babazhook.6805 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"Ensign.2189" said: > Yeah, I think dropping the window for Repeater to 3s would help, you still have time for two volleys but you get Shadow Strike back a little faster. Also makes it clear it's a bonus follow-up and not Unload spam 2.0. Otherwise it is in a good spot. I have taken more and more into misxing a second skill in between the repeater shots. As example shadowstrike, repeater, Body shot repeater and think the 4 seconds better allows that. If you drop it too 3s I think it becomes worse as you will be much more pressed to use it or lose it thus the same shadowstrke>repeater>repeater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"Ensign.2189" said: > > > Pistol 2 is beastly on condi P/D. Before the repeater initiative change you were actually better off spamming pistol 2 for damage. It's kept in check by slow projectile speed. > > > > > > The Repeater window on 3 does feel a bit long. I think there's some value in locking out Shadow Strike for a few seconds, as that window where you can't instantly port away gives you some vulnerability (and thus some power budget for more power). > > > > > > Really not sure where to put it though. The auto is already stellar and 2 + 3 are very strong skills. Maybe dagger 4; it doesn't seem like any of the /D builds get good value out of it, but no idea what it should do. > > > > Dagger 4 might be where it gos. The dagger/dagger builds need a redo in any case as the build is hurting without the steal ports. I am finding #3 very effective as is. I has led me to rejig some traits and the utility load as I am not so pressed to use a venom. Again I speak from pure condition and not the hybrid or power side. I just do not want the repeater skill to become too much like unload from a power damage point of view. > > It wouldn’t because it is a flip skill. You can’t really spam it and there isn’t any Might generation. > > I think Dancing Dagger is fine damage wise with the unique bounce functionality. I can use it against stealthed opponents with a nearby NPC or non-stealthed ally (R.I.P. stealth gyro bouncing). I do think it could track better to a target. Side stepping projectiles that aren’t channeled shouldn’t be a legitimate option imo (given all the obstruction/block/dodge/reflect in the game). The thing with might is there other sources and while it certainly easier in p/p unload you can generate might via other means that are not that hard. It could come from a thirdt party, mali 7 , the Fire for effect and so on. IMO might loaded p/p unload should have significant damage advantages over might load repeater usage. Keep in mind there also two repeaters for a lesser ini cost than one unload. Now I understand it chained off the Shadowstrike which means it harder to spam and feel that acts as a good check on it but that said shadowstrike/repeater/repeater at 8 Ini has a lot going for it compared to unload as is even in power builds. I like the idea of some sort of unblockable somewhere in the set. It just a matter of where to place it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > when i used shadow strike it was shadowstrike if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater fucks with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > shadowstrike > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 My problem isn't Repeater itself but how slow it is. The damage output for 6 init and nearly 2s of chained attack sucks. Unload is nearly as fast and a player ends up with might stacks and doesn't have to be in melee range. Course ANet has basically gutted Pistol since launch with nerf after nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"Straegen.2938" said: > My problem isn't Repeater itself but how slow it is. The damage output for 6 init and nearly 2s of chained attack sucks. Unload is nearly as fast and a player ends up with might stacks and doesn't have to be in melee range. > > Course ANet has basically gutted Pistol since launch with nerf after nerf. And....... Sic em rapid fire exist lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > And....... > Sic em rapid fire exist lol Yep fighting that build is a serious problem for Dare Devil as is Rifle Zerker with the last changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > shadowstrike > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > > shadowstrike > > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. > > where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. You are not making an equitable comparison here. You can NOT get 25 stacks torment out of Shadowstrike even the old version for the same ini spent for those bleeds. The math is pretty straightforward. First and foremost ignore any sources of torment outside P #3 in counting torment stacks as adding repeater did not impact alternative sources. The previous and exisiting shadowstrike were the same skill applying 4 torment and that raw damage for 4 ini. They are thus a wash so we look at the next 4 INI spent. Old system to get 4 more torment was 4 more ini. for 4 more INI current system adds 10 bleeds. 10 Bleeds does significantly more damage than does 4 torment even when the tormented person moving so for that SAME INI spent you are doing more damage overall now then under the old system. Shadowstrike is harder for an enemy to avoid yet at the same time one more susceptible to damage. Torment damage drops considerably when an enemy decides not to move where as bleed damage is consistent. The Use of the same 8 Ini in one build added 8 torment prior to changes and now adds 4 torment and 10 bleed. Putting two types of damaging conditions on is harder to cleanse then one type of condtion. When facing THIEF as example that 8 INI worth of Torment can be removed with a single withdraw by said thief. That thief can not remove both torment and bleed with a withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 1, 2019 Share Posted May 1, 2019 I’d like to comment that attack speed helps thief a lot, in general. Thief has some high damage attacks that when