Mirage is the new scrapper but... with a lot more damage

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> > @"Hex.8714" said:

> > sustain and survival go hand in hand, mirage has plenty of boons, invul and evades on top of double chaos storm. Also while the enemy is perma immob and dazed they cant attack back obviously. Mirage is broken beyond belief, there needs to be emergency nerfs asap

>

> yeah its why i said its like old scrapper because of its sustain

 

sustain is survivability. survivability is not always sustain.

every thumb is a finger, not every finger is a thumb.

if you shrek mirage for 16k, leaving him at 4k hp. he wont miracously heal up to full.

[CntrlAltDefeat.1465]

To Chime in here politefully,

I am a returning player from 2.5-3 years. A lot of the nay sayers are true. A lot of the counter argument is by players who are deeply rooted in GW and simply view it has normal, or as manageable. I like gw2, but its PvP is simply not defensible. As a returning player I am seeing way too many issues with PvP. However to keep this discussion on topic, mirages are not well designed. The ability to give a profession the ability to daze, stunlock, condi-bomb, blink, AoE drop and create a load of screen clutter and particle effects is giving that profession an overdose of mechanics that should be used sparingly at best, or is simply allowing them to play god for a season. No matter your support of mirage, you don't get to redefine what gaming wide recognized abilities are. Mirages can disengage. Anything that allows to be caught in battle, and now your not in battle, is a disengage, even if you think it means something else in gw2. Their mobility is average for certain, but so is every other build that is off meta in any game. Whilst this is not the role of mirage to cover the map quickly, this only underlines it is not a big chink in their armour.

However the issue isn't limited to mirage. Upon returning I ve played against holo builds, reapers, ele's where their build is not user engaging. They don't need to actively live combat. They simply keep the skill rotations going and it will bull doze lesser players, be irritating to experienced players, and pro players will +1 these builds because they are aware of how insanely annoying they can be to deal with quickly.

Overall, looking at PvP with fresh eyes, the design team has fully invested in builds that will carry the average player. The game, in my opinion, is not supportive of live play and thinking on ones feet. You simply learn what animations hurt the most, avoid those, then let you're over engineered build do what is does. The only live play i can see that still exists is map awareness and where your +1 situations are.

In a nut shell, I don't wanna hate on the game, I did enjoy the new content, but with fresh eyes it is all too apparent why the Pvp sector of the game is at the lowest numbers I have seen with my history of anet as a company, and I can see why the forums are filled with general salt and spite.

PvP is just not fun. The mirage is simply the poster child of what is currently joyless about the state of the game. Too many stackable mechanics that allow for 1-2-3-evade-4-5-6 play styles. (also good luck to any player outside EU or NA..a 200+ ping in this game is now certain defeat. If you don't interrupt a professions colour by numbers offense, you either run, or take the stomp despite playing tactically. That is where Pvp is currently at.)

[Sovari.7246]

Very tough to beat especially with a decent condi thief thus ensues toxic pointing fingers type matches are happening quite often now

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"CntrlAltDefeat.1465" said:

> To Chime in here politefully,

> I am a returning player from 2.5-3 years. A lot of the nay sayers are true. A lot of the counter argument is by players who are deeply rooted in GW and simply view it has normal, or as manageable. I like gw2, but its PvP is simply not defensible. As a returning player I am seeing way too many issues with PvP. However to keep this discussion on topic, mirages are not well designed. The ability to give a profession the ability to daze, stunlock, condi-bomb, blink, AoE drop and create a load of screen clutter and particle effects is giving that profession an overdose of mechanics that should be used sparingly at best, or is simply allowing them to play god for a season. No matter your support of mirage, you don't get to redefine what gaming wide recognized abilities are. Mirages can disengage. Anything that allows to be caught in battle, and now your not in battle, is a disengage, even if you think it means something else in gw2. Their mobility is average for certain, but so is every other build that is off meta in any game. Whilst this is not the role of mirage to cover the map quickly, this only underlines it is not a big kitten in their armour.

> However the issue isn't limited to mirage. Upon returning I ve played against holo builds, reapers, ele's where their build is not user engaging. They don't need to actively live combat. They simply keep the skill rotations going and it will bull doze lesser players, be irritating to experienced players, and pro players will +1 these builds because they are aware of how insanely annoying they can be to deal with quickly.

> Overall, looking at PvP with fresh eyes, the design team has fully invested in builds that will carry the average player. The game, in my opinion, is not supportive of live play and thinking on ones feet. You simply learn what animations hurt the most, avoid those, then let you're over engineered build do what is does. The only live play i can see that still exists is map awareness and where your +1 situations are.

> In a nut shell, I don't wanna hate on the game, I did enjoy the new content, but with fresh eyes it is all too apparent why the Pvp sector of the game is at the lowest numbers I have seen with my history of anet as a company, and I can see why the forums are filled with general salt and spite.

