Just remove Kneel entirely?

[babazhook.6805]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > > Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> > > What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

> > >

> > > Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

> >

> > It can not be lowered to under one as it carries with it a condition cleanse which is more then a little useful. Get immobed, double tap kneel and it gone. I would rather pay the 1 ini then to lose THAT benefit.

>

> What if they just moved the condi-cleanse to the back-dash move?

 

I am not sure what you mean by the back dash move.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > > > Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> > > > What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

> > > >

> > > > Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

> > >

> > > It can not be lowered to under one as it carries with it a condition cleanse which is more then a little useful. Get immobed, double tap kneel and it gone. I would rather pay the 1 ini then to lose THAT benefit.

> >

> > What if they just moved the condi-cleanse to the back-dash move?

>

> I am not sure what you mean by the back dash move.

 

Standing #4. Back dash. Put the condi cleanse on that instead.

[Dewsitine.3645]

Well, what I would like is that you "crawl" when kneeling which gives you some movement or just have it that any movement key hit would bring you out of kneel while lower the recharge for kneel or keep it at the same time. I also would like to have a passive for kneel where you are 1. AIs take longer to register you as an "enemey" and 2. you have less agro ("camouflage"). I think DE might need some damage and a little tweak to kneel to make it less clunky.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > > > @Aomine.5012 said:

> > > > > Kneel is an ok mechanic.

> > > > > What's not ok is kneel costing initiative, which is a joke.

> > > > >

> > > > > Make it like engi tool kit with no cd and no initiative cost and you have a good strategic weapon.

> > > >

> > > > It can not be lowered to under one as it carries with it a condition cleanse which is more then a little useful. Get immobed, double tap kneel and it gone. I would rather pay the 1 ini then to lose THAT benefit.

> > >

> > > What if they just moved the condi-cleanse to the back-dash move?

> >

> > I am not sure what you mean by the back dash move.

>

> Standing #4. Back dash. Put the condi cleanse on that instead.

 

No, that would be much worse for the thief.

 

That skill currently costs 5 ini. If I have a single chill on me (from cannon fire as example or from an Elementalist) i would much rather spend 1 ini to remove it then to burn off 5 to do so. If I am imobbed by an entangle I would rather just double tap kneel and get it off me for one INI then to burn 5 for the same. There are just too many times I want to remove JUST that one immobilizing condtion because that is all that is on me.

 

Added to this the current system has very nice synergy wih DR. If I get those three conditions applied in some combination I can double tap the kneel to remove then decide on the fly whether or not it worth a DR to get rid of another damaging condition that might now be exposed to a single cleanse.

 

If Immobed in a Field I can double tap kneel , then do a dodge back and out of that field saving my INI for another kneel and immediate DJ rather then have to wait for INI to come back because i burned 5 of it on a DR.

 

What makes UC and Don't stop work so well as traits is the INI and or utility that is preserved in removing those conditions. You can be imobbed twice in a row and still get out of the Immob with dodge on UC. Were this moved from Kneel to DR at that 5 ini cost, the thiefs ability to break immobs and followup with attacks would be severely compromised.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> It occurred to me that the simplest way to fix Rifle would be to remove the Kneel mechanic entirely. Really, what does it add? Outside of the #4 move, all it does is provide minor tweaks to the other abilities. In a highly mobile game, balancing a class around being immobilized is pretty tricky to manage. So instead, just remove it.

 

I disagree with the idea of removing it. Kneel doesn't provide "minor tweaks", it increases the potency of all the skills by increasing the number of shots, damage, projectile speed and range -- that is not "minor".

 

Instead, they should make Kneel a stance. Just like any other stances in the game, it will be a temporary.

 

By making this effect a stance, it will allow DE to move while the Kneel stance is active. The only difference will be is when the DE attacks.

 

If Kneel Stance is active, every attack the DE makes will have the bonuses intended, but they have to stop and kneel before each shot. Every time the DE stopped moving will put them on kneeling position. Of course, Kneel Stance can be canceled at any time -- that should not change.

 

For example; I activate Kneel Stance, so while moving my Rifle Skill set is the normal skills (e.g. Skill #4 is Death's Retreat). If I want Death's Judgement, I have to stop moving. As soon as I stop moving, my Rifle set is the Kneeling skills (e.g. Skill #4 is Death's Judgement). The skill set will again return to normal as soon as I start moving. If I don't want my Rifle skills to switch every time I stop, all I have to do is cancel the Kneel Stance.

 

The Kneel mechanic is great and the only real problem is the immobilizing state.

