Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > thanks for proving my point.

> > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up

> > so nothing changes.

>

> Except you understood it only partially and completely ignored what I wrote after that. People would still play Discipline builds. Where does that imply that people wouldn't be playing non-Discipline builds?

> It was meant in a way that non-Discipline builds wouldn't suddenly miraculously surpass Discipline builds causing huge powercreep as some people say. I asked them to give me exact precise examples and yet not a single one of them delivered. One just said to reread this thread instead of typing it by himself. If it was that good argument to use against me, then why not copy it?

> The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore.

> What I ask is straight up buff and huge QoL to all non-Discipline builds which are used way less than Discipline builds. The new minor trait in Discipline traitline can be so insignificant without causing any powercreep at all (e.g. gain 3 sec of swiftness when hitting 3 or 5 enemies at the same time, CD 10 seconds), that depends only on Anet to decide and balance. Just like everything in this game :) They could add something spicy like fury being more effective (25% crit chance instead of 20%) but oh no no no! HUGE POWERCREEP! Warrior broken with 5% more crit chance :O

 

then what changes?

 

playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

 

or

 

playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

 

its literally the same lol

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> but warrior is not the only class that has an entire traitline worked around weaponswap? howlong before the rangers will go "i want also a (baseline) weaponswap trait!!!"

 

Because rangers never had access to 5 second weapon swap and their rotations were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012.

Let's put it this way. Imagine if every profession except warrior would get their weapon cooldowns changed from 10 seconds to 20 seconds and Anet would give each of those classes trait in some traitline that makes weapon swap 10 seconds again. Now tell me what would happen.

 

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> then what changes?

> playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

> or

> playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

> its literally the same lol

 

Are you trolling me now or what. What would change? All warrior builds would have 5 second weapon swap...

[melandru.3876]

.....................

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > but warrior is not the only class that has an entire traitline worked around weaponswap? howlong before the rangers will go "i want also a (baseline) weaponswap trait!!!"

>

> Because rangers never had access to 5 second weapon swap and their rotations were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012.

> Let's put it this way. Imagine if every profession except warrior would get their weapon cooldowns changed from 10 seconds to 20 seconds and Anet would give each of those classes trait in some traitline that makes weapon swap 10 seconds again. Now tell me what would happen.

>

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > then what changes?

> > playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

> > or

> > playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

> > its literally the same lol

>

> Are you trolling me now or what. What would change? All warrior builds would have 5 second weapon swap...

 

you are just a troll now, constantly repeating yourself and putting every constructive feedback aside.

 

i allready linked you every build curently useful. all those builds (minus spellbreaker boonstrip for fractals) allready use discipline so once more NOTHING CHANGES

name me one build that would benefit from baseline fast hands, there just isn't one

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

 

> @"Obtena.7952"

> You keep going in circles on this so my clear cut argument for this change:

> ***

> **It would improve the flow of the profession and lessen the dependency on the Discipline skill line.** It would not be a game breaking buff, it wouldn't even be a strong buff. It **IS** a buff, but a QoL one. A small step in the right direction.

> ***

> ^^ This is 100% valid. It is my view on the design of warrior as someone who's put some time into warrior over the years. I'm not claiming it's law.

>

> Please someone explain to me why this is so unforgivably horrible to ask for? Like, every time a warrior swaps weapons a village of Asuran orphans are eaten by Primordus? This would not break the backs of the Anet team to do, it would not break the game, it's not a complete warrior overhaul. People ask for way more outrageous things on the forums. It's just something I would love to see thrown in the next balance patch.

 

I am not going in circles here: if you and the supporters of this idea can't justify why it should be done, then there isn't a good reason for Anet to change it. Again, if the line is THAT strong, it sounds like the more likely path to fixing the dependency is a healthy nerf, not passing out free buffs. Let's be really clear; do not try to undersell this as a QoL change; that's pure BS ... it's a flat out power creep. Don't mask the proposal as anything BUT giving warriors a straight up advantage that you can't justify with anything but "it would be nice" and "it's just a small change". It's clear that you are just after faster access to weapon skills and IMO, you SHOULD have to access that through a traitline as part of the theme of a build.

 

Whether the ask is unforgivably horrible or not is irrelevant. Ask away, just don't get all confused when people disagree with you. If it's the harmless buff you and others are claiming, that's actually a reason to not bother changing it; there are more significant issues with the class that Anet should be focusing on. People have expressed their big hangups clearly enough ... there shouldn't be a question in your mind why people object to this idea. If you can't address then, that's an indication the idea isn't that well thought out.

