap weapons faster and adapt/react to things faster? Would it be game breaking? Balance destroying? If yes, feel free to explain, how. > > For PvE, Banner Boonbreaker build is much enjoyable to play with FH, mace/mace + axe/axe with 5 second cooldown works very well. You wouldn't be stuck on mace/mace, when the breakbar is broken and everyone bursts the boss. But nowadays, chronos/renegades take care of boons because core warrior is just that much better overall (better CC, better dps) and bubble was gutted in PvE in latest balance patch. > Another PvE build that could work much better would be Strength, Arms, Spellbreaker. Yes, it contradicts in a way that Spellbreaker doesn't use Discipline traitline with other traits (like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, etc), but the gain from Signet Mastery trait (Signet of Ferocity bonus) and Sundering Burst trait is that impactful, especially when soloing stuff. thanks for proving my point. making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up so nothing changes. -arms is still kitten in all but condi,or condi banner builds..highly situational -berserker is still kitten in all but condi banner build...highly situational -defense is kitten in pve, lost its glory in pvp and is used in core war wvw roamer WITH discipline and strenght spellbreaker is only useful in 3 certain gamemodes 1) wvw zerg fights (because for soloroaming core war is superior) and the zerg build allready uses discipline https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_DPS_Spellbreaker 2) pvp tetherbreaker(sword or dagger you decide) build that is not yet meta, but certainly in a good spot (and yes, those builds uses discipline so nothing changes) https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Strength_Dagger https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Tetherbreaker 3) no pain no gain fractal spellbreaker https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave_(Fractal) which is the only build that would benef it, as i allready sayd 3 times the only build without discipline, and still very good at it's role with zero complaints "i can't cc/boonstrip because weaponswap 9 seconds" what other build, do you and that gunflame-dude have in mind that would benefit oh so much from baseline fasthands? because i fail to find any and i have only 4540 hours played on warrior. what you ask for is a straight up buff to warrior, by giving it a a new trait, and that will come at the cost of nerfing something else (rampage dmg/cd) (magebane tether might stacks/dmg buff) so no, lets not listen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > "Because it wouldn't hurt to do" or "it would be nice" isn't a compelling reason for Anet to do all the work required to not only make FH baseline, but to backfill the now empty trait spot. You people need to think a little more about why this needs to happen. > > This way, there is literally no reason to improve anything in this game. If improving underwhelming/useless builds to be more useful and practical is not big enough reason to make them better, then there is no valid reason you will be satisfied with ever. Your arguments do not come from experience with the class, but rather from being convinced that "people who want something to be better, want it to be better just beacuse and they are wrong". We already mentioned reasons (in more detail than just simplified "to be better"). I really think that lack of class knowledge and not realizing how this change would have impact on the class itself is the main reason why you are unable to focus more on balance point of view instead of reasons why to implement such change. That doesn't make sense. Anet changes things in the game because they have reason to ... not trivial ideas about how nice it would be or just because it's better. They have actual reasons; they have told us what they are for lots of changes many times. If you can't think of any non-trivial reasons to make FH baseline, then what makes you think Anet will take the idea seriously? There isn't anything underwhelming or useless about builds that don't use Discipline. Again, I'm just repeat it: If Discipline and FH are SO GOOD, that everything other choice pales in comparison to it, then that's an indication they need a **massive nerf**, not a global baseline buff for the class. You better be REALLY careful about how you present your ideas about this topic if you want to push for positive changes. It's absolutely ridiculous to say Anet should take the awesome things from a trait line and make them baseline because they are so good, nothing else is meaningful as a choice, for whatever reason you could think up. You are literally asking for OP'ed things to be made baseline. Give your head a shake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > "Because it wouldn't hurt to do" or "it would be nice" isn't a compelling reason for Anet to do all the work required to not only make FH baseline, but to backfill the now empty trait spot. You people need to think a little more about why this needs to happen. This way, there is literally no reason to improve anything in this game. If improving underwhelming/useless builds to be more useful and practical is not big enough reason to make them better, then there is no valid reason you will be satisfied with ever. Your arguments do not come from experience with the class, but rather from being convinced that "people who want something to be better, want it to be better just beacuse and they are wrong". We already mentioned reasons (in more detail than just simplified "to be better"). I really think that lack of class knowledge and not realizing how this change would have impact on the class itself is the main reason why you are unable to focus more on balance point of view instead of reasons why to implement such change. