maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > Clear the map by completing all of its events. So let's take Verdant Brink as an example because most events are localized around the outposts. You idea of Vanquishing Verdant Brink would be to complete all the outpost events (what about those with multiple paths?), then wait for nightfall and complete all the night events too? What about the random events that appear only after you complete the outposts, will those need to be cleared too? And all that with 10 people. Or let's say vanquishing Dragon's Stand, which is even easier to conceptualize. Can you imagine 10-players finishing Dragon's Stand? 3 on top and bottom lanes and 4 on the mid lane? And with, as you said, Raid difficulty too. Care to give an example of map that you think this "complete all events" vanquishing would actually work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > Clear the map by completing all of its events. > > So let's take Verdant Brink as an example because most events are localized around the outposts. You idea of Vanquishing Verdant Brink would be to complete all the outpost events (what about those with multiple paths?), then wait for nightfall and complete all the night events too? What about the random events that appear only after you complete the outposts, will those need to be cleared too? And all that with 10 people. > > Or let's say vanquishing Dragon's Stand, which is even easier to conceptualize. Can you imagine 10-players finishing Dragon's Stand? 3 on top and bottom lanes and 4 on the mid lane? And with, as you said, Raid difficulty too. > > Care to give an example of map that you think this "complete all events" vanquishing would actually work? I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. As this topic continued I got the idea of what if this is in a form of a guild mission with minimum/maximum amount of players to complete maps? I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. There's also the thing of splitting your team to complete events faster on the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Omernon.9762" said: > **Would do you think about this:** > The only way I could see it work if there was no raids in Guild Wars 2 and this mode would replace them also in terms of rewards. It wouldn’t be about killing X number of monsters, but rather it would open up a sepetrate instance of the map for a group of 10 people and their aim would be to complete series of unique chain events that would culminate in a big, hard meta event. These events would be much different from normal mode. For example in Fields of Ruin the events would be about protecting Ebonhawk from Seperatists. You would start with small events in the open field, that are rather insignificant, but completing them would make meta event easier (like helping ogres and getting them on your side, saving kidnaped soldiers, saving truce with Charrs etc.) and at the end you would need to defend Ebonhawk from big invasion (few boss fights in-between). Every week maps would rotate and there would be only 4 maps available for Vanquish Mode, so that you can’t farm one easier map for eternity. It would also make new map releases from LWS somewhat more interesting (also it would probably take longer to release them, but the aforementioned events are still easier to script than whole raids with new mechanics in completely new locations). And of course Vanquish Mode would yield the same reward raid do as it would replaced them entirely. > > This would be the kind of hardcore content I would be seriously interested in, but somewhere during development of HoT ANet decided that they don’t want their game to be the most unique MMORPG anymore and they started to cater to the average MMO crowd. The thing about designing MMORPG is that you need to make long terms decisions. Adding new hardcore PvE mode on top of Fractals and Raids would make those more obscure, as you would divide players’ interests even further. While that sounds interesting, it would take a lot of dev hours to build that across the number of open-world maps GW2 has. That even sounds painful to me as a level designer because of all the little bits and pieces that would need changing to make the gameplay flow correctly, and yet it's the people involved with encounter design who are going to be slammed by that. Considering the cadence of raid releases is already rather slow, it seems to me that they wouldn't have the resources to do raid versions of each map unless they moved even more people out of the living world teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > > @"Omernon.9762" said: > > **Would do you think about this:** > > The only way I could see it work if there was no raids in Guild Wars 2 and this mode would replace them also in terms of rewards. It wouldn’t be about killing X number of monsters, but rather it would open up a sepetrate instance of the map for a group of 10 people and their aim would be to complete series of unique chain events that would culminate in a big, hard meta event. These events would be much different from normal mode. For example in Fields of Ruin the events would be about protecting Ebonhawk from Seperatists. You would start with small events in the open field, that are rather insignificant, but completing them would make meta event easier (like helping ogres and getting them on your side, saving kidnaped soldiers, saving truce with Charrs etc.) and at the end you would need to defend Ebonhawk from big invasion (few boss fights in-between). Every week maps would rotate and there would be only 4 maps available for Vanquish Mode, so that you can’t farm one easier map for eternity. It would also make new map releases from LWS somewhat more interesting (also it would probably take longer to release them, but the aforementioned events are still easier to script than whole raids with new mechanics in completely new locations). And of course Vanquish Mode would yield the same reward raid do as it would replaced them entirely. > > > > This would be the kind of hardcore content I would be seriously interested in, but somewhere