 

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > thanks for proving my point.

> > > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up

> > > so nothing changes.

> >

> > Except you understood it only partially and completely ignored what I wrote after that. People would still play Discipline builds. Where does that imply that people wouldn't be playing non-Discipline builds?

> > It was meant in a way that non-Discipline builds wouldn't suddenly miraculously surpass Discipline builds causing huge powercreep as some people say. I asked them to give me exact precise examples and yet not a single one of them delivered. One just said to reread this thread instead of typing it by himself. If it was that good argument to use against me, then why not copy it?

> > The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore.

> > What I ask is straight up buff and huge QoL to all non-Discipline builds which are used way less than Discipline builds. The new minor trait in Discipline traitline can be so insignificant without causing any powercreep at all (e.g. gain 3 sec of swiftness when hitting 3 or 5 enemies at the same time, CD 10 seconds), that depends only on Anet to decide and balance. Just like everything in this game :) They could add something spicy like fury being more effective (25% crit chance instead of 20%) but oh no no no! HUGE POWERCREEP! Warrior broken with 5% more crit chance :O

>

> then what changes?

>

> playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

>

> or

>

> playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

>

> its literally the same lol

 

or

 

play without discipline with baseline fast hands

 

Which is the point. Since no one seems to have the imagination to think of when this would come in handy here is a senario:

 

I'm running GS and Hammer. I use "Rush" to engage a fight. Rush on 16 CD. I stay in GS for might generation and sustain. 10 seconds pass, I swap to Hammer for CC. 6 seconds pass and...uh oh! I get spiked. I need to get out. I try to swap to my GS, as my Rush/Whirling would be off CD but I can't, I still have 3 seconds left on weapon swap! Dead.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > > thanks for proving my point.

> > > > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up

> > > > so nothing changes.

> > >

> > > Except you understood it only partially and completely ignored what I wrote after that. People would still play Discipline builds. Where does that imply that people wouldn't be playing non-Discipline builds?

> > > It was meant in a way that non-Discipline builds wouldn't suddenly miraculously surpass Discipline builds causing huge powercreep as some people say. I asked them to give me exact precise examples and yet not a single one of them delivered. One just said to reread this thread instead of typing it by himself. If it was that good argument to use against me, then why not copy it?

> > > The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore.

> > > What I ask is straight up buff and huge QoL to all non-Discipline builds which are used way less than Discipline builds. The new minor trait in Discipline traitline can be so insignificant without causing any powercreep at all (e.g. gain 3 sec of swiftness when hitting 3 or 5 enemies at the same time, CD 10 seconds), that depends only on Anet to decide and balance. Just like everything in this game :) They could add something spicy like fury being more effective (25% crit chance instead of 20%) but oh no no no! HUGE POWERCREEP! Warrior broken with 5% more crit chance :O

> >

> > then what changes?

> >

> > playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

> >

> > or

> >

> > playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

> >

> > its literally the same lol

>

> or

>

> play without discipline with baseline fast hands

>

> Which is the point. Since no one seems to have the imagination to think of when this would come in handy here is a senario:

>

> I'm running GS and Hammer. I use "Rush" to engage a fight. Rush on 16 CD. I stay in GS for might generation and sustain. 10 seconds pass, I swap to Hammer for CC. 6 seconds pass and...uh oh! I get spiked. I need to get out. I try to swap to my GS, as my Rush/Whirling would be off CD but I can't, I still have 3 seconds left on weapon swap! Dead.

 

again, what possible build (that will magically stop running discipline) are you thinking off?

 

there just isn't one

 

 

it's like i'm talking to a brick wall here, and it's getting annoying

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> you are just a troll now, constantly repeating yourself and putting every constructive feedback aside.

> i allready linked you every build curently useful. all those builds (minus spellbreaker boonstrip for fractals) allready use discipline so once more NOTHING CHANGES

> name me one build that would benefit from baseline fast hands, there just isn't one

 

Nothing changes for Discipline builds, thus no powercreep.

A lot changes for non-Discipline builds as you can now adjust to situations faster, be more adaptable with 5 second weapon swap. Are those builds going to surpass Discipline builds? If yes, explain how, Mr 4.5k hour warrior.

