Maikimaik.1974 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > Kids cant buy it without a credit card. Cant get a credit card of you're not 18. Not only do paysafecards exist, which you can get at any gas station no matter how old you are, but Gw2 literally sells gem cards in many different stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexxxDelta.1806 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > This sounds like the basis of all capitalism, one entity trying to convince an unwitting customer through manipulative methods in order to (prey upon) or entice the customer into parting with their money in order to buy a product to the financial benefit of the entity using manipulating tactics. > > > > Not quite. What ou're talking about is not capitalism per se, but something called predatory capitalism. Notice, how predatory capitalism is generally considered to be bad, and something that actually _does_ need regulations. Unregulated capitalism _is_ bad, and if left alone eventually and unavoidably damages the community at large. This has been proved beyond doubt many times over throughout human history. > > > > > > > > > As far as limits go, we all know they dont stop there and gambling isnt hurting anyone with no self control. You can lose self control with ANYTHING and regulating similar addictive products, cigarettes, alchohol, drugs have met with spectacular failure, historically. > > > > All of the products you mentioned _are_ heavily regulated now, if you haven't noticed. The world isn't worse for it. > > > > > > > > > So no, I dont think they should regulate products in this manner. Now If the product contains lead or is radioactive, then sure. > > > > Why? People should have enough self-control and awareness to check for things like that after all. If their get poisoned, it's their own fault. [/sarcasm] > > > > (before you start shouting, notice that is exactly your own argument, just applied to the food instead of gambling). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need food to live, gambling is optional as are cigarettes and alcohol. > > > > > > It's like saying some people out there are addicted to alcohol therefore nobody should have it and we should shut it down. They shouldnt be allowed to advertise it because that's manipulative and because children exist, they might want it, so it's clearly predatory. Prohibition anyone? > > > > Last time I checked you couldn't sell alcohol to kids. If we are to use your analogy, then lootboxes should be banned for people under the age of 18/21 right? > > > > I'm fine with that... > > Kids cant buy it without a credit card. Cant get a credit card of you're not 18. > > If we want to hold people accountable hold the parents accountable. If lootboxes are true gambling, which I dont think they are. Then parents should be arrested for not watching their kids or for willingly giving them a credit card to use for gambling. That's what would happen to a parent if they took their kid to a casino in vegas to gamble. Don't move the goalposts, as people said above, prepaids exist. If I'm underage and go with my allowance to buy liquor, the owner will get in trouble if they sell me alcohol. If the casino **allows** me to engage in gambling activities as underage, they get in trouble. If the nightclub sells me booze to get wasted, they get in trouble if anyone bothers to pursue it legally. Do you see the pattern now or do I need to spell it out more? You don't get to decide who is being held accountable, the law does. I mean, someone with a degree in psychology should have figured that out by now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > This sounds like the basis of all capitalism, one entity trying to convince an unwitting customer through manipulative methods in order to (prey upon) or entice the customer into parting with their money in order to buy a product to the financial benefit of the entity using manipulating tactics. > > > > > Not quite. What ou're talking about is not capitalism per se, but something called predatory capitalism. Notice, how predatory capitalism is generally considered to be bad, and something that actually _does_ need regulations. Unregulated capitalism _is_ bad, and if left alone eventually and unavoidably damages the community at large. This has been proved beyond doubt many times over throughout human history. > > > > > > > > > > > As far as limits go, we all know they dont stop there and gambling isnt hurting anyone with no self control. You can lose self control with ANYTHING and regulating similar addictive products, cigarettes, alchohol, drugs have met with spectacular failure, historically. > > > > > All of the products you mentioned _are_ heavily regulated now, if you haven't noticed. The world isn't worse for it. > > > > > > > > > > > So no, I dont think they should regulate products in this manner. Now If the product contains lead or is radioactive, then sure. > > > > > Why? People should have enough self-control and awareness to check for things like that after all. If their get poisoned, it's their own fault. [/sarcasm] > > > > > (before you start shouting, notice that is exactly your own argument, just applied to the food instead of gambling). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need food to live, gambling is optional as are cigarettes and alcohol. > > > > > > > > It's like saying some people out there are addicted to alcohol therefore nobody should have it and we should shut it down. They shouldnt be allowed to advertise it because that's manipulative and because children exist, they might want it, so it's clearly predatory. Prohibition anyone? > > > > > > Last time I checked you couldn't sell alcohol to kids. If we are to use your analogy, then lootboxes should be banned for people under the age of 18/21 right? > > > > > > I'm fine with that... > > > > Kids cant buy it without a credit card. Cant get a credit card of you're not 18. > > > > If we want to hold people accountable hold the parents accountable. If lootboxes are true gambling, which I dont think they are. Then parents should be arrested for not watching their kids or for willingly giving them a credit card to use for gambling. That's what would happen to a parent if they took their kid to a casino in vegas to gamble. > > Don't move the goalposts, as people said above, prepaids exist. If I'm underage and go with my allowance to buy liquor, the owner will get in trouble if they sell me alcohol. If the casino **allows** me to engage in gambling activities as underage, they get in trouble. If the nightclub sells me booze to get wasted, they get in trouble if anyone bothers to pursue it legally. Do you see the pattern now or do I need to spell it out more? > > You don't get to decide who is being held accountable, the law does. I mean, someone with a degree in psychology should have figured that out by now... Good thing loot boxes arent gambling. Since I cant take my winnings from black lion chests and cash out in dollars with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"TheGrimm.5624" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > I'd like to add that as of yet, I've not seen anyone who defend lootbox agree that oversight and regulations are needed, which to me is baffling : Food itself is regulated, it is checked, it can be traced, it has standarts, it has parts of the governments assigned to constantly check on how it's produced/imported/distributed/priced. And thanks to that, you know that when you buy meat, you're not buying cat meat. > > I don't understand why people equate this to food. I have to eat food to live. I don't have to buy loot boxes to live. The difference here is the have to. If there is a have to then there is more of a case of regulation. I am in agreement that regulations typically aim to make things safer and quite justified in spots and are needed. Not feeling it here. Can't talk to all the games out there but been in a few so far. The consumer is the oversight in this case. Their authority is their wallet. I think that's more of why you are seeing less of people saying well I could see some, because all the tools are already in place. Plus some additional resistance is in knowing that there are a lot of issues out there that need more time and attention than this that aren't being addressed and it can be frustrating to see government focus on this when so much else needs time and attention. People are drinking contaminated water. Water is a must have, why is that even a thing, because regulation is needed there. Don't get me wrong I am not giving business's any free outs but we are acting like this is a pharmaceutical company that is providing live saving drugs and playing a guess the bottle game with you. We should all be helping people with addictions if they want it and make sure there are resources for them, but for the majority of people, own up to your actions. > > https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-05-06/contaminated-water-from-teflon-chemical-found-in-43-states-report-finds If you read the entirety of my past 2 posts, you'd see that I didn't mention only food as being regulated for good reasons, but also many other staples of every day life with a very important effect on normal life, and then I mentionned recreational activities as being regulated. Why I choose food in particular ? Because food is simple, and everywhere, it'd be complex to regulate it, but it is done, and for good Reasons. Without regulations as I mentionned, you'd be buying meat, without knowing where it came from. Hence you could end up with a package just labelled "Meat" without saying the weight, origin, provider, safety check the percent of animal product, and the percent of preservatives if used, or even the type of animal it came from. That's what regulation helps with. Lootboxes being regulated doesn't mean they cant exist anymore, it means that they become -transparent-. If you want to know the knitty gritty detail of what's in them and at what rate, you'd know so, if they were regulated. Nothing else would have to change. Why do companies prefer removing them instead of regulating them ? Because then it'd make it blatant how low the odds are, and discourage many from indulging in them. Here is a good interpretation of why food regulation is important, without necessarily removing the food in question. The video in question is John Oliver's segment on Sugar, it can be viewed on YouTube for any who are curious. I prefer not to post a link since the language might infringe on forum ToU Edit : In hindsight, maybe John Oliver doesn't fit that much in there. I'll retract that. I still continue to believe food regulation and lootbox regulation goes hand in hand. Regulation safeguard customers. In