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > Let me ask you a question unrelated to this thread and the issue: Why is it that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, competetive with Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Elementalist, Soulbeast, Chronomancer, etc? > > Well granted that warrior is not the one with the worst power dps potential what exactly are you trying to prove with this question? Especially why is it related to _fast hand_? > > Thought, I can entertain and answer: Warrior does have high passive/active offensive support while being able to dish out an average amount of dps. The fact that it is "offensive support" make it mandatory to take for dps build and thus in order to "balance" damage/utility it can be seen as natural that warrior don't have exceptionnal dps on par with the top dps that sacrifice everything to dps. I mentioned the question is not related to this thread and the issue. It was just to see your way of argumenting. I asked if warrior has proper power DPS build that would be competetive with other proper DPS builds. You replied with adding other parts of class into it, basically that warrior has build that is already in game and is meta ("passive/active offensive support while being able to dish out an average amount of dps" and that "it is mandatory to take for dps build"). Instead of admitting that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, you chose to argument around what warrior is already strong at. Explain then, how that isn't an implication of "warrior does not need proper power DPS build". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > yeah lol the argument saying "well this is so good I cant live without it so give it to everyone for free" is nonsensical. you pay for water. you pay for electricity. if these floodgates were opened, then every player in the game would riot for their main classes own freebies. if anything, buff bad trait lines. making things baseline adds a lot more power creep than it does diversity. That's just it though, it's not that good without discipline, it would just be a nice to have. Professions have received MUCH **MUCH** stronger buffs in the past. From the way some people are responding to this thread you would think I'm arguing to have a quest to murder baby quagans or something. It wouldn't make warrior any harder to fight in PvP/WvW and it wouldn't increase their DPS by 100k in PvE. It would be a freebie as in a profession mechanic, just like how every other profession has their own profession mechanics. The only unique profession mechanic warrior has is an extra skill per weapon set which is pathetic in comparison to the built in tools other have _without_ any traits. I agree there needs to be buffs to other traits lines and nerfs to discipline. I'm coming at this from a what would make the profession more enjoyable to play standpoint. Not the "Arggghhh, my profession is weak give us every buff for freeeeee" stand point which everyone seems to think I'm doing. @"Obtena.7952" You keep going in circles on this so my clear cut argument for this change: *** **It would improve the flow of the profession and lessen the dependency on the Discipline skill line.** It would not be a game breaking buff, it wouldn't even be a strong buff. It **IS** a buff, but a QoL one. A small step in the right direction. *** ^^ This is 100% valid. It is my view on the design of warrior as someone who's put some time into warrior over the years. I'm not claiming it's law. Please someone explain to me why this is so unforgivably horrible to ask for? Like, every time a warrior swaps weapons a village of Asuran orphans are eaten by Primordus? This would not break the backs of the Anet team to do, it would not break the game, it's not a complete warrior overhaul. People ask for way more outrageous things on the forums. It's just something I would love to see thrown in the next balance patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > tldr , my way or the highway > > > > > > making fast hands baseline and people not wanting to use discipline again > > > > > > -condi bannerslave/condi berserkers not able to spam longbow f1 anymore..bye bye dps > > > -core war running without discipline, no more axe mastery..bye bye dps > > > -spellbreaker as i allready said, runs without discipline ONLY if no pain no gain frac. having no fast hands is of zero issue in that case or please show me all the threads "i need to strip boons/cc because i can't without fast hands" > > > > > > what other build, that is not your gunflame build, would benefit in pve? none,look above > > > > > > and yes "some people might enjoy it" same with the rifle wars, longbow rangers that apply to my groups. i wish them all the best, and even politly inform them when the next world boss is up before i kick them > > > > People would still play Discipline builds. Reason? Versatile