 

 

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > > > thanks for proving my point.

> > > > > making fast hands baseline, so players can chose NOT to take discipline is a bullkitten argument. as you just said, people will still take discipline because he traitline is just to good to give up

> > > > > so nothing changes.

> > > >

> > > > Except you understood it only partially and completely ignored what I wrote after that. People would still play Discipline builds. Where does that imply that people wouldn't be playing non-Discipline builds?

> > > > It was meant in a way that non-Discipline builds wouldn't suddenly miraculously surpass Discipline builds causing huge powercreep as some people say. I asked them to give me exact precise examples and yet not a single one of them delivered. One just said to reread this thread instead of typing it by himself. If it was that good argument to use against me, then why not copy it?

> > > > The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore.

> > > > What I ask is straight up buff and huge QoL to all non-Discipline builds which are used way less than Discipline builds. The new minor trait in Discipline traitline can be so insignificant without causing any powercreep at all (e.g. gain 3 sec of swiftness when hitting 3 or 5 enemies at the same time, CD 10 seconds), that depends only on Anet to decide and balance. Just like everything in this game :) They could add something spicy like fury being more effective (25% crit chance instead of 20%) but oh no no no! HUGE POWERCREEP! Warrior broken with 5% more crit chance :O

> > >

> > > then what changes?

> > >

> > > playing discipline to have the traitline + fast hands

> > >

> > > or

> > >

> > > playing discipline with now baseline fast hands

> > >

> > > its literally the same lol

> >

> > or

> >

> > play without discipline with baseline fast hands

> >

> > Which is the point. Since no one seems to have the imagination to think of when this would come in handy here is a senario:

> >

> > I'm running GS and Hammer. I use "Rush" to engage a fight. Rush on 16 CD. I stay in GS for might generation and sustain. 10 seconds pass, I swap to Hammer for CC. 6 seconds pass and...uh oh! I get spiked. I need to get out. I try to swap to my GS, as my Rush/Whirling would be off CD but I can't, I still have 3 seconds left on weapon swap! Dead.

>

> again, what possible build (that will magically stop running discipline) are you thinking off?

>

> there just isn't one

>

>

> it's like i'm talking to a brick wall here, and it's getting annoying

 

Ditto on the brick wall thing. Here we are though.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > you are just a troll now, constantly repeating yourself and putting every constructive feedback aside.

> > i allready linked you every build curently useful. all those builds (minus spellbreaker boonstrip for fractals) allready use discipline so once more NOTHING CHANGES

> > name me one build that would benefit from baseline fast hands, there just isn't one

>

> Nothing changes for Discipline builds, thus no powercreep.

> A lot changes for non-Discipline builds as you can now adjust to situations faster, be more adaptable with 5 second weapon swap. Are those builds going to surpass Discipline builds? If yes, explain how, Mr 4.5k hour warrior.

>

>

 

 

and once again i ask you: what non-discipline builds

you have yet to answer the most crucial of all questions

 

if you fail to understand why perople can't agree with you (i'm not the only one disaggreeing) then you are suffering from tunnelvision

[cryorion.9532]

@"Obtena.7952"

> There isn't anything underwhelming or useless about builds that don't use Discipline. Again, I'm just repeat it: If Discipline and FH are SO GOOD, that everything other choice pales in comparison to it, then that's an indication they need a **massive nerf**, not a global baseline buff for the class. You better be REALLY careful about how you present your ideas about this topic if you want to push for positive changes.

 

There is. Why do you think people don't play/prefer those builds as much? FH baseline would help those builds. If you think that would cause powercreep, then again, please explain precisely how.

 

> It's absolutely ridiculous to say Anet should take the awesome things from a trait line and make them baseline because they are so good, nothing else is meaningful as a choice, for whatever reason you could think up. You are literally asking for OP'ed things to be made baseline. Give your head a shake.

