Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 > @saerni.2584 said: > People here: condition damage bursts too much > > Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage. > > People here: but that makes condition damage braindead! > > Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst. > > You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage. > > Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race. > > Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit). the problem is, for massive cleanse, you need to build for cleanse, which leaves non cleansing builds in the gutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syprus Soulslayer.1640 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > @saerni.2584 said: > > People here: condition damage bursts too much > > > > Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage. > > > > People here: but that makes condition damage braindead! > > > > Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst. > > > > You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage. > > > > Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race. > > > > Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit). > > the problem is, for massive cleanse, you need to build for cleanse, which leaves non cleansing builds in the gutter. ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amins.3710 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Anet's solution - Just add more condi application. Anet has never known how to balance their own wvw/pvp game. Balance team must give reach arounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roamzero.9486 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said: > ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much. Anets AMA was directed toward PVE. In PVP it's a different ball game, for a condition build to be effective it needs to burst conditions after condition cleanses have been baited out. The days of "sustained condi DPS" in PVP are long gone. Only Necros and Mesmers are over the top anyway because for them their "burst" has almost 100% uptime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoki.6048 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @Amins.3710 said: > Anet's solution - Just add more condi application. > > Anet has never known how to balance their own wvw/pvp game. Balance team must give reach arounds. Sad part is no matter what we discuss here, EVERYTHING will be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan.3472 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Conditions are much better than power in the vast majority of pvp/wvw/raid scenario. I can't give an accurate % but I believe condition is way more effective at least 70% of the situations/encounters based on the set up I used to play. If the max stack per conditions would be limited to 5 stacks per condition per target (like power is limited to 5 targets) then it would make things a bit more balanced AND it would prevent huge server LAGS too. (it would also be a huge necessary nerf to condi btw which would become a secondary attribute not a main source of damage as it is actually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @boolah.1325 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc. > > > > Its a war dude... > > > > Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise. > > > > What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ? > > > > One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ? > > Totally agree.. kitten do you want??.. > > People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing. > > Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag. i think there are 2 kind of WvW players, those who are bad at mm0s and find PVD very skillfull (sadly ive found players who think 10 player pvd'ing a gate of a empty server is very skillfull and that actually looks like it boost their ego's) and then there are the players that are used to siege mmo's with lots of tactics and organized players, well even so the only solution for those more organized groups is to leech due how broken the game can be against each others cause at the end theres only one way to play the game that is the most broken stack of most imba aoe casters, rather than deppends on group playstyle... once again due how poor cared the interation of the combat is, who leech beter from the unbalance will have better chances of winning, might noit actually be a situations of roles vs roles or better strategy/organization, Sadly the game is in favour of the first group, GW2 was designed for the more the brainless gamer u can find, even a bird or a dog can be trained to play this game.... all u need is to fallow the easy ways on how to win, wich they are on access of everyone due how the game was built for (players who hate mmo's will love gw2.. ANet words), they completelly messed up the easy way of figthing with easy rewards, so they want everything to become easy, forced players into damage creep redundancies, in hope players would be carried and ignore how bad the combat has become... The problem is that mmo for every one, never worked out, it returns ugly fights everywhere full of visual clutter, being in pve or pvp, and Anet find that amusing (at least looks like it) the way who classe shave become brainless and easy to play, poor counters, being most based on power creep momments some really w/o direct counters, being the only situation play cheaper than the cheaper player. Until Anet fixes that mentality of bringging easy acces of lameness to everyone , game wont get better..... @boolah.1325, it is not hard to overwhelm a class with lots of condi clears on 1vs1 ATM is not a l2p issue Anet has broken their simple combat system to something very ugly where they tough players would just shutup and leech.... u actually have lots of condi classes bursting with condis or easy ovehelming due the spam design, my guardian itselff can hold against most HoT condi spammers but there are some builds on PoF outhere than can overwhelm me easilly with coni on 4 seconds, and i got traited shouts with trooper runes, virtues, meditations to cleanse on heal and smite.. well lots of condi cleanses... they are useless agains those builds. L2P in this game means BUY the thew gimmick so u can leech as well.. its a vertical class design at the end...instead of upgrading