Just remove Kneel entirely?

[Kastar.6082]

I think Kneel is fine, its a sniper mechanic but I will buff (hard) skills/damage/or boons on kneel stance and I will nerf skills/dmg/boons on standard position. Kinda high risk high reward. it will be hard to play but a hard hitter in pvp and a good dps in pve bosses

[Cameryn.5310]

Kneel is THE dealbreaker for me with the rifle for PVE play. As I've said elsewhere, there is absolutely NO type of PVE play -- soloing, small groups, bounty trains, boss fights, etc. -- where standing still in combat (i.e. kneeling) and using the rifle will produce better DPS than I am able to get as a Deadeye-spec'd dual-pistol wielder. None whatsoever.

 

And I don't just mean because standing still is completely counterproductive in a game with area of effect damage coming from mobs and bosses; I'm also talking the time involved in the kneel and waiting for malice stacks for button 4 is subpar comparatively.

 

I've actually stopped using the rifle completely now.... I play p/p with d/p as an alternate weapon, with Deadeye/Critical Strikes/Trickery as my trait lines. (Sad, because I was so looking forward to the rifle. It's just executed absolutely wrong.)

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Cameryn.5310 said:

> Kneel is THE dealbreaker for me with the rifle for PVE play. As I've said elsewhere, there is absolutely NO type of PVE play -- soloing, small groups, bounty trains, boss fights, etc. -- where standing still in combat (i.e. kneeling) and using the rifle will produce better DPS than I am able to get as a Deadeye-spec'd dual-pistol wielder. None whatsoever.

>

> And I don't just mean because standing still is completely counterproductive in a game with area of effect damage coming from mobs and bosses; I'm also talking the time involved in the kneel and waiting for malice stacks for button 4 is subpar comparatively.

>

> I've actually stopped using the rifle completely now.... I play p/p with d/p as an alternate weapon, with Deadeye/Critical Strikes/Trickery as my trait lines. (Sad, because I was so looking forward to the rifle. It's just executed absolutely wrong.)

 

Only currently P/P provide better dps. We are talking about future buffs on rifle where it would be dealing melee level damage. We are not talking about the current version of it.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Kneel is actually very useful the way it is set up. I've found it to be a pretty god damn handy movement imparement remover, which is cheap. The Free Action is immediate, but you have to suffer the small time it takes to actually crouch down.

 

The flash, freeze, sharpshooter, and that positioning mechanics aren't terrible to deal with in the bounties as a Deadeye with rifle using Kneel. You just need to understand that you need to use it at the appropriate times. Meaning Kneel when the mechanic has been popped, or the mechanic is focusing someone else.

 

The kneel has also produced an interesting behavior I've noticed in WvW. It can actually behave like cover fire. The game's line of sight checks have already proven that they don't go both ways. You can actually fire projectiles from behind a fence or something, and depending on the player elevation they might not be able to hit you. And it also works as a pretty cheeky way to make yourself harder to see if the player doesn't hold down alt, or have enemy name tags on by default.

 

Another fun note is unless a player runs around while holding "Show Enemy name tags", they probably won't notice you if you suddenly hid in a bush, but did not cloak.

 

The kneel provides very cheap access to stealth on two charges. Making it perfect for ambushing without giving away your position to a Gunpowder field from D/P

 

And the Kneel works surprisingly well when chained with a dodge. You can dodge, and trigger the kneel part way through the animation to dissolve some of the time it takes to get down. I've actually used this is Melee range against players multiple times and killed them with it.

 

Edit: Check that, for some reason I never noticed the nameplates over enemy players that is up at all times.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

 

>

> The kneel has also produced an interesting behavior I've noticed in WvW. It can actually behave like cover fire. The game's line of sight checks have already proven that they don't go both ways. You can actually fire projectiles from behind a fence or something, and depending on the player elevation they might not be able to hit you. And it also works as a pretty cheeky way to make yourself harder to see if the player doesn't hold down alt, or have enemy name tags on by default.