 

What do you think is easier to make non-Discipline builds more useful, viable and actually good? Making one minor trait baseline or reworking multiple traitlines? No one said that after making FH baseline, no additional adjustments wouldn't be necessary. Some things would still be probably underperforming. If there are things you think would be overperforming, feel free to discuss them :)

 

The trait is not OP, you are just exaggerating while being ignorant what would happen if ANet ever nerfs it. Also, you act like warrior would get whole Discipline traitline as baseline, like suddenly all warrior builds will be capable of what Discipline builds are. You give Fast Hands trait value of whole Discipline traitline because of your ignorance, lack of class knowledge.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> and once again i ask you: what non-discipline builds

> you have yet to answer the most crucial of all questions

>

> if you fail to understand why perople can't agree with you (i'm not the only one disaggreeing) then you are suffering from tunnelvision

 

Ok, let me copy this from page 1 of this thread:

 

"Let me tell you specific example of specific build: Dagger/Warhorn + Hammer boonbreaker with Strength, Tactics and Spellbreaker traitlines. When you are in fight, and you need to swap to dagger/warhorn for condi removal, you are stuck on that weaponset for 10 seconds and are unable to swap to hammer fast enough to start aoe CC-ing and mass removing boons. Same applies to other way around, when swapping to hammer and then getting condi bombed, you have to wait 10 seconds before doing so.

Now you may ask why would anyone use such build when it obviously doesn't work that well, you can't adapt to immediate situations fast enough with 10 sec weapon CD as warrior. Here comes FH baseline where you can swap between weapons faster.

 

Another short example, e.g. mace mainhand 2nd skill block, yes it has 10 seconds cooldown, but imagine if you swap to xy weapon and are stuck on it for 10 seconds, and you want to block something fast, 5 second wep CD is obviously better to adapt fast.

Etc.

 

Now this fast adaptation is what makes people fear that warrior would be suddenly broken. Even though most people fight 99% of the time Discipline builds, so they already fight "fast adaptation" warriors."

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Obtena.7952"

> > There isn't anything underwhelming or useless about builds that don't use Discipline. Again, I'm just repeat it: If Discipline and FH are SO GOOD, that everything other choice pales in comparison to it, then that's an indication they need a **massive nerf**, not a global baseline buff for the class. You better be REALLY careful about how you present your ideas about this topic if you want to push for positive changes.

>

> There is. Why do you think people don't play/prefer those builds as much? FH baseline would help those builds. If you think that would cause powercreep, then again, please explain precisely how.

>

Because Discipline is too good ... which is what I've been saying ... if it's too good, the answer isn't just to doll out the good stuff to make everyone that level of good.

 

> > It's absolutely ridiculous to say Anet should take the awesome things from a trait line and make them baseline because they are so good, nothing else is meaningful as a choice, for whatever reason you could think up. You are literally asking for OP'ed things to be made baseline. Give your head a shake.

>

> What do you think is easier to make non-Discipline builds more useful, viable and actually good?

 

Easy ... to nerf the things that make Discipline THE traitline that people can't get away from. These other non-Discipline builds aren't bad builds ... they just aren't the awesome that Discipline ones are. My argument doesn't change ... you keep presenting the same question, the answer is the same. If the strength of Discipline precludes the meaningful choice of other traitlines, the answer to fix that is to make Discipline on par as a choice to other trait lines. That's a nerf, not a global buff.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952"

> > > There isn't anything underwhelming or useless about builds that don't use Discipline. Again, I'm just repeat it: If Discipline and FH are SO GOOD, that everything other choice pales in comparison to it, then that's an indication they need a **massive nerf**, not a global baseline buff for the class. You better be REALLY careful about how you present your ideas about this topic if you want to push for positive changes.

> >

> > There is. Why do you think people don't play/prefer those builds as much? FH baseline would help those builds. If you think that would cause powercreep, then again, please explain precisely how.

> >

> Because Discipline is too good ... which is what I've been saying ... if it's too good, the answer isn't just to doll out the good stuff to make everyone that level of good.

>

> > > It's absolutely ridiculous to say Anet should take the awesome things from a trait line and make them baseline because they are so good, nothing else is meaningful as a choice, for whatever reason you could think up. You are literally asking for OP'ed things to be made baseline. Give your head a shake.

> >

> > What do you think is easier to make non-Discipline builds more useful, viable and actually good?

>

> Easy ... to nerf the things that make Discipline THE traitline that people can't get away from. These other non-Discipline builds aren't bad builds ... they just aren't the awesome that Discipline ones are. My argument doesn't change ... you keep presenting the same question, the answer is the same. If the strength of Discipline precludes the meaningful choice of other traitlines, the answer to fix that is to make Discipline on par as a choice to other trait lines. That's a nerf, not a global buff.

 

Yes, so let's nerf all Discipline builds so warrior can be even more useless. Again, statement from someone who doesn't know the class well.

