AMA(ANets response on condition)

[Jana.6831]

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @Jana.6831 said:

> >

> > ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

>

> No I get it, but at the same time, for me, WvW has always felt that way through every meta.

>

> I tried to get in to WvW for the first two or so years, gave up on it, and then gave it a second and third shot after some major updates. And I always leave for the same reason, it doesn't _feel_ like epic scale warfare, I go into it expecting to be a soldier in some epic conflict like the battle of Helms Deep. And I always end up leaving feeling like I just lost a foodfight in a gradeschool cafeteria, even when we won.

>

> Clipping, stacking, porting, ressing, LoS, and a hundred other mechanics completely ruin any sense of epic scale, while a lack of any organizational tools boils strategy down to throwing sparks at an amalgamous blob, while standing in another amalgamous blob, until one side runs out of bodies.

 

Yeah, probably if you had any expectations like real warfare it is a disappointment. (I have no idea what clipping is, btw asking myself that for some years now). We used a lot of what you've listed as strategies for a long time "Yo guys, they're rezzing, bomb them" "Banner lord" "WP Cooldown 3..2..SPPAAMMM" - I had a blast and did feel like a soldier (in zerkers) for the longest time. As long as there were strategies. The foodfight thingy has been like that for a while, yes, and that was what I meant - facerolling, dismissing all strategy, not caring about teamwork, smashing the buttons will do.

[XenesisII.1540]

bwahahaha it's so sad how much conditions have taken over this game, instant hit with like 8 conditions every time you get into battle. I'm on the verge of crying from laughter.

[Miyafuji.1340]

Well, the situation ATM is very weak on the strategy side. The sad reality now is the more condi Scourges you have the better off you are. The issue is with the scaling. Some classes do ok 1v1 and in small scale fights, and some which are the biggest issues now scale with numbers too much. If I fight a scourge I feel like having 50/50. If I fight 30 of me vs 30 scourges my chance to win 0%. ATM the situation is being forced back to the pirate-ship meta. Its because of the long range bombs of the scourges having the ability to instantkill anyone who tried to push, and even if you miraculously get trough, the enemy just have to pop winds of disenchantments at the direction you are pushing and meanwhile their necros just keep bombing and its over. Realistically its over even earlier cause the initial long range bomb has its own boonrip and then you get feared and GG. There is no outsustaining this, which so much boonrip and so much condi, its ATM not possible to outsustain the condi blobs. So it all degenerated to have more scourges than the enemy, leading to meh fights where if you are not one of them you feel pretty useless.

 

Easy solution would be to make their skills projectiles. There is so much anti-projectile now, yet it hinders mostly the classes that are already having problems. Necro does not care, marks and wells are not projectiles. Or make resistance unrippable and preventing boonrip while its active for example. One change and it would completely change the status quo while changing little on the PVE scene.

[babazhook.6805]

The exponential potency of damage output as Numbers increase has been an issue with all manner of games for a long long time. This was an issue in old board games I used to play where people would simply learn after a time that just piling all of your Chits into bigger and bigger stacks could guarantee victory. If damage must be greater then defense at the 1v1 level (which it must be or we would just never be able to down anyone) then it becomes exponentially more so as there more players involved.

 

This definitely manifests itself with Conditions in WvW but is not limited to Conditions.

 

I do recollect a few ways some of these old games addressed this. In one old space empire game when too many ships congregated in one place there was a risk of tremendous fluctuations in local space due to all of the energy being exerted and this could lead to massive loss of vessels on either side.

 

In a magic game , too much use of MANA from a local environ would deplete the same wherein all manner of spells would begin to fail or feedback on the caster.

 

I am not sure of what can be made a fix for WvW.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

----------

"Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

-------------

 

Except this isnt the case. condition builds do Way, way, way more damage over that 4 seconds. I know the 1,000 damage is an example. The problem is condition builds do HUGE amounts of damage with EACH condition, given that you can have like 4 or 5 conditions applied to you within the first second a fight starts that can lead to huge burst damage. It is just not viable and i think its a sign they have ZERO intention of fixing what is wrong with conditions and have been wrong with conditions ever since THEY decided to HUGELY increase condition damage, do very little about application (being too high!) and removal (being too low!)

 

Also, given that Condi builds are meant to SLOWLY whittle away the health of an enemy while being tanky to survive the damage, Condition damage can be as high if not HIGHER than bursat damage of most non-condition builds while being full bunker stats while the power builds need THREE stats in order to actually deal damage.

 

Basically Condition builds deal as good if not better burst damage, better sustained damage while having the bunker stats to keep them alive much longer than power builds can because they have to sacrifice survivability in order to deal damage - unlike condi builds that need ONE stat and then go bunker on many others.