that particular case, John mentions that if we knew how much sugar was in everything we consumed, we'd certainly be a lot more mindful of how much food and what type of food we consume. That's why most companies avoid making it obvious, and why gaming companies do not show the odds. I understand the concerns that there are more pressing issues at hand. That is a given. The problem with that mindset is that there Always will be more pressing issues at hand. And the longer the practice is left unregulated and unchecked, the more it reinforce and becomes harder to counter. Lobbyist will prepare and fight regulation of any type. There will Always be a more important issue, but important issues take time to discuss and find a correct solution for. In this particular case, telling the gaming industry to either put the odds the lootboxes on display, change the Economy model of their games, or be fined, is not actually too complicated, it's an issue that would be fairly easily raised and passed in legislation. Enforcing it will take a bit longer, but once it's started, it's out of the government's legislative branch's hands, and they can return to discussing hard issues on the long term, or moving on with smaller issues like this. A small problem can easily snowball into something much stronger. Microtransactions werent nearly as predatory 10 years ago as they are now, it's the effect of not putting in the checks for a long period of time, and a trend that will not change until it is addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > You need food to live, gambling is optional as are cigarettes and alcohol. > > It's like saying some people out there are addicted to alcohol therefore nobody should have it and we should shut it down. No, it's like saying alcohol and cigarettes should be regulated. _Which they are_, if you haven't noticed. And i see no negative consequences of that. > They shouldnt be allowed to advertise it because that's manipulative and because children exist, they might want it, so it's clearly predatory. Oh, but they _aren't_ allowed to advertise it, outside of very, very regulated avenues, for all the reasons you mentioned above. Weren't you aware of that? > Prohibition anyone? Prohibition is a full ban. That indeed doesn't work, as long as there's enough demand for something, because it moves that market completely outside of government oversight. That's not something we're actually discussing though. The things this thread is about, however - _regulations_ - work perfectly fine. So, yeah, it's exactly like alcohol and cigarettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > This sounds like the basis of all capitalism, one entity trying to convince an unwitting customer through manipulative methods in order to (prey upon) or entice the customer into parting with their money in order to buy a product to the financial benefit of the entity using manipulating tactics. > > > Not quite. What ou're talking about is not capitalism per se, but something called predatory capitalism. Notice, how predatory capitalism is generally considered to be bad, and something that actually _does_ need regulations. Unregulated capitalism _is_ bad, and if left alone eventually and unavoidably damages the community at large. This has been proved beyond doubt many times over throughout human history. > > > > > > > As far as limits go, we all know they dont stop there and gambling isnt hurting anyone with no self control. You can lose self control with ANYTHING and regulating similar addictive products, cigarettes, alchohol, drugs have met with spectacular failure, historically. > > > All of the products you mentioned _are_ heavily regulated now, if you haven't noticed. The world isn't worse for it. > > > > > > > So no, I dont think they should regulate products in this manner. Now If the product contains lead or is radioactive, then sure. > > > Why? People should have enough self-control and awareness to check for things like that after all. If their get poisoned, it's their own fault. [/sarcasm] > > > (before you start shouting, notice that is exactly your own argument, just applied to the food instead of gambling). > > > > > > > > > > You need food to live, gambling is optional as are cigarettes and alcohol. > > > > It's like saying some people out there are addicted to alcohol therefore nobody should have it and we should shut it down. > No, it's like saying alcohol and cigarettes should be regulated. _Which they are_, if you haven't noticed. And i see no negative consequences of that. > > > They shouldnt be allowed to advertise it because that's manipulative and because children exist, they might want it, so it's clearly predatory. > Oh, but they _aren't_ allowed to advertise it, outside of very, very regulated avenues, for all the reasons you mentioned above. Weren't you aware of that? > > So, yeah, it's exactly like alcohol and cigarettes. > > You can advertise alchohol? Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"TheGrimm.5624" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > I'd like to add that as of yet, I've not seen anyone who defend lootbox agree that oversight and regulations are needed, which to me is baffling : Food itself is regulated, it is checked, it can be traced, it has standarts, it has parts of the governments assigned to constantly check on how it's produced/imported/distributed/priced. And thanks to that, you know that when you buy meat, you're not buying cat meat. > > I don't understand why people equate this to food. I have to eat food to live. I don't have to buy loot boxes to live. Also, you can die from poorly prepared food. All I need is, say, link https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/burden/index.html Given that people can die from either lack of food or bad food; I think that's a pretty convincing argument for regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > This sounds like the basis of all capitalism, one entity trying to convince an unwitting customer through manipulative methods in order to (prey upon) or entice the customer into parting with their money in order to buy a product to the financial benefit of the entity using manipulating tactics. > > > > Not quite. What ou're talking about is not capitalism per se, but something called predatory capitalism. Notice, how predatory capitalism is generally considered to be bad, and something that actually _does_ need regulations. Unregulated capitalism _is_ bad, and if left alone eventually and unavoidably damages the community at large. This has been proved beyond doubt many times over throughout human history. > > > > > > > > > As far as limits go, we all know they dont stop there and gambling isnt hurting anyone with no self control. You can lose self control with ANYTHING and regulating similar addictive products, cigarettes, alchohol, drugs have met with spectacular failure, historically. > > > > All of the products you mentioned _are_ heavily regulated now, if you haven't noticed. The world isn't worse for it. > > > > > > > > > So no, I dont think they should regulate products in this manner. Now If the product contains lead or is radioactive, then sure. > > > > Why? People should have enough self-control and awareness to check for things like that after all. If their get poisoned, it's their own fault. [/sarcasm] > > > > (before you start shouting, notice that is exactly your own argument, just applied to the food instead of gambling). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You need food to live, gambling is optional as are cigarettes and alcohol. > > > > > > It's like saying some people out there are addicted to alcohol therefore nobody should have it and we should shut it down. > > No, it's like saying alcohol and cigarettes should be regulated. _Which they are_, if you haven't noticed. And i see no negative consequences of that. > > > > > They shouldnt be allowed to advertise it because that's manipulative and because children exist, they might want it, so it's clearly predatory. > > Oh, but they _aren't_ allowed to advertise it, outside of very, very regulated avenues, for all the reasons you mentioned above. Weren't you aware of that? > > > > So, yeah, it's exactly like alcohol and cigarettes. > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. I suppose if you put it in a completely selfish view like that, there is not much to discuss. I'm going to play with straw with you : If some kid brings a gun to school in a different town than where your kids go to school, it doesn't need to be regulated : they're other people's kids, it doesn't affect you. This is a Very slippery slope you're adopting, one that implies you're not affected Now, but doesn't explain how it would help you when you become affected (for example, with a family member falling into the trap, getting into debts, and you having to pay off their debts as a family member). You just cannot use that type of argument. Individual values do not factor into this. Regulations dont need to affect Everyone at a given time to be necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > You can advertise alchohol? Sure. What do you think this is?  Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Ensign.2189" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Nah, if anything, casinos are continuously lobbying for making gambling restrictions _easier_. They just want them to apply to everyone in the business. They wouldn't want any potential competition to be able to operate _without the very same restrictions they have to face_, after all. No sane person would want that. > > Exactly. For instance, Belgian casinos are very much in support of the rule that any online gambling platform operator also owns and operates a physical casino within Belgium. They have made absolutely sure that totally reasonable rule applies to everyone in the industry, including A.Net! > > All A.Net would need to do to comply with Belgian gambling regulations is to open a physical casino in Belgium. After all that is the same restriction all the casinos have to face, and no sane person would want to allow new entrants to operate without the same restrictions. > > Does it count if NCSoft teams up with Konami to open some Guild Wars 2 pachinko ... oh wait that has its own loopholes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > You can advertise alchohol? > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neural.1824 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said: > > @"Neural.1824" said: > > Oh noes.. game companies might be forced to focus on retaining customers and making money through the quality of their game, not gimmicks! The horror! > > So...you really think that if profits are in danger, the big corporations' first