 

EDIT: Also, the Kneel Stance will auto-cancel if the DE swaps to a different weapon set.

[kash.9213]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> For example; I activate Kneel Stance, so while moving my Rifle Skill set is the normal skills (e.g. Skill #4 is Death's Retreat). If I want Death's Judgement, I have to stop moving. As soon as I stop moving, my Rifle set is the Kneeling skills (e.g. Skill #4 is Death's Judgement). The skill set will again return to normal as soon as I start moving. If I don't want my Rifle skills to switch every time I stop, all I have to do is cancel the Kneel Stance.

>

> The Kneel mechanic is great and the only real problem is the immobilizing state.

>

> EDIT: Also, the Kneel Stance will auto-cancel if the DE swaps to a different weapon set.

 

I like the way Sniper Scope works right now and I can still dodge and heal while in Kneel. That stance idea would actually work but that would mean overhauling rifle and traits. I wouldn't mind going into a kind of color saturation when in Kneel like a less wobbly version of being drunk in game or similar effects and that could help me focus my set up and targeting more anyway. Kind of like going into a less intense Predator vision or night vision, just enough to know quickly without having to gaze down and look closely what stance I'm in.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

>I disagree with the idea of removing it. Kneel doesn't provide "minor tweaks", it increases the potency of all the skills by increasing the number of shots, damage, projectile speed and range -- that is not "minor".

 

Well, I meant it's mostly just number juggling for most of them, rather than being a completely different move. That makes it easier to find a balance point that would be a fair compromise between the two options.

 

>If Kneel Stance is active, every attack the DE makes will have the bonuses intended, but they have to stop and kneel before each shot. Every time the DE stopped moving will put them on kneeling position. Of course, Kneel Stance can be canceled at any time -- that should not change.

 

I could live with that. I'm assuming it would not be a self-immobilize, but more like the "rooted while charging, cancels the attack if you try to move" style effect that many attacks have? Yeah, that'd be fine.

 

I don't like that you have to stop *before* activating moves for it to count as kneeling though. That sounds a bit like how the Springer works, right? hit jump while moving and he hops, hit jump while stationary and he charges but roots? That's very clunky to use reliably, and would be doubly so in combat. I think it would be better as a pure toggle, so basically while it's toggled on, every attack you make tries to root you, but if you hit a direction it cancels the attack and allows you to move instantly. The only way to access the "mobile" versions of the attacks would be to untoggle the stance.

 

 

[Asur.9178]

Kneel is not the problem with rifle.

 

The problem with rifle is multifaceted.

 

1: It's an initiative hog that doesn't do enough for how much and how fast it eats initiative.

 

2: Its overall damage capabilities is pathetic for a kit that requires you to immobilize yourself for maximizing its capabilities.

 

3: It has no AoEs...and well, as mentioned already, its damage is pathetic for single target.

 

4: The entire kit is built around a single skill that has the most obvious tells in the entire game (visual and sound), which is also easily and effortlessly countered by any decent player. Also, let's not forget how much of an initiative hog it is.

 

5: It's riddled with multiple bugs and mechanical problems.

[Snafoo.2869]

I agree;

There's so much focus on Kneel and of course people find it hard to deal with the massive downsides, but for the concept of stealth/high burst/1500 range to get a chance you need some major downsides.

Malice backloading your damage feels odd on thief, because it's always been so frontloaded, but again for balance's sake you can't let rifle just open up with 15-30k hits straight away, no one else would accept it.

 

The initiative however, oh boy, I can't imagine running a rifle-DE build without Trickery anymore, the added initiative is the single biggest impact on sustained dps and still so much of any prolonged fight is just plink, plink, plink auto-attacking so I conserve every precious initiative to be at full when Malice is stacked up, because if you aren't your dps drops to negligent. It's unwieldy and much more boring than it needs to be.

 

- Just like pistol, rifle needs a way to earn initiative, possibly tied into malice.

- at least while kneeling either the Auto or the #3 needs to pierce as well, it doesn't need to be this single target for balance anywhere in the game.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Snafoo.2869 said:

> There's so much focus on Kneel and of course people find it hard to deal with the massive downsides, but for the concept of stealth/high burst/1500 range to get a chance you need some major downsides.