>

So all I have to do is mark the target then crouch behind a fence, and all my projectiles will hit the target?

[babazhook.6805]

I also like kneel in that it in essence provides us 2 for one skills across the rifle build. This gives Rifle a bit more variety in usage. Indeed I can see introducing the Kneel mechanic to other specs in the future.

 

As example a Palidan build that uses spear. When you kneel with spear you can gain stability or toughness. (Picture the spears end planted in the ground and the spear facing outwards towards the enemy)

[Barzah.8019]

nop, kneel is the one that actually give rifle great chance of survival

[Ohoni.6057]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> I also like kneel in that it in essence provides us 2 for one skills across the rifle build. This gives Rifle a bit more variety in usage. Indeed I can see introducing the Kneel mechanic to other specs in the future.

>

> As example a Palidan build that uses spear. When you kneel with spear you can gain stability or toughness. (Picture the spears end planted in the ground and the spear facing outwards towards the enemy)

 

That's not true. The 1-3 skills are basically identical across the board, kneeling just buffs them up.The 5 skill is basically wasted, the 4 skill is the only one with two genuine options, so as I noted in the OP, if you just removed the #5, you could split off the 4 into the 4 and 5 slots, and end up with the same number of attacks.

[Zenith.7301]

No.

 

I'm sorry you've gotten spoiled with daredevil's retarded OP mobility. If you want that, play daredevil, it's not like they're still not the supreme +1 class in spvp or the best roamers at disengage/ganking in WvW.

 

Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

 

Just buff the damage consistency instead. Buff the auto, reduce the ramp up on malice. Problem then is then rifle deadeye is just a better version of glass cannon longbow ranger since both classes suck ass for aoe/cleave and no zerg wants them, and the only niche both occupy is sniping squishy elementalists and runners.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> No.

>

> I'm sorry you've gotten spoiled with daredevil's kitten OP mobility. If you want that, play daredevil, it's not like they're still not the supreme +1 class in spvp or the best roamers at disengage/ganking in WvW.

>

> Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

>

> Just buff the damage consistency instead. Buff the auto, reduce the ramp up on malice. Problem then is then rifle deadeye is just a better version of glass cannon longbow ranger since both classes suck kitten for aoe/cleave and no zerg wants them, and the only niche both occupy is sniping squishy elementalists and runners.

 

With all of the damage buffs available you actually do not have to go glass cannon. Valk/Marauders seems to be the meta and that bumps your hp up to 19k.

[Zenith.7301]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > No.

> >

> > I'm sorry you've gotten spoiled with daredevil's kitten OP mobility. If you want that, play daredevil, it's not like they're still not the supreme +1 class in spvp or the best roamers at disengage/ganking in WvW.

> >

> > Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

> >

> > Just buff the damage consistency instead. Buff the auto, reduce the ramp up on malice. Problem then is then rifle deadeye is just a better version of glass cannon longbow ranger since both classes suck kitten for aoe/cleave and no zerg wants them, and the only niche both occupy is sniping squishy elementalists and runners.

>

> With all of the damage buffs available you actually do not have to go glass cannon. Valk/Marauders seems to be the meta and that bumps your hp up to 19k.

 

You will not hit 100% crit reliably with valk/marauder in any remotely realistic setting. I don't like my fights coming down to undesirable damage swings based on the flip of a coin.

 

If something jumps me 1v1 as a longbow non-druid ranger or deadeye, I know I'm dead anyways, so I might as well specialize in what I can deliver instead of trying to be a bit of everything and failing at it all.

 

I can immediatey tell the difference between a 14-16k rapid fire and an 8-10k one from valks, and it has often made the difference in whether the target gets away or not.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

 

It sort of sounds like you're talking PvP, PvP is largely irrelevant. This is about making the class fun to play in the larger game, to make it a new way for people to play the Thief class in PvE that is fun and not as claustrophobic as the current Deadeye. If there are issues with how that works out in PvP, they should be handled purely in PvP.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > No.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry you've gotten spoiled with daredevil's kitten OP mobility. If you want that, play daredevil, it's not like they're still not the supreme +1 class in spvp or the best roamers at disengage/ganking in WvW.