impulse will be "We must make our game more awesome, stat! Hire more and better devs!" > I'm betting on them not. Big corporations aren't going to change. They will scramble to find more ways to squeeze money out of the players, and then finally go extinct while smaller independent companies fill the void that the big companies have left. Quality of content (news flash: quality doesn't *require* DX12, or hollywood star voice acting, etc.) will become the rule again for whether or not people choose to put money into a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedkae.4980 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 I hope so. These things are scummy. Anet needs to produce quality content to generate cash, no resort to sum tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** Only in Belgium this did shut down Gatcha's and people lost all their accounts and money/time put into the game. I don't think lootboxes or gatcha's (while they involve RNG which is a Gamble in essence as is many other things in life), are a gamble in the traditional legal sense that you would see in a casino which has regulations. The only reason Casino's are regulated is because money is exchanged both ways and while it is entertainment the reality is that those laws aren't really there to protect and regulate the customer they are there so the government gets its share of the profits. The payout of the gamble with lootboxes has no monetary value (sure you could illegally sell your account, but there is no official way to exchange it for money). its only real value is entertainment, just like logging into GW2 , there's no guarantee that mob will give you a precursor when you kill it, but if it does - wow that was fun. If it doesn't should we call for regulation? Sorry I'd rather have less laws then more, its optional entertainment and doesn't need to be regulated as its not like traditional gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronoPinoyX.7923 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** > > Only in Belgium this did shut down Gatcha's and people lost all their accounts and money/time put into the game. I don't think lootboxes or gatcha's (while they involve RNG which is a Gamble), I don't think its gambling in the legally traditional sense that you would see in a casino. The payout of the gamble has no monetary value. You can't exchange it for money only entertainment. > > Sorry I'd rather have less laws then more, its optional entertainment and doesn't need to be regulated as its not like traditional gambling. Again, the reason that happened isn't because of Belgian law, it's because those games didn't even bother to try making changes to their game so that it doesn't solely rely on RNG Boxes. Gacha based games literally just killed themselves by relying on Gacha for revenue so that's the fault of the developers/publishers since they didn't have any form of long term plan to keep their games running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > > > > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > > > > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > > > > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > > > > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > > > > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > > > > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > > > > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** > > > > Only in Belgium this did shut down Gatcha's and people lost all their accounts and money/time put into the game. I don't think lootboxes or gatcha's (while they involve RNG which is a Gamble), I don't think its gambling in the legally traditional sense that you would see in a casino. The payout of the gamble has no monetary value. You can't exchange it for money only entertainment. > > > > Sorry I'd rather have less laws then more, its optional entertainment and doesn't need to be regulated as its not like traditional gambling. > > Again, the reason that happened isn't because of Belgian law, it's because those games didn't even bother to try making changes to their game so that it doesn't solely rely on RNG Boxes. Gacha based games literally just killed themselves by relying on Gacha for revenue so that's the fault of the developers/publishers since they didn't have any form of long term plan to keep their games running. great I like gatcha games and I don't like laws that are ridiculous as I don't have a gambling problem so I really hope this doesn't pass. Will you say the same thing if GW2 folds because of no more Black lion chest sales? I guess you'll just say "oh well they weren't very smart" great and then the game is shutdown - no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** Sure but this has become a debate about lootboxes in general not only the regulation. On the quote that gambling has increased do you have a source for that? I've only found that their is a correlation between gambling problems and lootboxes. Not in which direction this correlation goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronoPinoyX.7923 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > > > > > > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > > > > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > > > > > > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > > > > > > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > > > > > > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > > > > > > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > > > > > > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > > > > > > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** > > > > > > Only