The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are. > > > > We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success. > > > > If the goal is to adress a problem: > > It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could. > > > > So basically what you are asking me is: > > Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe? > > > > Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often. > > So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches. Then why do we have this scenario with this less frequent balance patch schedule? With this schedule, things like that will take way way longer to fix and problems that shouldn't exist more than 2 weeks exists for 3-4 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are. > > > > > > We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success. > > > > > > If the goal is to adress a problem: > > > It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could. > > > > > > So basically what you are asking me is: > > > Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe? > > > > > > Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often. > > > > So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches. > > Then why do we have this scenario with this less frequent balance patch schedule? With this schedule, things like that will take way way longer to fix and problems that shouldn't exist more than 2 weeks exists for 3-4 months. because Anet has a process for balancing ... somehow you have gotten the idea in your head that if they release patches more frequently, they can do more balancing. That's absurd. There is a finite bandwidth to what they can do ... and they are doing it now. You can't assume anything about how they do things to conclude more frequent is 'better' because you don't know how they do it. You aren't changing their ability to do more work by having more frequent balance patches. That makes zero sense. Problems will still exist for as long as they do now because there isn't an infinite amount of bandwidth to do the work. If the number of patches scales up, the number of changes for each patch scales down; the capacity to the work is the same, no matter how you want to carve up the patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Are players going to be MORE satisfied because Anet put 10 patches in and got the same result if they only put in 1? I don't think people are being honest with themselves here ... desperate people rarely are. > > > > > > > > We've seen imbalances, bugs, skill breaking issues go on for a long time, often spamming multiple patches without being adressed and in your opinion speed of tackling a problem in the case of anet doesnt garantee success. > > > > > > > > If the goal is to adress a problem: > > > > It could take 10 patches over x months or it could take the 1 patch to be fixed, it could be adressed by the 1st patch of the 10 or the the 1 patch every x months could miss the mark, everyone of the 10 patches could possibly adress it over these x months or only the 1 patch over these x months could. > > > > > > > > So basically what you are asking me is: > > > > Would i rather have 1/10th of the w8 between each patch for a maybe or the full w8 per patch for a maybe? > > > > > > > > Id take the 1/10th of a w8, tho i consider having 10 patches every x months or 1 to be kind of an extreme disparity. I think an ok starting point would be 2 patches every quarter and then one big patch every half a year or so. Dont forget anet themselves talked about doing more balance patches so they too see value in having them occur more often. > > > > > > So you just want more frequent and could care less about what the result is? I don't see the value of that. You still get the same result AND the risk is higher for bugs, unintended results, etc ... I mean, look at Soul Eater getting nerfed next Tuesday ... seems to me that's EXACTLY what the kind of scenarios you would see with more frequent patches. > > > > Then why do we have this scenario with this less frequent balance patch schedule? With this schedule, things like that will take way way longer to fix and problems that shouldn't exist more than 2 weeks exists for 3-4 months. > > because Anet has a process for balancing ... somehow you have gotten the idea in your head that if they release patches more frequently, they can do more balancing. That's absurd. There is a finite bandwidth to what they can do ... and they are doing it now. You can't assume anything about how they do things to conclude more frequent is 'better' because you don't know how they do it. > > You aren't changing their ability to do more work by having more frequent balance patches. That makes zero sense. Problems will still exist for as long as they do now because there isn't an infinite amount of bandwidth to do the work. If the number of patches scales up, the number of changes for each patch scales down; the capacity to the work is the same, no matter how you want to carve up the patches. I am gonna quote my quoted post here since you dismissed it if you know what I mean ;) > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > The faster you can brake up the meta the better. At best ppl are just asking for one way to play the game for months on end with longer time in-between updates. > > > > > > > > This shows a big misunderstanding of the goals of balancing. It's not there to break up meta and meta never goes away either. Also, it is important to maintain so sense of continuity in a class. For the meta to 'break up', you need to smash something pretty hard. > > > > > > Braking up meta is part of that goal of balancing. > > > > You don't know if that is a goal of Anet's balancing. I can't actually think of a reason Anet would make that a goal of their balancing; just changing meta from one thing to another has really low value. Again, that sounds more like wishful thinking than an actual useful think to do. If you need a reminder of the 'goals' Anet sets for balance, you can check my sig. > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > I am 99% sure that ANet would like to offer more balance updates, too. The question is: how do they pay for it, given the resource