> PvP is just not fun. The mirage is simply the poster child of what is currently joyless about the state of the game. Too many stackable mechanics that allow for 1-2-3-evade-4-5-6 play styles. (also good luck to any player outside EU or NA..a 200+ ping in this game is now certain defeat. If you don't interrupt a professions colour by numbers offense, you either run, or take the stomp despite playing tactically. That is where Pvp is currently at.)

 

I agree, fighting tank druid/ele just makes me want to leave the node and let them have it.

But when it comes to lags there are classes that screw you over WAY harder, actually preety much every class does it.

GL dodging bullcharge+slicing on 200ping. you blink, miss it and boom 6k+9k and you are dead.

As for disengage, preety much every single class has a form of it. and we cant throw mirage in becouse there are many variation, current one has a shit tier one, in blink 1200 teleport and thats it. calling this top tier is just silly.

I agree with most points you make, what i would like to add is dislike of rock,paper,scisors matchups.

Fighting a warrior is preety even fight, same with power vs condi mirage. but then there is thief where you literarly can not win. and then you fight reaper or scourge and you just feel like you bully a child.

[ZhouX.8742]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> > > > > > It seems like alot of people rerolled to mirage after the patch since it can effectively hold 1v2s like scrapper did but on top of that it can actually kill people unlike scrapper that could not kill anything unless you stood right next to them and face tanked everything. Now the all the power DPS builds have been nerfed, that was an indirect buff to mirage that was already top tier in 1v1s but couldnt carry team fights as hard as a power class but now it can actually team fight aswell which dosent seem balanced considering all the classes have trade offs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rev/scourge for example are strong team fighters but weak in 1v1 while soulbeast/ weaver/spellbreaker are strong in 1v1 but weak in team fights but mirage can do everything on top of having top tier mobility/ disengage , CI and daze mantra which dosent have a cast time and has 1200 range.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mirage has too much of everything now after other specs got tuned down, theres no trade offs when playing mirage compared to other specs and its really hard to counter aswell since most of the skills are not telegraphed. The only other spec as strong as mirage is holo but holo is telegraphed, and dosent apply confusion/torment which basically dont allow you to move your character which is another bad design of the class considering PvP is supposed to be about actively reacting to abilities and not the opposite which is how mirage is played and how mirage forces you to play against it since you cant move or use anything when you have torment/confusion.

> > > > >

> > > > > ill take the bait

> > > > > current meta CI mirage doesnt have top tier mobility.

> > > > > current meta CI mirage cant hold nodes 1v2 against players of same skill level.

> > > > >

> > > > > take a timer, make a meta warrior,thief,mirage,boonbeast. and time how long it takes for each to move from point 1 to point 2, then from point 1 to point 3.

> > > > > you will be suprised how kitten slow cirage can be compared to others.

> > > >

> > > > mobility has almost nothing to do with side noding, mirage isn't a decapper. it sits and baits people to side node , literally the role of mirage.

> > > >

> > > > * boonbeast is really the only one, but mobility isn't what makes boonbeast strong, it's.... well, boon uptime and power dmg with might + demolisher (sometimes paladin's amulet) tank. mobility just helps them to roam, and I would consider boonbeast more of a roamer than a side noder so it's understandable to have the mobility over a side noder (even though again, isn't what makes boonbeast good).

> > > > * thief is a decapper / 1upper and should never be sitting on a node waiting to defend it (this is basic pvp knowledge)

> > > > * holo has 2 in photon to maneuver around the map accordingly , holo's power isn't in it's mobility, it's in it's toolkit of high survivability and burst dmg while maintaining prot making it a good dueler/noder.

> > > > * spellbreaker has mobility in gs and if you want to burn a bull's charge sure , but again, is not what makes it a good side noder.

> > > >

> > > > You just fail to grasp what constant or consistent mobility uptime means for a class within it's concept of roles. High mobility really only is beneficial for thief and maybe necro for chases (hence speed rune).

> > >

> > > OP said that mirage has top tier mobility/ disengage. which is incorrect.

> > > Mirage HAS good disengage, but nothing compared to other sidenoders, good luck killing spellbreaker if he doesnt feel like fighting, he will stonewall for 30s, hit you for 10k, flip you off and dash 10 times away from you. THIS is top tier mobility/disengage. not 1200 range blink and thats it.

> > >

> > > As for sustain from mirage, Mirage has Regeneration and healing skill, thats it. nothing compared to other classes that pull heals out of their kitten. Survi of mirage comes from blocking/dodging not from sustaining. If you wanna get mirage nerfed at least point on the right things, otherwise devs will nerf "sustain" for less regeneration or nerf healing skills. And personally dont think that one last core mesmer can take another kick in the groin like that.