[Jski.6180]

There was a lot of realty bad logic on the ama anet is comply out of touch with wvw population. Need to forces anet devs to play on all the survers and stop all playing on 2 -3 of them thinking that how every one plays and what every one has to play with / vs.

[babazhook.6805]

I think the single largest Culprit is not the conditions themselves but the way they can be applied at long range via persistent AOE traits and utilities that can all overlap one another. In a fight where there just single target skills used , people can in fact be focused down but focusing one one single target expends resources on that single target even as others in the enemy group are untouched. This can lead to much more interesting battles IMO.

 

Aoe on the other hand allows a person to attack numerous enemies at once and the overlapping of the AOE skills at extreme range just compounds the problem. Entire groups can be downed with the same expenditure of resources a single target type skill might have used to down one. As the number in a given group grows, the damage output jumps while the health of the target remains the same . I really do not think there as much an issue with Condition burst on a single target as there is with that same burst on a multiple of enemies.

 

 

[Jana.6831]

That is a bit more complictaed, I guess: The bigger the group, the more clears (usually). It's just too much of everything (stun, condi bombs, boonstrip, boons, passives and so on) and that even small scale and 1 vs 1.

[Justine.6351]

The only Condi build I can't stand atm is staff trailblazer reaper. I was so happy when I saw scourge, knowing all the condi facetankers would be loosing deathly chill and "second health bar" mode. Burn guards and Condi mesmers just don't have the cover, which gives players an actual chance to clear with basic cast time cleanse skills like Renewing Wave.

[Jski.6180]

> @Justine.6351 said:

> The only Condi build I can't stand atm is staff trailblazer reaper. I was so happy when I saw scourge, knowing all the condi facetankers would be loosing deathly chill and "second health bar" mode. Burn guards and Condi mesmers just don't have the cover, which gives players an actual chance to clear with basic cast time cleanse skills like Renewing Wave.

 

Reaper chilling death still there and ppl would run it if it was the best but scorges is better at doing condis in wvw due to its added strip and over all stronger condis (bleed is the weakest condi and it has no effect). At the very least reaper chilling death build was mostly 2 dmg condis and a few cover but all deal able with effects like reiscense now that boon does not even work and you cant simply out clear the number of condis types coming from scorges.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

All they have to do is tone down Condi application by a good amount and then scale back some of the Condi clears/resistance/Boon application uptime and boom it will fix quite a few issues right off the bat especially if they actually want Condis to be damage over time like they stated, but as it stands right now the amount of Condi application is way to high to be considered Damage over time.

[OriOri.8724]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > @xDudisx.5914 said:

> > > If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

> > They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.

> > Don't look at me - that's what they said!

>

> Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

>

> Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

 

While the power burst damage happens faster, you conveniently ignored the fact that once the power burst is over, after that 0.1 seconds, no more burst damage is being dealt. After that condi burst is over, you are still taking 8k damage every second from attacks that already happened.

[babazhook.6805]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> All they have to do is tone down Condi application by a good amount and then scale back some of the Condi clears/resistance/Boon application uptime and boom it will fix quite a few issues right off the bat especially if they actually want Condis to be damage over time like they stated, but as it stands right now the amount of Condi application is way to high to be considered Damage over time.

 

There is an issue with "toning down th application of conditions". That being on any given build there has to be something in a waponset that applies conditions Further to that it can not be a single condition or cleanses , even if lessened would take over. If you remove all condition apps from the AA and put them on cooldown skills, they will just never ramp up in a reasonable amount of time in order to do damage.

 

This means power builds will overwhelm the Condition build before that can ever occur. I know how quickly a power build can take someone down in Dire and contrary to claims made by others Dire does not make a person Godlike. It just might take one or two bursts more to melt them down. If Condition builds damaged is scaled back to too great a degree, then all manner of changes would have to be made to skills so as to allow them the added time they would need to survive against a power build. This would generally mean more stealth, more blocks. more evades and then the cycle of "block spam, evade spam. projectile hate" starts up again.

 

I think that condition application on a !v! basis is fin outside maybe one or two skills that are outliers. I can tweak the builds I am familiar with to do as well as can be expected versus a condition build while I am power. If condition application was out of control I would not be able to do this.By the same token in that 1v1 if the condition damage output of those I face in power were curtailed they would be much easier kills. The issue arises in larger group fights as numbers on either side increase. Everything goes out of whack.

 

We pretty well have the same amount of health points today as on launch even as the ability of a GROUP to lay down damage against many numbers at once with an ever greater frequency has exploded. The result is what we see today. Some game mechanic (and I know not what) has to be introduced to curtail group damage output and especially the fire and forget type stuff.

[HitmanHaydon.1053]

> @Silver.2076 said:

> Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

 

I think that all the time :(

[Sagramor.7395]

> @HitmanHaydon.1053 said:

> > @Silver.2076 said:

> > Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

>

> I think that all the time :(

 

And now we have verification

 

"Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

[boolah.1325]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

>

> Its a war dude...