@"melandru.3876" Mr. 4.5k hours warrior, what do you say if warriors got nerfed Fast Hands and/or whole Discipline traitline?

 

EDIT: Another thing, with this idea of toning down good stuff to be on par with bad stuff instead of buffing bad stuff to be on par with good stuff, why is it then, that Anet buffed Reaper, Scraper, etc? The idea behind this is the same. If your goal is to lower powercreep in this game, we are not heading this direction obviously.

[Obtena.7952]

Again, think about the argument you are presenting to the community at large. Don't pretend you don't understand what I'm saying. If the general concensus is that Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, the easiest fix for that is a big ole nerf, plain and simple. I mean, it doesn't help you any that you basically come out and say that non-Discipline builds aren't good either ... all signs point to Nerfville.

 

You seem to be forgetting (or ignoring) that Anet isn't making class changes based on relative class performance here. If 100% of all warrior builds are using Discipline, it's simply too good, because the other traitlines aren't exactly trash either. I mean, again, this is all relative. If people are always taking Discipline because it's the good stuff, then it makes sense that the easiest path (remember you asked ME the easiest fix) is to nerf Discipline.

[Xaylin.1860]

Dare I ask again: If it is about build diversity, why not implement alternatives? To improve other set ups?

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Nothing changes for Discipline builds, thus no powercreep.

 

Oh, there will be a powercreep. For anyone not using Discipline. And now, please. Don't demand other people to debate on how much would change and what exact build might turn out problematic. If there wasn't any improvement, you wouldn't ask for it. On the contrary, you - or anyone desiring such a change - should provide more facts why it would be all right or is the the optimal solution for an issue. More than 'It would be nice and just feels more fluid.' or 'There are scenarios where I'm easier outplayed without FH.'.

 

This discussion isn't about creating build diversity or smoother gameplay. Otherwise people would be discussing specific issues with the class and be more open-minded for alternatives. There is no credibility in the stated reasoning. In the end, it's just about wanting some candy in form of Fast-Hands. And being upset if people won't hand it out.

 

People disagree with the request. Feel free to neglect their opinion. This won't change their stance on the topic.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> EDIT: Another thing, with this idea of toning down good stuff to be on par with bad stuff instead of buffing bad stuff to be on par with good stuff, why is it then, that Anet buffed Reaper, Scraper, etc? The idea behind this is the same. If your goal is to lower powercreep in this game, we are not heading this direction obviously.

 

Then we'd be talking about buffing Berserker.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > and once again i ask you: what non-discipline builds

> > you have yet to answer the most crucial of all questions

> >

> > if you fail to understand why perople can't agree with you (i'm not the only one disaggreeing) then you are suffering from tunnelvision

>

> Ok, let me copy this from page 1 of this thread:

>

> "Let me tell you specific example of specific build: Dagger/Warhorn + Hammer boonbreaker with Strength, Tactics and Spellbreaker traitlines. When you are in fight, and you need to swap to dagger/warhorn for condi removal, you are stuck on that weaponset for 10 seconds and are unable to swap to hammer fast enough to start aoe CC-ing and mass removing boons. Same applies to other way around, when swapping to hammer and then getting condi bombed, you have to wait 10 seconds before doing so.

> Now you may ask why would anyone use such build when it obviously doesn't work that well, you can't adapt to immediate situations fast enough with 10 sec weapon CD as warrior. Here comes FH baseline where you can swap between weapons faster.

>

> Another short example, e.g. mace mainhand 2nd skill block, yes it has 10 seconds cooldown, but imagine if you swap to xy weapon and are stuck on it for 10 seconds, and you want to block something fast, 5 second wep CD is obviously better to adapt fast.

> Etc.

>

> Now this fast adaptation is what makes people fear that warrior would be suddenly broken. Even though most people fight 99% of the time Discipline builds, so they already fight "fast adaptation" warriors."

 

dagger/warhon and hammer 0.o this might work for unranked i guess. AND with tactics, welcome back shoutbow..without shouts, without bow

 

i want my mace/sword + longbow build to work, what possible trait do you suggest being made baseline? so i can use it as "this build will finally see use now, its good for diversity guys"

 

also newsflash: if condis are an issue why not take discipline and brawlers recovery, lol! you are now able to cure condis on weapon swap

so what exactly changes????

 

why play a handicap build?