armors we upgrade our traits for more spam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syprus Soulslayer.1640 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @roamzero.9486 said: > > @"Syprus Soulslayer.1640" said: > > ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much. > > Anets AMA was directed toward PVE. In PVP it's a different ball game, for a condition build to be effective it needs to burst conditions after condition cleanses have been baited out. The days of "sustained condi DPS" in PVP are long gone. Only Necros and Mesmers are over the top anyway because for them their "burst" has almost 100% uptime. I was referencing WvW, if PvE changes means changes in WvW then I'm all for it. You're right about Necromancer (scourge primarilary) they can dish out conditions at an astronomical rate. Perhaps it's more about weapon skills and traits / runes. Some mesmers can be annoying but being a mesmer myself it's easy to counter condi cheese mesmers plus we have access to tons of clears and stun breaks thanks to mirage. The problematic conditions are confusion, poison, and burns. Back in vanilla they use to stack duration not stack intensely. Now it feels like most classes can just poop out these conditions and their damage compared to bleeds per stack can be overwhelming. Perhaps their stacks should be limited if the damage tables are going to stay the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casantis.3106 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 We have a time limit announced or something? We need the changes soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasC.1056 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @saerni.2584 said: > People here: condition damage bursts too much > > Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage. > > People here: but that makes condition damage braindead! > > Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst. > > You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage. > > Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race. > > Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit). You make sense, and this is the way things should work if conditions were a real DOT system. It has to be reliable, and if it's not, it gets twisted so that it becomes a power burst doppleganger. Moreover, if DOT was _really_ over time, it would make sense to have dire and TB sets, since the condi user has to survive the duration their condis to work. So, why not : it makes sense to consider doing less dmg per tick, but in a reliable fashion, which means less/no cleanses and resistance removal. Probably won't happen though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoaxintelligence.4628 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 wvw is doomed with condi cheese :( Rip wvw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Alim.4176 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Lol lol lol lol> @Aeolus.3615 said: > > @boolah.1325 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc. > > > > > > Its a war dude... > > > > > > Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise. > > > > > > What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ? > > > > > > One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ? > > > > Totally agree.. kitten do you want??.. > > > > People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing. > > > > Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag. > > i think there are 2 kind of WvW players, those who are bad at mm0s and find PVD very skillfull (sadly ive found players who think 10 player pvd'ing a gate of a empty server is very skillfull and that actually looks like it boost their ego's) and then there are the players that are used to siege mmo's with lots of tactics and organized players, well even so the only solution for those more organized groups is to leech due how broken the game can be against each others cause at the end theres only one way to play the game that is the most broken stack of most imba aoe casters, rather than deppends on group playstyle... once again due how poor cared the interation of the combat is, who leech beter from the unbalance will have better chances of winning, might noit actually be a situations of roles vs roles or better strategy/organization, > > Sadly the game is in favour of the first group, GW2 was designed for the more the brainless gamer u can find, even a bird or a dog can be trained to play this game.... all u need is to fallow the easy ways on how to win, wich they are on access of everyone due how the game was built for (players who hate mmo's will love gw2.. ANet words), they completelly messed up the easy way of figthing with easy rewards, so they want everything to become easy, forced players into damage creep redundancies, in hope players would be carried and ignore how bad the combat has become... > > The problem is that mmo for every one, never worked out, it returns ugly fights everywhere full of visual clutter, being in pve or pvp, and Anet find that amusing (at least looks like it) the way who classe shave become brainless and easy to play, poor counters, being most based on power creep momments some really w/o direct counters, being the only situation play cheaper than the cheaper player. > > Until Anet fixes that mentality of bringging easy acces of lameness to everyone , game wont get better..... > > > @boolah.1325, it is not hard to overwhelm a class with lots of condi clears on 1vs1 ATM is not a l2p issue Anet has broken their simple combat system to something very ugly where they tough players would just shutup and leech.... u actually have lots of condi classes bursting with condis or easy ovehelming due the spam design, my guardian itselff can hold against most HoT condi spammers but there are some builds on PoF outhere than can overwhelm me easilly with coni on 4 seconds, and i got traited shouts with trooper runes, virtues, meditations to cleanse on heal and smite.. well lots of condi cleanses... they are useless agains those builds. > L2P in this game means BUY the thew gimmick so u can leech as well.. its a vertical class design at the end...instead of upgrading armors we upgrade our traits for more spam... I highly agree with what you have said here. It took me some time to figure it at myself. But as you have said, players who