Rage, Warrior's Sprint, Doubled Standards/Brawler's Recovery, Versatile Power, Axe Mastery/Burst Mastery. > > Fast Hands being baseline would mostly affect PvP/WvW and group support/utility oriented builds. > > Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to swap weapons faster and adapt/react to things faster? Would it be game breaking? Balance destroying? If yes, feel free to explain, how. > > > > For PvE, Banner Boonbreaker build is much enjoyable to play with FH, mace/mace + axe/axe with 5 second cooldown works very well. You wouldn't be stuck on mace/mace, when the breakbar is broken and everyone bursts the boss. But nowadays, chronos/renegades take care of boons because core warrior is just that much better overall (better CC, better dps) and bubble was gutted in PvE in latest balance patch. > > Another PvE build that could work much better would be Strength, Arms, Spellbreaker. Yes, it contradicts in a way that Spellbreaker doesn't use Discipline traitline with other traits (like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, etc), but the gain from Signet Mastery trait (Signet of Ferocity bonus) and Sundering Burst trait is that impactful, especially when soloing stuff. > > thanks for proving my point. > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up > so nothing changes. > > -arms is still kitten in all but condi,or condi banner builds..highly situational > -berserker is still kitten in all but condi banner build...highly situational > -defense is kitten in pve, lost its glory in pvp and is used in core war wvw roamer WITH discipline and strenght > spellbreaker is only useful in 3 certain gamemodes > 1) wvw zerg fights (because for soloroaming core war is superior) and the zerg build allready uses discipline https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_DPS_Spellbreaker > 2) pvp tetherbreaker(sword or dagger you decide) build that is not yet meta, but certainly in a good spot (and yes, those builds uses discipline so nothing changes) https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Strength_Dagger https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Tetherbreaker > 3) no pain no gain fractal spellbreaker https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave_(Fractal) which is the only build that would benef it, as i allready sayd 3 times the only build without discipline, and still very good at it's role with zero complaints "i can't cc/boonstrip because weaponswap 9 seconds" > > what other build, do you and that gunflame-dude have in mind that would benefit oh so much from baseline fasthands? because i fail to find any > > and i have only 4540 hours played on warrior. > > what you ask for is a straight up buff to warrior, by giving it a a new trait, and that will come at the cost of nerfing something else (rampage dmg/cd) (magebane tether might stacks/dmg buff) > > so no, lets not listen You're correct, people will still take Discipline but this would be a good first step to lessen the dependency on it without Anet having to do a huge rework. It would also give some more flavor to warrior as a profession other than just having burst as a special profession skill (_every_ professions has more special profession mechanics than warrior). It is a buff but a minor one. If they need to nerf something, they could nerf Discipline but I don't think this needs to come with a nerf, it's not like warrior will reign supreme over all if it can rotate between weapons a little quicker than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > > tldr , my way or the highway > > > > > > > > making fast hands baseline and people not wanting to use discipline again > > > > > > > > -condi bannerslave/condi berserkers not able to spam longbow f1 anymore..bye bye dps > > > > -core war running without discipline, no more axe mastery..bye bye dps > > > > -spellbreaker as i allready said, runs without discipline ONLY if no pain no gain frac. having no fast hands is of zero issue in that case or please show me all the threads "i need to strip boons/cc because i can't without fast hands" > > > > > > > > what other build, that is not your gunflame build, would benefit in pve? none,look above > > > > > > > > and yes "some people might enjoy it" same with the rifle wars, longbow rangers that apply to my groups. i wish them all the best, and even politly inform them when the next world boss is up before i kick them > > > > > > People would still play Discipline builds. Reason? Versatile Rage, Warrior's Sprint, Doubled Standards/Brawler's Recovery, Versatile Power, Axe Mastery/Burst Mastery. > > > Fast Hands being baseline would mostly affect PvP/WvW and group support/utility oriented builds. > > > Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to swap weapons faster and adapt/react to things faster? Would it be game breaking? Balance destroying? If yes, feel free to explain, how. > > > > > > For PvE, Banner Boonbreaker build is much enjoyable to play with FH, mace/mace + axe/axe with 5 second cooldown works very well. You wouldn't be stuck on mace/mace, when the breakbar is broken and everyone bursts the boss. But nowadays, chronos/renegades take care of boons because core warrior is just that much better overall (better CC, better dps) and bubble was gutted in PvE in latest balance patch. > > > Another PvE build that could work much better would be