> > >

> > > Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

> > >

> > > Just buff the damage consistency instead. Buff the auto, reduce the ramp up on malice. Problem then is then rifle deadeye is just a better version of glass cannon longbow ranger since both classes suck kitten for aoe/cleave and no zerg wants them, and the only niche both occupy is sniping squishy elementalists and runners.

> >

> > With all of the damage buffs available you actually do not have to go glass cannon. Valk/Marauders seems to be the meta and that bumps your hp up to 19k.

>

> You will not hit 100% crit reliably with valk/marauder in any remotely realistic setting. I don't like my fights coming down to undesirable damage swings based on the flip of a coin.

>

> If something jumps me 1v1 as a longbow non-druid ranger or deadeye, I know I'm dead anyways, so I might as well specialize in what I can deliver instead of trying to be a bit of everything and failing at it all.

>

> I can immediatey tell the difference between a 14-16k rapid fire and an 8-10k one from valks, and it has often made the difference in whether the target gets away or not.

 

Silent Scope/Sniper's Cover gives kneeling skills a 20% crit bonus. Combine that with all of the fury you can get from core traitlines, Perfectionist and Rifle Kneeling 2, that's another 20%. Then if you have Signet of agility equipped, which is a good idea for extra evades, that's another 9% from the passive. With ascended Valk/marauder, I have a 50% crit rate, (41% + SoA) allowing me to get up to a 90% crit rate while kneeling.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > No.

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry you've gotten spoiled with daredevil's kitten OP mobility. If you want that, play daredevil, it's not like they're still not the supreme +1 class in spvp or the best roamers at disengage/ganking in WvW.

> > > >

> > > > Deadeye is supposed to be an immobile glass cannon that's bad at 1v1. Why would anyone not play a class that's good at 1v1 and has 1500 range and the mobility of a thief on top?

> > > >

> > > > Just buff the damage consistency instead. Buff the auto, reduce the ramp up on malice. Problem then is then rifle deadeye is just a better version of glass cannon longbow ranger since both classes suck kitten for aoe/cleave and no zerg wants them, and the only niche both occupy is sniping squishy elementalists and runners.

> > >

> > > With all of the damage buffs available you actually do not have to go glass cannon. Valk/Marauders seems to be the meta and that bumps your hp up to 19k.

> >

> > You will not hit 100% crit reliably with valk/marauder in any remotely realistic setting. I don't like my fights coming down to undesirable damage swings based on the flip of a coin.

> >

> > If something jumps me 1v1 as a longbow non-druid ranger or deadeye, I know I'm dead anyways, so I might as well specialize in what I can deliver instead of trying to be a bit of everything and failing at it all.

> >

> > I can immediatey tell the difference between a 14-16k rapid fire and an 8-10k one from valks, and it has often made the difference in whether the target gets away or not.

>

> Silent Scope/Sniper's Cover gives kneeling skills a 20% crit bonus. Combine that with all of the fury you can get from core traitlines, Perfectionist and Rifle Kneeling 2, that's another 20%. Then if you have Signet of agility equipped, which is a good idea for extra evades, that's another 9% from the passive. With ascended Valk/marauder, I have a 50% crit rate, (41% + SoA) allowing me to get up to a 90% crit rate while kneeling.

 

Another option is of course daredevil runes. I kept my runes form my old daredevil spec when I moved over. You can use Valk and get a very reasonable crit chance kneeling while fury runs and the bonus added. This generally fine for most of th e time. If you get your mark to max stacks just evade back while stealthed and fire, Crit guaranteed. You can also take hidden killer out of CS. Given kneel stealths you will get a crit every time and the followup attacks crit as well. Hidden killer is an excellent trait for DE.