in Belgium this did shut down Gatcha's and people lost all their accounts and money/time put into the game. I don't think lootboxes or gatcha's (while they involve RNG which is a Gamble), I don't think its gambling in the legally traditional sense that you would see in a casino. The payout of the gamble has no monetary value. You can't exchange it for money only entertainment. > > > > > > Sorry I'd rather have less laws then more, its optional entertainment and doesn't need to be regulated as its not like traditional gambling. > > > > Again, the reason that happened isn't because of Belgian law, it's because those games didn't even bother to try making changes to their game so that it doesn't solely rely on RNG Boxes. Gacha based games literally just killed themselves by relying on Gacha for revenue so that's the fault of the developers/publishers since they didn't have any form of long term plan to keep their games running. > > great I like gatcha games and I don't like laws that are ridiculous as I don't have a gambling problem so I really hope this doesn't pass. Will you say the same thing if GW2 folds because of no more Black lion chest sales? I guess you'll just say "oh well they weren't very smart" great and then the game is shutdown - no thanks. Of course I'd say the exact same thing. I've said it to every single games I played that relied solely on Lootboxes for their revenue. Do you know the difference between those games and GW2? Guild Wars 2's cash shop actually has things that are more relevant to the game than the BLC. The BLC is added incentive, it doesn't have anything remotely important on it that would cause the game to decline should it disappear. They can put the contents of the BLC (which are mostly the cosmetics) and put them in the cash shop just as well for limited time and they can still profit from it. I mean the biggest example of a game out there right now that has not once relied on a Lootbox and still runs to this day is Guild Wars 1. Yes GW1 is on Maintenance Mode right now but that only happened because they couldn't work what they wanted in GW2 to GW1. Guild Wars 1 is the perfect definition of a self sustained game without reliance on lootboxes. It literally has all its contents available from within the game itself aside from a few costumes and to this day, ANet still profits from GW1 without even doing anything to the game aside from a few tweaks and fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** > > Only in Belgium this did shut down Gatcha's and people lost all their accounts and money/time put into the game. I don't think lootboxes or gatcha's (while they involve RNG which is a Gamble in essence as is many other things in life), are a gamble in the traditional legal sense that you would see in a casino which has regulations. The only reason Casino's are regulated is because money is exchanged both ways and while it is entertainment the reality is that those laws aren't really there to protect and regulate the customer they are there so the government gets its share of the profits. The payout of the gamble with lootboxes has no monetary value (sure you could illegally sell your account, but there is no official way to exchange it for money). its only real value is entertainment, just like logging into GW2 , there's no guarantee that mob will give you a precursor when you kill it, but if it does - wow that was fun. If it doesn't should we call for regulation? > > Sorry I'd rather have less laws then more, its optional entertainment and doesn't need to be regulated as its not like traditional gambling. Sorry, but I have to correct that again, you're Factually Wrong. People did not lose their accounts, or money, or time. Games have not been banned. Sale of a product within that game have been. Guild wars 2 players from Belgium can certify, they can still play, their account is still intact, what they acquired, even through black lion chests before, is still theirs. As for the rest of your argument, I wont bother trying to explain facts and sense to a wall. Regardless of the argument, this is not my country. What you want is what you want. What the situation needs is what the situation needs. It ends there. I'm not going to be voting for that law, I'm not an US Citizen. All I can add are established facts, and examples. Past that, it is of literally no concerns to me. You still disappoint in term of debate : I expected better than a "Because I dont wanna" and factually wrong deformation of what other stated (You still persist with lootbags when it has been debunked Numerous times that doesn't actually falls into lootbox territory). At this point you're either doing this on purpose, or cannot get out of your loop, either way, I have better things to do than to repeat what I and others have explained, numerous times. Believe what you will. > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > Their have been posters who want to ban them tho. Just a minor correction. > > > > Indeed, but that's not what the bill itself is about, therefore those posters are not actually properly informed. > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > You can advertise alchohol? > > > > > > Sure. What do you think this is?  > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like i said, it's heavily regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly I wouldn't care if they resumed advertising cigarettes as long as people cant smoke around me. Think about why they are regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone smokes in public as a stranger I get second hand smoke. Someone drinks, they could get in a car and cause an accident, all of those things affect me as a stranger and should be regulated. But gambling? If someone loses 20k dollars how does that affect me? It doesnt. > > > > > > That someone might be your family, you know. It would affect you then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why regulations on gambling should even be on par with alcohol or cigarettes. > > > > > > What are you saying, you've just said few posts above that they should be exactly like alcohol or cigarettes. Was it because you weren't aware that those are regulated? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope family being affected isn't the same as a stranger. That's a personal issue. They put tons of added sugar in every food imaginable to get you addicted, fat and cause diabetes and auto immune disorders and yet those arent regulated. They even make manipulative commercials directed at children and I couldnt care less because when some person indulges in sugar (the most addictive substance on earth) it doesnt affect me. And if it affects a family member that indulges, in it, then its on them to moderate themselves. > > > > > > > > > > A family member that indulges in gambling, or fatty /sugary foods and then that affects me emotionally, is no different then a person who plays sports or joins the military. If something goes wrong then it's a personal issue, not a good excuse to ban those activities outright. > > > > > > > > Riiiight, what happens when that doesn't happen Specifically to you, but about one for every 10 household ? It's not a personal issue, so it still doesn't need regulation ? > > > > And again, dont deform what we're saying : Regulate. Not Ban. > > > > > > It doesn't affect me. Its no different then if i went and drank water to the point at which I drowned. Should we regulate how much water we give out because I went and did that? Think about my family members? Maybe we should card people to buy water or perhaps tell them that they cant buy more then 1 gallon at a time? No its ridiculous. > > > > > > Here's an even better analogy. Video games are addictive just in general. I've decided to play a video game 21 hrs a day 7 days a week. My family is devastated. I believe we should regulate the amount of hours that ANY person can play on all mmo's because i PERSONALLY have no self control and refuse to get any. Instead we need a blanket law that will simply not let anyone log into any mmo for more then 2hrs per day. Think about my family and children? Should we regulate this way? I don't think so... > > > > > > Only in this case of regulation of loot boxes it will ban it. They shut numerous Gatcha games down in Belgium and people lost their entire accounts. There were tons of other games that couldn't make up the revenue and simply closed down in protest and again more people lost their enjoyment and accounts all in the name of protecting children whom aren't supervised. Gw2 stopped selling black lion chests, and never replaced it with anything and I'm sure its sales were permanently diminished in Belgium, if they do that here it might be enough to close down the game. > > > > A regulation is an Oversight. Something that checks on it, makes sure it follows clear rules. How is that preventing anyone who enjoy this as a past time to continue enjoying it ? Really I do not understand it. Regulation gives you more information about something you partake in. > > > > Belgium did not shut those games down, companies themselves refused to regulate and provide the oversight needed for the government to check on them, and Simply closed their services On their own. Not to mention some of those companies actually used the outrage generated and redirected them to the legislation using those very misinterpretations you're using : "They're banning it, we aren't". That was never the case : Companies actually stopped their services before the law was even put in place. Actually I think you're being confused because Belgium specifically banned lootboxes. Belgium actually **bans unlicensed gambling outright**, the only thing it ruled out, was that lootboxes were gambling, which you yourself recognize they are, and pretty much everyone under the sun does. The US **doesn't ban gambling**, therefore lootboxes arent actually at risk of being banned, all that's going to happen is that regulation applied to gambling **-currently, at this very instant-** could Apply to lootboxes. It doesn't state it intend to ban them, at all. Belgium did not ban lootboxes at random, it had Already banned gambling, it Simply ruled, like everyone else, that lootboxes were gambling, and thus it fell Under the same regulation. Belgium is not anti video game. > > > > Another thing you clearly dont understand is that black lion chests dont represent a large part of revenue for Guild wars 2 compared to mount skins, outfits, armor