during development of HoT ANet decided that they don’t want their game to be the most unique MMORPG anymore and they started to cater to the average MMO crowd. The thing about designing MMORPG is that you need to make long terms decisions. Adding new hardcore PvE mode on top of Fractals and Raids would make those more obscure, as you would divide players’ interests even further. > > While that sounds interesting, it would take a lot of dev hours to build that across the number of open-world maps GW2 has. That even sounds painful to me as a level designer because of all the little bits and pieces that would need changing to make the gameplay flow correctly, and yet it's the people involved with encounter design who are going to be slammed by that. Considering the cadence of raid releases is already rather slow, it seems to me that they wouldn't have the resources to do raid versions of each map unless they moved even more people out of the living world teams. Good thing about that would be that the "raid" release would go along with the living world release and the time that goes to the map design would be eliminated and the focus could be purely on the mechanics especially if this would get implemented for the new living story releases when they create the maps or rework old maps. I'd say if the map clear would replace the raids it would actually save a lot of time and this would be rather unique thing for an mmorpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 It would still be necessary to do design and scripting for two separate instances, and probably some terrain adjustments as well; it's a bit hard to make a decent raid encounter in an environment designed so you can go anywhere you want at any time. There's also artwork for any new monsters required for the raid (unless you only recycle assets from the story), writing and voice acting, etc. - basically the only thing you save time on is props. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? I have. What's the follow up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? > > I have. What's the follow up? You are saying that these core tyria events will be something the raid team will work on... as if they aren't stretched thin already, with slow -actual- raid releases. You are also saying that these core tyria events will be equal to raid releases, meaning raid difficulty? How exactly do you expect an event that has a bunch of random Charr attacking a village be turned into Raid-level content? Which is why I asked if you've played Raids. To know the kind of coordination required to complete Raid bosses, compared to the abysmal level required to finish most events (large scale meta events require coordination). How do you expect something like the fight with Justiciar Hablion in Bloodstone Fen or the fight with Amala in Istan to be a equal to a "raid boss". If they allowed only 10 or 20 players instead of what we have now, these events won't suddenly become "Raids". They'd need to add a bazillion new abilities to the bosses in order to make them raid-like. And then you say that this will be "simple" to do. Right, remaking every single boss and every single mob that exists on all zones that will have "vanquishing" on is simple. I don't know what else to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > that would take you to a 10-man version of the open world map > > So you want them to add about 49 10-man instances to the game at once... how would this even be populated I don't know. Also Vanquish in GW1 was mostly a solo experience, don't mistake heroes for other players. > All at once ore one every lw update or smth, doesnt matter. Gw1 wasnt an mmo and it made sense there, in gw2 it could be an instanced activity that you can make a group for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Op i personally see vanquishing as kinda a boring system tho if they add it good. Id lersonally would much more prefer if they took hm from gw1 and worked into mera events and world bosses. Having instances of both that are scaled for idk, 50man?80man groups, to do and guilds can open would be something nice in my opinion. Think of it like 40 man raiding from wow kind of but its the same world bosses and metas just scaled up (and maybe some new mechanics here and there). Imo it would really boost the community aspect of gw2 and the guild aspect of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > Op i personally see vanquishing as kinda a boring system tho if they add it good. Id lersonally would much more prefer if they took hm from gw1 and worked into mera events and world bosses. > > Having instances of both that are scaled for idk, 50man?80man groups, to do and guilds can open would be something nice in my opinion. Think of it like 40 man raiding from wow kind of but its the same world bosses and metas just scaled up (and maybe some new mechanics here and there). > > Imo it would really boost the community aspect of gw2 and the guild aspect of the game. That's how the game works already, the bosses scale for the amount of players present. There's a problem with scaling open world stuff as hard mode tho which is that the players aren't always lvl 80 with max gear and how do you separate the players that are leveling from players that are doing the hard mode encounter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > > > > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? > > > > I have. What's the follow up? > > You are saying that these core tyria events will be something the raid team will work on... as if they aren't stretched thin already, with slow -actual- raid releases. You are also saying that these core tyria events will be equal to raid releases, meaning raid difficulty? How exactly do you expect an event that has a bunch of random Charr attacking a village be turned into Raid-level content? Which is why I asked if you've played Raids. To know the kind of coordination required to complete Raid bosses, compared to the abysmal level required to finish most events (large scale meta events require coordination). > > How do you expect something like the fight with Justiciar