> >

> > "As for sustain from mirage, Mirage has Regeneration and healing skill, thats it."

> >

> > Then you are bad at mesmer if you think that.

>

> or you cant distinguish between survivability and susatain, oh well.

 

They are mutually exclusive to each other, so it's more like you actually don't understand survivability and sustain and how they work together as a defensive in general.

 

"If you get shrekt for 16k you don't just magically heal to full"

 

Blinds exist, distortion exists, aegis exists, reflects exist, dazes exist, stun breaks exist, invis exists, dodges exist, etc .. Healing is not the end all be all to sustain and survivability. These are also forms that allow you to avoid getting "shrekt for 16k" aside from reflects obviously.

 

This is common sense stuff

 

oh well

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

 

> Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

 

Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

 

Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

 

Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

>

> > Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

>

> Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

>

> Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

>

> Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

 

staff 2 is 10s cd for 450 teleport.

blink is 30s cd for 1200 distance

jaunt is 30s cd for 450 distance.

condi doesnt use sword ambush becouse it sucks.

you dont use superspeed talent becouse it sucks.

and shift covers less ground then other classes.

swiftness only from chaos storm ( rng, low duration and 30+cd on the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL) you DONT use it for mobility.

so if you waste EVERYTHING you move 2,5k distance.

and you have 60s,30s,10s cooldowns, no stun breakes, no teleports.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> >

> > > Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

> >

> > Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

> >

> > Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

> >

> > Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

>

> staff 2 is 10s cd for 450 teleport.

> blink is 30s cd for 1200 distance

> jaunt is 30s cd for 450 distance.

> condi doesnt use sword ambush becouse it sucks.

> you dont use superspeed talent becouse it sucks.

> and shift covers less ground then other classes.

> swiftness only from chaos storm ( rng, low duration and 30+cd on the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL) you DONT use it for mobility.

> so if you waste EVERYTHING you move 2,5k distance.

> and you have 60s,30s,10s cooldowns, no stun breakes, no teleports.

 

^This. That's why I said, "contrary to popular belief, Mirage isn't very mobile at all." Mirage being highly mobile is a common misconception derived from weapon combinations no one uses and traits no one uses. And even if they were used, mobility would be average at best.

 

Staff 2, while nice for avoiding attacks and juking opponents, is a backwards TP by the way. So it's not a fluid forward mobility skill.

 

And here's the thing about Jaunt: First, note that it's an _elite_ skill, and arguably the only decent elite skill Mirage has. It's been nerfed both in terms of ammo count (down from 3 to 2) and recharge (up from 20 seconds to 30 seconds). It is also one of very few sources of cleanse on common Mirage builds (1 condition removed per Jaunt). So it's never wisely spammed simply to get around. There are lower tier skills on other professions like Warrior and Holo (not even going to consider Thief since mobility is its signature) that match or exceed Jaunt for mobility, which again, is an elite.

 

Also, the recent update removed Superspeed from Mirage Cloak, further reducing Mirage's forward mobility.

 

In reality, the builds most complained about--Condi Mirage and Chaotic Interruption Mirage--have:

* Blink (mainly used for disengage)

* Jaunt (heavily nerfed, usually saved for cleanse)

* If running Staff (not all c-Mirage builds do), Staff 2 and very RNG-based swiftness from Staff 5 if you want to count that.

* If a c-Mirage is running Axe (not all do since it was nerfed so heavily, and CI builds do not run it), Axe 2 and 3 are very short range forward dash and reposition, respectively. Axe 2 is a risky animation-lock skill that leaves the Mirage open to attack unless partially covered with Mirage Cloak. It must be manually aimed and is easily avoided by anyone running away or changing directions. Axe 3 actually misses its target as much as it lands, particularly if that target is moving because it bases the port on where the target was when activated, not where it's going. It's no Rev Sword 3 or Soulbeast Smoke Assault.

* One thing that wasn't mentioned is Illusionary Ambush (which is usually sacrificed on CI builds to make room for MoD) which some argue acts like a 1200 range port, but its huge RNG factor with no ability to actually determine where you end up (you'd be surprised how often you end up somewhere bad, very bad), makes it a very limited mobility skill at best.

 

And that's it. You're literally looking at 2 sources of reliable mobility that are mainly used defensively, plus a third unreliable one on each build. That's all the two notorious Mirage builds have for mobility.

[praqtos.9035]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> >

> > > Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

> >

> > Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

> >

> > Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

> >

> > Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

>

> staff 2 is 10s cd for 450 teleport.

> blink is 30s cd for 1200 distance

> jaunt is 30s cd for 450 distance.

> condi doesnt use sword ambush becouse it sucks.

> you dont use superspeed talent becouse it sucks.

> and shift covers less ground then other classes.

> swiftness only from chaos storm ( rng, low duration and 30+cd on the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL) you DONT use it for mobility.