Strength, Arms, Spellbreaker. Yes, it contradicts in a way that Spellbreaker doesn't use Discipline traitline with other traits (like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, etc), but the gain from Signet Mastery trait (Signet of Ferocity bonus) and Sundering Burst trait is that impactful, especially when soloing stuff. > > > > thanks for proving my point. > > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up > > so nothing changes. > > > > -arms is still kitten in all but condi,or condi banner builds..highly situational > > -berserker is still kitten in all but condi banner build...highly situational > > -defense is kitten in pve, lost its glory in pvp and is used in core war wvw roamer WITH discipline and strenght > > spellbreaker is only useful in 3 certain gamemodes > > 1) wvw zerg fights (because for soloroaming core war is superior) and the zerg build allready uses discipline https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_DPS_Spellbreaker > > 2) pvp tetherbreaker(sword or dagger you decide) build that is not yet meta, but certainly in a good spot (and yes, those builds uses discipline so nothing changes) https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Strength_Dagger https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Tetherbreaker > > 3) no pain no gain fractal spellbreaker https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave_(Fractal) which is the only build that would benef it, as i allready sayd 3 times the only build without discipline, and still very good at it's role with zero complaints "i can't cc/boonstrip because weaponswap 9 seconds" > > > > what other build, do you and that gunflame-dude have in mind that would benefit oh so much from baseline fasthands? because i fail to find any > > > > and i have only 4540 hours played on warrior. > > > > what you ask for is a straight up buff to warrior, by giving it a a new trait, and that will come at the cost of nerfing something else (rampage dmg/cd) (magebane tether might stacks/dmg buff) > > > > so no, lets not listen > > You're correct, people will still take Discipline but this would be a good first step to lessen the dependency on it without Anet having to do a huge rework. It would also give some more flavor to warrior as a profession other than just having burst as a special profession skill (_every_ professions has more special profession mechanics than warrior). It is a buff but a minor one. If they need to nerf something, they could nerf Discipline but I don't think this needs to come with a nerf, it's not like warrior will reign supreme over all if it can rotate between weapons a little quicker than everyone else. but warrior is not the only class that has an entire traitline worked around weaponswap? howlong before the rangers will go "i want also a (baseline) weaponswap trait!!!" -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tail_Wind -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Furious_Grip -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Draw then that will get the ball rolling "but hey we also have pet weapon swap, we need a trait for that too" -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clarion_Bond -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zephyr%27s_Speed_(ranger) and then a matter of time before the eles (that have 4 weaponswaps, or more depending on weaver) start asking for things so no, it won't happen and even if it did..as i allready explained twice, nothing will change because discipline will be taken regardless of fast hands baseline or not the only thing i am willing to settle for, is superior rune of the warrior rework (unblikely, as the sigil and rune patch allready happened) make instead of -2 seconds weapon swap reduction, make it a -40%/50% reduction so every class can benefit from it, and warrior even more then watch the massive powercreep we just made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > thanks for proving my point. > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up > so nothing changes. Except you understood it only partially and completely ignored what I wrote after that. People would still play Discipline builds. Where does that imply that people wouldn't be playing non-Discipline builds? It was meant in a way that non-Discipline builds wouldn't suddenly miraculously surpass Discipline builds causing huge powercreep as some people say. I asked them to give me exact precise examples and yet not a single one of them delivered. One just said to reread this thread instead of typing it by himself. If it was that good argument to use against me, then why not copy it? The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore. What I ask is straight up buff and huge QoL to all non-Discipline builds which are used way less than Discipline builds. The new minor trait in Discipline traitline can be so insignificant without causing any powercreep at all (e.g. gain 3 sec of swiftness when hitting 3 or 5 enemies at the same time, CD 10 seconds), that depends only on Anet to decide and balance. Just like everything in this game :) They could add something spicy like fury being more effective (25% crit chance instead of 20%) but oh no no no! HUGE POWERCREEP! Warrior broken with 5% more crit chance :O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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