used with quickness are highly effective. That said, you get a lot more effectiveness out of quickness on other weaponsets (quickness enhanced Dagger, Unload or Three Round Burst). I might post a video if I have time. Recording is a pain and I do like to spend my limited play time actually playing...but being able to see the damage potential might help somewhat explain why certain aspects need buffing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > > > shadowstrike > > > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > > > > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > > > > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > > > > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > > > > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. > > > > where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. > > You are not making an equitable comparison here. You can NOT get 25 stacks torment out of Shadowstrike even the old version for the same ini spent for those bleeds. > > The math is pretty straightforward. First and foremost ignore any sources of torment outside P #3 in counting torment stacks as adding repeater did not impact alternative sources. > > The previous and exisiting shadowstrike were the same skill applying 4 torment and that raw damage for 4 ini. They are thus a wash so we look at the next 4 INI spent. > Old system to get 4 more torment was 4 more ini. for 4 more INI current system adds 10 bleeds. > > 10 Bleeds does significantly more damage than does 4 torment even when the tormented person moving so for that SAME INI spent you are doing more damage overall now then under the old system. > > Shadowstrike is harder for an enemy to avoid yet at the same time one more susceptible to damage. Torment damage drops considerably when an enemy decides not to move where as bleed damage is consistent. The Use of the same 8 Ini in one build added 8 torment prior to changes and now adds 4 torment and 10 bleed. Putting two types of damaging conditions on is harder to cleanse then one type of condtion. When facing THIEF as example that 8 INI worth of Torment can be removed with a single withdraw by said thief. That thief can not remove both torment and bleed with a withdraw. > > i didnt say i was getting 25 torment out of shadowstrike alone im saying because im locked into repeater for 4 seconds i can no longer use my rotation to apply and maintain 25 stacks of torment with shadowstrike and my other skills. yeah you get more damage from 10 bleeding for spamming a skill which is my problem in the first place its lazy and brain dead lacking any critical thinking its basically the condi version of unload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I’m going to mention that you can now chain Repeater cheaply and have both channel against targets that try to escape into stealth. It is nice against a rifle Deadeye because they will instinctively dodge to gain stealth after being hit. By the time they hit a stunbreak and dodge you can sometimes channel enough damage that some more fragile builds will be downed. Of course, the set up for that involves Binding Shadow, Sneak Attack, Shadowstrike and Repeater x2 plus using a stolen skill. And a less squishy target, or a non-thief, will usually still be alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > > > > shadowstrike > > > > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > > > > > > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > > > > > > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > > > > > > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > > > > > > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. > > > > > > where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. > > > > You are not making an equitable comparison here. You can NOT get 25 stacks torment out of Shadowstrike even the old version for the same ini spent for those bleeds. > > > > The math is pretty straightforward. First and foremost ignore any sources of torment outside P #3 in counting torment stacks as adding repeater did not impact alternative sources. > > > > The previous and exisiting shadowstrike were the same skill applying 4 torment and that raw damage for 4 ini. They are thus a wash so we look at the next 4 INI spent. > > Old system to get 4 more torment was 4 more ini. for 4 more INI current system adds 10 bleeds. > > > > 10 Bleeds does significantly more damage than does 4 torment even when the tormented person moving so for that SAME INI spent you are doing more damage overall now then under the old system. > > > > Shadowstrike is harder for an enemy to avoid yet at the same time one more susceptible to damage. Torment damage drops considerably when an enemy decides not to move where as bleed damage is consistent. The Use of the same 8 Ini in one build added 8 torment prior to changes and now adds 4 torment and 10 bleed. Putting two types of damaging conditions on is harder to cleanse then one type of condtion. When facing THIEF as example that 8 INI worth of Torment can be removed with a single withdraw by said thief. That thief can not remove both torment and bleed with a withdraw. > > > > > i didnt say i was getting 25 torment out of shadowstrike alone im saying because im locked into repeater for 4 seconds i can no longer use my rotation to apply and maintain 25 stacks of torment with shadowstrike and my other skills. > yeah you get more damage from 10 bleeding for spamming a skill which is my problem in the first place its lazy and brain dead lacking any critical thinking its basically the condi version of unload. I am not sure how Repeater affects your other torment skill apps. Impaling is not affected, the venom is not affected #4 is not affected. You are NOT locked into repeater. You can still use all of your other skills. You do not have to even use repeater . Shadowstrike away and do your regular stuff. The skill in no way shape or form compares to unload. You can use it at most twice and then need another shadowstrike to reset it. This requires active gameplay and MORE of such then prior to the changes. >shadowstrike