The last balance patch and "tradeoffs"

[LaFurion.3167]

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > It's going to take Anet literally 6 years to add "trade-offs" to every elite spec. I don't know why they decided to start doing this now, so far into this games life. Very bad decision and will just make certain specs feel BAD while others who don't get a trade-off for years get to be overpowered.

>

> They should have done this **from the start like they originally said when Colin said they would be sidegrades** _and anyone playing MMO's from the start laughed and called him full of kitten._

 

Yep but instead now daredevil is gutted. Not to mention the laughable state of dead eye elite skill in wvw and pvp being 1 second #lul.

[Zenith.7301]

The idea that elite specs should be sidegrades to outdated core professions is laughable to begin with.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > 6. Has DPS comparable to Dragon Hunter (heavy armored warrior espec with huge HP pool) on large hitbox, and not even in the top 3 DPSers for small hitboxes; keep in mind, it's "golem DPS" and in the real combat it will be even lower due to the mentioned facts (lowest HP pool + light armor + close combat = you spend more time in downed state or have to disengage to not get downed more often)

>

> Dragon Hunters / Guardians share the same base HP pool with Elementalists and Thieves. Not sure where you're getting this "huge HP pool".

 

Also, in response to your the post you quoted, armor weight plays a minuscule role in the effective sustain of a profession. It's all about stats, traits and skills.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > well, yes anet acknowledged it themselves in the patchnotes that this is just the first step

> Except the first step should have been buffs to core specs, not tweaks to some of the elite ones. "tradeoffs" do not work all that well when the main problem is that a lot of core classes got so overnerfed in order to give a role to elite specs, that they simply do not function well without those elite specs.

>

 

It's a matter of perspective. You might think it's better to buff core specs 1st, they might consider making the core and elites have points of variance to alter more important. I mean, if the buff to core you're talking about has some side or direct effect on the especs too, you're going to be nerfing the especs later anyway by taking their access away to that awesome buff you're talking about.

 

What I'm saying is, hindsight is 20/20.

 

 

[rng.1024]

To be honest alot of issues would be fixed if they, instead of reworking a ton of skills and traits, would just reserve the bottom (elite) specialization for elite specs **and** the profession mechanic enhancing traitlines.

 

Those are:

- Trickery (thief)

- Discipline (warrior)

- Virtues (guardian)

- Invocation (revenant)

- Tools (engineer)

- Arcane (elementalist)

- Soul Reaping (necromancer)

- Beastmastery (ranger)

- Illusions (Mesmer)

 

By putting these traitlines in direct competition with elite specializations you would no longer be able to double down and would have to adjust build and playstyle accordingly, e-specs would be the ones receiving adjustments to compensate instead of buffing/nerfing core values.

 

This would reign in almost every elite spec forcing use of new lines resulting a more distinct difference between core and e-specs allowing both a place in the meta (core because it has full access).

 

This seemed to be the intention when they got introduced, to offer a new way of giving an equal amount of utility. For thief f.ex, you would go from steal being 20 sec cd to 30 sec cd. Let it have the current unblockable to make up for Bountiful Theft, but you lose the boonrip. This way we can keep the range and maybe reward landed steals because of the increased cooldown by giving you some sustain or dmg (like a juicy barrier or 20 vuln for 5 sec).

[Leo G.4501]

*looks up news on upcoming changes finally*

 

Well, it took them long enough. This should have been the case since the beginning so that any new shininess that they add can be really new rather than what the elite specs have been in the past.

 

Looking at the change to steal, I find it funny that people are complaining about it. It's hardly a change at all, just some shorter range. If it were me, I'd have suggested something completely different like:

 

So *Steal* becomes *Swipe*. When I hear *Swipe*, I think of *Sweep* and when I think of *Sweep*, that one game show called Supermarket Sweep where the teams are just rushing and taking anything and everything on the shelves to build up a high dollar value rather than the quality (or specificity) of the item itself.

 

So I'd have made it so that Swipe encapsulates taking everything not nailed down as quickly as possible. Swipe could be blocked, it could miss due to aiming or blindness, it wouldn't shadowstep/teleport and you wouldn't get items for it. Instead of like Steal, Swipe would be a leap skill with an effect like Whirlwind Attack that just tags everyone in the direction you use it while evading others' attacks. Since you're not worried about items you're stealing but the overall value of what you get, Swipe doesn't steal specific items, it steal "Luck". The more stuff you swipe, the luckier you are and incidentally, those you swipe from become "unlucky". Just like Warrior's adrenaline, Thief would have a luck bar that merely determines what skill is available in the F2. What those skills are? Didn't think that far. But the idea of spreading the effects you can attach to Steal on an AoE sound pretty interesting. Stealing boons from multiple foes, dazing multiple enemies in a line or just taking a bunch of people's crap and disappearing right after.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > > 6. Has DPS comparable to Dragon Hunter (heavy armored warrior espec with huge HP pool) on large hitbox, and not even in the top 3 DPSers for small hitboxes; keep in mind, it's "golem DPS" and in the real combat it will be even lower due to the mentioned facts (lowest HP pool + light armor + close combat = you spend more time in downed state or have to disengage to not get downed more often)

> >

> > Dragon Hunters / Guardians share the same base HP pool with Elementalists and Thieves. Not sure where you're getting this "huge HP pool".