> so if you waste EVERYTHING you move 2,5k distance.

> and you have 60s,30s,10s cooldowns, no stun breakes, no teleports.

There is a common thing, everyone who cry about mesmer in general have no clue about the class and tend to lie/overexaggerate, thinking their lie is truth (seems like honestly believe in that)

[BadMed.3846]

Everyone defending mirage is playing the broken class and are scared that they will become useless without OP specs. Very understandable as these players have been abusing this spec for long and lack general skills and abilities to play any other build or class. Rather than teach others how to play, I suggest you learn to play a fair game yourself.

Mirage is utterly broken and it needs nerfs urgently. It's simple as that.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> Everyone defending mirage is playing the broken class and are scared that they will become useless without OP specs. Very understandable as these players have been abusing this spec for long and lack general skills and abilities to play any other build or class. Rather than teach others how to play, I suggest you learn to play a fair game yourself.

> Mirage is utterly broken and it needs nerfs urgently. It's simple as that.

 

i played mesmer for a month, made a warrior, and instantly went from low gold to plat 2, without knowlage of any abilities, by mashing random buttons.

 

btw I admire your dedication to whining on mesmer. People are less devoted to their religions then you are to complaining about mirage. :disappointed_relieved:

[BadMed.3846]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > Everyone defending mirage is playing the broken class and are scared that they will become useless without OP specs. Very understandable as these players have been abusing this spec for long and lack general skills and abilities to play any other build or class. Rather than teach others how to play, I suggest you learn to play a fair game yourself.

> > Mirage is utterly broken and it needs nerfs urgently. It's simple as that.

>

> i played mesmer for a month, made a warrior, and instantly went from low gold to plat 2, without knowlage of any abilities, by mashing random buttons.

>

> btw I admire your dedication to whining on mesmer. People are less devoted to their religions then you are to complaining about mirage. :disappointed_relieved:

 

I admire your dedication to float stories simply to make Mesmer look like the weakest class in most miserable state. I'm not religious but I like being loud and clear about the mirage mockery.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > Everyone defending mirage is playing the broken class and are scared that they will become useless without OP specs. Very understandable as these players have been abusing this spec for long and lack general skills and abilities to play any other build or class. Rather than teach others how to play, I suggest you learn to play a fair game yourself.

> > > Mirage is utterly broken and it needs nerfs urgently. It's simple as that.

> >

> > i played mesmer for a month, made a warrior, and instantly went from low gold to plat 2, without knowlage of any abilities, by mashing random buttons.

> >

> > btw I admire your dedication to whining on mesmer. People are less devoted to their religions then you are to complaining about mirage. :disappointed_relieved:

>

> I admire your dedication to float stories simply to make Mesmer look like the weakest class in most miserable state. I'm not religious but I like being loud and clear about the mirage mockery.

 

hey, do your thing, its always enjoyable to read what you have to say.

[yusayu.3629]

> @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> It seems like alot of people rerolled to mirage after the patch since it can effectively hold 1v2s like scrapper did but on top of that it can actually kill people unlike scrapper that could not kill anything unless you stood right next to them and face tanked everything. Now the all the power DPS builds have been nerfed, that was an indirect buff to mirage that was already top tier in 1v1s but couldnt carry team fights as hard as a power class but now it can actually team fight aswell which dosent seem balanced considering all the classes have trade offs.

First off, nothing about Mirage was changed in the patch. And no, it wasn't in the top tier for PvP. 1v1s aren't all that sPvP is about, you know that right?

 

Second off, if a Mirage can hold a 1v2 against you and your mate, that's a massive L2P issue. No it can't. Learn when to apply stability and maybe bring projectile reflection. Or AoE damage.

 

> Rev/scourge for example are strong team fighters but weak in 1v1 while soulbeast/ weaver/spellbreaker are strong in 1v1 but weak in team fights but mirage can do everything on top of having top tier mobility/ disengage , CI and daze mantra which dosent have a cast time and has 1200 range.

Oh, no, CI and Mirage with their 4 interrupts (IF you're willing to put your Mantra on CD that is). One of which has an obvious cast time (P5) and can easily be reflected.

 

Btw do you know how stability works? You _do_ hopefully know that if you have stability while the Mesmer dazes you, he doesn't get the CI bonus, right? And Mirage can strip, what, 4 boons? One of those abilities also has an incredibly obvious cast time (Arcane Thievery) and can easily be dodged.

> Mirage has too much of everything now after other specs got tuned down, theres no trade offs when playing mirage compared to other specs and its really hard to counter aswell since most of the skills are not telegraphed. The only other spec as strong as mirage is holo but holo is telegraphed, and dosent apply confusion/torment which basically dont allow you to move your character which is another bad design of the class considering PvP is supposed to be about actively reacting to abilities and not the opposite which is how mirage is played and how mirage forces you to play against it since you cant move or use anything when you have torment/confusion.