skins in general : People farm keys, it's such a common practice it's even recommended to new players. Those that dont farm in such a way buy the keys with gold, which doesn't generate gem revenue for Anet either. The people who spend gems on keys are a minority. That's nowhere near enough to shut down the game, you're overreacting. > > > > Here, let me give you an actual example of already implemented self regulation : Nexon owns a game called Mabinogi who is known for it's heavy indulgence on gachapons (so lootboxes). Until recently, they didn't display the percents of rate of acquisition of each individual item in those gachas. When legislations started to show interest in Hawaii, they started to put percents on all their gachas. It didn't stop people buying them, in fact it didn't change much of anything, the difference was that now the rates are clearly expressed in put in Numbers, it's a form of self regulation, but regulation regardless. Did it spell the end of gachapons for that game ? Absolutely not. Did it cave it's earnings ? It's too soon to say, but judging by the market of items acquired from those boxes, being sold by players, the rates are similar to how they were before percents were introduced. What changed however is that players -greatly- appreciated to know what they were paying for, and what their chances realistically are. It also put that specific company much closer to being given a pass, than a company who continues obscuring it's rates. > > > > What I'm trying to explain to you is that when a problem becomes endemic enough to be recognized and acknowledged, you need a structure to oversee, monitor and regulate it to avoid it spinning out of control. Currently, there is no such thing, but everyone agrees that gambling rates, particularly amongst the youngests have increased over many years. Something need to check on it, just like any evolving problem, and the industry is Not taking care of it. > > > > **TLDR : Belgium requires that you own a gambling license to perform gambling services, Under it's recognition that Lootboxes are gambling, it required that game companies acquire such a license to continue selling their lootboxes within the law, the gaming companies refused and pulled their services to avoid being fined for Unlicensed gambling** > > Sure but this has become a debate about lootboxes in general not only the regulation. > > On the quote that gambling has increased do you have a source for that? I've only found that their is a correlation between gambling problems and lootboxes. Not in which direction this correlation goes I crossed references between NAFGAH and NCPG websites and reports, as well as articles who quoted those two organisations in particular. Some of it date back to 2016 mind, but in term of statistics, that's still fairly solid material. NAFGAH actually had a piece that compared rates of problem gambling compared to other countries in a similar position, the US apparently ranks fairly high up there. None in particular shows any graphs though, which is what I was really trying to find, and am surprised not to find, usually any such evolution is accurately graphed, but I cant find anything recent, or refering to a year by year progression. To be fair, those reference gambling addiction in General. Lootbox themselves, I simply extrapolated from the politics themselves, which true enough dont share their sources. I Believe it was mentionned during an hearing when the Hawaii governor first tried to tackle the issue with the gaming industry representatives. I do find studies, but they're by the UK government's Gambling commission, so they study their own population, the rise is sharp however : https://www.ft.com/content/7044b142-7313-11e8-aa31-31da4279a601 Even if it doesnt show 2018 and 2019, I seriously doubt the trend would suddenly abate and take a nosedive. This shows an excerpt from the Journal of Gambling Studies, which I -think- is US based ? https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Challenge-of-Online-Gambling%3A-The-Effect-of-on-Chóliz/1a3b5d920cd0b3789917ca39b0459cc651b9f1d7 It's older, and stop graphing at 2015, but still shows that upward trend. Lootboxes however still do not appear as a specific item of it, probably because the spotlight was shown more recently. I'd say, studies on -lootboxes- specifically haven't been concluded. Studies on gambling though, there are so here and there, not all of them public though it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telwyn.1630 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 when ever I do get keys I and open chests I just sell the stuff or unlock the mini's, dyes, now if the black lions boxes are force to banned from the game I just sell mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 > @"Telwyn.1630" said: > when ever I do get keys I and open chests I just sell the stuff or unlock the mini's, dyes, now if the black lions boxes are force to banned from the game I just sell mine. Really, I persist in saying that the Belgium case is due to Unlicensed gambling being banned, this doesn't affect the US, the US have broader, lax gambling regulations, lootboxes arent at a risk of being banned. What they want is for them to be more transparent and less available to underrage teens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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