limitations and plans that they already have? > > > > > > Like with most of the stuff they do for the game its an investent. They invest in faster balance with the hope it will lead to overall better balance and that will bring/retain more players. > > > > This is more of that wishful thinking going on.... why would ANYONE at this point in the game think faster balancing efforts would lead to a result different than what we seen for the last 7 years? That doesn't make sense. If anything, if Anet is rushed to more frequent balancing patches ... I would expect WORSE results, not better. > > > > The fact is this: balancing is a low value proposition because balance efforts isn't something players in this game value highly enough to invest in. > > OH, it does make sense. You are wrong if you think that faster balance wouldn't make the game better when for example there was a clearly broken scourge spec after pof release and cause this game has a balance every 3-4 months that actually changes stuff and doesn't fix skill bugs. This killed the pvp scene even more. Imagine having a spec that kills ppl just by spamming instant abilities and that class is there for 3 months and after it gets nerfed it isn't nerfed enough and then there's another 3 months of that horror until they finally fix it after 6 months of just pure frustration. > > What does this do to a game? Clearly, it's not making the people stay in the game. > > Pvp scene in gw2 is pretty much dead solely just because of too slow and poor balance patches and nothing else. > > As far as their balancing goes, the team works on balance a week or 2 before the patch and it's made purely from statistics and internal discussions on where they wanna go in the future. The rest of the 3-4 months the balance team works as part of other projects on anet. > > The balance feedback discord that gave anet 4-5 months worth of balance suggestions was ignored completely and anet used purely statistics to balance. As a result the pvp and wvw are in a really bad shape and after seeing the recent balance preview it isn't getting any better. > > Your general attitude makes me think you work for anet to just only buff forums and cause extreme toxicity to annoy people who actually want to get a better game. Nice try 5/5. Especially wanna highlight this part: > As far as their balancing goes, the team works on balance a week or 2 before the patch and it's made purely from statistics and internal discussions on where they wanna go in the future. The rest of the 3-4 months the balance team works as part of other projects on anet. > > The balance feedback discord that gave anet 4-5 months worth of balance suggestions was ignored completely and anet used purely statistics to balance. As a result the pvp and wvw are in a really bad shape and after seeing the recent balance preview it isn't getting any better. If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. What do you mean by "somehow you have gotten the idea in your head that if they release patches more frequently, they can do more balancing"? Are you seriously telling me that right now when anet has to add 3s cd to chaotic interruption they should instead take 3 months to do that cause there can't be more balance patches? Do you want to make this game as bad as possible? There's no way that adding 3s cd to CI takes 3 months. There's ton of changes like this they could address in a smaller but more frequent balance patches instead of forgetting stuff like 3s cd to CI from the big patch and be like "oh well, we add it next time". It's pretty clear that at this point you are just trolling and trying to cause anger to satisfy your need to get attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. The whole idea that more frequent patches delivers more balance is based on a completely nonsensical assumption about how Anet uses their resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. I know from previous experience since launch and what I've heard and read in numerous discord channels/during gw2 streams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. If you know how they do it, just say you know and why ... don't appeal to some idea that whatever they are doing is obvious because of common sense, because that's certainly not true. Unless you work there or have some intimate relation with Anet ... they could structure that however they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. But it is common sense to know that it doesn't take 3 months to make the amount of balance anet does. Well, can't blame you if you have never learned how to code and how stuff works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. > > But it is common sense to know that it doesn't take 3 months to make the amount of balance anet does. No it's not ... because you don't know their process to do it. Knowing how Anet does balance requires more than just an understanding of how to code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > > > > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > If you really think that anet is now working at their maximum capacity on what can come to game balance then idk what to tell you. Clearly anyone can tell that 3 months to do as much balance as anet does wouldn't take that amount of time if anet focused on balancing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you don't know if they aren't. You don't know their process. You don't know ANYTHING about their operations to suggest they can do more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's just common sense. I know as an engineer for sure that it doesn't take 3 months to make the balance. It might take 3 months to gather the amount of data they use to make the balance decisions which is irrelevant to the player experience. > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not common sense to know what Anet's resources are, how they use them and what their process is for balance. > > > > > > > > The fact that YOU don't know doesn't mean I don't know. > > > > > > That doesn't change what I said ... It's not common sense to know what Anet does, who does it and how they do it. > > > > But it is common sense to know that it