 

If you don't have condi cleanse or don't know when to use it, that's really your problem.

 

I can understand that playing against Mirage is unbelievably annoying. I can also understand that you don't want to have to learn to play against specific classes. You wanna press buttons and kill enemies. Sadly that's not how sPvP is supposed to work.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> >

> > > Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

> >

> > Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

> >

> > Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

> >

> > Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

>

> staff 2 is 10s cd for 450 teleport.

> blink is 30s cd for 1200 distance

> jaunt is 30s cd for 450 distance.

> condi doesnt use sword ambush becouse it sucks.

> you dont use superspeed talent becouse it sucks.

> and shift covers less ground then other classes.

> swiftness only from chaos storm ( rng, low duration and 30+cd on the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL) you DONT use it for mobility.

> so if you waste EVERYTHING you move 2,5k distance.

> and you have 60s,30s,10s cooldowns, no stun breakes, no teleports.

 

So you don't answer my question, and instead re-list out what I already did? Many skills, when used for mobility, have trade-offs. I'm most experienced with Engineers so I'll use them as an example. Jump Shot, Acid Bomb, and Elixir X are all used as mobility options, but are also some of our highest damage abilities.

 

You refuse to acknowledge you do have mobility options because you consider using them for mobility as a "waste".

 

I'll re-state my question because it would help any further discussion:

*Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

 

Also, as I said before, simply adding up horizontal distance is a complete waste of time when skills with vertical mobility are involved.

 

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> ^This. That's why I said, "contrary to popular belief, Mirage isn't very mobile at all." Mirage being highly mobile is a common misconception derived from weapon combinations no one uses and traits no one uses. And even if they were used, mobility would be average at best.

 

The day I responded to this thread, I watched the currently most viewed mirage streamer on Twitch (something around 100 viewers). He was using the superspeed trait that you and Leonidrex.5649 both say sucks and no one uses. Guess you're wrong.

 

> Staff 2, while nice for avoiding attacks and juking opponents, is a backwards TP by the way. So it's not a fluid forward mobility skill.

 

I've never heard a good mesmer complain about this. Bind about face and practice. I do this all the time with Acid Bomb.

 

> And here's the thing about Jaunt: First, note that it's an _elite_ skill, and arguably the only decent elite skill Mirage has. It's been nerfed both in terms of ammo count (down from 3 to 2) and recharge (up from 20 seconds to 30 seconds). It is also one of very few sources of cleanse on common Mirage builds (1 condition removed per Jaunt). So it's never wisely spammed simply to get around. There are lower tier skills on other professions like Warrior and Holo (not even going to consider Thief since mobility is its signature) that match or exceed Jaunt for mobility, which again, is an elite.

>

> Also, the recent update removed Superspeed from Mirage Cloak, further reducing Mirage's forward mobility.

>

> In reality, the builds most complained about--Condi Mirage and Chaotic Interruption Mirage--have:

> * Blink (mainly used for disengage)

> * Jaunt (heavily nerfed, usually saved for cleanse)

> * If running Staff (not all c-Mirage builds do), Staff 2 and very RNG-based swiftness from Staff 5 if you want to count that.

> * If a c-Mirage is running Axe (not all do since it was nerfed so heavily, and CI builds do not run it), Axe 2 and 3 are very short range forward dash and reposition, respectively. Axe 2 is a risky animation-lock skill that leaves the Mirage open to attack unless partially covered with Mirage Cloak. It must be manually aimed and is easily avoided by anyone running away or changing directions. Axe 3 actually misses its target as much as it lands, particularly if that target is moving because it bases the port on where the target was when activated, not where it's going. It's no Rev Sword 3 or Soulbeast Smoke Assault.

> * One thing that wasn't mentioned is Illusionary Ambush (which is usually sacrificed on CI builds to make room for MoD) which some argue acts like a 1200 range port, but its huge RNG factor with no ability to actually determine where you end up (you'd be surprised how often you end up somewhere bad, very bad), makes it a very limited mobility skill at best.

>

> And that's it. You're literally looking at 2 sources of reliable mobility that are mainly used defensively, plus a third unreliable one on each build. That's all the two notorious Mirage builds have for mobility.

 

You keep qualifying your mobility options with things like "reliable", "risky", "limited", "nerfed". Regardless of your difficulties in using them, they are still mobility options. Every class has bugs and risks associated with theirs. As I said above:

 

You refuse to acknowledge you do have mobility options because you consider using them for mobility as a waste, or too difficult/risky.

 

To be clear, I'm not arguing that mesmer has the best mobility. But you are citing mobility as a stand-out weakness when I believe it is solid.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > That's the issue, you are anti mesmer ALWAYS.

