Core vs Elite balancing - buff core or nerf elite?

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > I think the entire debate about core and elite specs makes no sense and core should be clearly inferior, but I shall explain why:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > First off, core specs as is right now are completely integrated into every elite spec with only some minor alterations here and there. To change this, core builds would need to be built similar to an elite spec with very own traits and mechanics. This would be potentially even more effort than a new elite spec since core traits, skills, etc would need to be redesigned as to not work the same way in elite specs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If the effort is just as much as designing a new elite spec, then I'd rather arenanet work on additional elite specs. It would be way easier to balance around 3 elite specs (without major concern to core classes) over balanceing around core classes and 2 elite specs (for referance, currently they are balancing mostly around the elite specs only).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I just don't see the benefit in making core classes viable. The only reason for this would be if people enjoy the core abilities over every single elite spec available to their class. In which case its more an issue of designing an elite spec which caters or is somewhat similar to the core class (which most classes have). Even then I would personally racther have 3 elite specs than core builds +2elites.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As to power creep, yeah that ship sailed looooong ago. I don't deal with notions of grandeur or immagination. The power creep will never get toned back, and to some extent it shouldn't since all content since HoT was designed with higher than vanilla power levels in mind. I do agree though that elite specs should be toned down a bit as well as balanced against each other.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I'm not mistaken years ago A-net themselves said that E-Spec would offer different playstyle(not a straight-up upgrade to core) without making it mandatory but currently it's meta e-spec or shoo away. There's no need to "built similar to an elite spec", because they're just nothing more than a traitlines and skills like everything else. I don't understand your point of view at all, it seems like you consider E-spec like something totally different, but they're nothing more than a trait lines and access to new skills, do not forget that.

> > > > >

> > > > > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's a very simple mathematical equation. Core builds are X, elite specs are Y. X is part of Y thus Y is X+N, but you want X and Y to be equal. This would be only doable with severe drawbacks in elite specs (as to compensate for having access to the full core class) which in turn means they would need severe penalties. Not only is this not fun, it would be very hard to balance. As I had mentioned earlier.

> > > >

> > > > The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core. You can always use an elite spec to replace the least desirable trait line within your build, so of course the build with the elite spec will end up stronger even if they made sure that the elite spec itself is not the strongest trait line of the profession. Basically, balancing them with core is impossible, especially when you consider that DPS is not the only thing that you need to balance for.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Anet has already made certain skills behave different based on spec. All they have to do is change core attunements to behave differently and give additional bonuses.

> >

> > They have made such changes and yet they haven't truly succeeded in making core equal to elites with this method. This is because of the combination of getting extra utility and weapon options, in addition to what I said about the elite needing to be equal with the least important core trait line in a given build dedicated to a role. This is a lot of issues that you have to deal with. It would probably be way easier if they introduced a new batch of elite specs in LW5, with LW5 being accessible to players of the core game. This way core players will not be necessarily outclassed by PoF and HoT elites. If you eventually have enough elite specs the viability of core builds becomes irrelevant anyway, since the amount of elite specs gives you the variety that you want.

>

> But the change in mentality is pretty recent. So i don't think they've actually tried to bring core in line with elites in this way. You just have to add a lot of utility to core attunements to make up for it. What I was to was referring to were chrono shatters last patch.

 

I somehow doubt that anybody will play core mesmer over chrono because of this, but I guess we'll see.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

>

> I somehow doubt that anybody will play core mesmer over chrono because of this, but I guess we'll see.

 

I've seen people claim it has better DPS and solo potential. People will still play it because it's an "elite" specialization until it becomes really obvious it's a bad thing to do. Support Chrono is apparently still a thing, albeit all the guides are bork because of dry shatter recommendations.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

> Of course it is possible. I know it, because it has already happened once - Druid was such a sidegrade. It offered something core Ranger did not have, but didn't really buff any of the core ranger roles. There's a reason why up until SB we had a core condi ranger build - druid was strictly worse in that role.

>

> And that's how all elite specs should have worked - by offering new options, without buffing those that are already present. Unfortunately, Anet didn't go that way in many cases. Some (most) of the elite specs were designed not to be sidegrades, but straight up upgrades - and that caused some of the problems we now have.

>

 

I can't agree with you here Astralporing (on the balancing part, yes on the role part).

 

First off, I disagree that Druid was a sidegrade in terms of balance. **It was a sidegrade in terms of role, yes.** Those two should not get confused even if they often go hand in hand. Yes, **I personally would love if every class got access to as many roles as possible. That should be the goal while also keeping those roles balanced against each other.**

 

This being a role difference though falls under my argument that with 3 elite specs, almost all roles can potentially be covered by every class. Currently all classes have viable condition damage, power damage and some kind of heal or support build, with the only exception being no power damage build for revenant and how good support builds synergize with each other and some classes lacking dedicated heal support builds.

 

From a pve perspective, there simply is no more room or at the very least there won't be with the next elite specialization. This changes with spvp and wvw where there is a lot more room for unique builds due to classes competing against and this is centered less around roles or rather different roles (point denial, kill speed, defensive and offensive cooldowns, etc.). Still that does not invalidate my argument that it becomes vastly harder to balance for core and elite specs, which I have explained further up.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Ele also had some of the greatest support capabilities of all core specs and tempest is way better than core at that.