Hablion in Bloodstone Fen or the fight with Amala in Istan to be a equal to a "raid boss". If they allowed only 10 or 20 players instead of what we have now, these events won't suddenly become "Raids". They'd need to add a bazillion new abilities to the bosses in order to make them raid-like. And then you say that this will be "simple" to do. Right, remaking every single boss and every single mob that exists on all zones that will have "vanquishing" on is simple. I don't know what else to say. Well, if you are okay with 1 raid per year it's up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Op i personally see vanquishing as kinda a boring system tho if they add it good. Id lersonally would much more prefer if they took hm from gw1 and worked into mera events and world bosses. > > > > Having instances of both that are scaled for idk, 50man?80man groups, to do and guilds can open would be something nice in my opinion. Think of it like 40 man raiding from wow kind of but its the same world bosses and metas just scaled up (and maybe some new mechanics here and there). > > > > Imo it would really boost the community aspect of gw2 and the guild aspect of the game. > > That's how the game works already, the bosses scale for the amount of players present. There's a problem with scaling open world stuff as hard mode tho which is that the players aren't always lvl 80 with max gear and how do you separate the players that are leveling from players that are doing the hard mode encounter? They scale for ppl but they scale very little to make them any harder. You seoerate them by making it an instanced activity that guilds open with predermined groups and the metas/wb are scaled for lvl 80 groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Ben K.6238" said: > It would still be necessary to do design and scripting for two separate instances, and probably some terrain adjustments as well; it's a bit hard to make a decent raid encounter in an environment designed so you can go anywhere you want at any time. > > There's also artwork for any new monsters required for the raid (unless you only recycle assets from the story), writing and voice acting, etc. - basically the only thing you save time on is props. I think that huge amount of time goes to designing the raid map and the new models. What if we had the raid team doing open world/raid mechanics and the living story team doing map/artwork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > > > > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > > > > > > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? > > > > > > I have. What's the follow up? > > > > You are saying that these core tyria events will be something the raid team will work on... as if they aren't stretched thin already, with slow -actual- raid releases. You are also saying that these core tyria events will be equal to raid releases, meaning raid difficulty? How exactly do you expect an event that has a bunch of random Charr attacking a village be turned into Raid-level content? Which is why I asked if you've played Raids. To know the kind of coordination required to complete Raid bosses, compared to the abysmal level required to finish most events (large scale meta events require coordination). > > > > How do you expect something like the fight with Justiciar Hablion in Bloodstone Fen or the fight with Amala in Istan to be a equal to a "raid boss". If they allowed only 10 or 20 players instead of what we have now, these events won't suddenly become "Raids". They'd need to add a bazillion new abilities to the bosses in order to make them raid-like. And then you say that this will be "simple" to do. Right, remaking every single boss and every single mob that exists on all zones that will have "vanquishing" on is simple. I don't know what else to say. > > Well, if you are okay with 1 raid per year it's up to you. No I'm not ok with 1 raid per year. But what you are suggesting isn't raid and in order to make it look like a raid, it would make real raids appear once per 10 years. 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The Ace.9105 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > > > > > > > > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? > > > > > > > > I have. What's the follow up? > > > > > > You are saying that these core tyria events will be something the raid team will work on... as if they aren't stretched thin already, with slow -actual- raid releases. You are also saying that these core tyria events will be equal to raid releases, meaning raid difficulty? How exactly do you expect an event that has a bunch of random Charr attacking a village be turned into Raid-level content? Which is why I asked if you've played Raids. To know the kind of coordination required to complete Raid bosses, compared to the abysmal level required to finish most events (large scale meta events require coordination). > > > > > > How do you expect something like the fight with Justiciar Hablion in Bloodstone Fen or the fight with Amala in Istan to be a equal to a "raid boss". If they allowed only 10 or 20 players instead of what we have now, these events won't suddenly become "Raids". They'd need to add a bazillion new abilities to the bosses in order to make them raid-like. And then you say that this will be "simple" to do. Right, remaking every single boss and every single mob that exists on all zones that will have "vanquishing" on is simple. I don't know what else to say. > > > > Well, if you are okay with 1 raid per year it's up to you. > > No I'm not ok with 1 raid per year. But what you are suggesting isn't raid and in order to make it look like a raid, it would make real raids appear once per 10 years. What I am trying to suggest here is a raid content once per living story release using the living story release maps as raid maps in addition to use the same tech at some point to convert other maps too to be more casual raids. There's just not enough time for anet to do more than 1 raid per year. It would be the same type of endgame content that gw1 had like fissure of woe and underworld but in