> > > >

> > > The issue with you and others like you is simply that you focus more on launching personal attacks than actually staying on topic. My posts may be pointless to you but don't make blatant statements implying what others think. You're not leaders here and you don't represent community views in your posts. Your posts are solely your opinions. Trying to shoot down others who disagree with you is just a pathetic ploy to try and troll others and provoke retaliation. While I was trying to stay on topic, you and your buddies jumped in and it is important that I shed light on your negative credibility. Stop using these childish tactics and grow up.

> > >

> > > Stick to the topic, not to my kitten. Won't take me long to blast a poison field if you stay up there!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How is me stating a fact pointless?

> Fact? Stop making assumptions and stick to topic. Opinions are not facts.

> >

 

Do I get to quote that the next time you are complaining about Mirage or other mesmer builds?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > ^This. That's why I said, "contrary to popular belief, Mirage isn't very mobile at all." Mirage being highly mobile is a common misconception derived from weapon combinations no one uses and traits no one uses. And even if they were used, mobility would be average at best.

>

> The day I responded to this thread, I watched the currently most viewed mirage streamer on Twitch (something around 100 viewers). He was using the superspeed trait that you and Leonidrex.5649 both say sucks and no one uses. Guess you're wrong.

 

So one person using a trait is representative of the majority?

 

> > Staff 2, while nice for avoiding attacks and juking opponents, is a backwards TP by the way. So it's not a fluid forward mobility skill.

>

> I've never heard a good mesmer complain about this. Bind about face and practice. I do this all the time with Acid Bomb.

 

Stating a limitation is not automatically a complaint. I said what it's good for. I also said why it isn't a free mobility skill.

 

> > And here's the thing about Jaunt: First, note that it's an _elite_ skill, and arguably the only decent elite skill Mirage has. It's been nerfed both in terms of ammo count (down from 3 to 2) and recharge (up from 20 seconds to 30 seconds). It is also one of very few sources of cleanse on common Mirage builds (1 condition removed per Jaunt). So it's never wisely spammed simply to get around. There are lower tier skills on other professions like Warrior and Holo (not even going to consider Thief since mobility is its signature) that match or exceed Jaunt for mobility, which again, is an elite.

> >

> > Also, the recent update removed Superspeed from Mirage Cloak, further reducing Mirage's forward mobility.

> >

> > In reality, the builds most complained about--Condi Mirage and Chaotic Interruption Mirage--have:

> > * Blink (mainly used for disengage)

> > * Jaunt (heavily nerfed, usually saved for cleanse)

> > * If running Staff (not all c-Mirage builds do), Staff 2 and very RNG-based swiftness from Staff 5 if you want to count that.

> > * If a c-Mirage is running Axe (not all do since it was nerfed so heavily, and CI builds do not run it), Axe 2 and 3 are very short range forward dash and reposition, respectively. Axe 2 is a risky animation-lock skill that leaves the Mirage open to attack unless partially covered with Mirage Cloak. It must be manually aimed and is easily avoided by anyone running away or changing directions. Axe 3 actually misses its target as much as it lands, particularly if that target is moving because it bases the port on where the target was when activated, not where it's going. It's no Rev Sword 3 or Soulbeast Smoke Assault.

> > * One thing that wasn't mentioned is Illusionary Ambush (which is usually sacrificed on CI builds to make room for MoD) which some argue acts like a 1200 range port, but its huge RNG factor with no ability to actually determine where you end up (you'd be surprised how often you end up somewhere bad, very bad), makes it a very limited mobility skill at best.

> >

> > And that's it. You're literally looking at 2 sources of reliable mobility that are mainly used defensively, plus a third unreliable one on each build. That's all the two notorious Mirage builds have for mobility.

>

> You keep qualifying your mobility options with things like "reliable", "risky", "limited", "nerfed". Regardless of your difficulties in using them, they are still mobility options. Every class has bugs and risks associated with theirs. As I said above:

>

> You refuse to acknowledge you do have mobility options because you consider using them for mobility as a waste, or too difficult/risky.

 

I acknowledged every mobility option on the common builds people complain about, and discussed them quite objectively. I even discussed one you didn't. Never said anything about my personal difficulty, so not sure where you're coming from with that.

 

I also never said there are no mobility options. Just that mirage is not as mobile as many people think. I also explained why simply listing skills as you did in attempt to suggest great mobility is misleading. Limitations, tradeoffs, and the sacrifice of important abilities like cleanse when using a skill only for mobility _are_ important considerations in evaluating a build's effective mobility. Not sure why you think otherwise.

 

> To be clear, I'm not arguing that mesmer has the best mobility. But you are citing mobility as a stand-out weakness when I believe it is solid.

 

Its mobility lags behind that of comparable duelists. It's indeed a relative weakness. To be clear, I never said mirage has no mobility options (that's you putting words in my mouth). I said mirage is not nearly as mobile as many people (yourself apparently included) think.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > To be fair survivability contributes to sustain. If I have to heal 40% less often but have 25% less heal regen I come out ahead.