 

It's a major Quality of Life aspect of the class. It makes the class *feel bad,* and nothing about the rest of the class feels *good* enough to compansate for that. I understand the usefulness of the inconvenience from a balance perspective, I just feel that they need to come up with an alternate balancing concept that feels better to use. It's like the opposite of the Mirage, which the Mesmer boards will scream "it's terribly weak" at you until they're blue in the face, and they'd know better than I, but it's a hoot to play either way. A good class is a good combination of "balanced or above in terms of effectiveness" but also "really fun to play." I don't think the Rifle Deadeye is currently great at either.

 

>Malice backloading your damage feels odd on thief, because it's always been so frontloaded, but again for balance's sake you can't let rifle just open up with 15-30k hits straight away, no one else would accept it.

 

But why not, outside of PvP? So long as they can't repeat that performance right away, what's the harm? Maybe they could take out a trash mob, or put a heavy dent into a Vet, but if they then have to either fight it out from a much weaker position than a DD, or reset the fight and return to pick off the next enemy after a bit, either way they're wasting time while the DD is just straight attacking. Again, big packet to start, then little packets for a while, then another big packet, verses a bunch of medium packets that add up to roughly the same amount. What's the problem with that?

[Snafoo.2869]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

 

> It's a major Quality of Life aspect of the class. It makes the class *feel bad,* and nothing about the rest of the class feels *good* enough to compansate for that. I understand the usefulness of the inconvenience from a balance perspective, I just feel that they need to come up with an alternate balancing concept that feels better to use.

 

Feel bad is a very subjective thing of course, they're specifically trying to add a very different playstyle to thief, of course a lot of people drawn to original thief/Daredevil aren't going to enjoy it more.

I on the other hand think it's at the very least an interesting way of trying to balance high range, burst damage in an MMO, YMMV.

So far all the alternate concepts I've seen boil down to straight upgrades, improving Rifle to the extent you wouldn't be able to advocate for the base concept of doing melee level single target damage with it (I don't believe it does that atm, but I'm hopeful they will still make good on that promise). At that point what is the reason of designing an alternative to P/P at all?

Unless you have a different concept that doesn't just require a complete rework (which is obviously never going to happen).

 

What I'm saying is the base concept has merit, but by tweaking initiative a bit (a change that is very possible and not too demanding) it could allow for more sustained damage and a lot more skill use/tactical options outside of 'waiting for full malice and your 2/3 DJ's'. A reasonable request imo.

 

> But why not, outside of PvP?

 

Sure if it was completely separated from Conquest and WvW, but that kind of extreme split doesn't exist in GW2. It's almost like asking for a completely different mechanic in different gamemodes.

 

 

[Kain Francois.4328]

I for one actually like Kneel. It's our profession mechanic, and it has an incredible amount of flavor. We are *supposed* to be a slow-moving sniper! If you want speed, go Daredevil.

 

The problems with it is that it's not actually the profession mechanic... And Rifle is currently in an awkward space.

 

Deadeye needs a bit more polish, but I don't want to see Kneel go. Instead, I want to see new kinds of Kneels, similar how Daredevil has different dodges.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Snafoo.2869 said:

 

> Feel bad is a very subjective thing of course, they're specifically trying to add a very different playstyle to thief, of course a lot of people drawn to original thief/Daredevil aren't going to enjoy it more.

 

I agree that it's very subjective, I just dispute the idea that "this play style is just not for me." I LOVE stealth games. I play them all, Thief, Dishonored, AC, I play stealthy sniper types in games like Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Tomb Raider, Horizon, etc. You give me a good stealthy sniper type, I love that. If they had properly executed on that design, then I don't see any generalized reason why I would not love the result. I just don't feel like what they gave us *does* successfully execute on that concept, and it has to do with how this game is designed.

 

The problem with the stealth sniper in this game is that it's much *slower* than other options, without providing any *advantage* for that sloth. In other games, the advantage is that you can pick off all the enemies before they notice you, resulting in lowered risk. You also have that feeling of power that the enemies just drop in a single hit. The problem in GW2 is that the encounters are designed to be managed in melee, meaning that the survival bonuses to sniping are negligible, and then the damage benefit and ability to kill entire spawns of enemies before they can get to you is much lower in this game. There are basically NONE of the practical benefits of being a sniper character in other games.

 

If they insist on sticking with the "stealthy sniper" gameplay style, then they NEED to deliver on that promise. It needs to do *such* significant damage that it's worth using, where it's a bit slower to set up, slower between actions, but your actions have such massive impact that it's *worth* being slow, and that while the delay between major shots is longer than between staff swings, they each hit so very hard that it balances out, and you end up killing the enemies in the same amount of time.