>

> Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

>

> What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

>

> One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

 

Totally agree.. wtf do you want??..

 

People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing.

 

Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Just copying from another post in a similar thread.

 

AMA: "Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

 

How could that possibly be NOT intentional. Kinda obvious design feature. Anyone who plays the class for 2 minutes sees it and it's in the skill descriptions. And if it wasn't intended, it just goes to show how much of a rush they were to get this crap out there rather than delaying the release so this stuff was right.

 

AMA: "What is the long-term goal for power vs. condi balance in PvE – Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice. [snip]"

 

Notice how it's PvE specifically mentioned.

 

I mean, duh. The point is not to balance to the DPS per actual second, but over a longer period of time. I don't think anyone anywhere was advocating that. Kinda simple, but for a game that's been out for 5 years, I don't see why this is revisited again and again. Why is is so hard to see the dps of these condi builds. I mean, my firebrand does over 20K ticks of burning plus its power damage for a few seconds then drops down to 12K bruning plus power damage when I have full might stacks. What power profession even comes close to that? none.

 

This is also another reason to split PvP/WvW from PvE as PvE does not have the condi clears of PvP/WvW. Another no brainer, but they keep trying to balance for all. I'd even argue that over time, All classes should do the same dps, condi or power. That's how, well, pretty much, all games are. Then it comes down to more player skill or the situation. You choose condi, power, one classes skills or another depending on what you're fighting. For example, Power professions are supposed to have some skills that hit hard to exploit opportunities. If one has to spend a lot of down time away form an enemy, then condi is better. But if they want condi to do more damage than power, then PvE raids will continue to just want condi dps. It has to be even over a long period.

 

I swear. I'm so tired of this.

[Rangerdeity.5847]

there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

[Sagramor.7395]

> @Rangerdeity.5847 said:

> there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

 

This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

[Rangerdeity.5847]

> @Sagramor.7395 said:

> > @Rangerdeity.5847 said:

> > there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

>

> This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

 

point out any gameplay scenario where Condi damage being dependant on precision and ferocity same as power damage would make the game anything other than easier to balance.

[Sagramor.7395]

> @Rangerdeity.5847 said:

> > @Sagramor.7395 said:

> > > @Rangerdeity.5847 said:

> > > there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

> >

> > This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

>

> point out any gameplay scenario where Condi damage being dependant on precision and ferocity same as power damage would make the game anything other than easier to balance.

 

When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

 

It's a bit more complicated of a fix especially when anet is saying things like this.

 

_Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs._

[Burnfall.9573]

Anet still not learning. Same talks about the same problems with conditions....don't bother.

 

"You Can Not Change Someone Who Doesn't See An Issue In Their Actions"

 

[Evil.1580]

1. Power need ferocity + precision to be strong, while condi may need only expertise but still not a must. So 3 stats vs 2.

 

2. Power damage is reduced by toughness, while condi isn't. Skills like mist form don't take power dmg but if you were infected by conditions just before you mist form you are taking condi dmg and you can die in mist form. Many invulnerability skills are working this way.

 

3. With condi build, you can burst your rotation and start playing defensively for few seconds while still damaging your opponent. But with power builds you have to play only aggressively to damage your foes. THe moment you go back for heal you stop damaging it you no longer deal damage. Condis continue to dmg your opponent even when u perform dodge rolls and movement skills around your foe without targeting him with anything. This makes them strategically better because you can time your condi application and concentrate only on defense after this. In order to cleane your conditions you will ahve to use a skill and in most cases this will stop you from damaging your opponent, while condi build will have their condis applied to the enemy thus they can deal damage while clearing their conditions.

[Jana.6831]

> @Sagramor.7395 said:

> When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

If condi damage were dependend on more than only condi damage they'd have to chose to sacrifice one of their stats for a higher damage. Of course you're right that that wouldn't change the bombs inbetween two blobs, but they probably wouldn't hurt that hard, or the condi players would be taken out faster. While it doesn't fix everything, it still is something that needs to be considered when it comes to condis.

 

[Sagramor.7395]

> @Jana.6831 said:

> > @Sagramor.7395 said:

> > When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

> If condi damage were dependend on more than only condi damage they'd have to chose to sacrifice one of their stats for a higher damage. Of course you're right that that wouldn't change the bombs inbetween two blobs, but they probably wouldn't hurt that hard, or the condi players would be taken out faster. While it doesn't fix everything, it still is something that needs to be considered when it comes to condis.

>

 

Sure it would be nice if Condi builds had to put as much of their status budget into damage as Power builds to get the same damage output, but that isn't the silver bullet. And do you really want condis to crit? I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

Fixing condis will have to be a multifaceted solution. Starting with fixing Scourge because it appears the current WvW meta was very much not intended.