> >

> > I think the biggest issue when fighting CI Mirage is that anyone with low stability and lacking sufficient cleave is going to seriously suffer in an even fight. You need some form of cleave against condi Mirage because of the way extra condi is applied from clones. In team fights that cleave leaves Mirage vulnerable unless played more carefully or against weaker players.

> >

> > Sustain is also an issue because you need to reach the clones and then the Mesmer. Currently, the interrupt plus immobilize really is key to this builds ability to sustain both in terms of survival and avoiding losing clones to cleave.

> >

> > Tldr: Cut the interrupt Immobilize to a reasonable level and a lot of issues are solved.

>

> mirage honestly needs a big changes, IH should be baseline and dmg of it nerfed by 80-90%, condi from clones should be halved on autos and immob on interrut shouldnt scale with condi duration. that way it doesnt screw over power mirage, ofc there would be compensation needed.

 

If we're going to drastically cut clone-based damage, the only way to compensate is to increase player damage. That puts the player in more direct control over their outgoing damage and also removes an aspect of counterplay consisting of killing clones to diminish mesmer damage output.

 

As much as people dislike the idea of clones doing damage, this is no different from how Ranger damage is split between the player and the pet. Shift the AI's damage and perks to the player and you get things like Soulbeast that people also find too strong in some cases. This might be a "be careful what you wish for" scenario.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> traits no one uses

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > He was using the superspeed trait

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> no one uses

 

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > you're wrong.

 

I don't have stats to make claims for the majority of players and neither do you. You talk as if things are absolutes, then qualify your original statements when you're caught being wrong.

 

> Stating a limitation is not automatically a complaint. I said what it's good for. I also said why it isn't a free mobility skill.

 

What is a free mobility skill? Most if not all things require a certain weapon, slot, or have alternative, non-mobility effects.

 

> I acknowledged every mobility option on the common builds people complain about, and discussed them quite objectively.

 

Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? And they weren't complaining, they were objectively stating limitations.

 

> I even discussed one you didn't.

 

Want a cookie?

 

> Never said anything about my personal difficulty, so not sure where you're coming from with that.

 

So when you complained, no sorry, "stated the limitations" of staff teleport, that was based on some collective mesmer experience that you're in tune with? None of your personal experience? Sure. Like I said, never heard a good mesmer complain about it.

 

> I also never said there are no mobility options. Just that mirage is not as mobile as many people think. I also explained why simply listing skills as you did in attempt to suggest great mobility is misleading. Limitations, tradeoffs, and the sacrifice of important abilities like cleanse when using a skill only for mobility _are_ important considerations in evaluating a build's effective mobility. Not sure why you think otherwise.

 

Sure, every skill has at least some cost, not just Mesmers'. This is why I asked this 3 times now:

* Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

 

> Its mobility lags behind that of comparable duelists. It's indeed a relative weakness.

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > ^This. That's why I said, "contrary to popular belief, Mirage isn't very mobile at all."

 

Which is it, relatively non-mobile or generally non-mobile? Relative to what comparable duelists? All mirage builds aren't mobile? Relative to thief, every class has weak mobility.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"bethekey.8314"

I'm going to keep this response brief as I sense your communication style is unnecessarily adversarial and borderline ad hominem. Not the kind of discussion I care to engage in, to be honest.

 

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > traits no one uses

> > > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > He was using the superspeed trait

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > no one uses

>

> > > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > you're wrong.

>

> I don't have stats to make claims for the majority of players and neither do you. You talk as if things are absolutes, then qualify your original statements when you're caught being wrong.

 

When I said weapons and traits "no one uses", it was indeed intended hyperbole, a manner of speech. I'd like to think that was obvious but if you want to construe it literally in order to challenge it on the basis of a single exception, you're free to do so. Just know it doesn't lend your position much support.

 

> > Stating a limitation is not automatically a complaint. I said what it's good for. I also said why it isn't a free mobility skill.

>

> What is a free mobility skill? Most if not all things require a certain weapon, slot, or have alternative, non-mobility effects.

 

What I mean by "free mobility skill" is you press or click one button and you move to a pretty precise position. There are many such skills in the game. Staff 2 is not one of them.

 

> > I acknowledged every mobility option on the common builds people complain about, and discussed them quite objectively.

>

> Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? And they weren't complaining, they were objectively stating limitations.

 

Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? Did you subjectively determine mine are not? Can you make more pointless statements?

 

> > I even discussed one you didn't.

>

> Want a cookie?

 

Translates to: not someone interested in a civil debate.

 

> > Never said anything about my personal difficulty, so not sure where you're coming from with that.