The only support capability ele offered was might stacking, whih is something that disappeared completely with HoT regardless of tempest. The support offered by tempest is not in the same category as the support offered by eles then. Modern kind of support didn't exist at that time at all - there were no support specs, there were only dps builds with side support. Also, notice how it wasn't the support that caused ele to be replaced by tempest after HoT - it was the _damage modifiers_ in tempest traitline. Tempest became the "support spec" ans stopped being a dps one only after Anet decided they need to make space for incoming Weaver.

 

> What exactly would you give elementalist that it doesn't have with core?

Proper heal spec would be one (yes, core ele could heal, but never to the degree that became wanted in the Raids era. Besides, good heal spec is far more than simply having a big heal per second output). Modern support (at the cost of dps, not in addition to it) would be another. Basically, lot of things would have been fine as long as you didn't take away from ele core the primary thing it was used for - dps. Unfortunately, both elite specs did exactly that - they offered dps increases core could not contend with.

 

> The only professions that can benefit from this approach are the ones that barely had support capabilities ever in core. The rest will inevitably have elite specs conflicting with core.

Yes, for some (guardian) this stuff might have been harder to do. But even for him you could make a heal and a condi especs, leaving rest to core. Instead of the current situation where you have an espec for condi, heal and support, another espec for power dps, and nothing left for core.

 

Basically, core build needs to have a role remaining. And an useful role, not somethingg that would be ignored (so, if it would be support, it needs to be a good support, something that could stand on teh even level to the current support builds of post-PoF era).

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> This being a role difference though falls under my argument that with 3 elite specs, almost all roles can potentially be covered by every class. Currently all classes have viable condition damage, power damage and some kind of heal or support build, with the only exception being no power damage build for revenant and how good support builds synergize with each other and some classes lacking dedicated heal support builds.

Yep, at most 4 roles. Notice though that at this moment there are especs that are hogging more than one role (FB, with it's heal, suppoort and condi dps is the most extreme case, i think). That should never be the case.

 

> From a pve perspective, there simply is no more room or at the very least there won't be with the next elite specialization. This changes with spvp and wvw where there is a lot more room for unique builds due to classes competing against and this is centered less around roles or rather different roles (point denial, kill speed, defensive and offensive cooldowns, etc.). Still that does not invalidate my argument that it becomes vastly harder to balance for core and elite specs, which I have explained further up.

Yes, there's no space for more than 2, at most 3 elite specs. The only thing future especs could do past this point is offer the same exact things, but with a different aestethics. So, basically reskins. That might actually work for people that do like the role the espec occupies, but do not like its aestethics.

 

Besides, i don't really believe Anet will make any more especs, so i think this point is moot.

 

 

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Poll needs the real answer as an option -

 

#ANET will nerf everything just in time to sell us Xpac 3 with new overpowered specs.

 

But in reality, I think it all needs nerfs. These nerfs need to make kitten sense, but it all needs to be toned down, and then the mobs to match. And everything also needs to be simplified so they can't keep running into these situations where they can't act for 3-8 months on a balance fix cause they can't figure out where the OP synergies are coming from. Why do we need all these attributes? Here's what we need;

 

**Power**

**Toughness**

**Vitality**

**Effect** (this covers condi duration, boon duration, and healing power. Condi damage will DIE because why does Condi get a stat that makes it better when we don't get something that makes Boons more effective, just lasting longer. Condi should be a bonus on good power hits connecting when you trick out your opponents to use dodges and defense early, not a apply all this crap and outlast playstyle)

 

Then change all the armor/weapon/trinket stat sets to be from 2-4 attributes. Only Celestial would get all 4. Some stat sets would go away cause of lack of combinations.

 

**GOOD!** Over 3/4 of the current sets are traps that are useless anyway.

 

Then it gets a lot easier to balance, and new players don't fall into trap stat sets.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

I'm confused at the poll options. Won't buffing core specs also buff elite specs? Elite is only one specialization, the other two are core

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Yes, having a new elite spec that is basically core on steroids, without changes to its gameplay and aestethics would be a good choice as well.

 

I wish ArenaNet would do something like this. Making the most general trait line exclusive to core (Arcane for Elementalists, Soul Reaping for Necromancer, and so on), and then balancing core so it would work as a kind of elite specialization on its own.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I'm confused at the poll options. Won't buffing core specs also buff elite specs? Elite is only one specialization, the other two are core

Depends how it's done. They've already tried one option with revenant that didn't buff elites (adding core-specific f5). Modifying core shroud for Necro is another way it could be done.

It doesn't work for especs where the espec class mechanic is not a change, but straight upgrade (tempest overload) though

 

[Genesis.7864]

If they want true balance and separation between each core and elite the best option here is to have completely new traitlines upon choosing an elite or core traitline.

The elite and core traitline should be the top option (middle and bottom cannot be chosen yet) to be selected first.

The 2nd and 3rd traitlines unlock depending on your specialization (core / HoT / PoF).