>

> Also, in response to your the post you quoted, armor weight plays a minuscule role in the effective sustain of a profession. It's all about stats, traits and skills.

 

Not really, armor weight is a good amount of toughness points worth, and a guardian has a metric ton of blinds and blocks to boot whereas ele's defensives are significantly high cd.

 

It is undeniable that DH is signifcantly more survivable than weaver, and the same can be said about weaver being the most fragile spec to play in the game. Try playing CM fractals on either and tell me DH is not easier.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> It's going to take Anet literally 6 years to add "trade-offs" to every elite spec. I don't know why they decided to start doing this now, so far into this games life. Very bad decision and will just make certain specs feel BAD while others who don't get a trade-off for years get to be overpowered.

 

I thought the same when they started to change chrono no smart company do change their game so drastically after it is already so old or better its not this alone since fall last year they changed a lot of things in gw2. Most of the problems are thing which no one or very few asked for in 50% of the cases they received badly including me.

 

Like mentioned swordweaver is such a thing or better the nerf for staff ele and the push for swordweaver in PvE there are very few bosses were you can use it through being so squishy and Tempest with scepter and horn very few use it and even less can use it properly.

 

Because I mentioned swordweaver deadeye with rifle has similar problems but can't even evade through his stance so fast.(It would make more sense to change just the range with the stance not the dmg)

 

Both are ideas which came with PoF which just that work in a bigger scope both had their shinning period in PvP but were then nerfed so that they both are medicore at best.

 

Druid has fallen completely out of meta for fractals even before the last patch , chrono half too in raids they are properly still fine.

 

It is just Arena.NET tries to hit and miss so far so often its really became a bother the last few months.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > > > 6. Has DPS comparable to Dragon Hunter (heavy armored warrior espec with huge HP pool) on large hitbox, and not even in the top 3 DPSers for small hitboxes; keep in mind, it's "golem DPS" and in the real combat it will be even lower due to the mentioned facts (lowest HP pool + light armor + close combat = you spend more time in downed state or have to disengage to not get downed more often)

> > >

> > > Dragon Hunters / Guardians share the same base HP pool with Elementalists and Thieves. Not sure where you're getting this "huge HP pool".

> >

> > Also, in response to your the post you quoted, armor weight plays a minuscule role in the effective sustain of a profession. It's all about stats, traits and skills.

>

> Not really, armor weight is a good amount of toughness points worth, and a guardian has a metric ton of blinds and blocks to boot whereas ele's defensives are significantly high cd.

>

> It is undeniable that DH is signifcantly more survivable than weaver, and the same can be said about weaver being the most fragile spec to play in the game. Try playing CM fractals on either and tell me DH is not easier.

 

But boons are not armor points. Even a profession with bottom tier armor can use HP and boons to cover that up. Or stealth/teleports. Or consistent HP recovery.

 

So yeah, really. I didn't say it plays no role, I just said it is easily covered up by the massive tsunami of boons thrown around or some other gimmick. Or maybe I'm in bizarro GW2 and now everyone maxes out toughness and HP before other stuff? I dunno, I don't really play the game anymore.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > > > > 6. Has DPS comparable to Dragon Hunter (heavy armored warrior espec with huge HP pool) on large hitbox, and not even in the top 3 DPSers for small hitboxes; keep in mind, it's "golem DPS" and in the real combat it will be even lower due to the mentioned facts (lowest HP pool + light armor + close combat = you spend more time in downed state or have to disengage to not get downed more often)

> > > >

> > > > Dragon Hunters / Guardians share the same base HP pool with Elementalists and Thieves. Not sure where you're getting this "huge HP pool".

> > >

> > > Also, in response to your the post you quoted, armor weight plays a minuscule role in the effective sustain of a profession. It's all about stats, traits and skills.

> >

> > Not really, armor weight is a good amount of toughness points worth, and a guardian has a metric ton of blinds and blocks to boot whereas ele's defensives are significantly high cd.

> >

> > It is undeniable that DH is signifcantly more survivable than weaver, and the same can be said about weaver being the most fragile spec to play in the game. Try playing CM fractals on either and tell me DH is not easier.

>

> But boons are not armor points. Even a profession with bottom tier armor can use HP and boons to cover that up. Or stealth/teleports. Or consistent HP recovery.

>

> So yeah, really. I didn't say it plays no role, I just said it is easily covered up by the massive tsunami of boons thrown around or some other gimmick. Or maybe I'm in bizarro GW2 and now everyone maxes out toughness and HP before other stuff? I dunno, I don't really play the game anymore.