>

> So when you complained, no sorry, "stated the limitations" of staff teleport, that was based on some collective mesmer experience that you're in tune with? None of your personal experience? Sure. Like I said, never heard a good mesmer complain about it.

 

There's that tone again. Demeaning sarcasm doesn't really have any place in a rational discussion. Since you like quoting me, show me where I did this with you (not that it would justify you doing the same).

 

Now if I may offer you a suggestion: You really shouldn't be so technical and dwell on semantics as it implies lack of merit. It really doesn't come off well--to anyone.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> I'm going to keep this response brief as I sense your communication style is unnecessarily adversarial and borderline ad hominem. Not the kind of discussion I care to engage in, to be honest.

>

> Now if I may offer you a suggestion: You really shouldn't be so technical and dwell on semantics as it implies lack of merit. It really doesn't come off well--to anyone.

 

Proceeds to respond to everything but the thread-relevant question I've posted three times. What a joke.

 

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > What is a free mobility skill? Most if not all things require a certain weapon, slot, or have alternative, non-mobility effects.

> What I mean by "free mobility skill" is you press or click one button and you move to a pretty precise position. There are many such skills in the game. Staff 2 is not one of them.

 

You've said it's not "fluid" and "free", none of which correspond to your new definition. Staff 2, unless I'm mistaken, always moves you backward the same distance every time. That's precise. What would you like to change it to now?

 

> > Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? And they weren't complaining, they were objectively stating limitations.

> Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? Did you subjectively determine mine are not? Can you make more pointless statements?

 

Whoosh.

 

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > I even discussed one you didn't.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> challenge it on the basis of a single exception, you're free to do so.

 

Lol.

 

> There's that tone again. Demeaning sarcasm doesn't really have any place in a rational discussion. Since you like quoting me, show me where I did this with you (not that it would justify you doing the same).

 

Sorry, you make it too easy.

 

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > I'm going to keep this response brief as I sense your communication style is unnecessarily adversarial and borderline ad hominem. Not the kind of discussion I care to engage in, to be honest.

> >

> > Now if I may offer you a suggestion: You really shouldn't be so technical and dwell on semantics as it implies lack of merit. It really doesn't come off well--to anyone.

>

> Proceeds to respond to everything but the thread-relevant question I've posted three times. What a joke.

>

> > > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > What is a free mobility skill? Most if not all things require a certain weapon, slot, or have alternative, non-mobility effects.

> > What I mean by "free mobility skill" is you press or click one button and you move to a pretty precise position. There are many such skills in the game. Staff 2 is not one of them.

>

> You've said it's not "fluid" and "free", none of which correspond to your new definition. Staff 2, unless I'm mistaken, always moves you backward the same distance every time. That's precise. What would you like to change it to now?

 

Yeah. And like you said, to actually use it primarily for mobility, you need to "bind about-face and practice". How does that fit my meaning of fluid and free mobility skill?

 

The fact you quibble over even this is why I won't bother diving into this any further with you.

 

> > > Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? And they weren't complaining, they were objectively stating limitations.

> > Did you just subjectively determine your own opinions are objective? Did you subjectively determine mine are not? Can you make more pointless statements?

>

> Whoosh.

 

Great argument.

 

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > I even discussed one you didn't.

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > challenge it on the basis of a single exception, you're free to do so.

>

> Lol.

 

There's no contradiction or hypocrisy here, if that's what you're going for. The fact that I added another possible mobility skill to your laundry list demonstrates my candor and willingness to consider all relevant mobility options. In other words, I brought up something that could support your view that there is plenty of good mobility, something you surely would have included in your list had you thought of it originally. It wasn't some single exception to anything like your YT player. These aren't even remotely comparable. Nice try though.

 

> > There's that tone again. Demeaning sarcasm doesn't really have any place in a rational discussion. Since you like quoting me, show me where I did this with you (not that it would justify you doing the same).

>

> Sorry, you make it too easy.

 

I'll take that as you couldn't quote me using derogatory language and inappropriate personal attacks like you do. Because it's pretty obvious how much you like to extract quote snippets in failed attempts to show contradiction. I think you need to get a new hobby.

 

Good day.

[BadMed.3846]

Mobility skills might be unique in some ways but that doesn't make them less useful or weaker options than others. Phase retreat is rather easy to use with about face and provides excellent ability to disengage when combined with other mobility and stealth skills. Mirage has excellent mobility and disengagement options, only second to a thief.

[bethekey.8314]


 

Simply amazing

[Khalisto.5780]

hhmmm, I dont see mesmer tanking 3-4 ppl in gold and below like scrapper did in almost afk mode

 

Elementalist main before anyone says anything, i can even post my graphs lol.

 

BTW, a lot of ppl reroll to whichever is stronger or cheese after a nerf, I guess all those ppl are going holo next patch, that at the time will be dodging the nerf hammer second time around.