 

If you want a healer: go Druid. It won't do much damage but it'll be one of the best for that and have no traitlines for core so they cannot be mixed

Chosen a Scourge? Cool! This works on only condi, boonstripping and convert conditions on allies into barriers as well as some life force into barrier. Though this is a bit OP. And I think I'd get a lot of hate for this but why not pick one or the other? Not both. Having both is like when Chrono had both tank and dps or dps and support. Anet didn't like that. I don't see why they like this.

Soulbeast? Alright now there should be no traits to increase power and have different traits to trade-off for either condi duration, condi damage or even mitigate condition seeing as it specializes in this. This would be the go-to for condi.

Chrono? Tank? Maybe? Not so sure anymore since the last patch. This elite is an absolute MESS! Idk what Anet wants its role to be anymore aside from a PITA to play. What anet should do is develop this more into a tank roll as in give it its Diversion and IP back but remove its high damaging skills and damage traits. Focus more on +toughness in exchange for precision and power. Give it some better boon sharing too and this will be the perfect raid tank!

Spellbreaker? Here's where it'll get interesting. Imagine this profession used in pvp. If timed properly: it only does good damage if it interrupts its enemies or absorbs damage done to it and reflect them back to the attacker. Traits should include trade offs for vitality to get more counter damage and similar options.

 

So you're seeing where this is leading, I hope

 

Obviously this is a long shot and will easily cut the ties between core and elite specs. But having to make loads of new traits to go well with the elite specs and to balance them on top of it.

The plus side is this will be a lot of work and open up new opportunities to choose a specific role playstyle.

You'll have say 2-3 different viable healing builds or support or tank, etc.

 

It beats nerfing elites and beats buffing core which buffs elites. This will keep them segregated and MUCH easier to manage in the longrun.

[Ashantara.8731]

Add an elite spec for each profession to the core game instead of nerfing the other elite specs. Problem solved.

[Genesis.7864]

Yep tl;dr: have all new traitlines (modified versions of core traitlines) for each of the elite specs.

So this way changes to core will not affect elite and vice versa. Problem solved.

 

 

Example: nerf shield on Chrono and have a new traitline where one set of majors refer to how the shield functions. I.e. Top trait gives alacrity 2x. Middle trait gives quickness 2x and bottom trait gives a 1.5 second stun instead of 1 second.

No trait? Well then the shield behaves differently where it grants both alacrity and quickness but only once each and a 0.5 second stun.

Tradeoffs!

 

This can be done for every profession to make them more unique and open up a mass amount of new builds.

 

This could also apply as say a new core elite too. Just please quit nerfing the elites. It's making the game seriously unfun to the point I haven't been logging in much lately. It's beginning to feel like a chore to do anything whereas before it was enjoyable.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Genesis.7864" said:

> Yep tl;dr: have all new traitlines (modified versions of core traitlines) for each of the elite specs.

> So this way changes to core will not affect elite and vice versa. Problem solved.

 

 

That is a lot of work, and not to mention a nightmare for ANet to keep up with all the changes for each one separated. To do something like that they would almost be forced into "fire and forget" mode on elite's, release and fix/change for X months, and then just call it "good enough" and never change it ever again. It would simply take too much work to update and fix on core (5 trait lines) + 2x elites (6 trait lines each), all with slight differences, and thus treated as separate traits/traitlines.

 

At that point, I think it would be much easier to just say "Equip Dragon Hunter in slot 1, pick any 2 of: Zeal, Radiance, Valor for the last 2 slots." Would accomplish the same in a way that would create much less work for ANet, they only need ot balance the elite's around a more limited amount of trait-lines, and they can use which trait-lines are allowed to eat elite to balance them or set them into roles.

[Genesis.7864]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"Genesis.7864" said:

> > Yep tl;dr: have all new traitlines (modified versions of core traitlines) for each of the elite specs.

> > So this way changes to core will not affect elite and vice versa. Problem solved.

>

>

> That is a lot of work, and not to mention a nightmare for ANet to keep up with all the changes for each one separated. To do something like that they would almost be forced into "fire and forget" mode on elite's, release and fix/change for X months, and then just call it "good enough" and never change it ever again. It would simply take too much work to update and fix on core (5 trait lines) + 2x elites (6 trait lines each), all with slight differences, and thus treated as separate traits/traitlines.

>

> At that point, I think it would be much easier to just say "Equip Dragon Hunter in slot 1, pick any 2 of: Zeal, Radiance, Valor for the last 2 slots." Would accomplish the same in a way that would create much less work for ANet, they only need ot balance the elite's around a more limited amount of trait-lines, and they can use which trait-lines are allowed to eat elite to balance them or set them into roles.

 

Too much work is what they're doing right now. They're in a long project to rethink each profession and try to rebalance the core around the elites. It's like juggling between the two and so they're pretty much going to throw elites far off balance from the core builds.

When that happens, I wonder how easy raids and t4s will be.

I'm not looking at this simply at pvp. I'm looking at this problem as a whole between all gamemodes and content. The way they're going about it is pretty sickening. I just seriously hope that they are aware of what they're doing.

[Yasi.9065]

Nerf power creep. Make playing above average worth it again.