Just remove Kneel entirely?

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Oxygen.5918 said:

> Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.

 

It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage. It's the same concept for the FF14 Blackmage; the long cast times make it immobile while also giving it the ability to hit like a truck making it the second highest dps class in the game. It's the same principle here with the Deadeye. They just need to adjust the numbers some more to make it that way.

 

To those complaining that the kneel shouldn't exist for Deadeye or Thief, my suggestion is don't use it then. Stick with the DD because the Deadeye was built around the kneel mechanic in mind. They are not going to change it because you don't like it.

 

[MakubeC.3026]

Kneel is ok. Devs please disregard.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

>It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage. It's the same concept for the FF14 Blackmage; the long cast times make it immobile while also giving it the ability to hit like a truck making it the second highest dps class in the game. It's the same principle here with the Deadeye. They just need to adjust the numbers some more to make it that way.

 

I understand the theory, but I'm just not seeing the current impact as being worth it for the Deadeye, and I think it might be tricky for them to reach a balance level at which the kneeling *could* be worth it in a game where mobility is as vital as in this game. How do you kneel when the floor is alternating pools of lava? And I wouldn't mind the mechanic of being unable to move while firing high power shots, so long as it *felt* better than the current system, like you could break kneel through simple movement rather than having to hit 5 again. But again, it would be even more preferable if they made it more like the Warrior Burst, where you kneel for the duration of the big shot, and moving cancels the shot, but you don't have to manually toggle the kneel itself.

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> >It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage. It's the same concept for the FF14 Blackmage; the long cast times make it immobile while also giving it the ability to hit like a truck making it the second highest dps class in the game. It's the same principle here with the Deadeye. They just need to adjust the numbers some more to make it that way.

>

> I understand the theory, but I'm just not seeing the current impact as being worth it for the Deadeye, and I think it might be tricky for them to reach a balance level at which the kneeling *could* be worth it in a game where mobility is as vital as in this game. How do you kneel when the floor is alternating pools of lava? And I wouldn't mind the mechanic of being unable to move while firing high power shots, so long as it *felt* better than the current system, like you could break kneel through simple movement rather than having to hit 5 again. But again, it would be even more preferable if they made it more like the Warrior Burst, where you kneel for the duration of the big shot, and moving cancels the shot, but you don't have to manually toggle the kneel itself.

>

 

I was more referring to Oxygen in that post since he is infamously known for hating DE which is getting irritating. I already know your stance on it, so you are good there. :)

[Sobx.1758]

.> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @Sobx.1758 said:

> > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > No. Keep the kneel. Kneel mechanic is going to be the thing that saves the Deadeye spec if they truly intend range to deal melee level damage. I know it is not there yet, but without kneel, A-net would nerf Deadeye's damage even more. Kneel is our saving grace for damage.

> >

> > I think the problem here is that it COULD be 'the thing that saves DE', but right now it isn't.

>

> It is the thing. No could involved. A-net designed the DE with kneel in mind. They just need to bring the damage up and fix some bugs to make it as good as they planned which will take time. Look at DD, it was awful when it first came out, and now it is decent. The same thing will happen here with DE.

 

The "could" is quite obvious here (or at least I thought so), because it clearly isn't what it needs to be yet. So it's not anything that saves DE by any means. But yeah, it can be just like anything else when "it" gets buffed.

[Oxygen.5918]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.

>

> It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage.

>

 

hahahahahahahaha

 

They won't "change it because I don't like it", but they'll certainly buff it because it's undertuned. Mark my words: next balance patch will see a Rifle damage increase for thief.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.

> >

> > It's a tradeoff that comes with having a ranged weapon that deals melee level of damage.

> >

>

> hahahahahahahaha

>

> They won't "change it because I don't like it", but they'll certainly buff it because it's undertuned. Mark my words: next balance patch will see a Rifle damage increase for thief.

 

That's what I want though. I want them to buff it...

[Siltherium.3492]

I think that with gaining Stability while Kneel, granting initiative while Kneel and a bit more of range, coz being still while other classes can overranged you while moving seems so "funny" to me, Kneel would be great.

 

Edit: And would be great if Anet fix the "Not in Sight" and "Obstructed" to targets perfectly visible for you. But that won't happen.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I just want some sort of CC on the rifle (like the other classes that use rifle has) and some way to move to break out of kneel so when I am getting rushed I can just bail.

[kash.9213]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> I just want some sort of CC on the rifle (like the other classes that use rifle has) and some way to move to break out of kneel so when I am getting rushed I can just bail.

 

You can still dodge and then stand right after. Once you learn to put a little drag in pressing it Kneel doesn't get f'ed up in the queue, it's like Flanking Strike in that way. It's probably the skill I use most at the moment, at least right now while I'm mostly using a Shadow Arts build with Silent Scope, it's one of the quicker and safer ways to get around a map, though better for larger WvW maps than smaller map modes.