gw2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > With 10 people? How do old maps get populated anyway? > > Finding 10 players at the same place in the open world outside big meta events (or an event daily) is hard anyway. Also, see how much populated individual dungeons or fractals are, outside the potential dailies. > > > Don't mistake your experience for everyone else's experience. > > I already explained why vanquishing was a solo experience, because one it was incredibly boring/tedious and second there were no rewards for doing it a second time, it was mostly similar to world completion in GW2, you don't really need people for that. Now if despite all that you did it in a group, good for you, that doesn't change that it was designed as a solo experience. Well, just because that was your experience doesnt mean it is applicable as a general design intention. AFAIK, so in my experience, it was simply as a more rewarding more difficult experience. And since there is no evidence to suggest that GW1 was designed as a solo experience, I would say it was designed as a coop experience where heroes and henchmen could fill in roles in your team, if you didnt have enough or any friends. Especially as at first it was just henchmen, then a MAX of 3 heroes (Nov 2006), and 3 years AFTER the introduction of vanquishing (April 2007), 7 heroes (March 2011). I looked it up, but I also remember because I criticized the increase of heroes in your party, feeling it took away from the original GW1 experience, taking away all initiative to play together. We can guess what the initial design idea for GW1 or Vanquishing is, but I very much doubt it was designed to be experienced solo because relatively random player "Maddoctor" would find it boring and would only be rewarded once because he only plays one character. ? j/k > > It has no traction as an argument in this discussion anyway, as a hypothetical vanquish mode in GW2 would never be the same as in GW1. > > I only read what the OP said, that they want it to be like GW1 although they didn't give any information on how it would work. I personally see the forum as a place to discuss and add to ideas, especially when all to often OPs are fairly non descriptive and not thought out thoroughly at all. Instead of taking such, well, weakly presented ideas literally, I rather try to see how such a thing could work, even if its usually not likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > Well, just because that was your experience doesnt mean it is applicable as a general design intention. It was the general design intention for vanquishing not the entire game. If they intended it to be multiplayer content it would have rewards applicable for multiple players. > Especially as at first it was just henchmen, then a MAX of 3 heroes (Nov 2006), and 3 years AFTER the introduction of vanquishing (April 2007), 7 heroes (March 2011). I looked it up, but I also remember because I criticized the increase of heroes in your party, feeling it took away from the original GW1 experience, taking away all initiative to play together. You could vanquish with 3 heroes and 4 Henchmen just fine. Heroes existed at the time of the release of vanquishing as you yourself posted. Especially Factions and Nightfall vanquishing was easy because the henchmen had better builds. > Instead of taking such, well, weakly presented ideas literally, I rather try to see how such a thing could work, even if its usually not likely to happen. If you check my last few posts I explain in more than enough detail why the OP's idea isn't going to work, in any form. Look those up for more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I am pretty sure there are maps in gw2 you can clear with 10-man group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So all the Heart of Thorns maps are off. Individual events in Path of Fire maps could work, but not if all the events are active at the same time. So in Desolation you'd get Junundu Rising and Maws of Torment running at the same time. That would be fun and exciting. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say that the living story chapter maps could be cleared with 10-man groups as well as most of core tyrian maps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like clearing Silverwastes with 10 people? Or Dragonfall? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Core Tyria maps they have follow up events, some require you to succeed in the previous event, but there are also those that "require" failure. What happens then? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's take Brisban Wildlands, a gigantic zone with about 32 events give or take plus a 4-event meta. That's 36 events to "complete". What kind of rewards do you envision this type of content that will take literal hours to complete should give? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This suggestion doesn't necessarily mean that every map would get the vanquish thing, it could be just for season 5 ls maps for example. Ofc there are some maps that need reworks for vanquish if that would be implemented. Tho the problems you are describing are happening now already cause nobody actually plays the open world maps so the events might need a rework anyways? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't need a rework because nobody needs to finish all those events in a row. You go on the map to gather resources, do your dailies, bounties with guild members, wait for meta events or whatever, and at the same time while waiting you finish events around. That's how dynamic events are designed. They are not designed to be beaten and forgotten, nor to complete all of them in a row, like your vanquish idea. Individual meta events are well populated, when they are active, we have timers for that. Timers allow players to go to the events and know there will be others around, imagine if we didn't have events on timers, total chaos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 or 20 man content is also a terrible idea for guilds. Guilds aren't created to have a limited amount of players, some are large, others are small, a guild might field 9, another might get 21 players. The only way to make this work as a guild activity is to make meta events, and only meta events, instanced. An instanced Shadow Behemoth, an instanced Mega-destroyer, an instanced Golem MKII and so on. But even then, the question remains: why? What's the point? If you need some guild content to play with your guild, then your guild isn't a very good guild to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Think of it as a raid release where a raid team is working on an already existing map and implements new events for 10-man group for that map that follow up the maps story. This way it would take away the whole aspect of designing raid maps and make raid releases way faster. Also if you have the map clear type of raids, more players probably would play them cause it's not all boss rushes that require the x builds etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some maps could be more casual like the wintersday raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm gonna ask, have you played any Raids in GW2? > > > > > > > > > > I have. What's the follow up? > > > > > > > > You are saying that these core tyria events will be something the raid team will work on... as if they aren't stretched thin already, with slow -actual- raid releases. You are also saying that these core tyria events will be equal to raid releases, meaning raid difficulty? How exactly do you expect an event that has a bunch of random Charr attacking a village be turned into Raid-level content? Which is why I asked if you've played Raids. To know the kind of coordination required to complete Raid bosses, compared to the abysmal level required to finish most events (large scale meta events require coordination). > > > > > > > > How do you expect something like the fight with Justiciar Hablion in Bloodstone Fen or the fight with Amala in Istan to be a equal to a "raid boss". If they allowed only 10 or 20 players instead of what we have now, these events won't suddenly become "Raids". They'd need to add a bazillion new abilities to the bosses in order to make them raid-like. And then you say that this will be "simple" to do. Right, remaking every single boss and every single mob that exists on all zones that will have "vanquishing" on is simple. I don't know what else to say. > > > > > > Well, if you are okay with 1 raid per year it's up to you. > > > > No I'm not ok with 1 raid per year. But what you are suggesting isn't raid and in order to make it look like a raid, it would make real raids appear once per 10 years. > > What I am trying to suggest here is a raid content once per living story release using the living story release maps as raid maps in addition to use the same tech at some point to convert other maps too to be more casual raids. There's just not enough time for anet to do more than 1 raid per year. > > It would be the same type of endgame content that gw1 had like fissure of woe and underworld but in gw2. And what you are suggesting isn't going to work because "living story maps" can never be Raids. Unless they are re-worked and tweaked to the point that they are actual Raids (and those we all know how long it takes to develop) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > Well, just because that was your experience doesnt mean it is applicable as a general design intention. > > It was the general design intention for vanquishing not the entire game. If they intended it to be multiplayer content it would have rewards applicable for multiple players. Okay, that makes no sense to me, what would a reward applicable for multiple players be exactly? And how is that different from the rest of the game? > > Especially as at first it was just henchmen, then a MAX of 3 heroes (Nov 2006), and 3 years AFTER the introduction of vanquishing (April 2007), 7 heroes (March 2011). I looked it up, but I also remember because I criticized the increase of heroes in your party, feeling it took away from the original GW1 experience, taking away all initiative to play together. > > You could vanquish with 3 heroes and 4 Henchmen just fine. Heroes existed at the time of the release of vanquishing as you yourself posted. Especially Factions and Nightfall vanquishing was easy because the henchmen had better builds. > You could also do it with just henchmen just fine. Though many players had trouble with just the heroes and henchmen. Just because you could play it solo, doesnt make it purely a solo design. > > Instead of taking such, well, weakly presented ideas literally, I rather try to see how such a thing could work, even if its usually not likely to happen. > > If you check my last few posts I explain in more than enough detail why the OP's idea isn't going to work, in any form. Look those up for more information. Fair enough. I would never suggest you have to like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 My take on this: ANet can pick 1 map at a time, and make an instanced version of it, for a 5 man party. Have a special rule for that instance that enables all events, minus world bosses. So players have to complete all the events, and thus also go through all the meta events, in a 5 man group to complete it. Personally don't care about any rewards. I also think this would work best with the Core Tyria maps. All OW Tyria events, minus world bosses, should be designed for 5 players and scale upward, so I see no reason for 10 man groups. This is supposed to be a challenge mode after all. That said, they still won't be anywhere near raid bosses, but allows you to sort of progress the map with the minimum amount of players (5) they're designed for. though, probably wouldn't be bad with a little boost in difficulty, since most players are 80 with gear and groups going into this. Will obviously be some extra work and testing to get the events to work right with the instance system. But it doesn't sound like a very large amount of work (from my limited understanding). Yes, someone needs to do it, and that is the larges problem as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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