 

remove all air from the tires of your vehicle, now fill them halful and enjoy your new way of driving, such diversity

[melandru.3876]

remove this, double comment

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> also newsflash: if condis are an issue why not take discipline and brawlers recovery, lol! you are now able to cure condis on weapon swap

> so what exactly changes????

 

No one is asking for Brawler's recovery baseline. Stop exaggerating that we want all traits baseline, Mr. 4.5k hour warrior. Just think about how beneficial it would be to have 5 second weapon swap on non-Discipline builds. How much more fun and practical those builds would be to play.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > also newsflash: if condis are an issue why not take discipline and brawlers recovery, lol! you are now able to cure condis on weapon swap

> > so what exactly changes????

>

> No one is asking for Brawler's recovery baseline. Stop exaggerating that we want all traits baseline, Mr. 4.5k hour warrior. Just think about how beneficial it would be to have 5 second weapon swap on non-Discipline builds. How much more fun and practical those builds would be to play.

 

No one is debating it wouldn't be beneficial ... that's not a compelling reason to change something. You have to explain why that benefit is necessary. EVERY buff is beneficial, so that alone isn't enough to justify buffing something. It's simply trivial. Do you know what trivial means?

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > also newsflash: if condis are an issue why not take discipline and brawlers recovery, lol! you are now able to cure condis on weapon swap

> > so what exactly changes????

>

> No one is asking for Brawler's recovery baseline. Stop exaggerating that we want all traits baseline, Mr. 4.5k hour warrior. Just think about how beneficial it would be to have 5 second weapon swap on non-Discipline builds. How much more fun and practical those builds would be to play.

 

now i know you are not reading, all you want to hear and see is your own words, somehow typed by me

re-read what i said

 

I SAID TAKE DISCPLINE for brawlers recovery, not make brawlers recovery baseline

 

where in those exact words do you see me telling you "brawlers recovery baseline" ?

 

just by naming me twice now "mr 4.5k warrior" this shows your attitude, very childish at best

 

and that aside, i'm female, not male..can't have it all and can't know it all now can we

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Again, think about the argument you are presenting to the community at large. Don't pretend you don't understand what I'm saying. If the general concensus is that Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, the easiest fix for that is a big ole nerf, plain and simple. I mean, it doesn't help you any that you basically come out and say that non-Discipline builds aren't good either ... all signs point to Nerfville.

>

> You seem to be forgetting (or ignoring) that Anet isn't making class changes based on relative class performance here. If 100% of all warrior builds are using Discipline, it's simply too good, because the other traitlines aren't exactly trash either.

 

I don't pretend that I don't understand. I just find your arguments to be wrong.

 

I will ask you just one more question because this is getting tedious. How Fast Hands baseline is going to increase powercreep. Please give me exact examples of builds, trait synergies, etc that would be overperforming compared to Discipline.

Giving more options how to play profession is not increasing powercreep. Powercreep is increased when something already strong (in this case Discipline builds) gets even stronger. We don't want buffs to Discipline traitline (nor nerfs!).

[Obtena.7952]

It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > also newsflash: if condis are an issue why not take discipline and brawlers recovery, lol! you are now able to cure condis on weapon swap

> > > so what exactly changes????

> >

> > No one is asking for Brawler's recovery baseline. Stop exaggerating that we want all traits baseline, Mr. 4.5k hour warrior. Just think about how beneficial it would be to have 5 second weapon swap on non-Discipline builds. How much more fun and practical those builds would be to play.

>

> now i know you are not reading, all you want to hear and see is your own words, somehow typed by me

> re-read what i said

>

> I SAID TAKE DISCPLINE for brawlers recovery, not make brawlers recovery baseline

>

> where in those exact words do you see me telling you "brawlers recovery baseline" ?

>

> just by naming me twice now "mr 4.5k warrior" this shows your attitude, very childish at best

>

> and that aside, i'm female, not male..can't have it all and can't know it all now can we

 

Yes, I misread that. You got me.

[melandru.3876]

my last comment here as i'm done with an endless-conversation

 

would it be nice to have? sure i guess baseline is alwlays ueful

what builds, currently in a good/meta spot, would benefit from it? only fractal spellbreaker

 

 

what changs? nothing

 

build diversity is still an illusion as i allready explained three times now by linking all the possible builds

 

other traitlines need a rework/buff

or

discipline need a nerf

 

without either of those, nothing will change that is what my experience tells me