 

Meta weaver pve has barely any boons besides fury and 9-12 might with fire blasts from grandmaster.

 

His defensive tools are tied to earth and water attunement which given the cd on attunements and how intentionally weak earth and water autoattack DPS is, doing so is a huge DPS penalty whereas guardian has access to aegis/conal immunity and his healing on top of his aoe blind from GS all without any penalty. His offset weapon also uses focus which gives him yet more blinds and a ton of blocks built in as well.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > > > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > > > > > 6. Has DPS comparable to Dragon Hunter (heavy armored warrior espec with huge HP pool) on large hitbox, and not even in the top 3 DPSers for small hitboxes; keep in mind, it's "golem DPS" and in the real combat it will be even lower due to the mentioned facts (lowest HP pool + light armor + close combat = you spend more time in downed state or have to disengage to not get downed more often)

> > > > >

> > > > > Dragon Hunters / Guardians share the same base HP pool with Elementalists and Thieves. Not sure where you're getting this "huge HP pool".

> > > >

> > > > Also, in response to your the post you quoted, armor weight plays a minuscule role in the effective sustain of a profession. It's all about stats, traits and skills.

> > >

> > > Not really, armor weight is a good amount of toughness points worth, and a guardian has a metric ton of blinds and blocks to boot whereas ele's defensives are significantly high cd.

> > >

> > > It is undeniable that DH is signifcantly more survivable than weaver, and the same can be said about weaver being the most fragile spec to play in the game. Try playing CM fractals on either and tell me DH is not easier.

> >

> > But boons are not armor points. Even a profession with bottom tier armor can use HP and boons to cover that up. Or stealth/teleports. Or consistent HP recovery.

> >

> > So yeah, really. I didn't say it plays no role, I just said it is easily covered up by the massive tsunami of boons thrown around or some other gimmick. Or maybe I'm in bizarro GW2 and now everyone maxes out toughness and HP before other stuff? I dunno, I don't really play the game anymore.

>

> Meta weaver pve has barely any boons besides fury and 9-12 might with fire blasts from grandmaster.

>

 

You think that might have something to do with how fragile weaver is perceived then? I mean, I just said that sustain tends to be tied to boons, traits, stats and skills and if a weaver doesn't want to keep defensive traits, has few boons and likely uses water/earth attunements on a need-to basis that all adds up to the armor stat not really mattering at all.

 

That might be an interesting trade-off for weaver to make though (that is, it might be perceived that weaver's trade-offs aren't fair so something needs to be added to compensate) in that getting certain boons while attuned to two elements grants barrier and using dual skills greatly boosts armor points for a time. I dunno, I don't play weaver (tempest is much more fun to me). Giving weaver a kind of defensive-offensive style not reliant on boons could improve its team functionality and sustain if paired with support players...or maybe that is already the case but it's mediocre. Like I said, I don't play weaver.

 

 

[otto.5684]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> Would like to discuss whether arenanet plan on continuing in this direction and the trade off for elite specs that they did , and how so.

>

> I've been quite vocal that the swipe change to daredevil was a huge nerf in my opinion. Whether this is reverted or not doesn't matter because if this is justifiable for thief I'd like to give two other examples.

>

> 1) What exactly does engineer trade off to become a holosmith or scrapper? Especially holo Smith. You gain a button that literally is the most power crept ability in the game and completely outshines every other engineer power build from core or scrapper in terms of dps. Will they remove toolbelt for holosmith? Increase cooldown? Because at the moment there is none. Holosmith is just better in every single way shape or form. My thief that hits like a wet noodle anyway got range on steal halved in dd but... holo is unscathed... and the balance difference is huge.

>

> 2)another example is guardian and dragon hunter trade off. Where is it? The f1-f3 skills for dragon hunter do everything core guard f1-f3 do but better. Plus you get traps and longbow. Will core guardian get a new ability like rev did perhaps?

>

> 3) necro. I find it interesting that anet themselves used the loss of death shroud as a trade off but wonder what kind of trade off this even is? They polarized the elite specs for necro. In hot reaper could do both power and condi and it was awesome but now they made reaper power and scourge condi. And core deathshroud is super outdated and just laughable compared to other things in the game like holosmith photon forge while keeping toolbelt skills. Nobody plays core necro except maybe 10 guys who make core wvw videos just for fun...

>

>

> Idk. Just seems like there is a long way to go. It might be the right direction but a loooong way to go..

 

Frankly, you should not take Anet message seriously. Cuz it is not. This is more justification for the changes they are doing the current patch not an overall strategy. There has been no indication in the past of any trade-offs in anything. Elites are power creep. That’s it. There is not one class that has a meta core build in any game except thief sword/dagger in sPvP. Even core guardian that was good in sPvP was significantly nerfed and is out of the meta.

 

Do not let the PR talk deceive. Anet balance devs currently do not have an overall strategy and barely monitor.