hate MMOs would love GW2. But that come vise versa as well. I really realized it after all of my friends stopped playing this game. It offers very little in terms of engaging combat. Less so when it comes to player versus player combat. Looking back on GW2 now, it has some of the worst and uninteresting combat system in the genre. GW2 also heavily rewards failure highly, rather than success. To the point success in most cases is just irrelevant compared to other MMORPGS on the market. This is the reason why some classes just don't have a place in "high end content, or PvP, WvW." Because other classes are being stacked so much, to the point. One can just faceroll their keyboard and be instantly successful against a master player. On a class that is just too demanding, thus is just outclassed. Due to nothing more, but balance and the vision of the devs. It's pretty clear from a PvP perspective this game is currently one of the worst. But that's ok. Because people will still flock to it in droves. Because it offer some people something that no other MMORPG will give them. Success for being sub par at a MMO. A even playing field for those players. Who normally get face stomped in every other MMORPG. Because either the refusal to L2P, or the refusal to work for progression, or both. GW2 does cater to both those players greatly more than other players. Thus they will flock to this game enmass. Until another publisher decides to make a better MMO that cater to these people. And it's safe to say, no other publisher will be willing to do that. Seeing the train wreck in progress GW2 and Paragon is now. (Epic Games tried to take a page from the ANet's book on how to do things. That Paragon is getting crapped on. By all of the same issues and problems GW2 currently faces. To include huge population decline crisis. Only thing is that game has no PvE to fall back on yet. I say Yet because Epic Games is working on making better Bots for that game. Because like GW2 Paragon's PvP is trash tier'ed at best.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odokuro.5049 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Power builds need to build glassy if they hope do deal big spike damage, while Condition based builds do not. A Condition based build can use gear such as Dire/Trailblazers and deal just as much if not significantly more than a Power based build running Berserkers/Marauders, while still retaining Sustain/Survivability from being able to stack things like Toughness/Vitality. The application of Conditions is another thing, you can Cleanse/Clear a few Conditions (Usually the cover Conditions, such as Poison.) and have those hard hitting Conditions still on you (Burning/Confusion/Torment.). I feel our Vitality should give us a passive defense vs. Condition damage/duration, such as Toughness does vs. Power damage recieved. Also internal cooldowns for applying the same Conditions over and over again, or limit the sources of Condition stacks to avoid several people being able to Condi-bomb one target. It's at the point now, that you either run full on Ebolaids if you wish to compete, or just uninstall the game, because ANet seems to have it out for Power builds, and wants everyone to bow down and surrender to running a Condition build for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Drop Burn damage by 20-25%% across the board and Torment/confusion by 15-20%...crisis averted. No playing with warm ups/cool downs/pulses...etc. Simple Lets have some bacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Easy fix to condi stats problems: Force condi builds to rely on precision. Eg. Blah skill or trait applies bleed/burn/torment on crit rather than automatically. Obviously, there would need to be some balancing done so that it's not a massive buff or nerf, but the end result should be condi builds being as squishy as their power counterparts. Want to drop 5k/s condis on your enemy? Fine, but you'll have to be as squishy as a power build in berserker's stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmfart.7480 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Both WvW & PvP modes seem to inherit their skills & traits balance primarily from PvE mode. The PvE team seem to be mostly focused on DPS balancing (mainly for raid use I presume), but they hardly ever seem to balance armors/health/defensive stuff. Then the PvP team seem to rebalance the stuff they inherited from PvE for the small scale player vs player scenarios & also balances most of the defensive mechanics. However, since PvP fights usually only last for seconds & very few players actually in the same fight, alot of stuff isn't changed . In PvP they don't design/balance stuff for long fights, they want it quite short (a dev post a year or two ago). Then the WvW team seems to inherit their stuff from both the other teams and tries to weave these together into a *"not totally game breaking"* & a little bit better balanced for a larger playerbase scenario. Fights can literally go on for hours, but there's quite alot of inherited limitations (timers/cooldowns/range/etc) on skills/traits/weapons that seems "not balanced on the same scale" with these larger & longer WvW siege warfares. I think most of us veteran long term wvw'ers agree that "insta-wipes" are boring (the term "bag hunters" is by newbies & for newbies. We vets like loooong fights, we dont care about bags). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowresli.3782 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @kmfart.7480 said: > Then the WvW team seems to inherit their stuff from both the other teams and tries to weave these together into a *"not totally game breaking"* & a little bit better balanced for a larger playerbase scenario. Fights can literally go on for hours, but there's quite alot of inherited limitations (timers/cooldowns/range/etc) on skills/traits/weapons that seems "not balanced on the same scale" with these larger & longer WvW siege warfares. I think most of us veteran long term wvw'ers agree that "insta-wipes" are boring (the term "bag hunters" is by newbies & for newbies. We vets like loooong fights, we dont care about bags). agreed, but: as a wvw veteran myself you missed one thing. There is no wvw team :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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