[Carighan.6758]

> @Umair.7693 said:

> This . Kneel bottleneck the thief mechanism itself.

> Just add 1500 range as a baseline without having to kneel.

 

While it sounds fun, a thief-mobility 1500 range sniper is a bit... extreme, don't you think?

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> > @Umair.7693 said:

> > This . Kneel bottleneck the thief mechanism itself.

> > Just add 1500 range as a baseline without having to kneel.

>

> While it sounds fun, a thief-mobility 1500 range sniper is a bit... extreme, don't you think?

>

 

The trick would be that while they are behaving with mobility, they should not be able to deal max damage. Max damage should come from staying in one place for seconds at a time. But they shouldn't be _prevented_ from moving. Basically the mechanics should be reversed, rather than _forcing_ you to stand still in order to use high damage, they should just _reward_ you for standing still with high damage.

[Barzah.8019]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Even on current condition, Deadeye Rifle could easily stay on stealth mode for 20 second with a short cooldown as well. Imagine doing that without having mobility drawback, loads of people will come here and complain about why they keep hitting air while getting n0scope by a thief that keep changing position.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Barzah.8019 said:

> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

> Even on current condition, Deadeye Rifle could easily stay on stealth mode for 20 second with a short cooldown as well. Imagine doing that without having mobility drawback, loads of people will come here and complain about why they keep hitting air while getting n0scope by a thief that keep changing position.

 

So put more Reveal into the kit so that high damage comes with reduced stealth. I think that a Sniper class should have solid ability to alpha strike from stealth, but it's really a terrible idea to make them a class that can hop in and out of stealth constantly.

[ZyniX.3589]

I am fine with kneeling as it is I just wish I could jump to stop kneeling. I agree standing damage being so low is kind of irrelevant when you can swap to p/p.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but a gaming mouse helps with kneeling a lot on quickness and reaction time. Today, I set the kneel command as num pad multiply sign which was then set to the number 1 button key on my mouse. The difference is night and day from having to hit 5. So if you have a gaming mouse, try doing what I did.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but a gaming mouse helps with kneeling a lot on quickness and reaction time. Today, I set the kneel command as num pad multiply sign which was then set to the number 1 button key on my mouse. The difference is night and day from having to hit 5. So if you have a gaming mouse, try doing what I did.

 

Suggesting people didn't rebind their 5+ keys before...

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but a gaming mouse helps with kneeling a lot on quickness and reaction time. Today, I set the kneel command as num pad multiply sign which was then set to the number 1 button key on my mouse. The difference is night and day from having to hit 5. So if you have a gaming mouse, try doing what I did.

>

> Suggesting people didn't rebind their 5+ keys before...

 

I know some didn't. I normally use the 5 on my other classes because it is not used that much. 5 key is easy to reach for me; it's just that Deadeye requires a lot more use of it. 12345 q,e shift q, shift e is my set up. Having it on the mouse is much easier.

[kash.9213]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

 

> I know some didn't. I normally use the 5 on my other classes because it is not used that much. 5 key is easy to reach for me; it's just that Deadeye requires a lot more use of it. 12345 q,e shift q, shift e is my set up. Having it on the mouse is much easier.

 

Have you tried R key for 5 skill? That one feels natural for me for what the 5 skill usually is, SB 5, Vault, Kneel, CnD, etc.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @kash.9213 said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

>

> > I know some didn't. I normally use the 5 on my other classes because it is not used that much. 5 key is easy to reach for me; it's just that Deadeye requires a lot more use of it. 12345 q,e shift q, shift e is my set up. Having it on the mouse is much easier.

>

> Have you tried R key for 5 skill? That one feels natural for me for what the 5 skill usually is, SB 5, Vault, Kneel, CnD, etc.

 

I use R for auto-run. It has always been that key in any MMO I play, so I got used to it. No point to change it now. Besides, the 5 key is linked to the mouse as well.

[Aomine.5012]

Kneel is an ok mechanic.

What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

 

Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

[kash.9213]

> @Aomine.5012 said:

> Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

>

> Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

 

Then they would have to change Silent Scope or that would be a free and frequent stealth.

[Sobx.1758]

> @kash.9213 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> > What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

> >

> > Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

>

> Then they would have to change Silent Scope or that would be a free and frequent stealth.

 

Silent scope adds ini cost, so no.

Anyway, I don't really care about kneel ini cost, it's low enough.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Aomine.5012 said:

> Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

>

> Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

 

It can not be lowered to under one as it carries with it a condition cleanse which is more then a little useful. Get immobed, double tap kneel and it gone. I would rather pay the 1 ini then to lose THAT benefit.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> > What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

> >

> > Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

>

> It can not be lowered to under one as it carries with it a condition cleanse which is more then a little useful. Get immobed, double tap kneel and it gone. I would rather pay the 1 ini then to lose THAT benefit.

 

What if they just moved the condi-cleanse to the back-dash move?