doesn't take 3 months to make the amount of balance anet does. > > No it's not ... because you don't know their process to do it. I do know the process and I can reveal it to you. When anet balances the game they consider mainly 3 things. Statistics, internal discussions and player feedback. Player feedback gets noticed rarely but sometimes (usually if there's crying about x spec being too op for the duration of 6 months = 2 balance patches). The next thing that's internal discussion is the future of gw2/experience of the devs. They sometimes include these "experience" changes to balance patches as weird adjustments to some stuff that nobody really thought of or asked for. Then the main thing which is statistics that gives anet the classes/specs they do the internal discussions about. They use the statistics to see what gets played the most and what winrates etc. these specs have and they have internal discussion apart from the dev experience stuff on what they should do to these classes/specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Nothing you have said there gives you an indication of how long it should take, who is involved, how many people, what their validation or QA does, if there is documentation/approvals ... NOTHING. If that's your extent of your knowledge of their process, you just proved my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > That doesn't tell you what they do. You don't know the mechanics of how a game change plays out at their dev studio, or who is doing it, or how many people, or whatever their validation/QA process is. NOthing you have said there gives you an indication of how long it should take. Their QA process is dev testing and after release minor bug fixing, the balance team works on part of the other projects until few weeks before the balance patch when they gather all the statistics, the balance team is fairly small that mostly consist of the devs that created the classes/specs who are still in the house + some newcomers to get out the release notes etc. What comes to coding, it takes about a week to get everything to work apart from reworks that anet plans beforehand and balances later and have one or two devs working on it depending on how much they change the traits and use/rework the old ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 No, you don't answer me, because unless you work there, you are assuming the details you need to know to make the claim they can do it faster. I'm not asking you how to do it or the best way ... **I'm asking you what ANET does** and you don't know what Anet just because common sense. That's nonsense. The fact is that if don't know Anet's process, you can't claim they can do it faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > No, you don't answer me, because unless you work there, you are assuming the details you need to know to make the claim they can do it faster. > > I'm not asking you how to do it or the best way ... **I'm asking you what ANET does** and you don't know what Anet just because common sense. That's nonsense. > > The fact is that if don't know Anet's process, you can't claim they can do it faster. The common sense part was about coding, don't forget that! The information otherwise is gathered from what we players have seen and what has been told in various discord groups and stream chats by ppl who work or worked on anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 .... and that information is NOT ENOUGH to understand Anet's process for balance. You simply can't conclude it shouldn't take 3 months if you don't know the details of their process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > .... and that information is NOT ENOUGH to understand Anet's process for balance. You simply can't conclude it shouldn't take 3 months if you don't know the details of their process. Note that we are talking about the duration of how long does it take to make the balance. You can't conclude and justify that it takes 3 months if you don't know anything about coding. If you'd know, you'd agree with me. As I said before, the reason the balance can take so long is the statistics they want to gather. However, the real reason why it actually takes so long is the strict release schedule that anet uses and they don't support frequent balance patches outside of hotfixes. It has actually nothing to do with the quality of the patch vs time taken cause the patch is done in terms of the release schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Duly noted ... but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have enough information about Anet's process to claim it could be faster. Do you work there? If no, then stop assuming you understand the details of their process and resource allocation to make these claims. Furthermore, I CAN conclude it takes as long as it does ... because I can SEE it takes that long. I mean, it's measured ... we can count the days between balance patches, so it's actually pretty reasonable for me to conclude it takes whatever number of days between patches Are you going to try to argue that the gap between balance patches isn't real or something? Like, where I live has some time warping quality to space-time? Maybe you don't think I can follow a calender? At least THAT conclusion is based on something I can see ... while yours are based on things you assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Duly noted ... but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have enough information about Anet's process to claim it could be faster. Do you work there? If no, then stop assuming you understand the details of their process and resource allocation to make these claims. > > Furthermore, I CAN conclude it takes as long as it does ... because I can SEE it takes that long. I mean, it's measured ... we can count the days between balance patches, so it's actually pretty reasonable for me to conclude it takes whatever number of days between patches Are you going to try to argue that the gap between balance patches isn't real or something? Like, where I live has some time warping quality to space-time? Maybe you don't think I can follow a calender? At least THAT conclusion is