 

In Daredevil runes with hidden killer traited. Kneel fire , crit 100 percent, 2 seconds of followup . Stealth with Elite fire crit 100 percent with 2 seonds of followup, dodge back fire crit 100 percent. Use second kneel fire 100 percent crit, use second elite stealth fire 100 percent crit. I doubt anything lives that long :). All of this can be done with zero perception. Not that i recommend the straegy or that a person train no crit rate but it is an option. This means of course you can also forgo precision and go for toughness AND vitality if you really want to tank using CS, DE and SA wherein you take CIS for all that damage reduction stealthed, while in high armor and taking CIS for "can not be critted while stealthed"

 

High crit rate is not needed in a DE build. There a wealth of options so as to achieve that which leverage stealth and the kneel mechanic.

[Barzah.8019]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> Another option is of course daredevil runes. I kept my runes form my old daredevil spec when I moved over. You can use Valk and get a very reasonable crit chance kneeling while fury runs and the bonus added. This generally fine for most of th e time. If you get your mark to max stacks just evade back while stealthed and fire, Crit guaranteed. You can also take hidden killer out of CS. Given kneel stealths you will get a crit every time and the followup attacks crit as well. Hidden killer is an excellent trait for DE.

>

> High crit rate is not needed in a DE build. There a wealth of options so as to acheive that which leverage stealth and the kneel mechanic

Hidden killer won't work for Rifle DJ since it will give you revealed debuff (even when out of stealth) and the debuff kicks in before you take a shot. The only power build that fit for DE rifle is crit (marauder or assassin) since this weapon relied on both crit rate % and power.

[Cameryn.5310]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> Only currently P/P provide better dps. We are talking about future buffs on rifle where it would be dealing melee level damage. We are not talking about the current version of it.

 

Actually, I think we were talking about "Getting rid of kneel" which is the subject header of this forum thread. My post is an argument in favor of doing something with it because rifle as it currently stands is useless without kneel and limited with it.

[tongpo.3184]

I don't mind the kneel because it makes sense as a sniper because they need the steadiness.

 

However, my issue with the spec is rather how bad standing is. Standing right now is just a waste of initiative. Damage is low and 4 is mostly useless anyways. So if you have the rifle out, you are always looking for a spot to kneel despite all the issues the come along with kneeling. So IMO, its not that kneeling is terrible, but rather, I have to always be in sniper mode, therefore, I am always hindered by its drawbacks because the standing feels worse than needing to kneel all the time.

 

My solution has been, all sniper mode abilities are standard for the spec. 2 and 3 are no longer gimped and instead of a back flip, 4 is DJ, 5 remains as a kneel.

 

Sniper Mode then offers other utilities like: Auto attacks pierce, abilities refund 1 initiative when they hit, increases the chance to add a stack of malice, and range increases to be 100 over a rangers longbow, not just 1500 (because a sniper gun should out range a bow... like it really really should).

 

This way, 5 offers clear upgrades to dps, range, and offers some cleave... but when I am standing, my abilities won't feel like a hindrance. Cause right now, if I have my rifle out while standing - I feel like I need to swap to p/p, or find a place to kneel. When I need to use my abilities, I feel like I am wasting time doing gimped damage just so I can do a crappy back flip that won't save my from anything.

 

On top of all of this, auto attack damage and speed need a boost also. Rifle auto is worse than pistol and unload is more reliable burst at the moment, and that needs to be fixed.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Barzah.8019 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > Another option is of course daredevil runes. I kept my runes form my old daredevil spec when I moved over. You can use Valk and get a very reasonable crit chance kneeling while fury runs and the bonus added. This generally fine for most of th e time. If you get your mark to max stacks just evade back while stealthed and fire, Crit guaranteed. You can also take hidden killer out of CS. Given kneel stealths you will get a crit every time and the followup attacks crit as well. Hidden killer is an excellent trait for DE.