This is the rotation you posted as using. Thats just shadowstrike over and over again mixed with dodge and steal. That closer to Unload in usage and repetiveness. Load trap steal to opponent wherein trap dropped. Hidden theif traited so use Sneak attack followed by an immediate shadowstrike. Repeater Pistol 2 repeater dagger 4. When opponet closes Shadowstrike away. reapeter Pistol 2 . Throw in your dodges as needed. Throw in CnD or another stealth source as needed for the #1 sneak attack. you do not have to use just pistol 3 and I do not see why you would. Repeater is not shadowstrike. it again to having a 6th skill on your weapon tool bar. Mixing up 6 skills is less repetitive then relying on just shadowstrike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcanistSeven.8720 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > > > > > shadowstrike > > > > > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > > > > > > > > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > > > > > > > > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > > > > > > > > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > > > > > > > > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. > > > > > > > > where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. > > > > > > You are not making an equitable comparison here. You can NOT get 25 stacks torment out of Shadowstrike even the old version for the same ini spent for those bleeds. > > > > > > The math is pretty straightforward. First and foremost ignore any sources of torment outside P #3 in counting torment stacks as adding repeater did not impact alternative sources. > > > > > > The previous and exisiting shadowstrike were the same skill applying 4 torment and that raw damage for 4 ini. They are thus a wash so we look at the next 4 INI spent. > > > Old system to get 4 more torment was 4 more ini. for 4 more INI current system adds 10 bleeds. > > > > > > 10 Bleeds does significantly more damage than does 4 torment even when the tormented person moving so for that SAME INI spent you are doing more damage overall now then under the old system. > > > > > > Shadowstrike is harder for an enemy to avoid yet at the same time one more susceptible to damage. Torment damage drops considerably when an enemy decides not to move where as bleed damage is consistent. The Use of the same 8 Ini in one build added 8 torment prior to changes and now adds 4 torment and 10 bleed. Putting two types of damaging conditions on is harder to cleanse then one type of condtion. When facing THIEF as example that 8 INI worth of Torment can be removed with a single withdraw by said thief. That thief can not remove both torment and bleed with a withdraw. > > > > > > > > i didnt say i was getting 25 torment out of shadowstrike alone im saying because im locked into repeater for 4 seconds i can no longer use my rotation to apply and maintain 25 stacks of torment with shadowstrike and my other skills. > > yeah you get more damage from 10 bleeding for spamming a skill which is my problem in the first place its lazy and brain dead lacking any critical thinking its basically the condi version of unload. > > I am not sure how Repeater affects your other torment skill apps. Impaling is not affected, the venom is not affected #4 is not affected. You are NOT locked into repeater. You can still use all of your other skills. You do not have to even use repeater . Shadowstrike away and do your regular stuff. The skill in no way shape or form compares to unload. You can use it at most twice and then need another shadowstrike to reset it. This requires active gameplay and MORE of such then prior to the changes. > > >shadowstrike > > This is the rotation you posted as using. Thats just shadowstrike over and over again mixed with dodge and steal. That closer to Unload in usage and repetiveness. > > Load trap steal to opponent wherein trap dropped. Hidden theif traited so use Sneak attack followed by an immediate shadowstrike. Repeater Pistol 2 repeater dagger 4. When opponet closes Shadowstrike away. reapeter Pistol 2 . Throw in your dodges as needed. Throw in CnD or another stealth source as needed for the #1 sneak attack. you do not have to use just pistol 3 and I do not see why you would. Repeater is not shadowstrike. it again to having a 6th skill on your weapon tool bar. Mixing up 6 skills is less repetitive then relying on just shadowstrike. no point in arguing with someone who doesn't understand the definition of spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > when i > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said: > > > > > > > > > > > its killed on of my favorite builds for thief idk what anet is thinking but it feels like thief build diversity is being kitten on in favor of spamming skills and im not sure if i want to stick around for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not see how the add of repeater suddenly leads to you spamming skills. If you were just chaining shadowstrikes together you were spamming skills. If you do not want to use repeater you can shadowstrike away and use other skills as used to happen before the repeater add. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > idk changing repeater to have 2 ini makes it sound like they want us to spam it and chaining skills isnt spamming if it is every build is spamming skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to use other skills at any time. The repeater stays up long enough so as to allow that., Added to that nothing changed with shadowstrike. It the same skill it always was. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spamming a skill means using the same skill consecutively over and over again. You can not do that with repeater. It can be used at most twice consecutively. Very often you will not get the second one off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadwostrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike>shadowstrike is spamming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike>repeater>bodyshot>repeater is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when i used shadow strike it was > > > > > > > shadowstrike > > > > > > > if you just spammed shadow strike your as good as dead now repeater kitten with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > So the only weapon skill you used was shadowstrike? Thats how spamming is defined nothwithstanding you mixing it in with steals or dodge. When a person used p/p for unload and mixed in a steal or a dodge and every time he used a weapon pressed 3 for unload, that was defined as spamming. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I have been using p/d a long time as well and I did not fight the way you do. I would preload needle trap>steal...this unloading trap and stealthing me>sneak attack to load the 5 bleeds>shadowstrike away> then use #2 0r #1 as warranted. (this the old core build) > > > > > > > > > > > > My opening attack rotation thus loaded 7 poison , 8 bleed an immob and 4 torment and at the end of it I was at range. The Core variant would add the 6 confusion on top of that.The sum total in ini spent with this opening rotation was 4. If I went to pistol 2 while at range I could keep him Imobbed as well as load the Vuln and poison . Obviously some classes much more reistant to immob so when they closed again i would shadowstrike away. > > > > > > > > > > > > Under the current system with repeater I have access to 10 more bleeds after that shadowstrike for 4 more INI which IMO adds more damage then 4 torment were I to allow a close and shadowstrike away. Now it rare some of this not blocked or dodged but I find it much more effective with the repeater add. The enemy has a lot more stuff he has to block reflect or dodge. > > > > > > > > > > where you have access to 10 more bleeds i can no longer apply 25 stacks of torment along with i also apply bleeding and poison. that was my initial burst after that i use pistol 2 then needle trap when they get close and shadowstrike away after the trap has been activated. spamming it would just be using 3 when ever they get close and nothing else. > > > > > > > > You are not making an equitable comparison here. You can NOT get 25 stacks torment out of Shadowstrike even the old version for the same ini spent for those bleeds. > > > > > > > > The math is pretty straightforward. First and foremost ignore any sources of torment outside P #3 in counting torment stacks as adding repeater did not impact alternative sources. > > > > > > > > The previous and exisiting shadowstrike were the same skill applying 4 torment and that raw damage for 4 ini. They are thus a wash so we look at the next 4 INI spent. > > > > Old system to get 4 more torment was 4 more ini. for 4 more INI current system adds 10 bleeds. > > > > > > > > 10 Bleeds does significantly more damage than does 4 torment even when the tormented person moving so for that SAME INI spent you are doing more damage overall now then under the old system. > > > > > > > > Shadowstrike is harder for an enemy to avoid yet at the same time one more susceptible to damage. Torment damage drops considerably when an enemy decides not to move where as bleed damage is consistent. The Use of the same 8 Ini in one build added 8 torment prior to changes and now adds 4 torment and 10 bleed. Putting two types of damaging conditions on is harder to cleanse then one type of condtion. When facing THIEF as example that 8 INI worth of Torment can be removed with a single withdraw by said thief. That thief can not remove both torment and bleed with a withdraw. > > > > > > > > > > > i didnt say i was getting 25 torment out of shadowstrike alone im saying because im locked into repeater for 4 seconds i can no longer use my rotation to apply and maintain 25 stacks of torment with shadowstrike and my other skills. > > > yeah you get more damage from 10 bleeding for spamming a skill which is my problem in the first place its lazy and brain dead lacking any critical thinking its basically the condi version of unload. > > > > I am not sure how Repeater affects your other torment skill apps. Impaling is not affected, the venom is not affected #4 is not affected. You are NOT locked into repeater. You can still use all of your other skills. You do not have to even use repeater . Shadowstrike away and do your regular stuff. The skill in no way shape or form compares to unload. You can use it at most twice and then need another shadowstrike to reset it. This requires active gameplay and MORE of such then prior to the changes. > > > > >shadowstrike > > > > This is the rotation you posted as using. Thats just shadowstrike over and over again mixed with dodge and steal. That closer to Unload in usage and repetiveness. > > > > Load trap steal to opponent wherein trap dropped. Hidden theif traited so use Sneak attack followed by an immediate shadowstrike. Repeater Pistol 2 repeater dagger 4. When opponet closes Shadowstrike away. reapeter Pistol 2 . Throw in your dodges as needed. Throw in CnD or another stealth source as needed for the #1 sneak attack. you do not have to use just pistol 3 and I do not see why you would. Repeater is not shadowstrike. it again to having a 6th skill on your weapon tool bar. Mixing up 6 skills is less repetitive then relying on just shadowstrike. > > no point in arguing with someone who doesn't understand the definition of spamming. You are the one that used the improper defintion, Spamming is defined as using the same weapon skill over and over again. It does not mean pressing the same button over and over again. In your post as far as weapon skills go you used ONLY shadowstrike. Thats spam. Just because you used a steal or dodge in between does not change that anymore then an unload thief dodging between his unload changes that. The only way your rotation could have been mucked up with this change is if the Repeater lock interferes with your ability to use Shadowstrikes multiple times in a row which is defined as spam. The set is better than it was before. There no use arguing with people who can not make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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