 

>Sure if it was completely separated from Conquest and WvW, but that kind of extreme split doesn't exist in GW2. It's almost like asking for a completely different mechanic in different gamemodes.

 

Sometimes it's necessary. A fun PvE experience should NEVER be limited by how people would abuse it in PvP. On a class like this, I'd almost like them to basically design it like a see-saw. Make it so that a few of the abilities are conceptually designed for PvE stealth sniper purposes, high impact, huge spikes, things that would be VERY unfun to be on the other end of, and then a few of the abilities would be designed to be good for PvP modes, more leveled off sustainable damage. Then, to balance the difference between the modes, they just nerf-hammer the omega-strikes on the PvP side, and nerf-hammer the more tick-damage attacks on the PvE side, so that basically people don't use those too much in the modes they aren't designed for, but that's fine because the ones they do use are so fun.

 

 

[Sarrs.4831]

Don't delete Kneel. It's an important point of balance; you forfeit your mobility in exchange for damage. If you aren't dealing enough damage it's 100% because of low AA damage.

 

Delete Death's Judgment. Death's Judgment is not a satisfying skill to press. It feels wrong to use the skill before max Malice and even when you use the skill and get a big crit it doesn't feel that great. Most importantly it sits over Death's Retreat; if you want to escape you have to press 5, *then* 4, and it feels awful.

 

Triple Tap is the golden child of Deadeye imo and it should be the main initiative dump. It feels good to use at all Malice levels. It has clear signaling (you shoot three times) so in PvP you don't need a big red line to tell people to dodge. It has an initiative cost that feels reasonable to spend.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @Sarrs.4831 said:

> Don't delete Kneel. It's an important point of balance; you forfeit your mobility in exchange for damage. If you aren't dealing enough damage it's 100% because of low AA damage.

>

> Delete Death's Judgment. Death's Judgment is not a satisfying skill to press. It feels wrong to use the skill before max Malice and even when you use the skill and get a big crit it doesn't feel that great. Most importantly it sits over Death's Retreat; if you want to escape you have to press 5, *then* 4, and it feels awful.

>

> Triple Tap is the golden child of Deadeye imo and it should be the main initiative dump. It feels good to use at all Malice levels. It has clear signaling (you shoot three times) so in PvP you don't need a big red line to tell people to dodge. It has an initiative cost that feels reasonable to spend.

 

Partially agree with you. I like the intent of kneeling, but the execution could use some polish.

 

Standing rifle is slightly too weak. For standing, auto attack needs to be brought up to 0.65. TRB needs to replace Double Tap. Those 2 things would help bring standing DPS to a respectable level without making it too high. Snipers Cover needs to be baseline.

 

Kneeling auto needs to be brought up to a 0.9 multiplier. Spotters Shot needs to be brought up to a 1.25 multiplier, and a backwards roll up to 300 units could replace where TRB was. The part I don't agree with is getting rid of DJ. I think bringing up the 1 and 2 skills would make it feel less like you're just waiting to fire it.

 

Auto attacks should be able to pierce 2 targets as well, but not any of the other skills that don't already.

 

Finally moving, dodging, and jumping should break kneel, but they should leave free action for the condition remove if you choose to use it. I think a lot of the dissatisfaction with rifle is how clunky it is to use like Daredevil was at first.

[Rastel.9157]

I have played my casual Deadeye rifleman for a week now and I enjoy it more and more. *I only play WWW. Not because I do great dmg (I probably dont cause I cant hack a set rotation) but because it looks amazing and has perfect rifle animations both while moving and while kneeling. I would say I fight standing most of the time...80% standing up and 20% kneeling, because one cant kneel too much when you skirmish or following a zerg in www.

 

On of my biggest finds where that Acrobatic line made it possible for me to play like I played with my former main (HTG elixir enginner double pistols)...moving in and out of range in skirmish and zerg, and actually being able to run away with the zerg when the enemy pushes.

 

I dont play much of a stealth game, and my only stealth are those I cant avoid. And personally I am happy about that as I am not really a thief player in any game. I just play thief because it has cool rifle animations.

 

I have also found that I dont liek the malice thing and I will never be able to tell when its maxed etc, so i dont pay atentio nat all. I very seldom use the number 4 attack. My build is focusing on building and maintaining might so that I dont have to rely on malice and attack 4.

 

I would greatly appreciate IF they would allow us to break kneel just by moving! I do not like that we have to press a button to get up in this game! I hate that and i have never ever done that in any game. Mostly in games I hold to kneel, but that does not work in an mmo ofc as you have to have fingers left to actuallu hit other buttons!