> >

> > High crit rate is not needed in a DE build. There a wealth of options so as to acheive that which leverage stealth and the kneel mechanic

> Hidden killer won't work for Rifle DJ since it will give you revealed debuff (even when out of stealth) and the debuff kicks in before you take a shot. The only power build that fit for DE rifle is crit (marauder or assassin) since this weapon relied on both crit rate % and power.

 

I just tested this to confirm. If you have HK traited and use deaths judgement your Crit rate jumps by 100 percent. Added to that ALL of your other skills will crit with HK. DJ is not something you spam. This means of course with HK rated cursed bullet always crits as does deaths judgement, TRB etc,

 

The trait HK gives 100 percent crit rate for two seconds on being revealed.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

>

> >

> > The kneel has also produced an interesting behavior I've noticed in WvW. It can actually behave like cover fire. The game's line of sight checks have already proven that they don't go both ways. You can actually fire projectiles from behind a fence or something, and depending on the player elevation they might not be able to hit you. And it also works as a pretty cheeky way to make yourself harder to see if the player doesn't hold down alt, or have enemy name tags on by default.

> >

> So all I have to do is mark the target then crouch behind a fence, and all my projectiles will hit the target?

 

Not quite, you need to be high enough that the barrel of the rifle actually pokes over the object, or at least your head. I haven't tested this extensively.

[Zenith.7301]

Just remove the initiative cost of kneeling anyways and the penalty will be far less.

 

I'm surprised kneeling isn't some F skill instead to trigger modes.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> Just remove the initiative cost of kneeling anyways and the penalty will be far less.

>

> I'm surprised kneeling isn't some F skill instead to trigger modes.

 

No, I think the 1 cost has to remain given it condition cleanses. What I think should be lowered is the costs of the Kneel versions of the skills instead. As in DJ to 5 TRB to 3 and so on. This would mean a DJ would cost 6 total INI rather then 7 and would also make gameplay a bit more interesting as in , do I stay kneeled so as to save that 1 ini and try and squeeze another 3rb in after this DJ or do I break off and spend another INI to kneel again.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Cypher.4298 said:

> >Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

>

> How does a Kneeling Deadeye's DPS stack up against a non-Kneeling Berserker with a Rifle?

>

> >Using 0ne INI to clear those conditions is cheaper then expending a dodge. In any case I compared that one ini to Don't stop and to Staff immob removal.

>

> Right, but if you have a staff then you have a Daredevil, and Daredevils just ignore Immobilize completely, so it's a moot point.

>

> >As mentioned kneel/stand is just a double tap which takes just as long as a double tap to do a dodge.

>

> Who double-taps to dodge? And even so, kneel/stand leaves you in the same location you started, if you dodge it also re-positions you and also provides perks. Better. I mean unless they are flinging immobs left and right, it's not an issue.

 

at this moment, people are already raging that deadeyes can 25k+ people, and tbh them sort of numbers should not exist from a single hit, also stop comparing other rifle classes...why cant core engie rifle hit this hard then?

 

. can you imagine the troll/nerf bats that will come into play if deadeye did not need to kneel and was freely able to move around? I also agree that the kneel is what is saving deadeye right now.

[Inoki.6048]

I disagree.

 

I like the kneeling mechanic because it gives additional stealth. My only problem with it is the button has to be pressed again in order to move. Disable that and everything will be fine.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> at this moment, people are already raging that deadeyes can 25k+ people, and tbh them sort of numbers should not exist from a single hit, also stop comparing other rifle classes...why cant core engie rifle hit this hard then?

 

Gimmick edge case outcomes do not indicate that everything is fine. In many cases a class is able to do "one weird trick" which is super impressive, while being absolutely pointless overall. In many cases to achieve an *overall* fun and balanced class, you need to nerf down the absolute peak performance a bit, while raising the averages a bit, so that it performs more reliably across a wide spectrum.

 

[Oxygen.5918]

Immobilizing oneself might be the most stupid thing I've ever seen on a class defined by extreme combat mobility.