based on something I can see ... while yours are based on things you assume. You are a psychic now all of a sudden? Did you read anything I said in the last post? It might be reasonable for you to conclude that if there's a patch every 3 months it must take 3 months to do something if you don't actually know reasonable times that it should and actually takes. > However, the real reason why it actually takes so long is the strict release schedule that anet uses and they don't support frequent balance patches outside of hotfixes. It has actually nothing to do with the quality of the patch vs time taken cause the patch is done in terms of the release schedule. Your argument has less value than mine which I have provided you information and backed it up by explaining to you what we know about anets internal processes. You can SEE that it takes 3 months to balance? Can you explain to me how you achieved this vision? Surely you are not trying to argue with an argument of "there's a gap between balance patches and that's how I can see it takes 3 months to make a balance patch", right? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was your argument. Surely you don't think that there is full balance team working full time for 3 months for the quality and amount of content that is the balance patch? If that really was your argument for this then I can give as good as argument of "I can't SEE how the balance can take 3 months and go so south with everything that needs addressing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Duly noted ... but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have enough information about Anet's process to claim it could be faster. Do you work there? If no, then stop assuming you understand the details of their process and resource allocation to make these claims. > > > > Furthermore, I CAN conclude it takes as long as it does ... because I can SEE it takes that long. I mean, it's measured ... we can count the days between balance patches, so it's actually pretty reasonable for me to conclude it takes whatever number of days between patches Are you going to try to argue that the gap between balance patches isn't real or something? Like, where I live has some time warping quality to space-time? Maybe you don't think I can follow a calender? At least THAT conclusion is based on something I can see ... while yours are based on things you assume. > > You are a psychic now all of a sudden? No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? Yes. I have already said why in this very thread. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? If you did know how to count, you would have noticed that the 3-month long balance schedule is only the current one. If you're claiming that the balance process for a single balance patch takes them 3 months, how do you explain that in the past history the very same process took them a different amount of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? > Yes. I have already said why in this very thread. > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? > If you did know how to count, you would have noticed that the 3-month long balance schedule is only the current one. If you're claiming that the balance process for a single balance patch takes them 3 months, how do you explain that in the past history the very same process took them a different amount of time? > I don't care how long it takes and I've never made any 'point' that it takes three months between patches. My point is that people can't assume that Anet doing it faster is better for balance. Yes, I've read your posts. I don't put much merit in what you have to say because like everyone else, you don't know their process either. Any argument to make balance better by doing it faster is fundamentally flawed thinking because they are based on assumptions about the Anet's balancing process details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Duly noted ... but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have enough information about Anet's process to claim it could be faster. Do you work there? If no, then stop assuming you understand the details of their process and resource allocation to make these claims. > > > > > > Furthermore, I CAN conclude it takes as long as it does ... because I can SEE it takes that long. I mean, it's measured ... we can count the days between balance patches, so it's actually pretty reasonable for me to conclude it takes whatever number of days between patches Are you going to try to argue that the gap between balance patches isn't real or something? Like, where I live has some time warping quality to space-time? Maybe you don't think I can follow a calender? At least THAT conclusion is based on something I can see ... while yours are based on things you assume. > > > > You are a psychic now all of a sudden? > > No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? The part I referred to as you being a psychic was the part where you could now suddenly SEE how it takes 3 months to make a balance patch while at the same time using the argument of "we don't know how anet makes the balance". You are pushing your own viewpoint and you ignore conveniently all the other things that I typed in my post so I paste it again here so you can respond to my whole message instead of derailing the conversation to insults. > It might be reasonable for you to conclude that if there's a patch every 3 months it must take 3 months to do something if you don't actually know reasonable times that it should and actually takes. > Your argument has less value than mine which I have provided you information and backed it up by explaining to you what we know about anets internal processes. You can SEE that it takes 3 months to balance? Can you explain to me how you achieved this vision? Surely you are not trying to argue with an argument of "there's a gap between balance patches and that's how I can see it takes 3 months to make a balance patch", right? > I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was your argument. Surely you don't think that there is full balance team working full time for 3 months for the quality and amount of content that is the balance patch? Especially wanna highlight this if we now start to go with the "this is how i feel" arguments. > If that really was your argument for this then I can give as good as argument of "I can't SEE how the balance can take 3 months and go so south with everything that needs addressing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? > > Yes. I have already said why in this very thread. > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? > > If you did know how to count, you would have noticed that the 3-month long balance schedule is only the current one. If you're claiming that the balance process for a single balance patch takes them 3 months, how do you explain that in the past history the very same process took them a different amount of time? > > > I don't care how long it takes and I've never made any 'point' that it takes three months between patches. Wait? So now you are saying that your point isn't that it takes 3 months to make the balance patch when you said this: > Furthermore, I CAN conclude it takes as long as it does ... because I can SEE it takes that long. Also, wasn't your whole point that if anet took shorter time between the patches the quality of balance patches would drop from bad to very bad? If this was the original point you try to argue here it's essential for you to also care about the time it takes to make a balance patch. I get it that it's hard to change someones mind on the internet but c' mon, you ignore everything I have just told you about the process, how long it takes approx and the real reason why it's only every 3-4 months which is the strict release schedule anet has. When you try to argue with your vote of "No, we don't need more Balance Updates" you can't just ignore everything else but your own statement "Anet takes 3-4 months to make a balance patch and that's enough and fine" that comes with the vote. The other people who voted for "No" have mostly feeling based arguments like for example "There's enough balance patches already, every time I log in I have to make a new build cause something has changed." and those are fine, they aren't trying to get a point across and that's kinda the point of voting. Other people vote and tell the logic behind the vote and why things should be like that and that's fine too. It's also fine to argue with others but while arguing, if you just keep ignoring everything the discussion has and "attack" people with provocative typing that pokes the other a bit and then use capital letters to provo more it's not okay. Typing things like "Unlike you, I'm NOT going to make assumptions" is rude and counterproductive to the discussion unless you just want to troll around and cause anger towards you. While arguing with me you could have done this argument thing civil and correctly and calmly say something like "Okay, if that's the case I guess there could be more balance patches. However, I think anet releases enough balance patches and the release cycle is fine". > My point is that people can't assume that Anet doing it faster is better for balance. Yes, I've read your posts. I don't put much merit in what you have to say because like everyone else, you don't know their process either. Any argument to make balance better by doing it faster is fundamentally flawed thinking because they are based on assumptions about the Anet's balancing process details. The current balance patches anet releases are already pretty bad and don't tackle with the issues in hand. That's why people are frustrated in wvw and in pvp cause the problems persist there for too long. These 2 game modes need more frequent balance patches really badly to prevent them from dying completely. It doesn't really matter what quality the patches are if they happen frequently enough then anet can tackle problems faster and make the balance better little by little instead of taking a long time with a big patch that goes south and we have to wait another 3-4 months to get fix that doesn't necessarily even fix anything which is again 3-4 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > let me ask you then ... if it take 10 patches or 1 patch in the same amount of time ... is the result different? > > Yes. I have already said why in this very thread. > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > No, I just know how to count. You know how a calendar works right? > > If you did know how to count, you would have noticed that the 3-month long balance schedule is only the current one. If you're claiming that the balance process for a single balance patch takes them 3 months, how do you explain that in the past history the very same process took them a different amount of time? > > > I don't care how long it takes and I've never made any 'point' that it takes three months between patches. > > My point is that people can't assume that Anet doing it faster is better for balance. Yes, I've read your posts. I don't put much merit in what you have to say because like everyone else, you don't know their process either. Any argument to make balance better by doing it faster is fundamentally flawed thinking because they are based on assumptions about the Anet's balancing process details. I do know that the quality of their individual balance patches now isn't any better than it was when they were iterating faster. As such, i can say that more balancing passes _is_ indeed better. And if their current process doesn't allow for that, they can always change it. In short, i know that the overall quality of balancing over long time is heavily dependant on the number of balance passes. I know, that Anet can do faster balance passes (because they managed to do that in the past). I know that smaller changes at shorter intervals are generally better than packaging those changes into one single patch. I know that at the moment GW2 balance is in a bad shape. As such, i don't need to understand what Anet internal balancing processes are - they are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That's because their balancing process is _not_ set in stone. It _can_ improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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